This is a tough situation and too many people are seeing things in black and white. Either you want to cause misery to other people, or your a carebear. There's actually good reasons for a harsh death penalty and for not having one.
Having played during some of the harsher death penalties (I even played on the permadeath server on EQ that they had going on for a short while), I can see why so many games moved away to a less harsh approach. Without a res in EQ you might lose hours of work, and that stunk. It was even worse when combined with the fact that you were now naked and needing to do a corpse run. It affected the fun of the players losing the experience, and it also affected the fun of anyone whose mishap happened to cause the death of others. Super harsh penaltie are generally bad. If a game is designed around them though it can be balanced towards it. For example losing some magic sword you got in a dungeon in UO didn't hurt nearly as bad as if you had lost your epic weapon in Everquest.
But on the flip side, if a game has next to no penalty for death, then it encourages players to play poorly. In SWTor you can res yourself right where you died! What's to stop you from rushing into encounters that overmatch you, ressing yourself and brute forcing your way through it? In fact, death's are often used as free rides to town because there really isn't much penalty in modern games.
Playing well, should be encouraged and rewarded. Having some sort of a death penalty does help to give players incentive to play well. But I certainly don't want to go back to the penalties of 10 years ago.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
Because they can't be honest and say it is about inflicting the harm on someone else.
To show you, you could suggest that at character creation you can get a choice from 0-10 where 0 is a wow-like penalty to 10 where you get permadeath. If they want that rush, they will endorse this. Any other factor, means they really want to cause pain to someone else. All that matters is how they try to justify it or excuse their choices.
Thats the point I am trying to make. I was told by somebody in another thread that was pro-HDP, that they dont force HDP on others, but they simply want HDP for the rush they get. Well, if they had a option for a harsh DP like EQ in WoW, would they use it, while others dont? they would get the rush right?
Oh wait,,, only if it effects others, that they have no control over.
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
Harsh dealth penalties should not be automatically linked to PvP, there are harsh penalties in Vanguard and currently no PvP.
In a game like Eve if I dont pay attention ratting NPCs and I die, I lose my ship and all on board. So I pay attention, retreat when necessary to recover.
In Order & Chaos, if I die I lose a few coins and regen nearby so I pile in, if its close I take my chances and die, but there is no fear of dying, it happens regularly, in my opinion the excitement suffers.
In a harsh death environment, people talk and share infomation and help each other to avoid death, whether by the environment or gankers, and so building a community. You often find the people who killed you in PvP games with a penalty give you good advice about how you could have avoided death.
In games with no penalty people tend to kill you and run off without even speaking to you, or just posting "Loser" or somesuch.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
The game is what the game is.
"Self inflicting" anything is not the game.
A harsh death penalty means you don't want to die, but you do.
If you "self inflict" it, then you must want it.
I will never play a game with harsh death penalties. That said, I was gonna say the same thing you did. Its the fear of that penalty that changes the way you play, the way OTHERS play with you. Making it a choice removes the fear, and the ways this fear affects your choices in the game. Players that want this game type WANT it to force others to play the way they do, because anything less means the game is advantaged against them...and basically isn't like playing a game at all. Its similar to saying you COULD drop out of a TDM match in Call of Duty when you died. But if it isn't a forced penalty, no one else will..and you will ALWAYS LOSE. Not much fun, that.
I'm probably going to go far more braodly than just your typical mmo but every game will have a penalty in some way, shape for form. The least harshest of all will be time, the harsher penalties will always be something more obviously more. That said, Harsh penalties have as many drawbacks as minor ones. I usually think FPS's are a good place to look at because it typiclly is the one genre where you see huge degrees of frustration and seeing ppl just quit. When they can't win a match, they drop and, for some who remember counterstrike, you've probably seen someone bash in a monitor or 2 in. It may not be that the penalty is harsh more than its psychological impact. At the same rate if penalties were relatively light, its needless to say that there would be a player base more than happy to exploit it to their advantage.
If you think of Fallen Earth, its penalty for dying is pretty proportionate to both idiocy of dying too often, too fast and to avoid using it as a method of constant zerging. Likewise you get something like WoW, FF and the like and its merely minor losses in exp, time and, in some cases, headaches. You get EvE where a loss = pretty much a loss ship.
But of all the games I mentioned, Eve, which has the harshest of the ones I've visited but isn't the harshest overall, also add an interesting dynamic to the game: the realism of "what do you use for a specific occassion". With those familiar with the game, you have to admit that loosing a ship as a possiblility raises the stakes of how to setup your ship. You probably don't take your best toys out on a typical basis.
Harsh death penalties may not be for everyone and the counter argument that it raises the skill level bar I think has some truth in it, but its not like lowering it doesn't create a horde of other problems either. And no one is going to take an optionally harder route unless those they were playing with also had to deal with the same issues unless there was a system in place to reward them more for the difficulty. Its something that developers cn look into but the thing about players is the novelty of trying to find a run-around to the rules to their advantage.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
Once again, you seem to want HDP forced on others, for you to feel this "Rush" you seek.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
Once again, you seem to want HDP forced on others, for you to feel this "Rush" you seek.
Come now...surely you understand that the rush isn't just from the HDP, but also in how it affects the way every encounter unfolds. If a game is to be played with HDP...it absolutely has to have it on all fronts or else the meaning and effect of it is destroyed. Forcing it on an individual basis brings nothing to the gameplay, save that to ensure everyone else be steeled against you at all times. You, then, must play always conservative in a setting in which no one else will. Worse, even should you obtain victory over them...they can then just return until the course changes and then they always have a character and you, now, do not.
From a neutral point of view...its like saying, "Just delete your characters now and quit because I don't want you here". Honestly, thats not really presenting yourself in any better a light than him. If anything, its nearly trolling because its beyond reason the think you cannot understand the point of view presented. Self imposed rulesets don't work because it defies the purpose of the ruleset.
I do inflict harsher death penalties on myself in many games I play. To me, it's like penalties in football. It encourages players to play smarter and with more discipline. I don't care if other players do not like harsh death penalties, though I do believe that harsh death penalties in online games can help foster better communities.
I got a honest question, just how do harsh death penaties foster better communties? Could you please elaborate.
There are several ways, but they are reliant on the other mechanics and circumstances of the game, of course. These are also my opinion. I have no hard facts to back them up other than my own experience.
1. It encourages players to play better. A lot of conflict and drama is due to players who don't give a shit and make silly mistakes that get other players killed. In general, if players are playing better, there will be less mistakes. By contrast, if there are no consequences, it really doesn't matter how many times or how bad you mess up. Ironically players tend to get more upset when someone screws up in games wtih light death penalties than in games with harsh consequences.
2. It encourages players to help each other, instead of pointing fingers. When you die and it is difficult to get back to where you were before you died (long corpse run or XP loss), players are generally more sympathetic toward one another. Someone helped me when I died, now I am going to help you, to return the favor. By contrast, players in games with light death penalties might see a player asking for help and think that helping them would be a waste of time since nothing is lost if they do not help them.
3. It encourages communication. When there are harsh death penalties, players will be asking for help more often. Critisism is often not as harsh and more readily available. It is also often more appreciated. By contrast, if there are light death penalties, players are expected to rely on themselves and ridiculed when unable to do so.
If you put a gun to my head and ask me to be nice to you AND I actually do that, you wouldn't be to smart to think that I am being nice to you for any reason other than the gun. What you see is something that was a perception of it because people were trying to make the best of a bad situation.
I can't tell if you agree or disagree with what I typed. I'm fine if people pretend to be nice. It's a lot better than them being a jerk just because they can. Making the best of a bad situation is the entire point, from my perspective. You might be nice to me because you want to live. You might be nice to me because you've been where I've been and have sympathy. Neither of which actually have to do with the gun. They have to do with the person holding the gun.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
Once again, you seem to want HDP forced on others, for you to feel this "Rush" you seek.
First off, you asked "Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?"
If I am going to answer that question good, Sir... I have to say "I" in the answer. So you can highlight it all you want. If you don't want people to answer your question, don't ask one.
So, like I was saying. The reason I wouldn't want a self inflicted penalty, is because it defeats the purpose of want I want in pvp.. which is pvp. Not people just standing there while I kill them who don't give a flying hell if they die. You can have it anyway you like, but people like me, want there to be repurcusions for death.
The rush a lot of people are referring to is about consequenses. There is a rush, because you know that if you die, you have something to loose. The problem with self inflicted penalties my good Sir would be people like you. You see, if there are no penalitles and I jump you and start killing you... you have ABSOLUTELY no incentive to fight for your life. You'll just stand there and let me kill you. Don't argue, it's true. So... my rush is now gone, because you won't fight back. Get it? The rush is only there if there are consequences for everyone..... I don't mean to be rude, just trying to explain it.
But you're correct, it shouldn't be forced on anyone who doesn't want it as it has to be all or none. This is why there is a lack of these types of games. Because the majority of players aparently don't want it.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
Will you ever stop making pointless threads, why do you feel the urge to force your carebear casual world on us?
Once again, you seem to want HDP forced on others, for you to feel this "Rush" you seek.
No one is forcing anyone to play any game.
If I join a game, I agree to its rules. If it has a harsh death penalty, then I agree to play by those rules by playing. If I don't like that, I can go play another game. If I kill someone in the game and they suffer the harsh penalty, I have not forced that harsh penalty onto them. They forced it on themselves by choosing to play the game.
What scenario are you talking about exactly where this "forcing" is occuring? Because I don't know of any mmorpg where one player forces another player to do anything.
You are using words and phrases in ways which just don't make sense with how the games are designed. Players choose to play, and if they choose to play, they agree to play by the rules, including whatever death penalty there may be. The ones who want to play a game with a harsh penalty can do just that. The ones who want to play a game with non harsh death penalties can do just that. The ones who want to play a game with an option that will allow some players to turn off the harsh penalty can do just that.
-it gives that rush feeling that makes pvp ten times more exciting
-works well as a penalty for losing a fight and as a prize for winning one
-makes people think before acting, makes game world actually feel like a dangerous place instead of Disneyworld (an adventure should have some danger in it, amirite?). This also adds to pve, you always need to watch your back when you slaughter mobs/run quests.
-it just feels more logical
-helps the economy and those that want to play as a dedicated crafter, Pk'ers always need new stuff (EVE is a good example)
-makes people to seek protection from other people and this way it creates a more social community
-gives the chance to play evil character
Reasons why full loot is a bad thing:
-it makes asocial people who fall in love with their pixels cry
I have no problem with permadeath either, as long as the game is designed around it (no horrid grind etc), same goes for full loot, it wont work in every type of game (usually themeparks).
Btw, I can't understand why you people keep whining about death penalties, don't you already have like gazillion MMO's with no DP what so ever?
Some people like hard death penalties, some don't. It works in some games and IPs, and not in others.
Some people like full loot mechanics, some don't. It works in some games and IPs, and not in others.
This is precisely why there are different games. Different people enjoy different things in games, and so we need different games to accommodate different types.
It takes all kinds, people.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Some people like hard death penalties, some don't. It works in some games and IPs, and not in others.
Some people like full loot mechanics, some don't. It works in some games and IPs, and not in others.
This is precisely why there are different games. Different people enjoy different things in games, and so we need different games to accommodate different types.
It takes all kinds, people.
That's a bit silly thing to say, since different opinions are usually the reason why people have conversations. Without that this, and every other forum, would be pretty dead.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
This is sadly an example of a type of player who likes to force others to play his way yet he doesant see it. Because i could just as easilly say to him why force others not to have a harsh penalty in there game. Take note i say there game which is usually one designed with the harsh death as a main mechanic. Take EvE as an obviouse example of such a game. Now to diretly answer your question which you have asked many many times before as best as i can.
