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Meaningful PvP
It feels hopeless making this thread because I don't think I'm gonna get any good answers but maybe I'll get suprised.
What I would ideally like is a open world without instances and completely pvp enabled with perhaps some guarded areas for the citys. Also some sort of death penalty is a must.
Deaths need to matter so that it doesn't become like wow where you are corpse camping someone and it's not about how many times you kill him it's about who get's bored first.
DFO is actually a good game if you have an endgame char but I refuse to play it after the messed up release.
And I also refuse to try Mortal Online, Because they scammed me on my preorder.
EvE Online is also good but it bores me somehow.. Think it's the combat system that makes me fall aslepp.. and all the scanning and scouting for a prey which can take forever.
Xzyon and that other game I can't remember the name of is also outta question.
Some people might suggest Ultima Online but it's actually not a open world after trammel and felucca.
Some might suggest the free emu oldschool shards like IPY2 but there is only 1 server that's hosted in EU and it sucks.
Point is I know there ain't a mmorpg like I want but is there anything you think I might be able to enjoy where PvP isnt instanced and deaths matter. I dont care about pride or respect for winning.
Comments
You want deaths to matter, but do you want any penalties for killing? In other words, if you kill someone that is FAR below your level....what about a penalty for that? It's a rule that basically forces you to fight people nearer your own level in open PvP. I don't know....just asking. Seems you want a penalty for people you kill, but not for yourself?
Have you ever played TIBIA? It's 2D like UO. It's like UO except without Trammel and Felucca. It can be harsh. You might really like it.
TIBIA
TIBIA Quickstart Guide - scroll down to see death penalty (they've changed it, it's not AS harsh as it once was, but still meaningful)
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yes I played it, It was best pre skull system but they really dumbed the game down and removed all the skillfull parts from PvP.. Then ofcourse the aimbots are a must have now for all PvPers.
But I could still imagine playing it except for the reason that it's pretty much a must that you join up with a guild and when you PvP you gotta do it with at least 1 partner because it's almost impossible to kill someone 1v1.
I prefer PKing solo.. I really hate games where I'm forced to team up with people.. Even tho it's not forced in tibia... you can't kill much else than low lvls 1v1.
EDIT: Even if you could kill high lvls 1v1, You still would need a guild to protect you from becoming hunted.. I hate being part of guilds. If they removed the find person spell then you wouldn't need a guild for protection as badly though.
Common misconception.
Play on the Siege Perilous (official) server. No Trammel, all other areas that are non-PvP in the regular servers are PvP enabled on this server. This PvP server has been around for years, but the original PvP crowd can't let the addition of Trammel go (even though they are the reason it was added).
Interesting, Will check that out.
Keep thread going though incase there might be more good stuff out there I didn't know about,.
You have a point (which is what I have always believed why Full PvP has failed). If you want deaths to matter, then you must also make killing matter as well. I am all for harsh death penalties. But there needs to be hard killing penalties as well if so. Its the only way to make all of it meaningful. On both sides of the fence. I've also never agreed with being able to see someone elses "level" in PvP - but that's besides the point.
All in all, it all comes down to what the developers have in mind and what their game is based around. But true PvP (to me) should require one to really make a hard choice based on risk vs. reward. And that goes for both sides - dying and killing.
I think you mean you want there to be a penalty for being the aggressor?
Or else What if a PK starts attacking a carebear and the carebear defends himself and kills the PK and gets penalized for it?
Doesn't need to be any penalties for killing or attacking someone imo.. only death penalties.
It's not like all pks have a insta kill button to kill all carebears with.. PKs die as well.
There's also a ton of PK vs PK fights.
There needs to be a counterbalance to griefing. Otherwise what is to stop you from camping someone's corpse forever just to be a dick, especially if there's a progressive penalty in the form of xp or skill loss.
Something like Eve's Security Status makes sense to me in this environment. There are penalties to a low security status (not being able to bring warships into high sec without them being attacked, gate guns firing on you, people being able to kill you without penalty). You can live with a -10.0 security status just fine and enjoy most of the game with it, and if you wanted to, you could grind NPC rats until you have a positive security status and enjoy all the benefits of being a law abiding citizen then.
I don't know about the entire rest of the game, but the game Salem which is currently in development utilizes perma-death for your characters. When you kill someone, they are dead, dead, dead. You can have other characters inherit from your dead character in some way so you don't lose everything...but I do not have any real details on how this system plays out.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Lineage II has all you're looking for. 95% of the game is non-instanced, and the PvP is actually meaningfull (castle/fortress sieges, territory control of just because you want to). Unlike most open-world PvP MMO's, in L2 you can start PKing from level 1 (though I'd not recommend it) and death penalty is harsh in general (4% XP loss and chance of a debuff that can only be removed with a scroll), and if you have more than 5 PK's and chaotic (red / PK) you even have a chance of dropping stuff (and trust me, you're the huntd pinata then
)
Here's something I once suggested on a game forum that I thought would make Pvp more meaningful:
You allow the use of a games cosmetic / appearance tab while in a Pvp area. Do away with being able to see your targets colored level ring / level on the target lock etc... All you'd know is your target is a player. Nothing else. You'd have to decide to attack just based on what the target "looked like". Is that guy in ragged armor really a low level or a high level slumming?
Of course the replies I got there were all of the "but I wouldn't know if I'd win" vareity.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
The problem with this is that people may play a game to be challenged (any game really) but ultimately they want to win...if they have a lot of trouble winning, most people stop playing. There are exceptions, of course.
The first mistake of trying to make PvP meaningful is thinking it holds the same overall value for even a small group of people. I mean you yourself even stated that you enjoy solo PvP vs. group oriented PvP. And that's just two facets out of countless scenarios for PvP. Now most PvP oriented MMOs try to artificially add weight to the value of death, while completely ignoring how would be attackers value their own lives in game.
We always hear about stiff death penalties and anti ganking systems, but what if you could place a counterweight on that life and death scale so attackers start to think about charging in in the first place? Obviously stat debuffs and equipment loss is not enough. Because an attacker has to actually die before he sees any penalty. And when death does come, you better believe he has already calculated what equipment is expendable and waiting out a debuff will hinder the victim far more than the attacker (because they would be dying more anyway).
You want PvPers to actually think about engaging in a fight before coming to the conclusion that "red is dead". But how do you do that? Simple really. Add the element of gambling to goes far beyond equipment and debuffs upon death. Why not add a bonus to every PvP battle you survive? Think about it. If an attacker gets a multiplier for every kill they make (limit 1 per victim) and loses it upon death, then more than likely they start to think about charging in for risk of losing something that cannot be unequipped, waited out nor avoided.
You either want to take a gamble on losing your bonus or not. What this then creates is a system that polices itself. Especially if you allow even greater bonuses in PvP to those who happen to kill other PvPer with equal or higher multipliers. But the question then becomes what value do you place on the bonus? Should it be something that makes the attacker harder to kill like stat increases, thus making the risk of dying trivial? Or should it be something that loses value once the attacker reaches max level, like a exp bonus. Or should it be a bonus to item drops and currency?
Who knows. But what I do know is that as long as developers fail to address the issue of giving just as much thought into adding weight to life, PvPer will continue to find ways to devalue every system devs put in place to add weigh to death and PvP will continue the broken formula of never adding up.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Well, Whoever is getting corpse camped is either a bot or really dumb for coming back to get killed over and over again.
There's tons of other places to go and other stuff to do.. Plus Whoever is pking and causing trouble at a popular spot is gonna have a hoard of angry people from the different guilds come looking for him :P
Originally posted by lizardbones
I don't know about the entire rest of the game, but the game Salem which is currently in development utilizes perma-death for your characters. When you kill someone, they are dead, dead, dead. You can have other characters inherit from your dead character in some way so you don't lose everything...but I do not have any real details on how this system plays out.
Sounds cool with perma death, Gonna check Salem out as well.
Been really interested in perma death.. Never tried something like that but think it would be a lot of fun except when you die from something you have no control over like internet or server lag or something :P lol
I can imagine a lot of angry kids yelking "MOM!! Did you turn off the internet?!!" "Yes dearie! Time for bed!"
Very true.
Of course the "win" replies I got were more in keeping with the "I want to one shot lowbies" type of players. They didn't want to risk a thing.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
PVP is an interesting concept in general. There's no good way to balance it, as people who have a lot of spare time prefer systems where their spare time gives them bonuses to winning (better gear, map memorization, higher level, etc) and people with better reflexes and equipment prefer games that give them bonuses (less lag, quicker reaction time)
As I get older I'm progressively being drawn away from PVP and Multiplayer games in general because of this. I don't bother with shooter multiplayer anymore (except PVE stuff like Nazi Zombies) simply because I am not going to waste weeks of my life memorizing maps to know all the hiding, spawn, and sniping positions. It isn't worth it to me; nor is gearing for months to pwn people in arena. That said, I enjoyed Alterac Valley before it was changed, and the invasion mechanic of SWG-NGE; which was along a similar vein. In those cases, your gear and level mattered less because it was team oriented. In the invasion mechanic, even a lvl 1 trader could make tools to build/repair defenses, and a lvl 1 entertainer could reduce exhaustion to keep people building/repairing stuff. A lvl 1 combat class could use the tools to build/repair defenses as well, even if they'd get one shotted in combat. In fact, it was better to have dozens of lowbies than a few 90s in the first phase of invasion, as partially built reinforcement zones and vehicle spawns would create crappy defenses, but max level ones would make lvl 90 elite mobs...
forgot where I was going there...
SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEMSALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEMSALEM SALEM SALEM SALEMSALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM SALEM
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Lol sry!
But salem looks fucking amazing!
Where do I sign up for it I cant seem to find any website, just checked some yotube videos about it.
It's one of those near-vaporware games, being made by a very small team with almost zero information or advertising. The company has only made one 2D simple mmo. Has a almost non-existant budget, It most likely will never see the light of day I'm afraid. But there is always a chance, And FYI there is no website, one more reason it's likely vaporware. Shame really, their little 2D mmo was interesting and fun for a week after launch, sadly it has zero long term design. (Players eventually reach godmode, becomming immortals able to pull down structures with their barehands. -Not joking)
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
My definition of meaningful PvP is different than yours. To me, meaningful PvP is when there is a good reason to kill someone other than "because I can". Meaningful PvP is objective based. It could be in the form of player bounties, taking back a keep, or fighting for resources.
Open PvP is not meaningful PvP. Its just a device game designers use to give you the illusion of content.
My reason for killing is fun, and loot.
It happens irl too, very rarely in this modern times but still it happens that people kill each other just for fun.. and gangs randomly kill someone just to prove their a man. Then there is lots of people starting brawls with each other just for fun.
In medieval era there was a lot of random killing just for the fun of it.
Also I managed to find Salems website.
You really think it's vaporware? They have even set dates for each beta stage.
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/salem
Look into Dark Age of Camelot.....and King of Kings 3.
For pvp to be meaningful it has to serve a purpose beyond pvp. It has to be political, and undesirable. While an mmo should involve combat, it shouldn't be centered around it. Combat shouldn't be flashy and spectacular, with metal theme music playing in the background. It should be raw and disgusting, like a horror game. It shouldn't be instant either, it should involve a lot of kicking and screeming and panic. When it's done right, the sight of it should make you dump your stomach all over your keyboard.