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(Tactical Raiding vs Zerg Raiding) how the Trinity, or lack there of, effect it
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I have come to the conclusion that the reason Anet has left out Raiding Dungeons was because it doesn't have a Trinity. Everything has to be zerg and juggle.
Lets take a look at the difference between Zerg Raiding and Tatical Raiding. I will use Rift as an example since its a game many here have played it.
Well can you remember the zone event in Stillmoor were we have to fight the big ugly boss npc with our giant faction bosses? Well clearly that sort of fight can be zerged down. It doesn't require tactics y
To beat, yet it still a raid. But now compare it to the boss fights in the Raid Dungeon, which require team tactics and a Trinity group to beat it.
Which is more harder and more fun; the Zerg Zone Boss Fights; or the Tactical Trinity Boss fights?
Lets take a look at the difference between Zerg Raiding and Tatical Raiding. I will use Rift as an example since its a game many here have played it.
Well can you remember the zone event in Stillmoor were we have to fight the big ugly boss npc with our giant faction bosses? Well clearly that sort of fight can be zerged down. It doesn't require tactics y
To beat, yet it still a raid. But now compare it to the boss fights in the Raid Dungeon, which require team tactics and a Trinity group to beat it.
Which is more harder and more fun; the Zerg Zone Boss Fights; or the Tactical Trinity Boss fights?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
They have many world bosses which scales up to 100 players, so your explanation make no sense.
I played a lot of GW1 and there is actually more tactics in combat there than in most other MMOs even though you have no tanking and only 8 skills.
Sigh... they dont have the HOLY trinity in the standard way, but they still have trinity.
They called it damage, support and control if i recall correctly... and every class can shift between these roles in their own ways. So where you got into zerg territory I have no idea really.
You might say that, even though GW2 differs from any static trinity since you can swap role with a click.
they have no tank and heals. This means there is no way to control powerful mobs in a controlled location such as a instance.Also it may be able to have 100 players, but again going back to the open, guild wars 2's boss battles are similar to the boss fights in Stillmoor, which also take those kind of numbers, but it is far from hardcore or tactical. Its zerging and outlasting the boss
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Why cant you have Both? WoW had realy good world boss fights, which were pretty harsh and required tactics.
But they were much rarer, and required some sort of perp and camping for a successfull kill.
Rift on the other hand is much diffrent, not because they cannot add openworld trinity based bosses, but becasue openworld bosses and raids are a big part, and even a core of that game, from a feature pov it is not diffrent from leveling or questing. And when you require all of preperation and effort put into such a core feature of the game it breaks the fluidity of the game and cause it to majorly suck ass.
while on the other hand former WoW openworld bosses and events when they are a rare race/competition type of an can easily be scripted to require a deep tactic/intense team play with out breaking the flow of the game.
Trinity... Know your job, do your job, be prepared for the unexpected.
Here's how I play the classes in traditional Trinity. (this probably doesn't match other people's techniques)
Tank: Take damage, keep aggro focused on you, try to keep aggro in a cluster so AOE is effective. Any runner that would pull you from your job is someone else's responsibility.
DPS single target: Identify primary target and DPS up to but not greater than the point of pulling aggro off the tanks.
DPS AOE: Work the cluster of aggro being aware that doing too much damage on a mob that tanks don't have full aggro on could pull the aggro off the tanks into the back line.
DPS CC: Watch for breaks in aggro control and CC (stun root) runners keeping them off the back line and preventing them from pulling in adds. Watch for adds that aren't headed for the tanks and keep them off the back line.
DPS Off-tanks: Break from DPS and chase down runners or strays and kite them back to the tanks. Keep in mind that healers are probably not watching your health so keep pots handy. Keep in mind that you're not a full tank and much more than 30 seconds of tanking will probably cause you to be in critical condition.
DPS Off-heal: If the tanks are critical, throw a couple tactically times heals on low HP tanks. Heal should be small enough to bring them off critical but not full heals because the healers are probably already on the lowest tanks and two full heals will overheal wasting critical mana.
Healer CC: A runner not already addressed by an off-tank or CC should be rooted long enough for someone to get to it.
Healer DPS (questionable role): Additional DPS on main target when mana is very high and other healers are in good condition can speed up the pull. In general, avoid AOE unless you are sure tank aggro is very strong.
Healer Off-tank (questionable role): Aggroing a runner or add and kiting it to a tank can help keep the runner from pulling adds or attacking the back line.
Dedicated Healer: Lowest tank gets priority. Anytime a tank get below 50%, only heal tanks. Any DPS that repeated pulls aggro after warning doesn't get heals. If you pull aggro with heals, or if you get adds, kite to the nearest off-tank or DPS for help. Tanking it yourself waiting for help only wastes resources and you probably won't survive it anyway. A dead healer doesn't help anyone.
The way I see it, Trinity done the way I handle it isn't 3 roles, it's 10.
