I'm writing this thread as a last ditch effort to find a home in the mmorpg genre. This is going to be an epic thread so I'll try to attach a TL:DR at the bottom. That being said, I will begin with a brief history of my mmorpg experience and what I'm looking for atm.
My history with mmo's started back in 97 with Ultima-Online, I was only a kid when it came out but my older brother got me into it and I was absolutely obsessed with it until around 02. I tried EQ1 out, but I quickly lost interest because the game felt very limited. Unlike the world I was use to I had to specialize my character from the get go, not even really knowing what I would like. I'll say the dungeon crawls at first were really awesome, the feeling of being in a group that depended on each other, the whole experience was a nice change from being mostly a soloist in UO. However, the monotony finally set in and I grew old of the pve grind and with no pvp to spice it up I found myself looking for something new.
I then discovered Asheron's Call I, there I was immediately reminded of what I had been missing. I played AC on and off from 01 till about 03. During this time I also took a look at Dark Ages of Camelot which was very similar in respect to EQ1, but the RVR really interested me and I ended up falling in love with it. I played DAOC from 03/04 until 06, and since then I have pretty much not found a game that I can play for longer than a month.
The list of games I have either beta'd and decided not to buy or played for the first month and canceled is epic. Just to name a few: Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call 2, EQ2, Lotro, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Vanguard, Aion, EVE, Darkfall and most recently Rift.
I did play WoW mostly because the raiding was actually fun when it was a challenge at least until I realized it was only a challenge because 90% of the player base are keyboard turning clickers.
TL:DR - I have been looking for a game where I don't need a full group of people in order to progress through, that has competitive PVP that isn't based solely on gear, that actually has real character developement and I'm not talking about those purple things you equip. Where the crafting plays an important role in the game instead of a gap closer between dungeon and raid gear or as consumables.
I greatly appreciate any advice and I look forward to hearing from you all!
The mmo RPG is dead. You nailed it. This is and has been, the time of the mmo VG.
Birth of the MMOVG:
When a certain mmorpg showed the world that you can be successful without housing, realistic player vs player environments (persistant territorial acquisition), and that there was no need for so many unique qualities between factions, that's when the genre completely shifted. Corporate investors who once looked for creative propositions for a new mmorpg, tossed that in the trash bin and started looking for ways to emulate what that certain game brought to the table. Developers wouldn't have much work without big corporate pay offs, and would end up being forced to be creative in order to be noticed. Now, they need only ensure that memory leaks are minimal while an instanced battleground is running.
You nailed it on the head. The old RPG (role play game) concept has been replaced by the term massively multi player online video game. They should be called mmoVG.
MMO VG = massively multiplayer online video game. Non-realistic factions, or none at all, instanced battlegrounds that make no difference on an entire faction whether the leet teams involved win or lose...nothing matters but the gear, yada yada yada. Even in some games, RP has warped into various forms of disturbed low IQ'd perversions called ERP (emotional RP), family RP (pst if you want to play mom), and college RP (which I don't even know wth that is).
There was a time in Dark Age of Camelot, when I would log in and it really mattered to PvP. Victories mattered. Populations could NOT log onto other realms (we had THREE factions). You invested time into your realm and it mattered. You designed your house, and helped allocate your guild house property so that it was aesthetically pleasing. Now even that game is a mess of memory leaks and realm hoppers on a 6 minute timer with gold spammers making more profit than Mythic subscriptions.
The genre is just a big video game now. Sorry to say.
I do agree that MMO's have changed and are traveling in a new direction, but that new direction is coming to an end. The reason I believe it's coming to an end is because of how quickly MMO's are failing these days. Every new mmo that has come out in the last 5 years has been more of a copy and paste job and very few mmo companies are being innovative.
I have to admit that there will always be similarities between mmo's, just like every new FPS that comes out still has the basic concept of point and click but as you can see especially from that genre that innovation is the key to success. I'm not saying I want UO2, I'm open to new things, but I haven't gotten anything new since WoW.
You're forgetting something. Yes they fail a lot more frequently, they also ARE a lot more frequent. Look on this site's list of MMOs, and count up all the currently active ones. Back in the days when EQ/UO/AC were the big dogs, there wasn't a tenth as many games on the market.
I will agree that I'd like to see more innovation. It's coming. Games like Rift and GW2 are adding little things, slowly. It's just not going to be "BAM! 100% new MMO everything different and awesome yay go!" It'll be gradual.
I'm not sure why a good product being produced faster than it was 5 years ago makes it fail more... The point I was trying to make is that new MMO's are all the same, how many times have you been playing ( Insert mmo that released in the last 5 years ) and had to explain something to someone in terms of how it related to WoW? Ok, sure some of the things WoW brought in were innovative and helped the games as a whole. I personally loved the auction house system, but asthetics don't make me subscribe.