Q: why inflict the penalty on others, why not self inflict it if you like it so much? And why force others to share in this rush?
A: well we do self inflict it as when done right it works and can be fun but also avoidable if you dont feel like getting that rush. As for inflicting it on others i think you are picturing a situation where a Wow like game suddenly gets a death penalty therefore inflicting it on those who dont want a penalty like that. Well i have yet to see such a thing happpen for real and if you play a game that has such a penalty already like say eve and you protest at the penalty for being killed i have to ask did you even get the game in the first place? as for forcing you to experience the rush as you call it i fail to see how, as the rush comes from a willing engagement in the penalty system and surviving or dying as a result of your williing engagement in it. So really you are forcing yourself into the system as such systems are generallly well advertised and implimented in games where a harsh penalty is part of the game to begine with so if you are having a problem why are you playing in a harsh death penalty based game in the first place?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Why do some poker players insist on forcing other players to hand over their money? Isn't the thrill from risking their own money enough to entertain them?
Poker players who insist on collecting their winnings, well I wont say that they're all sociopaths, but lets be honest - sociopaths are drawn to that style of play. There's likely to be something wrong with someone who insists on forcing this kind of gameplay on others. I just want to play cards and accumulate poker chips, and a game design that WASTES MY TIME by making me lose money is just badly made. Life is too short to waste it on losing my chips!
The 'rush' comes from the risk vs reward factor. Unless you're ganking lowbies or some other silliness the outcome of any given fight (assuming similar levels) isn't really ...known in advance. You run the risk of your gamble (starting the fight) wont pay off (you die). That 's where the rush comes from. It cannot be self-imposed.
It also makes you consider your actions more carefully (in making decisons on whom to attack, etc.) and making PvP more exciting in genral.
That said, it's not everyone's cup of tea. If that's not your thing, then it'd probably be best to avoid titles with harsh death penalties.
"It's not the ignorance of the people, it's that most of what they 'know', just ain't so" -Anonymous 19th century comic
The OP is misrepresenting the phrase death penalty.Nobody said we WANT to die,and that is exactly what the OP is saying,kill oursleves for the rush.
The rush is in "AVOIDING" death,or in case of anything else in real life as well,AVOIDING to lose.
Oh my god my pixels just died and i lost 5 minutes game time.That was such valuable time ,that's why i was playing video games,becuase it was so valuable...pfft.
What is funnier is how people get in a knot over dying in a video game.One you don't actually die,two you don't actually feel anything and three who cares,does it do something to you mentally,that leaves you in a stressfull situation?
If you want to be afraid of your own shadow and have the entire game lay down at your feet,you need to quit gaming and definitely stay away from any sports or anything competitive.I guess that would leave watching TV,maybe play in the garden or wash the dishes,idk,something with no risk.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
The OP is misrepresenting the phrase death penalty.Nobody said we WANT to die,and that is exactly what the OP is saying,kill oursleves for the rush.
The rush is in "AVOIDING" death,or in case of anything else in real life as well,AVOIDING to lose.
Well said, Wizardry.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Not really, there are plenty of people in low and null pvp'ing in EVE. Sure the majority "hides" in high sec. But the fun can be found. If anything it beats pvp servers in WoW where a lvl 85 can gank lowbies (without consequences) almost everywhere and corps camp them for shits and giggles.
The thing is that usually the game's mechanics are dependent on the death penalty. You can't just go and throw a death penalty in game designed around the concept of meaningless deaths. Off course if you add Full loot in WoW (eg) pvp servers would die instantly and those remaining there would just bank up their best gear and run around in greenies. But that's because the game wasn't developed to support a full loot gameplay.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Not really, there are plenty of people in low and null pvp'ing in EVE. Sure the majority "hides" in high sec. But the fun can be found. If anything it beats pvp servers in WoW where a lvl 85 can gank lowbies (without consequences) almost everywhere and corps camp them for shits and giggles.