As to which is harder or more fun, trinity or mass zerg? To me a zerg is a trinity group fallen into chaos or unprepared. Zerg = outlast your opponent without coordination. This is hard. The chaos can be fun if you win. If not, an organized group should provide better results because of the coordination of efforts and divisions of responsibility.
Have you played Guildwars?
There are some really hard instances there which you only can complete by working together. Zerging really only works in the beginning, all players must know their place and what to do, a single mistake and you wipe.
Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about, there is a lot more to it.
Try the free GW1 trial for a few days and we discuss this again after that.
Your familiarity with MMOs beginning and ending with WOW seems to really limit your view of these things. Tanks and healers are needed for WOW's bosses because those bosses are designed for that kind of opponent. A boss or end encounter designed for different mechanics or different game physics will be designed, well, rather different from a WOW boss.
I'd suggest checking out games like GW, UO, EVE, Vindictus and Asheron's Call to see some of the other ways that end encounters can be managed when the game design differs from the style WOW uses.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Trinity has nothing to do with how the encounter is structured, because even tho you don't have clearly defined roles for each class, each class i s still able to perform those roles.
Some classes have more and some have less of utility skills that either help them reduce the damage taken or patch up your friends, without making them pure tanks nor pure healers. I'm quite certain that people will, however, become tanks and healers for their guilds based on the skill/weapon setups they will go for.
You can easily have same level of tactics with or without dedicated healers/tanks.
Not uncommon in some games. We used to have an inquisitor in EQ2 doing just that. Of course you have 6 players in the group there so 2 healers is very common there, the same with one healer probably wont work.
But the difference between the trinity and the non trinity is that in the non trinity game you might play all roles during the same combat, you constantly adapt to the situation. In trinity you have one main role and possibly a secondary to fill out in emergency.
Ok, now you're just not making much sense... No, they dont have "tank," they have control. And yes, they do have heals. Its just that the "watch-the-green-bar" kinda healing wont be a valid strategy, on the other hand they got much more proactive support instead.
Then you're saying "...no way to control powerful mobs in a controlled location such as a instance." I just told you: one role is called "control," the healing role is called "support," theres also active dodging, so Im not sure what you're going on about?
The open world bosses with massive amount of players might not work well in a trinity kind of way though, you could be right about that one. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
I agree completely. The issue I have with zerg groups is that unless the group is familiar with each other... 5, 10, 20 or even 40 players trying to create effective tactics not knowing the others would be very difficult approaching chaos.
Heh, then again, most trinity pugs I see reach chaos on the first pull. *grin*
Well that is the biggest problem, the current mindset of most players think that you NEED a tank and that you NEED a healer, and perferably dedicated. So yes you will have people trying to stomp everyone into one of those trinity roles they percieve necesarry to complete a hard encounter.
For the rest I see a system where there isn't the need of the trinity to be more tactics then with the trinity. As with the trinity the only real tactic is you have someone to keep aggro (tank), someone to keep that person alive (healer) and a few that drop the hp of the boss. This isn't much tactic if you ask me.
Next to that you have boss tactics like:
stop DPS when that buff comes up
move out LOS when that boss makes move X
move into melee range when boss makes move X
These tactics however aren't tied to the trinity and can still be used when there isn't a trinity around. So no tactical raiding isn't bound to the trinity, I would even say the none trinity boss fights are more tactical then the ones with trinity.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
Mr. Exposed seems to be rather fixated on zerging. I think he is using the term wrongly, or atleast what he describes is not zerging. ...or I have a different understanding of zerging.
In any case, a game without the holy trinity can be more tactical than a game with one. Like Loke already suggested, Guild Wars is one.
It really shows how entrenched people are to the holy trinity way of thinking when they describe combat without it as "zerging", "untactical" or "chaos". They will have the most trouble adjusting to GW2's combat. Those that have been playing GW1 will have a softer landing, so to speak, because they've already had to deal with combat without the traditional tanking and aggro mechanics.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
So...in your OP you assume that in absence of the holy trinity, the game will surely devolve to zerging. You then give a poll asking if people prefer trinity or zerging.
So critical reasoning 101 here...where is the flaw in this argument? The flaw is that you force your assumption upon us. Your poll doesn't give us a choice of "I don't agree that the absence of a trinity will result in zerging." You just present two options two us that are tailored to give the response you want.
After all, most people would want SOME kind of organized combat over zerging.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Sorry, no, not even close. I finished every mission in every campaign using just henchies -- I finished Prophecies multiple times with only henchies long before it was even called that or there even were heroes (and, please, don't tell me about "hard mode", hard mode is just how it used to be back then, regular is, sad to say, the nerfed version). There are no hard instances in GW, and no reason to work together when you can easily do it with bots.
Zerging is exactly what you do and the only meaningful tactic possible in that game. Doesn't make it a bad game, I played it for two years, but to think there's any need for teamwork in a game where anyone who was even half decent finished it all with bots and a focus fire macro is pretty lol.