Let's change examples for a second and look at the new and upcoming game genre of MOBA's. With Dota 1 being an underground very similar to UO in that regard and slowly over time creating a genre. Now we have 3 popular titles and a new super giant coming out. League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth, Dota 1, and soon to be Dota 2. Go look at the player base for Heroes of Newerth, and compare it to League of Legends. You will see that hands down League of Legends has 10x more players. The reason for that is because Heroes of Newerth is just a copy and paste of dota 1 with updated graphics and a few small asthetics here and there. However, league of legends pretty much took the idea and went in a totally new direction that players very very differently.
Originally posted by Vahrane Originally posted by azmundai
Originally posted by Vahrane
Originally posted by Distopia I just look at it like this, MMO's could have went in one of two ways, the way of the game, and the way of the simulation. The way of the game was the direction it took. You'll basically get two replies here, those who wish it had taken the route of a simulation, will say they agree with your view, those who are happy it went the path of the game, will say they disagree, and plenty of games have been fun. Game fans look for fun, sim fans look for deep game-play and realistic scenarios. I like both games and sims, so I really have no stake in this race.
I think a big part of the continued appearance of this sort of post on these boards is because they are inherently asking, "Why are newer games only taking one path when many gamers love the other or both?". It's somewhat baffling when you look at the fact that most all new releases since the mid 2000's have been 90% game releases and 10% sims. You'd think with such a large discrepancy more dev teams would be trying to rectify it. What's wrong with having both games and sims still?
because a "sim" can only stand to make 30% (estimate out of my ass) of the profit that a "game" could potentially make. forget that fact that 30% of 25% of what warcraft has made is probably more than any two other games in the past 10 years combine. they are all shooting for neptune, yet most of them dont get past the moon. it really is mind boggling .. but then look at the rest of the world economy these days .. If WoW or games like it are satisfying the majority of mmorpg gamers needs and wants but yet a percentage of the entire mmorpg market doesn't want a WoW type game but a more simulation focused game, whether it be sand box or themepark, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone providing that alternative product could garner 90 - 100% of that market of disinfranchised players? I've heard it been said before that WoW gamers ( mmogamers that started with WoW generally) are just that, WoW gamers. Many don't play anything but WoW according to gamers posts on this site. I know many WoW players that don't play any other mmorpg's except WoW personally.
im estimating that 30% of the entire MMO player base is interested in a "real" mmo. its just an estimate, but even if its 10% ... it would still stand to make a lot more than WAR, or the endless train of 1/2 baked games we have seen.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Ditto, Reading your experience pretty much sums up mine as well. Perhaps developers are to blame but at times I get so flustered with my own "pickiness" that I cannot help wonder if it is not just us that became jaded.
Id say The Secret World is shaping up to be what a lot of us old schoolers are looking for. The big question mark is crafting/economy which is supposed to be unveiled in the next few months.
I just look at it like this, MMO's could have went in one of two ways, the way of the game, and the way of the simulation. The way of the game was the direction it took.
You'll basically get two replies here, those who wish it had taken the route of a simulation, will say they agree with your view, those who are happy it went the path of the game, will say they disagree, and plenty of games have been fun.
Game fans look for fun, sim fans look for deep game-play and realistic scenarios. I like both games and sims, so I really have no stake in this race.
I think a big part of the continued appearance of this sort of post on these boards is because they are inherently asking, "Why are newer games only taking one path when many gamers love the other or both?". It's somewhat baffling when you look at the fact that most all new releases since the mid 2000's have been 90% game releases and 10% sims. You'd think with such a large discrepancy more dev teams would be trying to rectify it. What's wrong with having both games and sims still?
because a "sim" can only stand to make 30% (estimate out of my ass) of the profit that a "game" could potentially make. forget that fact that 30% of 25% of what warcraft has made is probably more than any two other games in the past 10 years combine. they are all shooting for neptune, yet most of them dont get past the moon. it really is mind boggling .. but then look at the rest of the world economy these days ..
If WoW or games like it are satisfying the majority of mmorpg gamers needs and wants but yet a percentage of the entire mmorpg market doesn't want a WoW type game but a more simulation focused game, whether it be sand box or themepark, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone providing that alternative product could garner 90 - 100% of that market of disinfranchised players? I've heard it been said before that WoW gamers ( mmogamers that started with WoW generally) are just that, WoW gamers. Many don't play anything but WoW according to gamers posts on this site. I know many WoW players that don't play any other mmorpg's except WoW personally.
im estimating that 30% of the entire MMO player base is interested in a "real" mmo. its just an estimate, but even if its 10% ... it would still stand to make a lot more than WAR, or the endless train of 1/2 baked games we have seen.
Ahh ok, so you're saying current dev teams are going for the whole pie instead of just a piece?
I do agree that MMO's have changed and are traveling in a new direction, but that new direction is coming to an end. The reason I believe it's coming to an end is because of how quickly MMO's are failing these days. Every new mmo that has come out in the last 5 years has been more of a copy and paste job and very few mmo companies are being innovative.
I have to admit that there will always be similarities between mmo's, just like every new FPS that comes out still has the basic concept of point and click but as you can see especially from that genre that innovation is the key to success. I'm not saying I want UO2, I'm open to new things, but I haven't gotten anything new since WoW.
You're forgetting something. Yes they fail a lot more frequently, they also ARE a lot more frequent. Look on this site's list of MMOs, and count up all the currently active ones. Back in the days when EQ/UO/AC were the big dogs, there wasn't a tenth as many games on the market.
I will agree that I'd like to see more innovation. It's coming. Games like Rift and GW2 are adding little things, slowly. It's just not going to be "BAM! 100% new MMO everything different and awesome yay go!" It'll be gradual.
I'm not sure why a good product being produced faster than it was 5 years ago makes it fail more... The point I was trying to make is that new MMO's are all the same, how many times have you been playing ( Insert mmo that released in the last 5 years ) and had to explain something to someone in terms of how it related to WoW? Ok, sure some of the things WoW brought in were innovative and helped the games as a whole. I personally loved the auction house system, but asthetics don't make me subscribe.
Let's change examples for a second and look at the new and upcoming game genre of MOBA's. With Dota 1 being an underground very similar to UO in that regard and slowly over time creating a genre. Now we have 3 popular titles and a new super giant coming out. League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth, Dota 1, and soon to be Dota 2. Go look at the player base for Heroes of Newerth, and compare it to League of Legends. You will see that hands down League of Legends has 10x more players. The reason for that is because Heroes of Newerth is just a copy and paste of dota 1 with updated graphics and a few small asthetics here and there. However, league of legends pretty much took the idea and went in a totally new direction that players very very differently.
No I get your point. What you seemed to imply though was the reason so many games failed is because they were just wow clones. That's only part of it. Part of the reason so many fail is because there are so many MORE. Even moreso than the growing number of players.
Think of it this way. Say your town has a Starbucks on one street corner. Great. awesome. Yay coffee. Now, some other guy opens a coffee shop called Starjucks. Another opens down the street named Starborks. Soon you have 99 coffee shops in a town that only used to need 1. They're all pretty similar...but worse yet there's just way more coffee shops than there is a need for them. So some will not get business, and many will close.
You're right that the ones that make themselves stand out stand a better chance of survival, but un the end the winners will be the ones that are
Ditto, Reading your experience pretty much sums up mine as well. Perhaps developers are to blame but at times I get so flustered with my own "pickiness" that I cannot help wonder if it is not just us that became jaded.
I've read alot of posts on this site basically bullet pointing what made the older games stand out in comparison to newer games and it seems to me that it's mainly the developers. There have been many good mechanics and systems that people enjoyed in games of the past that have never been reintroduced. Coyote recently nailed quite a few in his article here.
Originally posted by Vahrane Originally posted by azmundai
Originally posted by Vahrane
Originally posted by azmundai
Originally posted by Vahrane
Originally posted by Distopia I just look at it like this, MMO's could have went in one of two ways, the way of the game, and the way of the simulation. The way of the game was the direction it took. You'll basically get two replies here, those who wish it had taken the route of a simulation, will say they agree with your view, those who are happy it went the path of the game, will say they disagree, and plenty of games have been fun. Game fans look for fun, sim fans look for deep game-play and realistic scenarios. I like both games and sims, so I really have no stake in this race.
I think a big part of the continued appearance of this sort of post on these boards is because they are inherently asking, "Why are newer games only taking one path when many gamers love the other or both?". It's somewhat baffling when you look at the fact that most all new releases since the mid 2000's have been 90% game releases and 10% sims. You'd think with such a large discrepancy more dev teams would be trying to rectify it. What's wrong with having both games and sims still?
because a "sim" can only stand to make 30% (estimate out of my ass) of the profit that a "game" could potentially make. forget that fact that 30% of 25% of what warcraft has made is probably more than any two other games in the past 10 years combine. they are all shooting for neptune, yet most of them dont get past the moon. it really is mind boggling .. but then look at the rest of the world economy these days ..
If WoW or games like it are satisfying the majority of mmorpg gamers needs and wants but yet a percentage of the entire mmorpg market doesn't want a WoW type game but a more simulation focused game, whether it be sand box or themepark, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone providing that alternative product could garner 90 - 100% of that market of disinfranchised players? I've heard it been said before that WoW gamers ( mmogamers that started with WoW generally) are just that, WoW gamers. Many don't play anything but WoW according to gamers posts on this site. I know many WoW players that don't play any other mmorpg's except WoW personally.
im estimating that 30% of the entire MMO player base is interested in a "real" mmo. its just an estimate, but even if its 10% ... it would still stand to make a lot more than WAR, or the endless train of 1/2 baked games we have seen. Ahh ok, so you're saying current dev teams are going for the whole pie instead of just a piece?
basically.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Ahh ok, so you're saying current dev teams are going for the whole pie instead of just a piece?
basically.
Fiscally, it's the smarter choice. Niche market games don't make as much money, therefore aren't likely to attract big investors, and therefore won't get off the ground. Appealing to a shallow, yet wider pool of gamers tends to be more profitable.
I do agree that MMO's have changed and are traveling in a new direction, but that new direction is coming to an end. The reason I believe it's coming to an end is because of how quickly MMO's are failing these days. Every new mmo that has come out in the last 5 years has been more of a copy and paste job and very few mmo companies are being innovative.
I have to admit that there will always be similarities between mmo's, just like every new FPS that comes out still has the basic concept of point and click but as you can see especially from that genre that innovation is the key to success. I'm not saying I want UO2, I'm open to new things, but I haven't gotten anything new since WoW.
You're forgetting something. Yes they fail a lot more frequently, they also ARE a lot more frequent. Look on this site's list of MMOs, and count up all the currently active ones. Back in the days when EQ/UO/AC were the big dogs, there wasn't a tenth as many games on the market.
I will agree that I'd like to see more innovation. It's coming. Games like Rift and GW2 are adding little things, slowly. It's just not going to be "BAM! 100% new MMO everything different and awesome yay go!" It'll be gradual.
I'm not sure why a good product being produced faster than it was 5 years ago makes it fail more... The point I was trying to make is that new MMO's are all the same, how many times have you been playing ( Insert mmo that released in the last 5 years ) and had to explain something to someone in terms of how it related to WoW? Ok, sure some of the things WoW brought in were innovative and helped the games as a whole. I personally loved the auction house system, but asthetics don't make me subscribe.
Let's change examples for a second and look at the new and upcoming game genre of MOBA's. With Dota 1 being an underground very similar to UO in that regard and slowly over time creating a genre. Now we have 3 popular titles and a new super giant coming out. League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth, Dota 1, and soon to be Dota 2. Go look at the player base for Heroes of Newerth, and compare it to League of Legends. You will see that hands down League of Legends has 10x more players. The reason for that is because Heroes of Newerth is just a copy and paste of dota 1 with updated graphics and a few small asthetics here and there. However, league of legends pretty much took the idea and went in a totally new direction that players very very differently.
No I get your point. What you seemed to imply though was the reason so many games failed is because they were just wow clones. That's only part of it. Part of the reason so many fail is because there are so many MORE. Even moreso than the growing number of players.
Think of it this way. Say your town has a Starbucks on one street corner. Great. awesome. Yay coffee. Now, some other guy opens a coffee shop called Starjucks. Another opens down the street named Starborks. Soon you have 99 coffee shops in a town that only used to need 1. They're all pretty similar...but worse yet there's just way more coffee shops than there is a need for them. So some will not get business, and many will close.
You're right that the ones that make themselves stand out stand a better chance of survival, but un the end the winners will be the ones that are
A) accessible to the largest amount of people
most well known.
C) cheapest
And that is why WoW won't die.
Apparently you haven't seen the latest quota from Blizzard. WoW is dying and they've already put the game on life support. They're now moving on to titan and their moba etc...
I agree that dev companies want to make money and that if you go back and look at older mmo's all you will see is how bad ass WoW did. But if you take even a small look under the surface you will see why WoW was successful and is starting to fade along with the 99 other coffee shops as you put it.
I really don't like that analogy either, I go to starbucks because it has better coffee than mcdonalds or other coffee shops in my area. If my starbucks started serving me coffee I didn't like anymore, and at the same time 98 new coffee shops sprang up with this new blend I don't like I would not go to any of them. Which is what we are seeing in the mmorpg genre, new coffee shops aren't able to get customers because their coffee sucks not because there are 100 of them.
You wont find any answers cause simply there are not any.
That being said welcome to the club of waiting a real RPGmmo and not mmorpg.
The next good truly good mmorpg wil be the one that will remind us what rpg is / stands for.
And that is the magic. The magic fewling of the world we were playing into, the magic hidden in a Depth in character development, many and meangfull choises, and loads loads loads of options for the players on what to do on their daily online visits.
Sadly i think it will take some years for the next good mmorpg to come so enjoy Skyrim meanwhile heh
When looking at it realistically, what you mean by "real MMOs" is "my personal definition of the only thing an MMO should be." In that light, you should be able to find your answer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMO's are dead. Even mmorpg is changing it's way of doing things allowing other genre's to inhabit the same pages so they dont die along with the MMO industry.
I loved vanilla wow, my first bat ride through tirisfal was awesome. Back then you could always find something to work on - even solo - on your character, there was world PVP - even if not lootable. Dungeon keys and hard to find recipes were so great in the day.
Loved UO and even saw a couple weeks ago some new shop stalls they had added to the game - it always has some new novelty or mechanic for players to engage with.
EvE Online is awesome, they engage the players and keep everything even the market totally enthralling - the only problem is that you're in a spaceship all the time, and I prefer fantasy.
IMO eve with swords and magic would rock. Game developers all want to copy wow, but don't have any inkling as to what makes me tick.
There's little/no exploration in mmo's, there's no magic to the game itself, it's dull lifeless and uninteresting.
atm, playing hon and waiting for dota 2 for some fun shenanigans, but apart from that I'm not even hoping archeage will approach what I want - no death penality AT ALL is kind of stupid in a game that allows pvp everywhere ?!?
If they put in some partial loot even, I'd be far happier with that game.
The player housing and other features as far as character creation look great, but ... we'll see.
I just look at it like this, MMO's could have went in one of two ways, the way of the game, and the way of the simulation. The way of the game was the direction it took.
You'll basically get two replies here, those who wish it had taken the route of a simulation, will say they agree with your view, those who are happy it went the path of the game, will say they disagree, and plenty of games have been fun.
Game fans look for fun, sim fans look for deep game-play and realistic scenarios. I like both games and sims, so I really have no stake in this race.
I'm not really sure I follow you here, I don't look at it as realistic, at least there's nothing realistic about dragons and magic in my day to day life. The direction that MMO's went imo are that of mass user base and subscritpions. Everquest was 10x bigger in terms of player base than UO or AC1 was. Blizzard simply saw that as a way to make more money and chose to follow that. Since then every new dev company has said the same thing, except it's starting to become ridiculous. What we need is a dev company that can change the direction for the better, instead of copying what's already boring.
When I say realistic scenarios I'm referring to things like running a shop, needing supply from scavengers, multiple forms of crafting, community interdependance. Basically everything that set UO or SWG apart from EQ and WOW.
We aren't going to get these games unfortunately. Companies can not grasp this idea. Instead their ideas are nothing but level and get gear, rinse and repeat for levels. The smaller developers only can grasp that full loot pvp is the way to go. There is no inbetween. The full loot pvp crowd is a very very small market while the inbetween crowd is much greater and will also pull from the other two(gear grinders and full loot crowd).
Games are about what can I do to make my character better during this 2hrs I have. What can I do that can possibly result in an increase to my character. No longer do developers care about social aspects of the MMO's and until that is corrected, we are going to see the same piles come out plan and simple.
None of the new/current games are as good as the old ones. And the old ones weren't as good as we'd like to remember.
Sure, many of those old games are still running, but we don't want to play them 'cause... well patch so-and-so ruined everything!
But what about games like Eve, Second Life or Darkfall? Yeah, those games have most (if not all) of the features we demand, but they're not good enough 'cause... well 'cause we have our reasons.
My MMORPG experience is pretty much the same as yours with probably x3 of the amount of games, which ofcourse are almost the same as eachother so maybe they really don't even count. What I can say to you is that if you have the time and can find a cool group of people, tabletop D&D Forgotten realms 3.5 ruleset or less is probably the only thing that will satisfy you at the moment. That is however, quite a few if's lol
I think in about 5-10 years there will be a game out there for you. Dev's are starting to become creative and innovative enough to work within the corporate establishment.
Same boat right down to feeling like a longbeard before my time. I started in WoW and quit because it was about instant gratification. Right now i am looking for what you want but as far as combat i want it to be more of a struggle than Oblivions; don't get me wrong it was a glorious game in its fights but diversity mechanics for each class, and being a tad weaker would beat all for me. The actual professions bit would be BA. Its all MMO no RPG; each IP ustilized takes back seat to the multiplayer aspect and the game suffers for it.
I wish we had an MMO like that but the best we have are mods for SPRPG's and that still dosen't work for playing with friends.
It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.
I just wanted to hear a fellow mmo vet tell me that the good ol days really were the good ol days. I feel like I'm 60 and bitching about all the kids and their music, and I'm only in my 20's!
The good old days are not really golden, they were just a few years of transition. UO and EQ1 were not without their shortcomings. They hold a special meaning to some of us cos they were the first fully graphically MMO. The games that defines the start of a new genre of entertainment.
In as much as we all declare our intent marriage to UO, EQ, DAoC or whatever, none of us are playing that and enjoy it as much as we used to. A few of us go back, grumbling, waiting for a new game. Most of us moved on and never go back. That is why UO, EQ and DAoC now cannot muster a thousand simultaneous online (dramatised maybe, not wishing to go check, too lazy). The games are there, what attracts us, what lingers in our mind, is not really the game. It is the memory of spending our youthful days with a bunch of equally excited friends. Those days are not defined by the game engine alone, it is a mix of everything, which will never come back. Time never goes backward.
New games are in many ways superior. The graphics, the true 3D engine, the music (LoTRO say), the flying mounts. The fancy FX effects, the UI, the AH, the skill trees. Maybe we can add voice over soon with TOR. There are improvements, but somehow, no game capture the magical moments, the excitement, the freshness, the thrill of exploration for the first time.
It is over, one can only be teen once. As we grow old, I am old, we can only look back and relive the jubilant youth in our memories. Lucky you, you are in your 20s, the best days of your life.
Not trollin and not big fan of wow just recently started playing it,but first impression that WoW left me is the amazing huge world and tons of quests,not to mention the dam huge dungeons,the one at low levels not to mention bigger ones.Its just amazin game.Too bad most mmos fail nowdays and cant think massive
If you think WoW's world is massive try Vanguard. I think WoW might have caught up to it's land area but only with several expansions released. There are also many more dungeons in VG per character level range.
+1 for insight.
ive played quite a few mmo's in my day and none of them have dungeons that can compare to the open world dungeons of Vanguard. simply the best dungeons ive seen in an mmo, period.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
You wont find any answers cause simply there are not any.
That being said welcome to the club of waiting a real RPGmmo and not mmorpg.
The next good truly good mmorpg wil be the one that will remind us what rpg is / stands for.
And that is the magic. The magic fewling of the world we were playing into, the magic hidden in a Depth in character development, many and meangfull choises, and loads loads loads of options for the players on what to do on their daily online visits.
Sadly i think it will take some years for the next good mmorpg to come so enjoy Skyrim meanwhile heh
+1 for insight here as well. very nicely put and perhaps we should begin referring to ourselves or the games we are looking for as rpgmmo's. do it enough times and it may get noticed at least in passing.
game companies do seem to be about boxing characters in more and more. limitless character development provides content all on its own. SWGpreNGE is a perfect example. what did i do all those hours that played that game? i don't remember. there was plenty to do because there was plenty to explore, create, build, and grow into. did i grind at times? yes but only b/c i wanted to do so in order to advance my character the way i wanted to. therefore i didnt mind. it was my character, my choice, my options. not the golden road to leveling.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Comments
The mmo RPG is dead. You nailed it. This is and has been, the time of the mmo VG.
Birth of the MMOVG:
When a certain mmorpg showed the world that you can be successful without housing, realistic player vs player environments (persistant territorial acquisition), and that there was no need for so many unique qualities between factions, that's when the genre completely shifted. Corporate investors who once looked for creative propositions for a new mmorpg, tossed that in the trash bin and started looking for ways to emulate what that certain game brought to the table. Developers wouldn't have much work without big corporate pay offs, and would end up being forced to be creative in order to be noticed. Now, they need only ensure that memory leaks are minimal while an instanced battleground is running.
You nailed it on the head. The old RPG (role play game) concept has been replaced by the term massively multi player online video game. They should be called mmoVG.
MMO VG = massively multiplayer online video game. Non-realistic factions, or none at all, instanced battlegrounds that make no difference on an entire faction whether the leet teams involved win or lose...nothing matters but the gear, yada yada yada. Even in some games, RP has warped into various forms of disturbed low IQ'd perversions called ERP (emotional RP), family RP (pst if you want to play mom), and college RP (which I don't even know wth that is).
There was a time in Dark Age of Camelot, when I would log in and it really mattered to PvP. Victories mattered. Populations could NOT log onto other realms (we had THREE factions). You invested time into your realm and it mattered. You designed your house, and helped allocate your guild house property so that it was aesthetically pleasing. Now even that game is a mess of memory leaks and realm hoppers on a 6 minute timer with gold spammers making more profit than Mythic subscriptions.
The genre is just a big video game now. Sorry to say.
I'm not sure why a good product being produced faster than it was 5 years ago makes it fail more... The point I was trying to make is that new MMO's are all the same, how many times have you been playing ( Insert mmo that released in the last 5 years ) and had to explain something to someone in terms of how it related to WoW? Ok, sure some of the things WoW brought in were innovative and helped the games as a whole. I personally loved the auction house system, but asthetics don't make me subscribe.
Let's change examples for a second and look at the new and upcoming game genre of MOBA's. With Dota 1 being an underground very similar to UO in that regard and slowly over time creating a genre. Now we have 3 popular titles and a new super giant coming out. League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth, Dota 1, and soon to be Dota 2. Go look at the player base for Heroes of Newerth, and compare it to League of Legends. You will see that hands down League of Legends has 10x more players. The reason for that is because Heroes of Newerth is just a copy and paste of dota 1 with updated graphics and a few small asthetics here and there. However, league of legends pretty much took the idea and went in a totally new direction that players very very differently.
I think a big part of the continued appearance of this sort of post on these boards is because they are inherently asking, "Why are newer games only taking one path when many gamers love the other or both?". It's somewhat baffling when you look at the fact that most all new releases since the mid 2000's have been 90% game releases and 10% sims. You'd think with such a large discrepancy more dev teams would be trying to rectify it. What's wrong with having both games and sims still?
because a "sim" can only stand to make 30% (estimate out of my ass) of the profit that a "game" could potentially make. forget that fact that 30% of 25% of what warcraft has made is probably more than any two other games in the past 10 years combine. they are all shooting for neptune, yet most of them dont get past the moon. it really is mind boggling .. but then look at the rest of the world economy these days ..
If WoW or games like it are satisfying the majority of mmorpg gamers needs and wants but yet a percentage of the entire mmorpg market doesn't want a WoW type game but a more simulation focused game, whether it be sand box or themepark, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone providing that alternative product could garner 90 - 100% of that market of disinfranchised players? I've heard it been said before that WoW gamers ( mmogamers that started with WoW generally) are just that, WoW gamers. Many don't play anything but WoW according to gamers posts on this site. I know many WoW players that don't play any other mmorpg's except WoW personally.
im estimating that 30% of the entire MMO player base is interested in a "real" mmo. its just an estimate, but even if its 10% ... it would still stand to make a lot more than WAR, or the endless train of 1/2 baked games we have seen.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Ditto, Reading your experience pretty much sums up mine as well. Perhaps developers are to blame but at times I get so flustered with my own "pickiness" that I cannot help wonder if it is not just us that became jaded.
Id say The Secret World is shaping up to be what a lot of us old schoolers are looking for. The big question mark is crafting/economy which is supposed to be unveiled in the next few months.
Ahh ok, so you're saying current dev teams are going for the whole pie instead of just a piece?
No I get your point. What you seemed to imply though was the reason so many games failed is because they were just wow clones. That's only part of it. Part of the reason so many fail is because there are so many MORE. Even moreso than the growing number of players.
Think of it this way. Say your town has a Starbucks on one street corner. Great. awesome. Yay coffee. Now, some other guy opens a coffee shop called Starjucks. Another opens down the street named Starborks. Soon you have 99 coffee shops in a town that only used to need 1. They're all pretty similar...but worse yet there's just way more coffee shops than there is a need for them. So some will not get business, and many will close.
You're right that the ones that make themselves stand out stand a better chance of survival, but un the end the winners will be the ones that are
A) accessible to the largest amount of people
C) cheapest
And that is why WoW won't die.
I've read alot of posts on this site basically bullet pointing what made the older games stand out in comparison to newer games and it seems to me that it's mainly the developers. There have been many good mechanics and systems that people enjoyed in games of the past that have never been reintroduced. Coyote recently nailed quite a few in his article here.
I think a big part of the continued appearance of this sort of post on these boards is because they are inherently asking, "Why are newer games only taking one path when many gamers love the other or both?". It's somewhat baffling when you look at the fact that most all new releases since the mid 2000's have been 90% game releases and 10% sims. You'd think with such a large discrepancy more dev teams would be trying to rectify it. What's wrong with having both games and sims still?
because a "sim" can only stand to make 30% (estimate out of my ass) of the profit that a "game" could potentially make. forget that fact that 30% of 25% of what warcraft has made is probably more than any two other games in the past 10 years combine. they are all shooting for neptune, yet most of them dont get past the moon. it really is mind boggling .. but then look at the rest of the world economy these days ..
If WoW or games like it are satisfying the majority of mmorpg gamers needs and wants but yet a percentage of the entire mmorpg market doesn't want a WoW type game but a more simulation focused game, whether it be sand box or themepark, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone providing that alternative product could garner 90 - 100% of that market of disinfranchised players? I've heard it been said before that WoW gamers ( mmogamers that started with WoW generally) are just that, WoW gamers. Many don't play anything but WoW according to gamers posts on this site. I know many WoW players that don't play any other mmorpg's except WoW personally.
im estimating that 30% of the entire MMO player base is interested in a "real" mmo. its just an estimate, but even if its 10% ... it would still stand to make a lot more than WAR, or the endless train of 1/2 baked games we have seen.
Ahh ok, so you're saying current dev teams are going for the whole pie instead of just a piece?
basically.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Fiscally, it's the smarter choice. Niche market games don't make as much money, therefore aren't likely to attract big investors, and therefore won't get off the ground. Appealing to a shallow, yet wider pool of gamers tends to be more profitable.
Apparently you haven't seen the latest quota from Blizzard. WoW is dying and they've already put the game on life support. They're now moving on to titan and their moba etc...
I agree that dev companies want to make money and that if you go back and look at older mmo's all you will see is how bad ass WoW did. But if you take even a small look under the surface you will see why WoW was successful and is starting to fade along with the 99 other coffee shops as you put it.
I really don't like that analogy either, I go to starbucks because it has better coffee than mcdonalds or other coffee shops in my area. If my starbucks started serving me coffee I didn't like anymore, and at the same time 98 new coffee shops sprang up with this new blend I don't like I would not go to any of them. Which is what we are seeing in the mmorpg genre, new coffee shops aren't able to get customers because their coffee sucks not because there are 100 of them.
To OP
You wont find any answers cause simply there are not any.
That being said welcome to the club of waiting a real RPGmmo and not mmorpg.
The next good truly good mmorpg wil be the one that will remind us what rpg is / stands for.
And that is the magic. The magic fewling of the world we were playing into, the magic hidden in a Depth in character development, many and meangfull choises, and loads loads loads of options for the players on what to do on their daily online visits.
Sadly i think it will take some years for the next good mmorpg to come so enjoy Skyrim meanwhile heh
When looking at it realistically, what you mean by "real MMOs" is "my personal definition of the only thing an MMO should be." In that light, you should be able to find your answer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMO's are dead. Even mmorpg is changing it's way of doing things allowing other genre's to inhabit the same pages so they dont die along with the MMO industry.
I loved vanilla wow, my first bat ride through tirisfal was awesome. Back then you could always find something to work on - even solo - on your character, there was world PVP - even if not lootable. Dungeon keys and hard to find recipes were so great in the day.
Loved UO and even saw a couple weeks ago some new shop stalls they had added to the game - it always has some new novelty or mechanic for players to engage with.
EvE Online is awesome, they engage the players and keep everything even the market totally enthralling - the only problem is that you're in a spaceship all the time, and I prefer fantasy.
IMO eve with swords and magic would rock. Game developers all want to copy wow, but don't have any inkling as to what makes me tick.
There's little/no exploration in mmo's, there's no magic to the game itself, it's dull lifeless and uninteresting.
atm, playing hon and waiting for dota 2 for some fun shenanigans, but apart from that I'm not even hoping archeage will approach what I want - no death penality AT ALL is kind of stupid in a game that allows pvp everywhere ?!?
If they put in some partial loot even, I'd be far happier with that game.
The player housing and other features as far as character creation look great, but ... we'll see.
My EVE YouTube Channel
Your not blind my friend , real mmo's have indeed died many years ago ..
MMOs died on April 3, 2000. Nuff said.
We aren't going to get these games unfortunately. Companies can not grasp this idea. Instead their ideas are nothing but level and get gear, rinse and repeat for levels. The smaller developers only can grasp that full loot pvp is the way to go. There is no inbetween. The full loot pvp crowd is a very very small market while the inbetween crowd is much greater and will also pull from the other two(gear grinders and full loot crowd).
Games are about what can I do to make my character better during this 2hrs I have. What can I do that can possibly result in an increase to my character. No longer do developers care about social aspects of the MMO's and until that is corrected, we are going to see the same piles come out plan and simple.
Haha - what happend at that particular date? - Release of UO expansion?
So you aren't looking for a real MMOrpg.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Ah nostalgia.
None of the new/current games are as good as the old ones. And the old ones weren't as good as we'd like to remember.
Sure, many of those old games are still running, but we don't want to play them 'cause... well patch so-and-so ruined everything!
But what about games like Eve, Second Life or Darkfall? Yeah, those games have most (if not all) of the features we demand, but they're not good enough 'cause... well 'cause we have our reasons.
Hey OP,
My MMORPG experience is pretty much the same as yours with probably x3 of the amount of games, which ofcourse are almost the same as eachother so maybe they really don't even count. What I can say to you is that if you have the time and can find a cool group of people, tabletop D&D Forgotten realms 3.5 ruleset or less is probably the only thing that will satisfy you at the moment. That is however, quite a few if's lol
I think in about 5-10 years there will be a game out there for you. Dev's are starting to become creative and innovative enough to work within the corporate establishment.
"LOL"
Same boat right down to feeling like a longbeard before my time. I started in WoW and quit because it was about instant gratification. Right now i am looking for what you want but as far as combat i want it to be more of a struggle than Oblivions; don't get me wrong it was a glorious game in its fights but diversity mechanics for each class, and being a tad weaker would beat all for me. The actual professions bit would be BA. Its all MMO no RPG; each IP ustilized takes back seat to the multiplayer aspect and the game suffers for it.
I wish we had an MMO like that but the best we have are mods for SPRPG's and that still dosen't work for playing with friends.
It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.
The good old days are not really golden, they were just a few years of transition. UO and EQ1 were not without their shortcomings. They hold a special meaning to some of us cos they were the first fully graphically MMO. The games that defines the start of a new genre of entertainment.
In as much as we all declare our intent marriage to UO, EQ, DAoC or whatever, none of us are playing that and enjoy it as much as we used to. A few of us go back, grumbling, waiting for a new game. Most of us moved on and never go back. That is why UO, EQ and DAoC now cannot muster a thousand simultaneous online (dramatised maybe, not wishing to go check, too lazy). The games are there, what attracts us, what lingers in our mind, is not really the game. It is the memory of spending our youthful days with a bunch of equally excited friends. Those days are not defined by the game engine alone, it is a mix of everything, which will never come back. Time never goes backward.
New games are in many ways superior. The graphics, the true 3D engine, the music (LoTRO say), the flying mounts. The fancy FX effects, the UI, the AH, the skill trees. Maybe we can add voice over soon with TOR. There are improvements, but somehow, no game capture the magical moments, the excitement, the freshness, the thrill of exploration for the first time.
It is over, one can only be teen once. As we grow old, I am old, we can only look back and relive the jubilant youth in our memories. Lucky you, you are in your 20s, the best days of your life.
+1 for insight.
ive played quite a few mmo's in my day and none of them have dungeons that can compare to the open world dungeons of Vanguard. simply the best dungeons ive seen in an mmo, period.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
+1 for insight here as well. very nicely put and perhaps we should begin referring to ourselves or the games we are looking for as rpgmmo's. do it enough times and it may get noticed at least in passing.
game companies do seem to be about boxing characters in more and more. limitless character development provides content all on its own. SWGpreNGE is a perfect example. what did i do all those hours that played that game? i don't remember. there was plenty to do because there was plenty to explore, create, build, and grow into. did i grind at times? yes but only b/c i wanted to do so in order to advance my character the way i wanted to. therefore i didnt mind. it was my character, my choice, my options. not the golden road to leveling.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse