It's still on my I want to play it eventually list. There was so much buzz and community there for a while I thought it would be a real winner. Then later it seemed to have dried up.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
The only sandbox game left worth playing is Minecraft, lol.
But Archage with it's 100+ classes, somewhat realword physics (at least it has gravity!), and player housing looks really really good and I think is our last best hope for a AAA sandbox. And it's from a Korean company for pete's sake! What's up with that?
Originally posted by ActionMMORPG Originally posted by Madimorga
Fallen Earth. Now that was a disappointment. It's still on my I want to play it eventually list. There was so much buzz and community there for a while I thought it would be a real winner. Then later it seemed to have dried up.
FE doesn't seem to be a full on sandbox to me. It seems much more like a harsh theme park game with skill based advancement and a comprehensive crafting system. And wonky combat...really wonky combat.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yeah when Archeage comes out it is the AAA Sandbox MMO that is going to wtfpwn Themepark games forever and ever and make them eat poop just like Darkfall and MO and EvE and FE did...
oh wait...
I've been playing this genre since UO 1999.
Are there some things I really miss about those games? Yes.
Is there a way to combine the best of those features with the "modern" MMO feature list? Hopefully.
Are modern games a whole lot better and more fun? In general, yes.
Not all oldschool sandbox gamers are blind.
Some of us can see the positive changes the genre has evolved over time.
But that doesn't mean there aren't thing I really miss about the classics...
I guess what they mean to say is "there's no AAA sandbox MMORPGs". All the ones you listed above that have been released are in decline, shite or being shutdown soon.
******THIS*******
Also I would like to point out that most of those games you listed are either old, has horrible gameplay, or is niche driven.
Alot of us want a spiritual successor to the old school MMO's. I myself am looking for a spiritual successor to Asherons Call, and untill a AAA developer comes along and devotes millions of $$$ on such an endeavor I will forever complain till I get what I want.
Besides there has not been a AAA Sandbox MMO since FOREVAR!!!! I honestly think a AAA mmo that focuses on exploration (through dungeons as well as a huge overland world), Long Term character development through an alternate advancement system, Focus on PvE, Crafting, Character Housing, A truely unique to MMO loot system (Diablo/AC/Fate), classless character system, open world raids, old school camping of dynamic rare spawns, and other trademark sandbox elements.
A sandbox does not = MO or DF, most truely diehard sandbox enthusiasts want a PvE sandbox that carrys on the AC or EQ experience.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, sandbox with ancient graphic/animation/audio, not sandbox, whut, whut, whut?
Then Ultima is not a sandbox either and no sandbox have ever been made.Theme park is a game that set you on a predetermine path or has predetermine paths.Sandbox has no predetermine paths.WoW or Rifts you are suppose to go recommend area to level.Sandbox lets you go everywhere and play how you want.Freedom vs Set choice.
Just because Mortal Online and Darkfall are not good sandboxes does not mean they are not sandboxes.Ulitma is a deeper sandbox better game than mortal but all games except Vanguard(and fallen earth) are sandboxes.Now you question level of complexity of each sandboxes and lack of features but they are still sandboxes.
Then include Ultima Online in the list next time. No sandbox is not "lets you go everywhere and play how you want," WOW lets you go everywhere and play how you want, but WOW aint no sandbox.
If you guys would ever get together and actually define "sandbox", it'd make definately make discussion of the topic a little easier.
Sandbox=Player created content
Themepark=Developer created content
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I still don't see how they spend 100 million dollars to make a game.
*lol* if all 100 million $ is giving you are craptastic graphics, linear gameplay, limited options in "favour" of the almighty story so what?
Good games are speaking for themselves with great gameplay they don't need tons of bought reviews, viral marketers and other PR crap.
I'm praying to god ArcheAge will be different enough, so the all the hype-buyers and instant gratification players won't even touch it. Rather have a smaller but loyal and helpful community instead of grammar-nazis, Chuck Norris jokes, kids and easymode "balance" crybabies.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I'm gonna put my money on Tribes Ascend and GW2, and I'll wait for awhile to get GW2. I'll play Fallen Earth when it goes F2P and am curious about Salem.
Then include Ultima Online in the list next time. No sandbox is not "lets you go everywhere and play how you want," WOW lets you go everywhere and play how you want, but WOW aint no sandbox.
Actually All MMO are sandboxes.People just keep adding on their defintion to what a Sandbox is the beginning.The games that where called sandboxes like GTA and Spiderman games. Sandbox just refers to game with out levels that was Sandboxes was in the beginning.You game forced to play with levels aka Mario level 1-1,1-2,1-3,1-4.
Somewhere along the line MMO fan more stuff to defintion of Sandbox was a game wuth no levels that let play throught how you want to play aka no set path was called a sandbox.Some where along the line Sandboxes turn from a game with no levels to realistic virtual world for MMO fans.