The OP is quite correct, but wasting their time. Any remote semblance of sanity where GW2 is concerned is simply not acceptable to the hordes who have decided it is far enough away to be their current holy grail..
Oh but way back when the instances were hard (near the launch) there were few hard missions in the south shiverpeaks and crystal desert which were very hard with henchies. Since then, nearly all missions have been adjusted to be easier. Then they introduced the "hard mode".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What really is the purpose of raiding? Raiding is a cohesive effort of players working as a body to to defeat something to gain something.
To me, the scripted trinity events are more fun because you have to be dependent upon your team. Each player is apart of a working body. I think that takes more skill and talent to perform effectivly and efficiently than a zerg. I think of a zerg like a swarm of bee's (players) just spamming buttons and killing something. Wait, what raiding gameplay is now but with classes..
Anyways, OP, in your thread title you say "tactical" raiding. I would just say improved linear raiding is what we have now. To me, tactical raiding would be more along the lines of different styles of raids. I could see PVE seige raids to be tactical. Seige raids can further improve the holy trinity design by implementing those roles into a battlefield roles that would complement that particular class.
For an example for an obvious strategy, a front line of tanks and a second line of off tanks. Caster dps in the back lines with healers and trebuchets and catapults. And a flank of rogues. Stuff along those lines. To make it not seem linear, the AI behavior would have to adapt depending on certian conditions the raid does or does not fullfill. Perhaps if there are 10 things you must do, you might only be able to do choose what 4 of 5 of those ten things to do to determine victory the best. Just my 2 cents from a game designe perspective.
Riiiight, so holy trinity based games are more tactical becouse kiddies playing dps can do just dps and someone else will tank the mobs for them and when they screw agro someone else will heal their ass ... lol
lies, or the best attempt at exaggeration i have ever seen. the closest reference to zerging in prophecies was having a pre-nerfed MM in a group and only in the beginning areas of the missions as most of the later mission didn't have many corpses to exploit. but even then, you as in your party, is always outnumbered once you leave a city or outpost either in a mission or explorable area. you are not going to zerg your way through any of the campaigns, again not without a MM in a corpse heavy area. the mobs however, will zerg your group if you are not careful, especially with Alesia in your party as most single mob groups you encounter usually outnumber your own group. one wrong move and you will have to fight 2 or more mobs which could easily mean wipe. sure you may have finished the campaigns multiple times with nothing but henchmen, but i know your first encounter to every mission didn't go without fail using only henchmen. there is no single build you can run that will work against every mission. and im pretty sure you couldn't have henchmen focus fire anything with a macro. heros on the other hand, then yes, but we all know you couldn't get them until nightfall. don't try and pass it off as a cakewalk. its not that simple to anyone who has never experienced it, but certainly a lot easier once familar with it just like any other game. the only zerging in guildwars will be the mobs zerging you.
In all honesty if you're looking for "good" pve in GW2 you are looking at the wrong game. You can argue all you like, but the main attraction of GW2 will be pvp, which I personally think the non-trinity based game will make it much more interesting.
just my opinion though.
If in gw2 anyone can heal or tank or dps at the distance of a click..then why have different classes/profession?
When there are many classes to choose from each should have a speciality..thats why there are classes to choose from.
You know there exist thing called 'play style', fact that classes can perform similiar tasks doesn't mean they have to perform it same way.
From what i've seen from gw2, classes definitley doesnt look same.
I don't think Loke666 is talking about the story mission hard modes, but rather the elite zones that come after that. I don't have much of any experience with them myself. I did go looking to see if Dhuum could be done with just heroes, and found this thread. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/dhuum-heroway-theorycraft-t10413984.html
Even though it is apparently possible, it's still requiring very specific builds. This is not a zerg.
In general though, it really depends on how we define zerg, to be honest. In the most extreme case, I think it would be people going in with their best individual builds and attacking in a completely uncoordinated manner and not supporting each other at all. So already by telling the henchmen to focus fire, you're not doing the most extreme definition of a zerg. One could also argue that for it to a be a true zerg, any random collection of henchmen should be able to do it. Deciding who to bring is a tactical decision.
And to be honest, even if you and the front line fighters in such a group are just dpsing mobs down, that doesn't mean that's what your healers are doing. There's healing or protective buffs, there's hex, condition, enchantment removal (if you take heroes without these into certain missions you can make your life a lot harder). Just because to you it distills down to a focus fire macro doesn't mean there isn't a lot of complexity being put into motion by that simple command.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
This misinformation is staggering here, If you want to learn about GW2 dungeons read the catacombs reviews and recaps of the explorable modes. Boss fights are not a single high hp mob. They are things like protecting npcs and playing with the machinics of the dunegons. its not simplying outlasting, and the players who play guild wars 2 from a raiding and WoW backround will not understand the game right away.