And this is where the point about retention comes in. Once the novelty wears off, what is there to keep the non-story-lovers in this game?
I think this is a pertinent question for BioWare and their ultimate success hinges on their decision.
Uhgg, this is the same obstacle every company faces, this is the end all be all of a successful MMO. Bioware has to face this reality, Anet has to face this reality, Carbine has to, as does every other upcoming MMO's development team.
The answer is offering things players can do together, PVP, guild functionality, group content, etc... Every element of this revolves aroud chasing carrots, be it a sandbox game or themepark, you have to offer something players want to achieve. Be it a sprawling metropolis, or a lengendary weapon of badassery.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
I think if we can conclude one thing safely, then it's that it's not only quest content that keeps people playing in themepark MMO's: after all, in the past 5-6 years it was possible in as good as all themepark MMO's to reach level cap in 2-3 months. Yet as sub figures prove, MMO gamers stayed a hell of a lot longer in the themepark MMO of their choice than merely 2-3 months.
So, the conclusion: MMO's with quest based leveling focus do not have a retention that stops when people reach level cap. Proven by history.
Right. Which brings me back to my original point. What is going to be different past the first month or two? I think we can establish that that remains to be seen.
Another thing: you are off with your conclusion that people are skipping story content because they dislike questing. Let people do the same repeater quests like in Aion or FFXIV or remove quests and let them level by mob grinding, and you'll find out what MMO gamers really, really dislike when leveling. They skip story content and quest text because it has become trivial and boring in their implementation. In fact, the MMO designers of 3 of the biggest upcoming MMO's disagree with you here: because all have stated that MMO gamers were skipping quest text, that questing has become bland and bad in current MMO's and that the RPG needed to be put back into MMORPG, by implementing more story and context to the quest leveling. Which you'll see in SWTOR, GW2 (Personal Story) and TSW.
You're extrapolating here. I did not say taht players skip story content because they dislike it. (in fact I didn't say anything at all, so it really was an extrapolation on your part!). To clarify, I feel it is because the story doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things in most MMOs. If BioWarEA can alter that, great.
As far as the future of MMOs - there is a lot more to TSW and GW2. They are more than story-driven themeparks. There has to be another dimension to an MMO to give it that pop.In the case of GW2, it really is out there. Feels more like a multiplayer ARPG than a grind MMO. As for TSW, we don't know much yet but it comes across as a themepark with many sandbox elements. Little reminiscent of SWG in that concept.
Whether that can be said of SWTOR remains yet to be seen. If it follows the WoW model (what started this thread), it will be severely restrictive (for those of us who are familiar with this genre, of course). factor in Ohlen's (IMO) narrow view and it will definitely age fast.
So, yes, Rift has less content than for example an MMO that takes 200-300 hours to reach level cap, and where it's more interesting to level alts.
I disagree with you here.
Rift's levelling content is short. That is true.
There is however plenty of endgame -- more than for most other MMOs of late. With that said, I don't think it is interesting content simply because of the grind elements to it.
And that is my worry for SWTOR: RIFT has followed WoW's model regarding the game progression model. And this same plague seems to be festering in SWTOR. I can only hope that this is not the case.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Uhgg, this is the same obstacle every company faces, this is the end all be all of a successful MMO. Bioware has to face this reality, Anet has to face this reality, Carbine has to, as does every other upcoming MMO's development team.
I agree. Taht's where this discussion comes up.
a. What is the carrot in SWTOR?
The answer is offering things players can do together, PVP, guild functionality, group content, etc... Every element of this revolves aroud chasing carrots, be it a sandbox game or themepark, you have to offer something players want to achieve. Be it a spawling metropolis, or a lengendary weapon of badassery.
b. Will it be the boring, tired old carrot of WoW*?
*it will be a draw for many people like the OP, but there is a large section of the MMO community fed up of this model
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Uhgg, this is the same obstacle every company faces, this is the end all be all of a successful MMO. Bioware has to face this reality, Anet has to face this reality, Carbine has to, as does every other upcoming MMO's development team.
I agree. Taht's where this discussion comes up.
a. What is the carrot in SWTOR?I'd guess the +5 Saber of badassery. At least at the start.
The answer is offering things players can do together, PVP, guild functionality, group content, etc... Every element of this revolves aroud chasing carrots, be it a sandbox game or themepark, you have to offer something players want to achieve. Be it a spawling metropolis, or a lengendary weapon of badassery.
b. Will it be the boring, tired old carrot of WoW*? Who knows really, they already have an established PVP endgame, which gives them one thing above wow, in that it can start as this form of game from the very begining; which allows that type of player base to settle in early on. Rather than feel as a tacked on element of the game. Then it's a matter of adding new things in ample enough time to keep players busy, all around.
*it will be a draw for many people like the OP, but there is a large section of the MMO community fed up of this model
That other element will just have to settle for something else.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
The problem here is that WoW is around a decade old. Its mechanics are also that old. There's nothing really wrong with that. Rift has done well for itself. But I cant think of another WoW clone that has.
I have to wonder if even Blizzard holds to this philosophy. In regards to their new project " Titan ", I really wonder if its going to have the same mechanics as WoW. I wouldnt be surprised if they pushed the envelope a little bit.
And since when was innovation, creativity, and originality stupid? Yes building their mechanics around WoW will probably work for them, but its not going to shock and awe people either.
You live in a small town. There is only a burger joint. Thats all the town has got and they do good business because people eat lunch. If you open another burger joint and say, " Hey! Hey! We have burgers too! " you'll do some business. But most people will continue to get their burgers where they've been getting them. Open a Mexican food restaurant? Watch the money pile in.
OP you may think this is a +1 for Bioware, but I see it as a -5 . From a company that seemingly pushed innovation and originality for so long, this is just dissapointing to see.
WoW was recognized as a touchstone, not a blueprint. All the person being quoted was saying was that the basic features in WoW need to be in almost every MMO to be successful. The mechanics behind those features can be qutie different though. For instance, crafting in WoW is done by you. You farming or buying resources, you crafting, you selling, and it is all instant gratification once you have the supplies you need because crafting itself takes no time at all. In SWTOR, you can have your companion gather the resources from fallen targets if you want, you can send your companion out on missions to gather resources, you can have your companion do the crafting and the crafting actually takes a while so you really get the feeling you are creating something. The whole time YOU ARE OUT ADVENTURING. From this example alone you can see that the touchstone was reached, but it was never used as a blueprint.
You can see this fact in most of the features of SWTOR. It seems to me that what BioWare really is trying to do is take WoW and not only meet the basic standards it represents, but to greatly surpass them. Some people may not like this, but anyone denying it is either purposefully blind or completely unwilling to read.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
im playing dragon age 2 and i know the story will be pretty much the same based on my choices. even if i play as a diffrent class then i am now and i still wanna re roll as a diffrent class knowing its the same content.
i totally love the companion character meriill and its the coolest thing i have ever experianced in any video game ive ever played putting this in an mmo will be so awesome.
The fact that just like dragon age and mass effect when u go by npcs u can hear them chatting with each other will be a cool twist also.
Look peole play themepark mmos cause even if it is gear grind at the end they have a set thing to do and even runnign the same area and quests over like i have in wow numerous times i keep rolling alts.
So to say people wont stay with a game tht has vo and story and choice added to the quest grind is ridiculous.
truth is themepark mmos on the whole do better then sandbox games
by the way u cant get rid of questin in an mmorpg quests are part of what make an rpg bioware turning those into story based quest wth choice and consequences adds to the intrigue of the quest.
Before WoW, themeparks and sandboxes were pretty close. If Blizzard would have gone the sandbox route, who knows what could have happened?
It wouldn't have done as well, I can tell you that right now.
What do i see when they say WoW standards, i see the following
Quest based game
Polish
open worlds.
Progression usually levels
End-game content
Intuitive easy to use UI
I don't think it means combat style though it could
I really don't think it has anything to do with artstyle or repeating content over and over again and we know it's not lack of customization or housing as both are in spades in swtor, and it would be pretty dumb to say it's a bad idea to break these rules then go ahead and break em yourself. Thats like calling yourself dumb and being serious about it.
The one thing i think they are donig thats dumb that Blizzard doesn't do is PR. Sorry i'm a bioware fan and i can tell. You need to know how to talk to your public on a number of occasions, the above included they have said something that just made me /facepalm, the Bioware devs are nice guys, they are business people, they know how to make games the public enjoys. They don't know how to talk to their public though, Bioware. Hire some PR people, don't let the devs do it
Regardless we already know what wow offers and we know that SW:TOR offers armor that can be customized with mods to allow you to equip almost anything for even the highest of content you can even mod a tusken raider outfit or mere social armor to the extent that you can run around in raids with it.
we know (or should) that PvP isn't simply just kill X number, in instance PvP you are auto adjusted to apporiate levels so your more in the skill range rather then they just stomp you because you can't hit someone 10 levels above you and they can just stemroll you (this is different from WoW). Now i don't know how wintergrasp works as thats what most people refer to but i'm pretty sure the mechanic of giving people bonuses to make it more even for the underdog like launchers isn't in that game.
Second, until very recently (ala cata) the quests were completely linear and text based where as here they branch and talk, we also know that this only works up to a certain level in cata and then your back to same ol same ol WoW, we know this continues throughout the entirety of ToR.
Third, i haven't heard anything about being able to not only join but affect someone elses quest wether you have that quest or not.
I've seen some of cata story driven quests via youtube, they don't compare you have the normal sprites just stating their lines. Here you have them not only interacting but responding. In wow they are running on a script that is preprogramed that the player can't even interact in.
Fourth this is only minor and this could just be my own gripe but combat feels really weird when you swing through someones sheild or sword, at least Bioware here tries to improve upon that to the extent that your sword actually hits and responds when it hits. Thats so much better imo, far as i know WoW still doesn't do this.
Touchstone just means you should work off that.
Progression (usually levels)
some kind of end-game
Maybe trinity, though Bioware has broken away from classes being X class, but the trinity is still there, just that you have ways around that, like not waiting for X class to complete, or that a class you pick can be various thuings
Polish is a big one. You have a buggy game, you deserve to get a bad rating (sorry guys lack of money or people don't count)
Quests
That sort of thing, you build off of that. Now i'm all for new things as long as they equal fun times ahead, some things are standards like intutive UI thats a standard WoW set, you make your UI easy to use
You do like FF14 and you here griping galore such as you made too many menus, why does B or I not lead to my inventory. Why do i have to do all this stuff just to get to my skills. Thats diverting from the standard and that can lead to bad things. You make your UI easy to use thats more important then almost anything. I or B leads to your inventory, skills should be easy to get to usually hotkeyed to your number keys, health and mana (if applicable) should be easy to find usually near the character profile. Don't do like DCUO either and make it hard to chat that will hurt you to. Very easy to see what things you shouldn't diver from.
It's not about making a direct copy of WoW, it's going with things people expect when you go into an MMO. Start diverting too much away and your customers start to dislike it. It leads to people going huh? to open your inventory you have to....triple click on your character? what kind of way to open your inventory is that? Sure these are different ways to go about it. Just some of them are also horrible. Don't mess with the UI and make it hard for your player to do tasks they do all the time. Don't make your game lack content, don't leave it a buggy game. In short don't make your game a disaster just to make it different from WoW. Cause you'll be different from wow alright. Where as they have millions of subs, you'll have none.
Thats not to say you shouldn't innovate, you should and Bioware is (yes they are, and you can't deny it and no point splitting hairs) but you need to be careful how you innovate, tried to do it one way and your public hates it, guess what you hurt your product, the problem with MMOs is if people hate your game for whatever reason, not only is years (not year or months but years) worth of work are down the drain, but now your company is mud, just ask Square Enix.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
im playing dragon age 2 and i know the story will be pretty much the same based on my choices. even if i play as a diffrent class then i am now and i still wanna re roll as a diffrent class knowing its the same content.
i totally love the companion character meriill and its the coolest thing i have ever experianced in any video game ive ever played putting this in an mmo will be so awesome.
The fact that just like dragon age and mass effect when u go by npcs u can hear them chatting with each other will be a cool twist also.
Look peole play themepark mmos cause even if it is gear grind at the end they have a set thing to do and even runnign the same area and quests over like i have in wow numerous times i keep rolling alts.
So to say people wont stay with a game tht has vo and story and choice added to the quest grind is ridiculous.
truth is themepark mmos on the whole do better then sandbox games
by the way u cant get rid of questin in an mmorpg quests are part of what make an rpg bioware turning those into story based quest wth choice and consequences adds to the intrigue of the quest.
Before WoW, themeparks and sandboxes were pretty close. If Blizzard would have gone the sandbox route, who knows what could have happened?
It wouldn't have done as well, I can tell you that right now.
Uhm . . . actually . . . no you can't. You can guess that it might have done well, but you can't tell me with any reliability that it would have done well. Based on how well most sandbox games do today, it could even be argued that WoW would not even exist if it had gone that route. A big part of why WoW is so successful is because it can be treated as a game instead of working it like a second job, while most sandbox games are exactly the opposite.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
im playing dragon age 2 and i know the story will be pretty much the same based on my choices. even if i play as a diffrent class then i am now and i still wanna re roll as a diffrent class knowing its the same content.
i totally love the companion character meriill and its the coolest thing i have ever experianced in any video game ive ever played putting this in an mmo will be so awesome.
The fact that just like dragon age and mass effect when u go by npcs u can hear them chatting with each other will be a cool twist also.
Look peole play themepark mmos cause even if it is gear grind at the end they have a set thing to do and even runnign the same area and quests over like i have in wow numerous times i keep rolling alts.
So to say people wont stay with a game tht has vo and story and choice added to the quest grind is ridiculous.
truth is themepark mmos on the whole do better then sandbox games
by the way u cant get rid of questin in an mmorpg quests are part of what make an rpg bioware turning those into story based quest wth choice and consequences adds to the intrigue of the quest.
Before WoW, themeparks and sandboxes were pretty close. If Blizzard would have gone the sandbox route, who knows what could have happened?
It wouldn't have done as well, I can tell you that right now.
Uhm . . . actually . . . no you can't. You can guess that it might have done well, but you can't tell me with any reliability that it would have done well. Based on how well most sandbox games do today, it could even be argued that WoW would not even exist if it had gone that route. A big part of why WoW is so successful is because it can be treated as a game instead of working it like a second job, while most sandbox games are exactly the opposite.
You're right. I can't really say for sure, but it sure does seem more likely that it wouldn't have done as good as it did if it went for sandbox-style gameplay. The themepark was the best suited way to go for it. I agree with you that WoW got many things right, one of them being the accessibility.
im playing dragon age 2 and i know the story will be pretty much the same based on my choices. even if i play as a diffrent class then i am now and i still wanna re roll as a diffrent class knowing its the same content.
i totally love the companion character meriill and its the coolest thing i have ever experianced in any video game ive ever played putting this in an mmo will be so awesome.
The fact that just like dragon age and mass effect when u go by npcs u can hear them chatting with each other will be a cool twist also.
Look peole play themepark mmos cause even if it is gear grind at the end they have a set thing to do and even runnign the same area and quests over like i have in wow numerous times i keep rolling alts.
So to say people wont stay with a game tht has vo and story and choice added to the quest grind is ridiculous.
truth is themepark mmos on the whole do better then sandbox games
by the way u cant get rid of questin in an mmorpg quests are part of what make an rpg bioware turning those into story based quest wth choice and consequences adds to the intrigue of the quest.
Before WoW, themeparks and sandboxes were pretty close. If Blizzard would have gone the sandbox route, who knows what could have happened?
It wouldn't have done as well, I can tell you that right now.
Uhm . . . actually . . . no you can't. You can guess that it might have done well, but you can't tell me with any reliability that it would have done well. Based on how well most sandbox games do today, it could even be argued that WoW would not even exist if it had gone that route. A big part of why WoW is so successful is because it can be treated as a game instead of working it like a second job, while most sandbox games are exactly the opposite.
Correct. The reason for WoWs success had nothing to do with sandbox vs themepark. It was accessible with tons of content and polished till it shined. Not to mention the timing was great. IMO it was a fluke. They did all the right things at the right time. They probably could have done the same thing but rather than use the EQ model, use the UO one. I guarantee there would be a lot more variety in the genre today if they had.
Correct. The reason for WoWs success had nothing to do with sandbox vs themepark. It was accessible with tons of content and polished till it shined. Not to mention the timing was great. IMO it was a fluke. They did all the right things at the right time. They probably could have done the same thing but rather than use the EQ model, use the UO one. I guarantee there would be a lot more variety in the genre today if they had.
Agreed. WoW was a perfect storm situation. The game arrived into a fairly barren marketplace & filled a void a lot of people did not realise existed and on that basis they built a large loyal fanbase. Nowdays the market is crowded and I doubt one game will ever swoop in and grab up as much MMO market share as WoW has done.
You ought to be worried that they think the WoW model of MMO works.
And trust me, many long-term players are sick of WoW's mechanics. The fact that the only new gameplay mechanic Blizzard could churn up for Cata was Archaeology is sad in and of itself, and that is something which has been the death of WoW for some.
You go on to compare BiowarEA to Trion in what they are doing... well as Trion found out, player retention is a lot harder than getting people to buy your game. Putting it plainly: a game is screwed if it's too much like WoW with nothing alternative to offer.
So SWTOR has an advantage that way in that it will be a great story. But how long will it keep the players paying, that is the question*.
*doesn't apply to hardcore SW fans of course - they will play the game for the IP.
This is true.
A number of them played that POS SWG for a few yrs. If something that buggy and devoid of actual content can survive, then this game is going to do pretty good.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Exactly the same can be said for all the WoW-clones that failed too.
What's your point?
As for SWTOR, I've got it preordered and can't wait for it to come out. I'm not looking forward to it because of its similarities to WoW, but for it's differences - the storylines and the size of the world, plus the fact that it's not straight fantasy. Having played dozens of MMOs of many different types, I'm pretty sure that the SWTOR's similarities to WoW are going to be pretty superficial, in the same way that the similarities between Quake and Battlefield 3 will be pretty superficial.
I sure hope so but as it stands, I see very little that is different.
My point, that you replied to in the first place, was to refute SaintViktor's claim that "WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven."
As for SWTOR not being very different to WoW, well we'll see. If it's a carbon copy then it's not the end of the world; it'll just become another game I've played and moved on from. But having played many games that get dismissed as WoW-clones and found very little in common between them, I expect that the same will be true for SWTOR. If it's not then it's no big deal.
To be honest I don't think the problem is with new MMOs, I think the problem is with WoW, it's players and the fact they've burnt out so badly on it. I think a lot of them are so locked into the WoW mindset that they can't see past similarities to WoW and can't play games in a different way to how they played WoW, regardless of the fact that hardly any MMOs actually play like WoW.
In every game I've played there have always been people complaining about the lack of autoattack, the lack of raid progression, the inability to queue attacks and basically anything else that MMOs don't do the same way as WoW. I wonder how many of them now claim to be tired of "WoW clones" without having played any other MMOs as anything other than WoW clones. It's interesting to see how many WoW clone complainers are playing Rift until GW2 comes out, when there are plenty of other games out there that don't play like WoW.
Correct. The reason for WoWs success had nothing to do with sandbox vs themepark. It was accessible with tons of content and polished till it shined. Not to mention the timing was great. IMO it was a fluke. They did all the right things at the right time. They probably could have done the same thing but rather than use the EQ model, use the UO one. I guarantee there would be a lot more variety in the genre today if they had.
Agreed. WoW was a perfect storm situation. The game arrived into a fairly barren marketplace & filled a void a lot of people did not realise existed and on that basis they built a large loyal fanbase. Nowdays the market is crowded and I doubt one game will ever swoop in and grab up as much MMO market share as WoW has done.
Add to that a completely different subscription system in the Far East that they seem to really like and you do indeed have that "perfect storm" situation.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
The problem here is that WoW is around a decade old. Its mechanics are also that old. There's nothing really wrong with that. Rift has done well for itself. But I cant think of another WoW clone that has.
I have to wonder if even Blizzard holds to this philosophy. In regards to their new project " Titan ", I really wonder if its going to have the same mechanics as WoW. I wouldnt be surprised if they pushed the envelope a little bit.
And since when was innovation, creativity, and originality stupid? Yes building their mechanics around WoW will probably work for them, but its not going to shock and awe people either.
You live in a small town. There is only a burger joint. Thats all the town has got and they do good business because people eat lunch. If you open another burger joint and say, " Hey! Hey! We have burgers too! " you'll do some business. But most people will continue to get their burgers where they've been getting them. Open a Mexican food restaurant? Watch the money pile in.
OP you may think this is a +1 for Bioware, but I see it as a -5 . From a company that seemingly pushed innovation and originality for so long, this is just dissapointing to see.
Showing respect for a successful gaming company does not mean the game they will play as per. Bioware is using the example with respect to approach and professionalism their game based on waht I have seen of their portfolio will be far far better as far as a game goes.
It may not be as dumbed down which may loose them a few subs but in general . The OP makes a good point I think your response is just ignorant you opinion but not ading a lot.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
If WoW was your first MMO, I have a hard time taking you seroiusly, or even listening to your opinion at all, especially if that is all you compare games to. WoW basically changed (read as ruined) the MMO community forever. Every game is now Barrens chat in every world/general channel. Games are easy mode, theme park, boring ass garbage, for the most part. And people just eat it up, because they are casual tards that don't know how to actually PLAY a game. Games are being made for non-gamers, it sucks.
SWTOR is no different. Just throw in some SW models and a Bioware single player story, and you have the game. However, WoW played better, was smoother and was a better game when I played it. SWTOR is going to dissapoint a lot of people I think (especially with all the hype behind it), and even people that like it, I doubt will be playing it after a couple months (and you finish all the story stuff).
I was hyped for Dragon Age from all the media of this fantasy RPG. I got it for PS3, and quit due to soo many cutscenes. I just couldnt take a "Movie with gameplay elements". thats just not my thing. I figured these same minded people would move on to make SWTOR into a similar "Movie with massive multiplayer gameplay elements".
But after reading this comment that somebody linked in another thread, Bioware has earned some respect back.
"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Zeschuk said. {source...}"
This here show a mindset that Bioware arent simplay a studio made up of Ego Driven Blind WoW Haters like Mythic was with Warhammer (ironic I know), and how Anet and ZombieLabs are. They remind me of Trion, the developers seem to understand that most of these WoW players dont HATE WOW, they simply tired of it and want something new. Developers with this mindset seem to do well.
+Bioware.
I dont expect SWTOR to be a WoW killer or anything, but it sure will make a good replacement if done well. I still have some issues with the development, thats why I support criticism of the game. It will help improve this game greatly as it did for Trion.
So Bioware gained your respect by saying (rough translation) "We know that mmos, as they are now, suck... but we're going to copy the crappy formula because the great unwashed is happy with it - and that's where the money is. We could do something better and more fun and even, in the long run once the gw recognizes its merits, more profitable.. but we're not going to do it because we're money grubbing play-it-safe bean counters." /wave to the elderly stock-holders living in secluded bases in antarcitca/patagonia/namibia
So Bioware gained your respect by saying (rough translation) "We know that mmos, as they are now, suck... but we're going to copy the crappy formula because the great unwashed is happy with it - and that's where the money is. We could do something better and more fun and even, in the long run once the gw recognizes its merits, more profitable.. but we're not going to do it because we're money grubbing play-it-safe bean counters." /wave to the elderly stock-holders living in secluded bases in antarcitca/patagonia/namibia
You're weird.
The least you GW2 fans could do is be discrete about worshiping it.
If WoW was your first MMO, I have a hard time taking you seroiusly, or even listening to your opinion at all, especially if that is all you compare games to. WoW basically changed (read as ruined) the MMO community forever. Every game is now Barrens chat in every world/general channel. Games are easy mode, theme park, boring ass garbage, for the most part. And people just eat it up, because they are casual tards that don't know how to actually PLAY a game. Games are being made for non-gamers, it sucks.
SWTOR is no different. Just throw in some SW models and a Bioware single player story, and you have the game. However, WoW played better, was smoother and was a better game when I played it. SWTOR is going to dissapoint a lot of people I think (especially with all the hype behind it), and even people that like it, I doubt will be playing it after a couple months (and you finish all the story stuff).
I would like to know where and when you played StarWarsTOR ??? because I would like to know what experiance you've had playing the game to base your opinion on . If your speculating in such a way based on nothing but hearsay and articles you've read I think your the later half of your statement has made you look a bit pathetic and stupid .
I would agree though games seam to be developed more and more for casual play and a lot of this is down to the WoW effect but that what happens when a genre goes from being a niche to mainstream sadly . Even so the original WoW was a lot more difficult than the game is in its current state and Vanilla did offer some real challenge . I have no problem with people who played that as thier first mmo .Remember a lot of them went onto try different mmos after that many of which arn't so casual .
For the record my first mmo was Ultima and my current ones are EVE and Lotro . I spent several years in WoW and loved it but for me the game got to the point where it was so easy it was unplayable I then moved on.
So Bioware gained your respect by saying (rough translation) "We know that mmos, as they are now, suck... but we're going to copy the crappy formula because the great unwashed is happy with it - and that's where the money is. We could do something better and more fun and even, in the long run once the gw recognizes its merits, more profitable.. but we're not going to do it because we're money grubbing play-it-safe bean counters." /wave to the elderly stock-holders living in secluded bases in antarcitca/patagonia/namibia
You're weird.
The least you GW2 fans could do is be discrete about worshiping it.
Time will tell...
I've folowed MMOs from MUDs onward man. I've seen games get hyped up and fall. I've been wrong with my predictions too many times I care to mention but each mistake gave me more experience (something the classical grinders will care to apreciate). I'll tell you one thing. The time has passed, 10 years too late but it did pass... SWTOR's basic concept is archaic. It was archaic at the time of WoW but that game carried through by the simple fact that it was the first mmo that had actual basic gameplay that would appeal to wide audience (talking about client stability and ai). SWTOR can be polished to kingdom come and have the greatest story ever.. but it's a dud. It's like making a 100 mil $ Ginger and Fred top hats musical in the 60's . It will get its money back through hype sales but that's pretty much it. A dinosaur.
As for GW2 fanboyism... I'm a fan of several other upcoming games listed on this site which are actually moving the genre forward from its stagnation. SWTOR isn't. It's a dinosaur. It's huge it's MORE MORE MORE of the same old concept that's been holding the cliff edge by it's nailtips. It's just sad. I hope the game doesn't flop and that all the folks who invested time and money in it don't get shafted but i truly doubt it's going to be anything revolutionary (read "massively profitable").
As for trolling, I make a point of not commenting SWTOR's forums. To each his own, I suppose. However, the title of the thread lured me in because I thought that Bioware finally revealed something, ANYTHING new and improving to the same old formula. Imagine my surprise and indignation when I realized that MMOexposed is actually PRAISING Bioware for being cowardly unimaginative money-grubbers.... Jeez what crap am I going to read yet on this site?
Sorry but in my opinion I think it is pretty stupid to say you need to make a WoW clone to be successful. WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven.
This.
The last 5+ years of mmo slump have proven EXACTLY the opposite of what Bioware and all the other smartass suits have been saying. The message is: "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW." It's been proven empirically 100%. Jeez.... How many billions of dollars you have to burn before you finally admit the facts? Or is it just "Oh, we just need a bigger hammer." game?
Comments
Uhgg, this is the same obstacle every company faces, this is the end all be all of a successful MMO. Bioware has to face this reality, Anet has to face this reality, Carbine has to, as does every other upcoming MMO's development team.
The answer is offering things players can do together, PVP, guild functionality, group content, etc... Every element of this revolves aroud chasing carrots, be it a sandbox game or themepark, you have to offer something players want to achieve. Be it a sprawling metropolis, or a lengendary weapon of badassery.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
That other element will just have to settle for something else.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
WoW was recognized as a touchstone, not a blueprint. All the person being quoted was saying was that the basic features in WoW need to be in almost every MMO to be successful. The mechanics behind those features can be qutie different though. For instance, crafting in WoW is done by you. You farming or buying resources, you crafting, you selling, and it is all instant gratification once you have the supplies you need because crafting itself takes no time at all. In SWTOR, you can have your companion gather the resources from fallen targets if you want, you can send your companion out on missions to gather resources, you can have your companion do the crafting and the crafting actually takes a while so you really get the feeling you are creating something. The whole time YOU ARE OUT ADVENTURING. From this example alone you can see that the touchstone was reached, but it was never used as a blueprint.
You can see this fact in most of the features of SWTOR. It seems to me that what BioWare really is trying to do is take WoW and not only meet the basic standards it represents, but to greatly surpass them. Some people may not like this, but anyone denying it is either purposefully blind or completely unwilling to read.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
@Distopia
The lightsabre is a pretty awesome carrot, I have to admit.
I had the crazy vision of a lightsabre hilt hanging from the end of a wooden stick lol.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
It wouldn't have done as well, I can tell you that right now.
LOL, I think I'd follow that around myself.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
What do i see when they say WoW standards, i see the following
Quest based game
Polish
open worlds.
Progression usually levels
End-game content
Intuitive easy to use UI
I don't think it means combat style though it could
I really don't think it has anything to do with artstyle or repeating content over and over again and we know it's not lack of customization or housing as both are in spades in swtor, and it would be pretty dumb to say it's a bad idea to break these rules then go ahead and break em yourself. Thats like calling yourself dumb and being serious about it.
The one thing i think they are donig thats dumb that Blizzard doesn't do is PR. Sorry i'm a bioware fan and i can tell. You need to know how to talk to your public on a number of occasions, the above included they have said something that just made me /facepalm, the Bioware devs are nice guys, they are business people, they know how to make games the public enjoys. They don't know how to talk to their public though, Bioware. Hire some PR people, don't let the devs do it
Regardless we already know what wow offers and we know that SW:TOR offers armor that can be customized with mods to allow you to equip almost anything for even the highest of content you can even mod a tusken raider outfit or mere social armor to the extent that you can run around in raids with it.
we know (or should) that PvP isn't simply just kill X number, in instance PvP you are auto adjusted to apporiate levels so your more in the skill range rather then they just stomp you because you can't hit someone 10 levels above you and they can just stemroll you (this is different from WoW). Now i don't know how wintergrasp works as thats what most people refer to but i'm pretty sure the mechanic of giving people bonuses to make it more even for the underdog like launchers isn't in that game.
Second, until very recently (ala cata) the quests were completely linear and text based where as here they branch and talk, we also know that this only works up to a certain level in cata and then your back to same ol same ol WoW, we know this continues throughout the entirety of ToR.
Third, i haven't heard anything about being able to not only join but affect someone elses quest wether you have that quest or not.
I've seen some of cata story driven quests via youtube, they don't compare you have the normal sprites just stating their lines. Here you have them not only interacting but responding. In wow they are running on a script that is preprogramed that the player can't even interact in.
Fourth this is only minor and this could just be my own gripe but combat feels really weird when you swing through someones sheild or sword, at least Bioware here tries to improve upon that to the extent that your sword actually hits and responds when it hits. Thats so much better imo, far as i know WoW still doesn't do this.
Touchstone just means you should work off that.
Progression (usually levels)
some kind of end-game
Maybe trinity, though Bioware has broken away from classes being X class, but the trinity is still there, just that you have ways around that, like not waiting for X class to complete, or that a class you pick can be various thuings
Polish is a big one. You have a buggy game, you deserve to get a bad rating (sorry guys lack of money or people don't count)
Quests
That sort of thing, you build off of that. Now i'm all for new things as long as they equal fun times ahead, some things are standards like intutive UI thats a standard WoW set, you make your UI easy to use
You do like FF14 and you here griping galore such as you made too many menus, why does B or I not lead to my inventory. Why do i have to do all this stuff just to get to my skills. Thats diverting from the standard and that can lead to bad things. You make your UI easy to use thats more important then almost anything. I or B leads to your inventory, skills should be easy to get to usually hotkeyed to your number keys, health and mana (if applicable) should be easy to find usually near the character profile. Don't do like DCUO either and make it hard to chat that will hurt you to. Very easy to see what things you shouldn't diver from.
It's not about making a direct copy of WoW, it's going with things people expect when you go into an MMO. Start diverting too much away and your customers start to dislike it. It leads to people going huh? to open your inventory you have to....triple click on your character? what kind of way to open your inventory is that? Sure these are different ways to go about it. Just some of them are also horrible. Don't mess with the UI and make it hard for your player to do tasks they do all the time. Don't make your game lack content, don't leave it a buggy game. In short don't make your game a disaster just to make it different from WoW. Cause you'll be different from wow alright. Where as they have millions of subs, you'll have none.
Thats not to say you shouldn't innovate, you should and Bioware is (yes they are, and you can't deny it and no point splitting hairs) but you need to be careful how you innovate, tried to do it one way and your public hates it, guess what you hurt your product, the problem with MMOs is if people hate your game for whatever reason, not only is years (not year or months but years) worth of work are down the drain, but now your company is mud, just ask Square Enix.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Uhm . . . actually . . . no you can't. You can guess that it might have done well, but you can't tell me with any reliability that it would have done well. Based on how well most sandbox games do today, it could even be argued that WoW would not even exist if it had gone that route. A big part of why WoW is so successful is because it can be treated as a game instead of working it like a second job, while most sandbox games are exactly the opposite.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
You're right. I can't really say for sure, but it sure does seem more likely that it wouldn't have done as good as it did if it went for sandbox-style gameplay. The themepark was the best suited way to go for it. I agree with you that WoW got many things right, one of them being the accessibility.
Correct. The reason for WoWs success had nothing to do with sandbox vs themepark. It was accessible with tons of content and polished till it shined. Not to mention the timing was great. IMO it was a fluke. They did all the right things at the right time. They probably could have done the same thing but rather than use the EQ model, use the UO one. I guarantee there would be a lot more variety in the genre today if they had.
Agreed. WoW was a perfect storm situation. The game arrived into a fairly barren marketplace & filled a void a lot of people did not realise existed and on that basis they built a large loyal fanbase. Nowdays the market is crowded and I doubt one game will ever swoop in and grab up as much MMO market share as WoW has done.
This is true.
A number of them played that POS SWG for a few yrs. If something that buggy and devoid of actual content can survive, then this game is going to do pretty good.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
My point, that you replied to in the first place, was to refute SaintViktor's claim that "WoW clone's usually fail within a year, this has already been proven."
As for SWTOR not being very different to WoW, well we'll see. If it's a carbon copy then it's not the end of the world; it'll just become another game I've played and moved on from. But having played many games that get dismissed as WoW-clones and found very little in common between them, I expect that the same will be true for SWTOR. If it's not then it's no big deal.
To be honest I don't think the problem is with new MMOs, I think the problem is with WoW, it's players and the fact they've burnt out so badly on it. I think a lot of them are so locked into the WoW mindset that they can't see past similarities to WoW and can't play games in a different way to how they played WoW, regardless of the fact that hardly any MMOs actually play like WoW.
In every game I've played there have always been people complaining about the lack of autoattack, the lack of raid progression, the inability to queue attacks and basically anything else that MMOs don't do the same way as WoW. I wonder how many of them now claim to be tired of "WoW clones" without having played any other MMOs as anything other than WoW clones. It's interesting to see how many WoW clone complainers are playing Rift until GW2 comes out, when there are plenty of other games out there that don't play like WoW.
Precisely.
Add to that a completely different subscription system in the Far East that they seem to really like and you do indeed have that "perfect storm" situation.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Showing respect for a successful gaming company does not mean the game they will play as per. Bioware is using the example with respect to approach and professionalism their game based on waht I have seen of their portfolio will be far far better as far as a game goes.
It may not be as dumbed down which may loose them a few subs but in general . The OP makes a good point I think your response is just ignorant you opinion but not ading a lot.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
If WoW was your first MMO, I have a hard time taking you seroiusly, or even listening to your opinion at all, especially if that is all you compare games to. WoW basically changed (read as ruined) the MMO community forever. Every game is now Barrens chat in every world/general channel. Games are easy mode, theme park, boring ass garbage, for the most part. And people just eat it up, because they are casual tards that don't know how to actually PLAY a game. Games are being made for non-gamers, it sucks.
SWTOR is no different. Just throw in some SW models and a Bioware single player story, and you have the game. However, WoW played better, was smoother and was a better game when I played it. SWTOR is going to dissapoint a lot of people I think (especially with all the hype behind it), and even people that like it, I doubt will be playing it after a couple months (and you finish all the story stuff).
So Bioware gained your respect by saying (rough translation) "We know that mmos, as they are now, suck... but we're going to copy the crappy formula because the great unwashed is happy with it - and that's where the money is. We could do something better and more fun and even, in the long run once the gw recognizes its merits, more profitable.. but we're not going to do it because we're money grubbing play-it-safe bean counters." /wave to the elderly stock-holders living in secluded bases in antarcitca/patagonia/namibia
You're weird.
The least you GW2 fans could do is be discrete about worshiping it.
I would like to know where and when you played StarWarsTOR ??? because I would like to know what experiance you've had playing the game to base your opinion on . If your speculating in such a way based on nothing but hearsay and articles you've read I think your the later half of your statement has made you look a bit pathetic and stupid .
I would agree though games seam to be developed more and more for casual play and a lot of this is down to the WoW effect but that what happens when a genre goes from being a niche to mainstream sadly . Even so the original WoW was a lot more difficult than the game is in its current state and Vanilla did offer some real challenge . I have no problem with people who played that as thier first mmo .Remember a lot of them went onto try different mmos after that many of which arn't so casual .
For the record my first mmo was Ultima and my current ones are EVE and Lotro . I spent several years in WoW and loved it but for me the game got to the point where it was so easy it was unplayable I then moved on.
I've been in testing for over a month now.....listen to the hype its that good.
Time will tell...
I've folowed MMOs from MUDs onward man. I've seen games get hyped up and fall. I've been wrong with my predictions too many times I care to mention but each mistake gave me more experience (something the classical grinders will care to apreciate). I'll tell you one thing. The time has passed, 10 years too late but it did pass... SWTOR's basic concept is archaic. It was archaic at the time of WoW but that game carried through by the simple fact that it was the first mmo that had actual basic gameplay that would appeal to wide audience (talking about client stability and ai). SWTOR can be polished to kingdom come and have the greatest story ever.. but it's a dud. It's like making a 100 mil $ Ginger and Fred top hats musical in the 60's . It will get its money back through hype sales but that's pretty much it. A dinosaur.
As for GW2 fanboyism... I'm a fan of several other upcoming games listed on this site which are actually moving the genre forward from its stagnation. SWTOR isn't. It's a dinosaur. It's huge it's MORE MORE MORE of the same old concept that's been holding the cliff edge by it's nailtips. It's just sad. I hope the game doesn't flop and that all the folks who invested time and money in it don't get shafted but i truly doubt it's going to be anything revolutionary (read "massively profitable").
As for trolling, I make a point of not commenting SWTOR's forums. To each his own, I suppose. However, the title of the thread lured me in because I thought that Bioware finally revealed something, ANYTHING new and improving to the same old formula. Imagine my surprise and indignation when I realized that MMOexposed is actually PRAISING Bioware for being cowardly unimaginative money-grubbers.... Jeez what crap am I going to read yet on this site?
This.
The last 5+ years of mmo slump have proven EXACTLY the opposite of what Bioware and all the other smartass suits have been saying. The message is: "If you want to fail with a mmo, just copy WoW." It's been proven empirically 100%. Jeez.... How many billions of dollars you have to burn before you finally admit the facts? Or is it just "Oh, we just need a bigger hammer." game?