GTA is a Sandbox,Ulitma is Sandbox,Oblivion is a sandbox
I hate people using Sandbox titles not having a wow-type success as reasons why noone will do a big-budget sandbox title. The reality is that there have been two big-budget sandbox games: Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. Both of those were successful titles, but they were also flawed titles.
UO was a 2d game, as 2d was going out of style. It's PvP system encouraged player ganking, which frustrated many players. If they soloed they'd be ganked by gangs of PKs who would take all of their stuff, and if they tried to get revenge they would often turn Red because the PKers would use whirling blades and exploits to flag the player as Grey before they attacked them. Thieves were everywhere and even if you called for the Guards on them they often worked in tandems and someone else would gank your stuff before they did. There were exploits everywhere, not much in the way of questing or AI, and the recall stones allowed players to bypass content. All of those problems aside, it was still a successful title.
SWG was badly rushed to market. At launch the servers kept crashing, players kept losing items when their corpses disappeared, the insurance system was harsh, combat was completely imbalanced and unchallenging, vehicles and cities weren't in the game yet, the jedi system required a long ridiculous grind that required players to continually unlearn and remaster skill trees, etc. It was still successful despite those flaws.
WoW raised the bar of subscription numbers and suddenly every other game seems to be a failure when compared to it. But a lot of people (myself included) have the firm belief that an updated version of those games that corrects their flaws would be a smash success. The problem is, the big studios are not willing to take that risk. So we wind up with small budget or indie titles creating them, and then players complain about a lack of polish and use that as an example of sandboxes being unsuccessful. It's circular logic.
I hate people using Sandbox titles not having a wow-type success as reasons why noone will do a big-budget sandbox title. The reality is that there have been two big-budget sandbox games: Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. Both of those were successful titles, but they were also flawed titles.
WoW raised the bar of subscription numbers and suddenly every other game seems to be a failure when compared to it. But a lot of people (myself included) have the firm belief that an updated version of those games that corrects their flaws would be a smash success. The problem is, the big studios are not willing to take that risk. So we wind up with small budget or indie titles creating them, and then players complain about a lack of polish and use that as an example of sandboxes being unsuccessful. It's circular logic.
We are not even talking about WoW success,Screw WoW numbers,WoW is freak nature.We talking about Aion numbers,Linage 2 numbers,We are talking about Aoc and War launch numbers.Yes it is unfair because you can honestly say no big game sandbox was made but no Sandbox has come close to AoC launch numbers,No Sandbox has come close to War launch numbers,certainly nothing has even sniff Linage 2 or Aion numbers.We all know it silly think that Sandbox can't sell as much but looking at money and buiness perspective until one sandbox proves it can make money then industry will stay focus on themeparks and themeparks are making money you can hate on them.It is like comic book movies until it is was proven that one could make money then we didn't have any,no we are flooded comic books movies it is not fair but that how it works.
A interesting note is both sandboxes where back by strong IP,Star Wars and the Ultima series.That is where next big success will probably come for sandboxes.My hope was for the Elder Scroll series to make a Sandbox MMO but recent announcement by one of their devs can shot that down.It also strange that no company has used on of older IP sandboxes Ultima Online 2,Asheron Call 3 or Shadowbane 2 either
Also the industry isn't completely open with numbers so when people call games like Aoc,Lotor,War failures but in 2008 AoC,Lotor and War made somewhere between 50 to150 million dollars.Think about Aoc and Lotor isn't War which cost 100 million pretend AoC cost 80 million and Lotor cost 70 million to make,How close do think they are make back the money it took them to make it.What do you think Companies see when they see Fantasy westward Journey,Perfect World,Club penguin pull down silly numbers.People have seen the recent conversions to free to play and doubling and tripling profit for games like Aoc and Lotor.The point is this MMORPG are doing whole lot better than people think and companies are willing to make slight improvement on working formula try to go after making WoW money and if they fail they still are making pretty good money
I hate people using Sandbox titles not having a wow-type success as reasons why noone will do a big-budget sandbox title. The reality is that there have been two big-budget sandbox games: Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. Both of those were successful titles, but they were also flawed titles.
WoW raised the bar of subscription numbers and suddenly every other game seems to be a failure when compared to it. But a lot of people (myself included) have the firm belief that an updated version of those games that corrects their flaws would be a smash success. The problem is, the big studios are not willing to take that risk. So we wind up with small budget or indie titles creating them, and then players complain about a lack of polish and use that as an example of sandboxes being unsuccessful. It's circular logic.
We are not even talking about WoW success,Screw WoW numbers,WoW is freak nature.We talking about Aion numbers,Linage 2 numbers,We are talking about Aoc and War launch numbers.Yes it is unfair because you can honestly say no big game sandbox was made but no Sandbox has come close to AoC launch numbers,No Sandbox has come close to War launch numbers,certainly nothing has even sniff Linage 2 or Aion numbers.We all know it silly think that Sandbox can't sell as much but looking at money and buiness perspective until one sandbox proves it can make money then industry will stay focus on themeparks and themeparks are making money you can hate on them.It is like comic book movies until it is was proven that one could make money then we didn't have any,no we are flooded comic books movies it is not fair but that how it works. A interesting note is both sandboxes where back by strong IP,Star Wars and the Ultima series.That is where next big success will probably come for sandboxes.My hope was for the Elder Scroll series to make a Sandbox MMO but recent announcement by one of their devs can shot that down.It also strange that no company has used on of older IP sandboxes Ultima Online 2,Asheron Call 3 or Shadowbane 2 either Also the industry isn't completely open with numbers so when people call games like Aoc,Lotor,War failures but in 2008 AoC,Lotor and War made somewhere between 50 to150 million dollars.Think about Aoc and Lotor isn't War which cost 100 million pretend AoC cost 80 million and Lotor cost 70 million to make,How close do think they are make back the money it took them to make it.What do you think Companies see when they see Fantasy westward Journey,Perfect World,Club penguin pull down silly numbers.People have seen the recent conversions to free to play and doubling and tripling profit for games like Aoc and Lotor.The point is this MMORPG are doing whole lot better than people think and companies are willing to make slight improvement on working formula try to go after making WoW money and if they fail they still are making pretty good money http://gigaom.com/2009/02/01/top-10-money-making-mmos-2008/ http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-06-12/study_reveals_top_10_money_making_mmos_in_2009_5_made_in_china,1.shtml http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27581/Study_US_Gamers_Spent_38_Billion_On_MMOs_in_2009.php
You know what? this kind of argument is ridiculous. Sandbox need to prove what?
Uo started the mmo trend, in fact it didn't started but put it on rail. Without Uo, games probably would have stayed on the multiplayer level, and i'm not very sure of the success of either EQ, nor lineage would have been this big without UO making all the ground job for them. Even the sub model was brought by UO, as well as the notion of virtual world, and many other ideas even the most hardcore themepark or other build just can't get rid off. Look at all the arcade like mmo that failed these last few years, and every time people brought the same issue. A mmo cannot be just a massive multiplayer game, it need a virtual world and some crafting/economy to back this up and give your character some "reality". So please, the Wow generation, try at least to give respect to whom it is due.
Even for the most anti sandbox gamer, some of the core sandbox concept is absolutely needed to make an mmo, but they just don't even know it.
If anything sandbox already prooved and proove themselves at every new realease, even on non sandboxes releases.
Even in a sandbox, the developers need to create content. I think that's one of the reasons that latter sandboxes have not had as much success, there seems to be this idea that you can make a completely empty game, plop in some players and it's enough.
All games are on a continuum between 100% pure sandbox like Second Life and 100% Pure Themepark (DDO comes closest i think). Everything else somewhere in between.
In a sandbox game, i expect players to encounter pre-designed mechanics and content, but to develop them into new gameplay possibilities via interaction.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
We are not even talking about WoW success,Screw WoW numbers,WoW is freak nature.We talking about Aion numbers,Linage 2 numbers,We are talking about Aoc and War launch numbers.Yes it is unfair because you can honestly say no big game sandbox was made but no Sandbox has come close to AoC launch numbers,No Sandbox has come close to War launch numbers,certainly nothing has even sniff Linage 2 or Aion numbers.We all know it silly think that Sandbox can't sell as much but looking at money and buiness perspective until one sandbox proves it can make money then industry will stay focus on themeparks and themeparks are making money you can hate on them.It is like comic book movies until it is was proven that one could make money then we didn't have any,no we are flooded comic books movies it is not fair but that how it works.
The market was a lot smaller back then. People didn't know what an MMORPG was. Every single major title that is released these days breaks previous MMO sales records for that very reason. Star Wars Galaxies sold over a million units. Unfortunately the game needed at least 6 months longer in beta testing, or else it would have likely been a larger hit.
Comparing other recent sandbox titles to larger budget titles is not a fair comparison by any stretch. There have been far fewer sandboxes as everyone rushed to clone WoW. The few sandbox releases their have been have come from smaller independent teams. They don't have the manpower or budget to compete with releases like Warhammer, Age of Conan, Aion, Lord of the Rings Online, etc. As a result they generally ship underpolished. Without a recognizable name, and given they are probably shipping with less polish, to expect them to be a huge hit out of the gate would be optimistic at best.
You know what? this kind of argument is ridiculous. Sandbox need to prove what?
Uo started the mmo trend, in fact it didn't started but put it on rail. Without Uo, games probably would have stayed on the multiplayer level, and i'm not very sure of the success of either EQ, nor lineage would have been this big without UO making all the ground job for them.
Even the sub model was brought by UO, as well as the notion of virtual world, and many other ideas even the most hardcore themepark or other build just can't get rid off. Look at all the arcade like mmo that failed these last few years, and every time people brought the same issue. A mmo cannot be just a massive multiplayer game, it need a virtual world and some crafting/economy to back this up and give your character some "reality". So please, the Wow generation, try at least to give respect to whom it is due.
Even for the most anti sandbox gamer, some of the core sandbox concept is absolutely needed to make an mmo, but they just don't even know it.
If anything sandbox already prooved and proove themselves at every new realease, even on non sandboxes releases.
You can think the arguement is crazy but i can back it up
Look at superheroes movies it was not till Spiderman blew up did companies see the value of them,Tons of them pop up
Look at FPS shooters when Halo had it success tons of shooters came out,When Call of duty blew up tons of Military shooter came out
Look at Boy bands and girl pop music when Backstreet boys and brintey spear blew up you saw tons acts like that follow.
Look at Moba.LoL had success and look at how many Moba are being made
What you guys are missing is that when devs go to company say they making a game you need to invest 100 million in a game,Investor go where is the proof of success of course their isn't any with that style of game right now it is hard to just spending that much money with proof success,People will say what about the failures even when you look at the so call failures they each did amazing well in the beginning( and are doing better than people think) meaning to big shots if we figure out to keep to customers then we will be huge.Every company knows WoW is coming to end they each think that they can be that one to take all those customers.
Basically they are shooting for WoW 11 million and even if they fail to get that then dropping and get 5 million or even 1 million is great,even 800k and 700k of War and Aoc look impressive numbers if you can hold those numbers for 1 or 2 years you can make back 100 million easy.They think can fix whatever probelms those game had make tons of money.You look at Rifts they already have better rention rate than AoC,Aion or War.Themeparks have already figure out what is strategy push lots of content out after release and have a server merger plan nessary or Rifts case offer free transfers.Then in worse case switch convert over to free to play.I am sure SWTOR already has server merger plan ready.
My point is just like Third person shooters,Sandbox games are minority.I could have statement my point in less taunting fashion.Really i want to say three things in this thread
1.Themeparks will probably always be market majority now and you will probably see very few AAA sandboxes.Just like you see few third person shooters
2.They are sandboxes still now how ever bad or average,The industry has not stop making them.It has switch from the big companies to indies,most like that is where you find your next game not SOE or EA.More pressure is need to make indie companies release polish games and stop releasing them early.
3.They are making Sandboxes now like Archage and Repopulation(with hero engine same as SWTOR).More focus should go to those games than complain about the past they will never come back.
IIt sound like i am hating on Sandboxes i am not ,I am waiting on great sandbox game myself but I am waiting on great action mmorpg(hopefully Tera),I am waiting great theme park MMORPG that isn't trying to be WoW(hopefully Guild Wars 2),I am waiting on good MMOFPS(hopefully Planetside),I am waiting great MMORPG that has old school elements(hopefully EQnext or 38 studio Amular mmo).Maybe because i am look for great mmo and not just a great sandbox i have different perspective than somebody who is waiting for a good sandbox game.
Like I said the mmo industry is big enough to support all types MMORPG,while i understand why market isn't flood with sandboxes,I don't know their isn't at least one big AAA sandbox MMO
Most people that want sandbox game , are aware of titles you wrote.
People who discuss/ compain about sandbox want AAA quality game.
Not another indie game.
Not old game like Ultima.
Not bugged , very niche PvP fest like Darkfall or MO.
Game that is polished , good support and has AAA quality.
Simple.
Chances that a there will be AAA sandbox p2p game produced anytime soon? Slim to none.
ArcheAge will be interesting game for sure, and it might please some , (hope it will please me) but it is themepark with some sandbox elements. if it will be exceptionally good it might make those topics be more rare for some time, but well we'll have to see how this game will turn out.
So get used to it OP. You will see hundreads of similar "there is no sandbox" threads in future. Don't whine.
I guess what they mean to say is "there's no AAA sandbox MMORPGs". All the ones you listed above that have been released are in decline, shite or being shutdown soon.
AAA Game Costs + Niche Audience = Bad Idea
The games which are in decline or being shutdown are experiencing precisely why it's a bad idea to develop an expensive MMORPG for a niche audience.
And again, this is where gamers would really benefit from knowing what devs, investors, and marketing firms know about those numbers. What is defined as niche? How many interested players are required before an idea can be considered mainstream? What is the actual range of AAA game costs, including interest rates and post development maintenance? In other words, what is the lowest and highest breakeven number possible for a game categorized as niche? What are the average behavior patterns of gamers and groups of gamers over many years? How accurate have estimations of all of the above by marketing firms proven in the past? Can they even be relied on, or might we take them completely by surprise on a regular basis?
In this case the judgement is made based on the fact that I have yet to see a remotely successful MMORPG Sandbox which didn't also start the genre while I also see MMORPGs which take steps towards being tigher-more-polished experiences (aka Themeparks) being more and more successful.
It's also paired with knowledge of what players generally seek out of games, and seeing how Sandbox mechanics line up with that vs. Themepark mechanics. Add in the fact that Themeparks do few-things-well while Sandbox tend to do many-things-poorly. Add in the fact that Simulations (Sandboxes) have historically performed worse than Games (Themeparks) throughout the entire history of videogaming.
It's a hardcore niche which will always see a trickle of low-medium budget games, but anyone who invests AAA resources into it is nuts.
The way to make a great sandbox is to make it incrementally, much like Haven & Hearth or Terraria, and ideally to not rely on being an MMO (because Niche + MMO is an awkward combo and Sandbox + MMO is also a bit awkward,) like Minecraft. So you start with an extremely basic tech which is flexible enough to add new features cheaply. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of Salem (which might take a similar approach to H&H) though the decision to go 3D is a bit odd since 2D made H&H's development lightning quick (with a professional-quality artist it could've been amazing.)
(UPDATE: To be fair, EVE breaks the "remotely successful sandbox" comment I make above, and it's also reasonable if someone wanted to make an argument that an EVE which wasn't stupidly over-complex (but had similar game depth) would actually have a shot at being successful.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In this case the judgement is made based on the fact that I have yet to see a remotely successful MMORPG Sandbox which didn't also start the genre while I also see MMORPGs which take steps towards being tigher-more-polished experiences (aka Themeparks) being more and more successful.
It's also paired with knowledge of what players generally seek out of games, and seeing how Sandbox mechanics line up with that vs. Themepark mechanics. Add in the fact that Themeparks do few-things-well while Sandbox tend to do many-things-poorly. Add in the fact that Simulations (Sandboxes) have historically performed worse than Games (Themeparks) throughout the entire history of videogaming.
It's a hardcore niche which will always see a trickle of low-medium budget games, but anyone who invests AAA resources into it is nuts.
The way to make a great sandbox is to make it incrementally, much like Haven & Hearth or Terraria, and ideally to not rely on being an MMO (because Niche + MMO is an awkward combo and Sandbox + MMO is also a bit awkward,) like Minecraft. So you start with an extremely basic tech which is flexible enough to add new features cheaply. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of Salem (which might take a similar approach to H&H) though the decision to go 3D is a bit odd since 2D made H&H's development lightning quick (with a professional-quality artist it could've been amazing.)
You're assuming that none of the Farmville and RTS Facebook types would transition to something like a hybrid with sandbox features if there were areas that protected their little communities from the pvpers. And your assumption could be %100 correct. I'd still like to see some numbers, though.
I'd also like to see a solid, enjoyable AAA hybrid with heavy sandbox features release in the near future. Archeage I suppose is the closest to that. We'll see whether the developers are willing to curb their pvpers a bit. If so, I might find out if something like what I'm interested in will fly or flop. If not, it will be another Darkfall, but maybe with more complexity and content it will still be successful as a pvp game. Not sure what the development costs are on it either way, though. It might be in the lower range.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Then include Ultima Online in the list next time. No sandbox is not "lets you go everywhere and play how you want," WOW lets you go everywhere and play how you want, but WOW aint no sandbox.
Actually All MMO are sandboxes. Actually almost all MMO's are wow-clone themeparks.
People just keep adding on their defintion to what a Sandbox is the beginning. Nope, there is only one good definition and it's mine. Sandbox=player created content.
The games that where called sandboxes like GTA and Spiderman games. Sandbox just refers to game with out levels that was Sandboxes was in the beginning.You game forced to play with levels aka Mario level 1-1,1-2,1-3,1-4. That's you making a bad definition of sandbox.
Even in a sandbox, the developers need to create content. I think that's one of the reasons that latter sandboxes have not had as much success, there seems to be this idea that you can make a completely empty game, plop in some players and it's enough.
All games are on a continuum between 100% pure sandbox like Second Life and 100% Pure Themepark (DDO comes closest i think). Everything else somewhere in between.
In a sandbox game, i expect players to encounter pre-designed mechanics and content, but to develop them into new gameplay possibilities via interaction.
In creating new jingos and cliches you keep it simple, duderonomy.
Comments
I am. And deaf too.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It's still on my I want to play it eventually list. There was so much buzz and community there for a while I thought it would be a real winner. Then later it seemed to have dried up.
You're all wrong...
The only sandbox game left worth playing is Minecraft, lol.
But Archage with it's 100+ classes, somewhat realword physics (at least it has gravity!), and player housing looks really really good and I think is our last best hope for a AAA sandbox. And it's from a Korean company for pete's sake! What's up with that?
It's still on my I want to play it eventually list. There was so much buzz and community there for a while I thought it would be a real winner. Then later it seemed to have dried up.
FE doesn't seem to be a full on sandbox to me. It seems much more like a harsh theme park game with skill based advancement and a comprehensive crafting system. And wonky combat...really wonky combat.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yeah when Archeage comes out it is the AAA Sandbox MMO that is going to wtfpwn Themepark games forever and ever and make them eat poop just like Darkfall and MO and EvE and FE did...
oh wait...
I've been playing this genre since UO 1999.
Are there some things I really miss about those games? Yes.
Is there a way to combine the best of those features with the "modern" MMO feature list? Hopefully.
Are modern games a whole lot better and more fun? In general, yes.
Not all oldschool sandbox gamers are blind.
Some of us can see the positive changes the genre has evolved over time.
But that doesn't mean there aren't thing I really miss about the classics...
******THIS*******
Also I would like to point out that most of those games you listed are either old, has horrible gameplay, or is niche driven.
Alot of us want a spiritual successor to the old school MMO's. I myself am looking for a spiritual successor to Asherons Call, and untill a AAA developer comes along and devotes millions of $$$ on such an endeavor I will forever complain till I get what I want.
Besides there has not been a AAA Sandbox MMO since FOREVAR!!!! I honestly think a AAA mmo that focuses on exploration (through dungeons as well as a huge overland world), Long Term character development through an alternate advancement system, Focus on PvE, Crafting, Character Housing, A truely unique to MMO loot system (Diablo/AC/Fate), classless character system, open world raids, old school camping of dynamic rare spawns, and other trademark sandbox elements.
A sandbox does not = MO or DF, most truely diehard sandbox enthusiasts want a PvE sandbox that carrys on the AC or EQ experience.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Then include Ultima Online in the list next time. No sandbox is not "lets you go everywhere and play how you want," WOW lets you go everywhere and play how you want, but WOW aint no sandbox.
Sandbox=Player created content
Themepark=Developer created content
Good sandbox examples are Gary's Mod, Minecraft, Wurm, and modding.
Quasi-sandbox examples are SWG and UO
Everything else is a themepark wow-clone.
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I still don't see how they spend 100 million dollars to make a game.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
*lol* if all 100 million $ is giving you are craptastic graphics, linear gameplay, limited options in "favour" of the almighty story so what?
Good games are speaking for themselves with great gameplay they don't need tons of bought reviews, viral marketers and other PR crap.
I'm praying to god ArcheAge will be different enough, so the all the hype-buyers and instant gratification players won't even touch it. Rather have a smaller but loyal and helpful community instead of grammar-nazis, Chuck Norris jokes, kids and easymode "balance" crybabies.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I'm gonna put my money on Tribes Ascend and GW2, and I'll wait for awhile to get GW2. I'll play Fallen Earth when it goes F2P and am curious about Salem.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
Actually All MMO are sandboxes.People just keep adding on their defintion to what a Sandbox is the beginning.The games that where called sandboxes like GTA and Spiderman games. Sandbox just refers to game with out levels that was Sandboxes was in the beginning.You game forced to play with levels aka Mario level 1-1,1-2,1-3,1-4.
Somewhere along the line MMO fan more stuff to defintion of Sandbox was a game wuth no levels that let play throught how you want to play aka no set path was called a sandbox.Some where along the line Sandboxes turn from a game with no levels to realistic virtual world for MMO fans.
GTA is a Sandbox,Ulitma is Sandbox,Oblivion is a sandbox
Q: Are oldschool gamers blind?
A: Yes, CRT(Cathode Ray Tube) monitors.
/thread
I hate people using Sandbox titles not having a wow-type success as reasons why noone will do a big-budget sandbox title. The reality is that there have been two big-budget sandbox games: Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. Both of those were successful titles, but they were also flawed titles.
UO was a 2d game, as 2d was going out of style. It's PvP system encouraged player ganking, which frustrated many players. If they soloed they'd be ganked by gangs of PKs who would take all of their stuff, and if they tried to get revenge they would often turn Red because the PKers would use whirling blades and exploits to flag the player as Grey before they attacked them. Thieves were everywhere and even if you called for the Guards on them they often worked in tandems and someone else would gank your stuff before they did. There were exploits everywhere, not much in the way of questing or AI, and the recall stones allowed players to bypass content. All of those problems aside, it was still a successful title.
SWG was badly rushed to market. At launch the servers kept crashing, players kept losing items when their corpses disappeared, the insurance system was harsh, combat was completely imbalanced and unchallenging, vehicles and cities weren't in the game yet, the jedi system required a long ridiculous grind that required players to continually unlearn and remaster skill trees, etc. It was still successful despite those flaws.
WoW raised the bar of subscription numbers and suddenly every other game seems to be a failure when compared to it. But a lot of people (myself included) have the firm belief that an updated version of those games that corrects their flaws would be a smash success. The problem is, the big studios are not willing to take that risk. So we wind up with small budget or indie titles creating them, and then players complain about a lack of polish and use that as an example of sandboxes being unsuccessful. It's circular logic.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
We are not even talking about WoW success,Screw WoW numbers,WoW is freak nature.We talking about Aion numbers,Linage 2 numbers,We are talking about Aoc and War launch numbers.Yes it is unfair because you can honestly say no big game sandbox was made but no Sandbox has come close to AoC launch numbers,No Sandbox has come close to War launch numbers,certainly nothing has even sniff Linage 2 or Aion numbers.We all know it silly think that Sandbox can't sell as much but looking at money and buiness perspective until one sandbox proves it can make money then industry will stay focus on themeparks and themeparks are making money you can hate on them.It is like comic book movies until it is was proven that one could make money then we didn't have any,no we are flooded comic books movies it is not fair but that how it works.
A interesting note is both sandboxes where back by strong IP,Star Wars and the Ultima series.That is where next big success will probably come for sandboxes.My hope was for the Elder Scroll series to make a Sandbox MMO but recent announcement by one of their devs can shot that down.It also strange that no company has used on of older IP sandboxes Ultima Online 2,Asheron Call 3 or Shadowbane 2 either
Also the industry isn't completely open with numbers so when people call games like Aoc,Lotor,War failures but in 2008 AoC,Lotor and War made somewhere between 50 to150 million dollars.Think about Aoc and Lotor isn't War which cost 100 million pretend AoC cost 80 million and Lotor cost 70 million to make,How close do think they are make back the money it took them to make it.What do you think Companies see when they see Fantasy westward Journey,Perfect World,Club penguin pull down silly numbers.People have seen the recent conversions to free to play and doubling and tripling profit for games like Aoc and Lotor.The point is this MMORPG are doing whole lot better than people think and companies are willing to make slight improvement on working formula try to go after making WoW money and if they fail they still are making pretty good money
http://gigaom.com/2009/02/01/top-10-money-making-mmos-2008/
http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-06-12/study_reveals_top_10_money_making_mmos_in_2009_5_made_in_china,1.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27581/Study_US_Gamers_Spent_38_Billion_On_MMOs_in_2009.php
You know what? this kind of argument is ridiculous. Sandbox need to prove what?
Uo started the mmo trend, in fact it didn't started but put it on rail. Without Uo, games probably would have stayed on the multiplayer level, and i'm not very sure of the success of either EQ, nor lineage would have been this big without UO making all the ground job for them.
Even the sub model was brought by UO, as well as the notion of virtual world, and many other ideas even the most hardcore themepark or other build just can't get rid off. Look at all the arcade like mmo that failed these last few years, and every time people brought the same issue. A mmo cannot be just a massive multiplayer game, it need a virtual world and some crafting/economy to back this up and give your character some "reality". So please, the Wow generation, try at least to give respect to whom it is due.
Even for the most anti sandbox gamer, some of the core sandbox concept is absolutely needed to make an mmo, but they just don't even know it.
If anything sandbox already prooved and proove themselves at every new realease, even on non sandboxes releases.
I would say instead:
Sandbox = player derived content
Themepark = 100% developer defined content
Even in a sandbox, the developers need to create content. I think that's one of the reasons that latter sandboxes have not had as much success, there seems to be this idea that you can make a completely empty game, plop in some players and it's enough.
All games are on a continuum between 100% pure sandbox like Second Life and 100% Pure Themepark (DDO comes closest i think). Everything else somewhere in between.
In a sandbox game, i expect players to encounter pre-designed mechanics and content, but to develop them into new gameplay possibilities via interaction.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The market was a lot smaller back then. People didn't know what an MMORPG was. Every single major title that is released these days breaks previous MMO sales records for that very reason. Star Wars Galaxies sold over a million units. Unfortunately the game needed at least 6 months longer in beta testing, or else it would have likely been a larger hit.
Comparing other recent sandbox titles to larger budget titles is not a fair comparison by any stretch. There have been far fewer sandboxes as everyone rushed to clone WoW. The few sandbox releases their have been have come from smaller independent teams. They don't have the manpower or budget to compete with releases like Warhammer, Age of Conan, Aion, Lord of the Rings Online, etc. As a result they generally ship underpolished. Without a recognizable name, and given they are probably shipping with less polish, to expect them to be a huge hit out of the gate would be optimistic at best.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
You can think the arguement is crazy but i can back it up
Look at superheroes movies it was not till Spiderman blew up did companies see the value of them,Tons of them pop up
Look at FPS shooters when Halo had it success tons of shooters came out,When Call of duty blew up tons of Military shooter came out
Look at Boy bands and girl pop music when Backstreet boys and brintey spear blew up you saw tons acts like that follow.
Look at Moba.LoL had success and look at how many Moba are being made
What you guys are missing is that when devs go to company say they making a game you need to invest 100 million in a game,Investor go where is the proof of success of course their isn't any with that style of game right now it is hard to just spending that much money with proof success,People will say what about the failures even when you look at the so call failures they each did amazing well in the beginning( and are doing better than people think) meaning to big shots if we figure out to keep to customers then we will be huge.Every company knows WoW is coming to end they each think that they can be that one to take all those customers.
Basically they are shooting for WoW 11 million and even if they fail to get that then dropping and get 5 million or even 1 million is great,even 800k and 700k of War and Aoc look impressive numbers if you can hold those numbers for 1 or 2 years you can make back 100 million easy.They think can fix whatever probelms those game had make tons of money.You look at Rifts they already have better rention rate than AoC,Aion or War.Themeparks have already figure out what is strategy push lots of content out after release and have a server merger plan nessary or Rifts case offer free transfers.Then in worse case switch convert over to free to play.I am sure SWTOR already has server merger plan ready.
My point is just like Third person shooters,Sandbox games are minority.I could have statement my point in less taunting fashion.Really i want to say three things in this thread
1.Themeparks will probably always be market majority now and you will probably see very few AAA sandboxes.Just like you see few third person shooters
2.They are sandboxes still now how ever bad or average,The industry has not stop making them.It has switch from the big companies to indies,most like that is where you find your next game not SOE or EA.More pressure is need to make indie companies release polish games and stop releasing them early.
3.They are making Sandboxes now like Archage and Repopulation(with hero engine same as SWTOR).More focus should go to those games than complain about the past they will never come back.
IIt sound like i am hating on Sandboxes i am not ,I am waiting on great sandbox game myself but I am waiting on great action mmorpg(hopefully Tera),I am waiting great theme park MMORPG that isn't trying to be WoW(hopefully Guild Wars 2),I am waiting on good MMOFPS(hopefully Planetside),I am waiting great MMORPG that has old school elements(hopefully EQnext or 38 studio Amular mmo).Maybe because i am look for great mmo and not just a great sandbox i have different perspective than somebody who is waiting for a good sandbox game.
Like I said the mmo industry is big enough to support all types MMORPG,while i understand why market isn't flood with sandboxes,I don't know their isn't at least one big AAA sandbox MMO
@OP
No they are not.
Most people that want sandbox game , are aware of titles you wrote.
People who discuss/ compain about sandbox want AAA quality game.
Not another indie game.
Not old game like Ultima.
Not bugged , very niche PvP fest like Darkfall or MO.
Game that is polished , good support and has AAA quality.
Simple.
Chances that a there will be AAA sandbox p2p game produced anytime soon? Slim to none.
ArcheAge will be interesting game for sure, and it might please some , (hope it will please me) but it is themepark with some sandbox elements. if it will be exceptionally good it might make those topics be more rare for some time, but well we'll have to see how this game will turn out.
So get used to it OP. You will see hundreads of similar "there is no sandbox" threads in future. Don't whine.
In this case the judgement is made based on the fact that I have yet to see a remotely successful MMORPG Sandbox which didn't also start the genre while I also see MMORPGs which take steps towards being tigher-more-polished experiences (aka Themeparks) being more and more successful.
It's also paired with knowledge of what players generally seek out of games, and seeing how Sandbox mechanics line up with that vs. Themepark mechanics. Add in the fact that Themeparks do few-things-well while Sandbox tend to do many-things-poorly. Add in the fact that Simulations (Sandboxes) have historically performed worse than Games (Themeparks) throughout the entire history of videogaming.
It's a hardcore niche which will always see a trickle of low-medium budget games, but anyone who invests AAA resources into it is nuts.
The way to make a great sandbox is to make it incrementally, much like Haven & Hearth or Terraria, and ideally to not rely on being an MMO (because Niche + MMO is an awkward combo and Sandbox + MMO is also a bit awkward,) like Minecraft. So you start with an extremely basic tech which is flexible enough to add new features cheaply. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of Salem (which might take a similar approach to H&H) though the decision to go 3D is a bit odd since 2D made H&H's development lightning quick (with a professional-quality artist it could've been amazing.)
(UPDATE: To be fair, EVE breaks the "remotely successful sandbox" comment I make above, and it's also reasonable if someone wanted to make an argument that an EVE which wasn't stupidly over-complex (but had similar game depth) would actually have a shot at being successful.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're assuming that none of the Farmville and RTS Facebook types would transition to something like a hybrid with sandbox features if there were areas that protected their little communities from the pvpers. And your assumption could be %100 correct. I'd still like to see some numbers, though.
I'd also like to see a solid, enjoyable AAA hybrid with heavy sandbox features release in the near future. Archeage I suppose is the closest to that. We'll see whether the developers are willing to curb their pvpers a bit. If so, I might find out if something like what I'm interested in will fly or flop. If not, it will be another Darkfall, but maybe with more complexity and content it will still be successful as a pvp game. Not sure what the development costs are on it either way, though. It might be in the lower range.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
In creating new jingos and cliches you keep it simple, duderonomy.