The thing is that usually the game's mechanics are dependent on the death penalty. You can't just go and throw a death penalty in game designed around the concept of meaningless deaths. Off course if you add Full loot in WoW (eg) pvp servers would die instantly and those remaining there would just bank up their best gear and run around in greenies. But that's because the game wasn't developed to support a full loot gameplay.
Very true, if you put everything in perspective, things will look more natural. I am just pointing out an opposite possibility from Praetalus' argument which is a broadbrush statement void of other information from game design to community.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Kind of sad that it is true these days.
Back in the late 80's, early 90's, text based RPGs had serious consequences, but they were recoverable for the most part.
In one game I played, Gemstone, you had to have "favors" if you died (which you got by donating in-game currency to an organization). If you died, without favor, you died forever. Period. Character deleted. All gear gone. Bank gone. Money gone. Absolutely no chance of recovery.
Even if you did have favor, when you died, your equipment just fell to the ground, unless you were lucky enough to know a Cleric that would go try to find your body and raise you. If not, you resurrected wearing nothing but a robe. You either had to be good and fast, and run out to get your gear, or have friends to help you.
Oh, and ANYONE could pick up your gear... including the mobs. I once spent several hours searching for one troll who had an enchanted weapon (one of few in the game) and had to fight him to get it back.
But it didn't stop exploration or adventure... It just encouraged people to actually form a community.
In those days, you HAD to have community. You couldn't be a total d-bag to everyone, because if you did, no one would heal you (no such things as healing potions, you HAD to find a healer to heal you) so you'd just die of your wounds. If the GMs didn't kick you out first. They cared about the environment, and being a jerk just to be a jerk wasn't tolerated.
Kids today would cry if they had to deal with the gaming environments of the past. In fact, it's why I can't play Gemstone anymore... It's become a Sesame Street version of itself where your gear goes with you when you die, and no more permanent deaths. Maybe that's why I still can't find an MMO that interests me for more than a few months. They're all full of kids who think they're entitled to be idiots.
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
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This is a tough situation and too many people are seeing things in black and white. Either you want to cause misery to other people, or your a carebear. There's actually good reasons for a harsh death penalty and for not having one.
Having played during some of the harsher death penalties (I even played on the permadeath server on EQ that they had going on for a short while), I can see why so many games moved away to a less harsh approach. Without a res in EQ you might lose hours of work, and that stunk. It was even worse when combined with the fact that you were now naked and needing to do a corpse run. It affected the fun of the players losing the experience, and it also affected the fun of anyone whose mishap happened to cause the death of others. Super harsh penaltie are generally bad. If a game is designed around them though it can be balanced towards it. For example losing some magic sword you got in a dungeon in UO didn't hurt nearly as bad as if you had lost your epic weapon in Everquest.
But on the flip side, if a game has next to no penalty for death, then it encourages players to play poorly. In SWTor you can res yourself right where you died! What's to stop you from rushing into encounters that overmatch you, ressing yourself and brute forcing your way through it? In fact, death's are often used as free rides to town because there really isn't much penalty in modern games.
Playing well, should be encouraged and rewarded. Having some sort of a death penalty does help to give players incentive to play well. But I certainly don't want to go back to the penalties of 10 years ago.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Thats the point I am trying to make. I was told by somebody in another thread that was pro-HDP, that they dont force HDP on others, but they simply want HDP for the rush they get. Well, if they had a option for a harsh DP like EQ in WoW, would they use it, while others dont? they would get the rush right?
Oh wait,,, only if it effects others, that they have no control over.
that seem like forcing on others
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
Harsh dealth penalties should not be automatically linked to PvP, there are harsh penalties in Vanguard and currently no PvP.
In a game like Eve if I dont pay attention ratting NPCs and I die, I lose my ship and all on board. So I pay attention, retreat when necessary to recover.
In Order & Chaos, if I die I lose a few coins and regen nearby so I pile in, if its close I take my chances and die, but there is no fear of dying, it happens regularly, in my opinion the excitement suffers.
In a harsh death environment, people talk and share infomation and help each other to avoid death, whether by the environment or gankers, and so building a community. You often find the people who killed you in PvP games with a penalty give you good advice about how you could have avoided death.
In games with no penalty people tend to kill you and run off without even speaking to you, or just posting "Loser" or somesuch.
I'm probably going to go far more braodly than just your typical mmo but every game will have a penalty in some way, shape for form. The least harshest of all will be time, the harsher penalties will always be something more obviously more. That said, Harsh penalties have as many drawbacks as minor ones. I usually think FPS's are a good place to look at because it typiclly is the one genre where you see huge degrees of frustration and seeing ppl just quit. When they can't win a match, they drop and, for some who remember counterstrike, you've probably seen someone bash in a monitor or 2 in. It may not be that the penalty is harsh more than its psychological impact. At the same rate if penalties were relatively light, its needless to say that there would be a player base more than happy to exploit it to their advantage.
If you think of Fallen Earth, its penalty for dying is pretty proportionate to both idiocy of dying too often, too fast and to avoid using it as a method of constant zerging. Likewise you get something like WoW, FF and the like and its merely minor losses in exp, time and, in some cases, headaches. You get EvE where a loss = pretty much a loss ship.
But of all the games I mentioned, Eve, which has the harshest of the ones I've visited but isn't the harshest overall, also add an interesting dynamic to the game: the realism of "what do you use for a specific occassion". With those familiar with the game, you have to admit that loosing a ship as a possiblility raises the stakes of how to setup your ship. You probably don't take your best toys out on a typical basis.
Harsh death penalties may not be for everyone and the counter argument that it raises the skill level bar I think has some truth in it, but its not like lowering it doesn't create a horde of other problems either. And no one is going to take an optionally harder route unless those they were playing with also had to deal with the same issues unless there was a system in place to reward them more for the difficulty. Its something that developers cn look into but the thing about players is the novelty of trying to find a run-around to the rules to their advantage.
Once again, you seem to want HDP forced on others, for you to feel this "Rush" you seek.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Come now...surely you understand that the rush isn't just from the HDP, but also in how it affects the way every encounter unfolds. If a game is to be played with HDP...it absolutely has to have it on all fronts or else the meaning and effect of it is destroyed. Forcing it on an individual basis brings nothing to the gameplay, save that to ensure everyone else be steeled against you at all times. You, then, must play always conservative in a setting in which no one else will. Worse, even should you obtain victory over them...they can then just return until the course changes and then they always have a character and you, now, do not.
From a neutral point of view...its like saying, "Just delete your characters now and quit because I don't want you here". Honestly, thats not really presenting yourself in any better a light than him. If anything, its nearly trolling because its beyond reason the think you cannot understand the point of view presented. Self imposed rulesets don't work because it defies the purpose of the ruleset.
I can't tell if you agree or disagree with what I typed. I'm fine if people pretend to be nice. It's a lot better than them being a jerk just because they can. Making the best of a bad situation is the entire point, from my perspective. You might be nice to me because you want to live. You might be nice to me because you've been where I've been and have sympathy. Neither of which actually have to do with the gun. They have to do with the person holding the gun.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
First off, you asked "Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?"
If I am going to answer that question good, Sir... I have to say "I" in the answer. So you can highlight it all you want. If you don't want people to answer your question, don't ask one.
So, like I was saying. The reason I wouldn't want a self inflicted penalty, is because it defeats the purpose of want I want in pvp.. which is pvp. Not people just standing there while I kill them who don't give a flying hell if they die. You can have it anyway you like, but people like me, want there to be repurcusions for death.
The rush a lot of people are referring to is about consequenses. There is a rush, because you know that if you die, you have something to loose. The problem with self inflicted penalties my good Sir would be people like you. You see, if there are no penalitles and I jump you and start killing you... you have ABSOLUTELY no incentive to fight for your life. You'll just stand there and let me kill you. Don't argue, it's true. So... my rush is now gone, because you won't fight back. Get it? The rush is only there if there are consequences for everyone..... I don't mean to be rude, just trying to explain it.
But you're correct, it shouldn't be forced on anyone who doesn't want it as it has to be all or none. This is why there is a lack of these types of games. Because the majority of players aparently don't want it.
Will you ever stop making pointless threads, why do you feel the urge to force your carebear casual world on us?
No one is forcing anyone to play any game.
If I join a game, I agree to its rules. If it has a harsh death penalty, then I agree to play by those rules by playing. If I don't like that, I can go play another game. If I kill someone in the game and they suffer the harsh penalty, I have not forced that harsh penalty onto them. They forced it on themselves by choosing to play the game.
What scenario are you talking about exactly where this "forcing" is occuring? Because I don't know of any mmorpg where one player forces another player to do anything.
You are using words and phrases in ways which just don't make sense with how the games are designed. Players choose to play, and if they choose to play, they agree to play by the rules, including whatever death penalty there may be. The ones who want to play a game with a harsh penalty can do just that. The ones who want to play a game with non harsh death penalties can do just that. The ones who want to play a game with an option that will allow some players to turn off the harsh penalty can do just that.
Does that not make sense to you?
Reasons why full loot is a good thing:
-it gives that rush feeling that makes pvp ten times more exciting
-works well as a penalty for losing a fight and as a prize for winning one
-makes people think before acting, makes game world actually feel like a dangerous place instead of Disneyworld (an adventure should have some danger in it, amirite?). This also adds to pve, you always need to watch your back when you slaughter mobs/run quests.
-it just feels more logical
-helps the economy and those that want to play as a dedicated crafter, Pk'ers always need new stuff (EVE is a good example)
-makes people to seek protection from other people and this way it creates a more social community
-gives the chance to play evil character
Reasons why full loot is a bad thing:
-it makes asocial people who fall in love with their pixels cry
I have no problem with permadeath either, as long as the game is designed around it (no horrid grind etc), same goes for full loot, it wont work in every type of game (usually themeparks).
Btw, I can't understand why you people keep whining about death penalties, don't you already have like gazillion MMO's with no DP what so ever?
Why do we still have this conversation?
Some people like hard death penalties, some don't. It works in some games and IPs, and not in others.
Some people like full loot mechanics, some don't. It works in some games and IPs, and not in others.
This is precisely why there are different games. Different people enjoy different things in games, and so we need different games to accommodate different types.
It takes all kinds, people.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
That's a bit silly thing to say, since different opinions are usually the reason why people have conversations. Without that this, and every other forum, would be pretty dead.
This is sadly an example of a type of player who likes to force others to play his way yet he doesant see it. Because i could just as easilly say to him why force others not to have a harsh penalty in there game. Take note i say there game which is usually one designed with the harsh death as a main mechanic. Take EvE as an obviouse example of such a game. Now to diretly answer your question which you have asked many many times before as best as i can.Q: why inflict the penalty on others, why not self inflict it if you like it so much? And why force others to share in this rush?
A: well we do self inflict it as when done right it works and can be fun but also avoidable if you dont feel like getting that rush. As for inflicting it on others i think you are picturing a situation where a Wow like game suddenly gets a death penalty therefore inflicting it on those who dont want a penalty like that. Well i have yet to see such a thing happpen for real and if you play a game that has such a penalty already like say eve and you protest at the penalty for being killed i have to ask did you even get the game in the first place? as for forcing you to experience the rush as you call it i fail to see how, as the rush comes from a willing engagement in the penalty system and surviving or dying as a result of your williing engagement in it. So really you are forcing yourself into the system as such systems are generallly well advertised and implimented in games where a harsh penalty is part of the game to begine with so if you are having a problem why are you playing in a harsh death penalty based game in the first place?
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Why do some poker players insist on forcing other players to hand over their money? Isn't the thrill from risking their own money enough to entertain them?
Poker players who insist on collecting their winnings, well I wont say that they're all sociopaths, but lets be honest - sociopaths are drawn to that style of play. There's likely to be something wrong with someone who insists on forcing this kind of gameplay on others. I just want to play cards and accumulate poker chips, and a game design that WASTES MY TIME by making me lose money is just badly made. Life is too short to waste it on losing my chips!
Give me liberty or give me lasers
The 'rush' comes from the risk vs reward factor. Unless you're ganking lowbies or some other silliness the outcome of any given fight (assuming similar levels) isn't really ...known in advance. You run the risk of your gamble (starting the fight) wont pay off (you die). That 's where the rush comes from. It cannot be self-imposed.
It also makes you consider your actions more carefully (in making decisons on whom to attack, etc.) and making PvP more exciting in genral.
That said, it's not everyone's cup of tea. If that's not your thing, then it'd probably be best to avoid titles with harsh death penalties.
"It's not the ignorance of the people, it's that most of what they 'know', just ain't so" -Anonymous 19th century comic
The OP is misrepresenting the phrase death penalty.Nobody said we WANT to die,and that is exactly what the OP is saying,kill oursleves for the rush.
The rush is in "AVOIDING" death,or in case of anything else in real life as well,AVOIDING to lose.
Oh my god my pixels just died and i lost 5 minutes game time.That was such valuable time ,that's why i was playing video games,becuase it was so valuable...pfft.
What is funnier is how people get in a knot over dying in a video game.One you don't actually die,two you don't actually feel anything and three who cares,does it do something to you mentally,that leaves you in a stressfull situation?
If you want to be afraid of your own shadow and have the entire game lay down at your feet,you need to quit gaming and definitely stay away from any sports or anything competitive.I guess that would leave watching TV,maybe play in the garden or wash the dishes,idk,something with no risk.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Well said, Wizardry.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not really, there are plenty of people in low and null pvp'ing in EVE. Sure the majority "hides" in high sec. But the fun can be found. If anything it beats pvp servers in WoW where a lvl 85 can gank lowbies (without consequences) almost everywhere and corps camp them for shits and giggles.
The thing is that usually the game's mechanics are dependent on the death penalty. You can't just go and throw a death penalty in game designed around the concept of meaningless deaths. Off course if you add Full loot in WoW (eg) pvp servers would die instantly and those remaining there would just bank up their best gear and run around in greenies. But that's because the game wasn't developed to support a full loot gameplay.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Very true, if you put everything in perspective, things will look more natural. I am just pointing out an opposite possibility from Praetalus' argument which is a broadbrush statement void of other information from game design to community.
Kind of sad that it is true these days.
Back in the late 80's, early 90's, text based RPGs had serious consequences, but they were recoverable for the most part.
In one game I played, Gemstone, you had to have "favors" if you died (which you got by donating in-game currency to an organization). If you died, without favor, you died forever. Period. Character deleted. All gear gone. Bank gone. Money gone. Absolutely no chance of recovery.
Even if you did have favor, when you died, your equipment just fell to the ground, unless you were lucky enough to know a Cleric that would go try to find your body and raise you. If not, you resurrected wearing nothing but a robe. You either had to be good and fast, and run out to get your gear, or have friends to help you.
Oh, and ANYONE could pick up your gear... including the mobs. I once spent several hours searching for one troll who had an enchanted weapon (one of few in the game) and had to fight him to get it back.
But it didn't stop exploration or adventure... It just encouraged people to actually form a community.
In those days, you HAD to have community. You couldn't be a total d-bag to everyone, because if you did, no one would heal you (no such things as healing potions, you HAD to find a healer to heal you) so you'd just die of your wounds. If the GMs didn't kick you out first. They cared about the environment, and being a jerk just to be a jerk wasn't tolerated.
Kids today would cry if they had to deal with the gaming environments of the past. In fact, it's why I can't play Gemstone anymore... It's become a Sesame Street version of itself where your gear goes with you when you die, and no more permanent deaths. Maybe that's why I still can't find an MMO that interests me for more than a few months. They're all full of kids who think they're entitled to be idiots.
Talking points are neat. Facts are neater.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre