No, it's not. Even EQ which lost 200k to its successor WoW still had a fairly large subscriber base for years afterwards.
It did ok for a while after WoW.
But to be fair, EQ is basically done at this point. They have 4 developers left or something and I'm pretty sure one of them is just there to make coffee.
we MMORPG player can finally enjoy our games in public places without a bunch ignorant and/or clueless WoW fanbois (and lately sandbox fanbois jumping on the bandwagon trying to undermine thempark styled games as a whole) jumping at each and every remotely fantasy styled online game that was released around, shortly before and after WoW and accuse it to be a WoW-clone?
I approve of that. Finally some good news for the whole genre...
I believe both sandbox and themepark can work together, just need to be coorperative, no need to go after each other throats, lol.
Now that it seems theme park is going down hill a new way of playing mmo is needed, and its definately not going back to the old style.
So many logic and reasoning flaws that people on this site keep committing...
Ok, bear with me:
some muslim extremists being terrorists =/= all muslims being terrorists
gamers being bored with SC2 or Modern Warfare 2 =/= gamers being bored with all RTS or shooter games of the same style
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being bored with all themepark MMO's
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being automatically instantly in love with sandbox MMO's
Many MMO gamers being bored with WOW "could" mean that they are bored with themepark MMO's, especially when most other themeparks tend to fall off rather quickly in terms of long term subscribers. (see Rift as an excellent example of this) I think how SWTOR fairs will be a great indicator of whether or not this is the case.
And while MMO gamers being bored with themepark games such as SWTOR or WOW does not mean they'll be in love with sanbox MMO's, (whatever those really are btw) it "could" mean they're ready for something different to come along.
Now the trick is, what exactly would constitute a different and fun MMORPG experience to those players. That's the million dollar question.
The flaw in the reasoning of the OP (and many others on these forums) isn't acknowledging the possibility that such a situation could be the case for some people in the referred group, but to extrapolate the observation into a blanket generalisation and present that as a surefire case.
Examples:
WoW is losing subs => WoW is doomed
No, it's not. Even EQ which lost 200k to its successor WoW still had a fairly large subscriber base for years afterwards.
If some gamers have grown tired of MW2 could mean that some of those have grown tired of that style of shooters in general, but it's definitely not the case that everyone who grows tired of MW2 has grown tired of that style of shooters nor that type of multiplayer games, and the same applies for people who've grown tired of SC2, doesn't mean that RTS games like that in general has lost their interest.
Same for WoW and themepark MMO's.
How many are tired of themepark MMO's or just tired of WoW, only time will be able to tell.
The fact that every themepark mmo released for the last few years has fallen way below expectations just goes to show that people are tired of themeparks. SWTOR is going to reveal a lot about this. It is my personal opinion thatt this game will fall way below expectations, infact I believe it will go exactly as Aion did, before launch it was THE game that people were talking about, after launch, it was just another flop.
IF SWTOR fails hard, it will add massive weight to the idea that people are bored with themeparks. That is my opinion.
The fact that every themepark mmo released for the last few years has fallen way below expectations just goes to show that people are tired of themeparks. SWTOR is going to reveal a lot about this. It is my personal opinion thatt this game will fall way below expectations, infact I believe it will go exactly as Aion did, before launch it was THE game that people were talking about, after launch, it was just another flop.
IF SWTOR fails hard, it will add massive weight to the idea that people are bored with themeparks. That is my opinion.
SWTOR won't be a success if they lose most of their customers soon after release. Every similar MMO to it in the past few years has been the same, huge preorder numbers, but fails to retain subscribers beyond the free month. SWTOR will be no different, it brings nothing new to the genre and does nothing better. Quest npc speech isn't going to suddenly make everyone love it.
Education is a major problem in America. This is why good games like UO / SWG Classic / DAoC are cosidered to be too complicated. People blame the devs. I blame the devs AND the parents.
Can you spout more BS? Although you have my "Person is talking out their arse" meter maxed, it would be interesting to see what an overload of horsechit would do to it.
IQ/education level has nothing to do with what type of gaming a person enjoys. I suppose the Doctor that was 6 boxing in EQ was a bloody idjut cause he wasnt doing the same thing in SWG? Nah I would say he found the "entertainment" factor lacking....like so many of us did. The PRECioUs was a POS. Buggy, and nothing to do save play a burnt n crispy Uncle Owen.
Folks interested in building things, and various micro manage games, can do so thru facebook and other applications these days. That was where Koster run off to, which basically says it all. Those looking for action/progression are the ones more apt to subscribe to an MMO, and sandbox fails to deliver for folks in this category.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
SWTOR won't be a success if they lose most of their customers soon after release. Every similar MMO to it in the past few years has been the same, huge preorder numbers, but fails to retain subscribers beyond the free month. SWTOR will be no different, it brings nothing new to the genre and does nothing better. Quest npc speech isn't going to suddenly make everyone love it.
Yep sure thing there Skippy. TOR is going to sell more boxes in the first yr than almost all sandboxes ever have....combined that is.
The best sub sumbers have always come from properly built themeparks. Since EQ launched, sandbox sub numbers havent come close. YOu wanna look at games like ST:O, MxO, or WAR? Sure they were crap. I look at games like EQ(450k at max), EQ2(300 ish K at max), LoTRO(300 ish K at max), FF11(unsure but 400 to 500K worldwide max), and lets not forget that 10 ton elephant WOW at 11M.
Sandboxes have EVE, and that is fueled by folks being able to trade in game currancy for game time. EVE got up to about 350k, but has taken a little hit due to PR. One pathetic showing when compared to 4 games that have done as well or better, and that isnt mentioning WOW.
A company would have to be out of their mind to fund 50 or 100M to building a sandbox. The number of persons clamoring for it just doesnt warrant the investment. Instead they can take their money, put out a quality themepark, and at minimum make their money back.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I am looking forward to seeing a great sandbox MMO. UI and Runescape are not completely sandbox (No MMORPG really is) but then again I hope I see a great new MMORPG that has embraced the sandbox concepts.
SWTOR won't be a success if they lose most of their customers soon after release. Every similar MMO to it in the past few years has been the same, huge preorder numbers, but fails to retain subscribers beyond the free month. SWTOR will be no different, it brings nothing new to the genre and does nothing better. Quest npc speech isn't going to suddenly make everyone love it.
Yep sure thing there Skippy. TOR is going to sell more boxes in the first yr than almost all sandboxes ever have....combined that is.
The best sub sumbers have always come from properly built themeparks. Since EQ launched, sandbox sub numbers havent come close. YOu wanna look at games like ST:O, MxO, or WAR? Sure they were crap. I look at games like EQ(450k at max), EQ2(300 ish K at max), LoTRO(300 ish K at max), FF11(unsure but 400 to 500K worldwide max), and lets not forget that 10 ton elephant WOW at 11M.
Sandboxes have EVE, and that is fueled by folks being able to trade in game currancy for game time. EVE got up to about 350k, but has taken a little hit due to PR. One pathetic showing when compared to 4 games that have done as well or better, and that isnt mentioning WOW.
A company would have to be out of their mind to fund 50 or 100M to building a sandbox. The number of persons clamoring for it just doesnt warrant the investment. Instead they can take their money, put out a quality themepark, and at minimum make their money back.
Someone can't handle the truth being spoken about their game
SWTOR is on the same failbot as Aion, FFXIV, Warhammer etc. Huge preorder numbers but loses most players within a month of release. History is repeating itself over and over and it won't be any different with SWTOR. There is no evidence that SWTOR is going to break this mould, infact there is a great deal of evidence to the oppsite.
I'm not surpised that sandboxes don't get large preorder numbers, the only companies making them are small indy companies on a low budget. It's no wonder they never sell many copies compared to the big budget big name company themepark games. The big budget themepark mmos that sell a lot of preorders invest more money into advertising than these small indy companies can afford to put into their entire game development.
Never has a big name company even tried to create a big budget sandbox mmo. Not since EQ came along with its shiny 3D graphics that made UO 2d graphics look crap.
Blizzard might just be doing this with Titan though, if anyone has the smarts and enough money to break the mould, it's them.
Someone can't handle the truth being spoken about their game
SWTOR is on the same failbot as Aion, FFXIV, Warhammer etc. Huge preorder numbers but loses most players within a month of release. History is repeating itself over and over and it won't be any different with SWTOR.
I'm not surpised that sandboxes doesn't get large preorder numbers, the only companies making them are small indy companies on a low budget. It's no wonder they never sell many copies compared to the big budget big name company themepark games. The big budget themepark mmos that sell a lot of preorders invest more money into advertising than these small indy companies can afford to put into their entire game development.
Never has a big name company even tried to create a big budget sandbox mmo. Not since EQ came along with its shiny 3D graphics that made UO 2d graphics look crap.
Aion made over 200 million dollars in revenues last year, still has 75-100 servers worldwide and easily over a million subs worldwide, I hardly would call that a fail. The world is bigger than the US, you know.
If history is repeating itself, then we can see another WoW situation happen, where a renowned top game company dives into the MMO market, picks up the best features of the preceding MMO's and implements them into its own MMO with tweaks and polishing... oh, wait, that was probably not the history you were referring to, weren't you? But, it still IS part of history as well, just as LotrO being able to hold on to the larger part of their player base for more than a year until they made some other errors, or an Aion doing great in the east with lots of players and revenues.
Face it, themepark MMO genre won't go away, neither will game designers suddenly turn to a sandbox concept. You can wait 1 year, 2 years, heck, even 5 or more years, but you'll have to face the fact that the MMO genre will always have a hell of a lot of MMORPG's that you just won't like. Hoping for something else is just fooling yourself. Just enjoy the few MMO's that do fall within your taste range is the best thing you can do.
Originally posted by evemaster00
The fact that every themepark mmo released for the last few years has fallen way below expectations just goes to show that people are tired of themeparks. SWTOR is going to reveal a lot about this. It is my personal opinion thatt this game will fall way below expectations, infact I believe it will go exactly as Aion did, before launch it was THE game that people were talking about, after launch, it was just another flop.
IF SWTOR fails hard, it will add massive weight to the idea that people are bored with themeparks. That is my opinion.
Like said, LotrO did pretty good for a long time, Aion made over 200 million dollars in revenues and is still played by over a million people on 75-100 servers (to illustrate: EU+US player population of 900k+ was facilitated by about 30-35 servers).
If SWTOR succeeds or even does well, there goes any theory that themepark MMO's bores all MMO gamers instead of just a disgruntled, jaded minority, a theory that was already on shaky grounds considering how many MMO gamers are playing themepark styled MMO's compared to non-themepark MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm amazed by the precognitive powers some of you are displaying. Where on earth did you get that crystal ball? I want one too.
Saying that themepark MMOs will imminently die off or, on the contrary, will stick around forever is pure speculation and both arguments are worthless. Nobody knows what the future is made of, nobody could have predicted WoW's huge success and nobody can predict the demise of the themepark sub genre.
I'm also amazed by the resilience of Maverick's denial about TOR being a blatant WoW clone (way more than WoW was an EQ clone, at any rate).
WoW "stole" ideas from several pre existing games. TOR from a single one. There's quite a big difference there.
LOL! Gotta love it when people claim that regressing to outdated gameplay is the future. Those that point out that there are "wow-clones" that failed can't seem to remember that there were a slew of "Diablo clones" that ALSO failed. It succeeded by being the first to do a number of things, including Battlenet.
It seems as though the OP is saying that WoW-esque MMO's are the reason iso's aren't being made like they used to be. If so, I disagree. Once upon a time, technology favored iso games to third person. 3D video cards were rare during UO's development, and certainly weren't commonplace when they released, and without 3d acceleration, you could create alot more detail and texturing in an iso map than you could a 1st-3rd person perspective. Nowadays, technology is such that that advantage is gone; you can have as much detail and more with a 1st-3rd person format, where your character can actually have more than 150 pixels worth of detail.
That's not to say that a modern iso game can't be an interesting change of pace. If D3 gets some good reviews and features indicate something I'd be into, I'll probably buy it. Heck, I'll buy a top-down shooter if I can demo it and find it to my liking. But the notion that people will walk away from 1st and 3rd person MMO's to some resurgence of the ISO MMO is kinda silly. It didn't happen when UO got its facelift, and it won't happen, now.
I liked Diablo, largely because it was the first time I played a real-time game that felt like DnD. The dungeon crawling... the loot... the traps... it was all there from a fairly shallow perspective, but still went much further than anything else in a real-time format. But now, there are a slew of better options.
And I'd bet that's what's holding D3 up. Despite modern advances, the challenge is making it a great game, IN SPITE of the iso format. In the end, I think they'll succeed to some extent, but I don't think it will be the revolution that Diablo was. It's a regressive move to make it in the first place; time will tell if it turns out to be a great sequel, or... Smokey and the Bandit 3.
LOL! Gotta love it when people claim that regressing to outdated gameplay is the future. Those that point out that there are "wow-clones" that failed can't seem to remember that there were a slew of "Diablo clones" that ALSO failed. It succeeded by being the first to do a number of things, including Battlenet.
It seems as though the OP is saying that WoW-esque MMO's are the reason iso's aren't being made like they used to be. If so, I disagree. Once upon a time, technology favored iso games to third person. 3D video cards were rare during UO's development, and certainly weren't commonplace when they released, and without 3d acceleration, you could create alot more detail and texturing in an iso map than you could a 1st-3rd person perspective. Nowadays, technology is such that that advantage is gone; you can have as much detail and more with a 1st-3rd person format, where your character can actually have more than 150 pixels worth of detail.
That's not to say that a modern iso game can't be an interesting change of pace. If D3 gets some good reviews and features indicate something I'd be into, I'll probably buy it. Heck, I'll buy a top-down shooter if I can demo it and find it to my liking. But the notion that people will walk away from 1st and 3rd person MMO's to some resurgence of the ISO MMO is kinda silly. It didn't happen when UO got its facelift, and it won't happen, now.
I liked Diablo, largely because it was the first time I played a real-time game that felt like DnD. The dungeon crawling... the loot... the traps... it was all there from a fairly shallow perspective, but still went much further than anything else in a real-time format. But now, there are a slew of better options.
And I'd bet that's what's holding D3 up. Despite modern advances, the challenge is making it a great game, IN SPITE of the iso format. In the end, I think they'll succeed to some extent, but I don't think it will be the revolution that Diablo was. It's a regressive move to make it in the first place; time will tell if it turns out to be a great sequel, or... Smokey and the Bandit 3.
UO's so called facelift was major fail, the new client looks worse than the old one. Now if they had made it look like Lineage: Eternal.... that would have been something. But it looked nothing like that, it was major fail.
Saying that themepark MMOs will imminently die off or, on the contrary, will stick around forever is pure speculation and both arguments are worthless. Nobody knows what the future is made of, nobody could have predicted WoW's huge success and nobody can predict the demise of the themepark sub genre.
I'm also amazed by the resilience of Maverick's denial about TOR being a blatant WoW clone (way more than WoW was an EQ clone, at any rate).
WoW "stole" ideas from several pre existing games. TOR from a single one. There's quite a big difference there.
What an amazing day!
Yep, it seems that some people can't just inject more common sense and objectivity in their arguments and just keep going on their personal soapboxes, that's why I try to do it instead.
But enough about that. About your argument, you call SWTOR a 'blatant WoW clone', one look at your user name leads me to suspect that you hate/despise/dislike themepark MMORPG's, therefore you'll always fail to acknowledge any value or merit to them. So yes, I agree, in your eyes TOR is a blatant WoW clone, emphasis on the negative, derogatory insinuation that expresses scorn towards themepark MMO's.
For people that hate/despise themepark MMO's it's obvious that they don't want to acknowledge any positive aspect towards any MMORPG in that genre, that's logical.
Me, I look at it more objectively and just call it what it is, a themepark MMORPG with all the typical themepark MMO features with its own twist and on the level of other themepark MMO's like a WoW, LotrO, Aion etc.
I can fully understand though how themepark haters and jaded, burnt out MMO gamers will never be able to say anything positive about themepark styled MMO's. It's simply not in most people's nature, to be positive or look openminded or objectively towards the thing(s) they despise or passionately dislike.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Saying that themepark MMOs will imminently die off or, on the contrary, will stick around forever is pure speculation and both arguments are worthless. Nobody knows what the future is made of, nobody could have predicted WoW's huge success and nobody can predict the demise of the themepark sub genre.
I'm also amazed by the resilience of Maverick's denial about TOR being a blatant WoW clone (way more than WoW was an EQ clone, at any rate).
WoW "stole" ideas from several pre existing games. TOR from a single one. There's quite a big difference there.
What an amazing day!
Yep, it seems that some people can't just inject more common sense and objectivity in their arguments and just keep going on their personal soapboxes, that's why I try to do it instead.
But enough about that. About your argument, you call SWTOR a 'blatant WoW clone', one look at your user name leads me to suspect that you hate/despise/dislike themepark MMORPG's, therefore you'll always fail to acknowledge any value or merit to them. So yes, I agree, in your eyes TOR is a blatant WoW clone, emphasis on the negative, derogatory insinuation that expresses scorn towards themepark MMO's.
For people that hate/despise themepark MMO's it's obvious that they don't want to acknowledge any positive aspect towards any MMORPG in that genre, that's logical.
Me, I look at it more objectively and just call it what it is, a themepark MMORPG with all the typical themepark MMO features with its own twist and on the level of other themepark MMO's like a WoW, LotrO, Aion etc.
I can fully understand though how themepark haters and jaded, burnt out MMO gamers will never be able to say anything positive about themepark styled MMO's. It's simply not in most people's nature, to be positive or look openminded or objectively towards the thing(s) they despise or passionately dislike.
Just goes to show how wrong you are. I've not said there's anything specifcially wrong with themepark mmos, only that style of mmo being released over and over in a different setting is getting old now. It has been getting old for ages. Aion has large subs? Must be mostly from korea then, it is a korean game afterall.
How much was spent on developing SWTOR? $300 million or something? They would need to sell several million copies to get their money back. At a guess i'd say they'll be lucky to hit 2 million preorders and they'll lose most of those players after the free month. Also they'll lose a lot of players during early access because people can still cancel their order during early access.
Originally posted by evemaster00 Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by evemaster00
SWTOR won't be a success if they lose most of their customers soon after release. Every similar MMO to it in the past few years has been the same, huge preorder numbers, but fails to retain subscribers beyond the free month. SWTOR will be no different, it brings nothing new to the genre and does nothing better. Quest npc speech isn't going to suddenly make everyone love it.
Yep sure thing there Skippy. TOR is going to sell more boxes in the first yr than almost all sandboxes ever have....combined that is. The best sub sumbers have always come from properly built themeparks. Since EQ launched, sandbox sub numbers havent come close. YOu wanna look at games like ST:O, MxO, or WAR? Sure they were crap. I look at games like EQ(450k at max), EQ2(300 ish K at max), LoTRO(300 ish K at max), FF11(unsure but 400 to 500K worldwide max), and lets not forget that 10 ton elephant WOW at 11M. Sandboxes have EVE, and that is fueled by folks being able to trade in game currancy for game time. EVE got up to about 350k, but has taken a little hit due to PR. One pathetic showing when compared to 4 games that have done as well or better, and that isnt mentioning WOW. A company would have to be out of their mind to fund 50 or 100M to building a sandbox. The number of persons clamoring for it just doesnt warrant the investment. Instead they can take their money, put out a quality themepark, and at minimum make their money back.
Someone can't handle the truth being spoken about their game SWTOR is on the same failbot as Aion, FFXIV, Warhammer etc. Huge preorder numbers but loses most players within a month of release. History is repeating itself over and over and it won't be any different with SWTOR. There is no evidence that SWTOR is going to break this mould, infact there is a great deal of evidence to the oppsite. I'm not surpised that sandboxes don't get large preorder numbers, the only companies making them are small indy companies on a low budget. It's no wonder they never sell many copies compared to the big budget big name company themepark games. The big budget themepark mmos that sell a lot of preorders invest more money into advertising than these small indy companies can afford to put into their entire game development. Never has a big name company even tried to create a big budget sandbox mmo. Not since EQ came along with its shiny 3D graphics that made UO 2d graphics look crap. Blizzard might just be doing this with Titan though, if anyone has the smarts and enough money to break the mould, it's them.
The failure of most games has nothing to do with the type of game it is and everything to do with the production values of the game. Gamers have much higher standards for the mmorpg when it comes to production values compared to ten years ago. Rift has been plenty successful, more so than any other game since WoW. They were successful because of the production values of the game.
SW:ToR probably has production values at least as high as Rift, along with a well known IP, and plenty of brand loyalty. I don't doubt that they could mess it up, but I'd doubt it. The box sales alone will trump anything since WoW. If you think that players don't want another 'quest on rails theme park', then you have seriously misinterpreted what players want.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The era of themeparks is far from over, if anything I think we will see a slide to even more "accessible" (take that to mean what you will) and Facebook orientated mmos in the future. Along with indie sandboxes with budgets of $5 along the way here and there ofc.
The morass of the consumerbase is different now. Whilst there may be a few thousand (or less) clamouring for the next UO (I wish), there are millions who don't give a shit about that and just want to be able to quickly queue up for their shinies, which is fair enough if that's what they find fun.
Tbh I can actually see a move somewhat to fps style mmos on the market place (PS2, the new Tribes, Firefall et al), given the size and scope of the fps orientated playerbase that particular trend has a chance of taking off now that the technology has/is catching up.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Just goes to show how wrong you are. I've not said there's anything specifcially wrong with themepark mmos, only that style of mmo being released over and over in a different setting is getting old now. It has been getting old for ages. Aion has large subs? Must be mostly from korea then, it is a korean game afterall.
How much was spent on developing SWTOR? $300 million or something? They would need to sell several million copies to get their money back. At a guess i'd say they'll be lucky to hit 2 million preorders and they'll lose most of those players after the free month. Also they'll lose a lot of players during early access because people can still cancel their order during early access.
And so it goes back to that (untrue) chestnut. Of which there was only one source, a disgruntled ex-employee whose rantings you could ONLY believe if you were looking for reasons that the game will fail while ignoring everything else.
Just goes to show how wrong you are. I've not said there's anything specifcially wrong with themepark mmos, only that style of mmo being released over and over in a different setting is getting old now. It has been getting old for ages. Aion has large subs? Must be mostly from korea then, it is a korean game afterall.
How much was spent on developing SWTOR? $300 million or something? They would need to sell several million copies to get their money back. At a guess i'd say they'll be lucky to hit 2 million preorders and they'll lose most of those players after the free month. Also they'll lose a lot of players during early access because people can still cancel their order during early access.
Aion has its servers not only in Korea, but in other parts of Asia as well, besides of course the US and EU servers.
The 300 million dollar was a rumor by a disgruntled ex-employee or hate mongerer, this rumor from an anonymous blogger has been debunked in various ways already, only persistent haters and critics who want to see MMO's that they dislike fail still believe that. The more realistic estimations that have been made hover around 80-100 million dollars.
As for the rest, my grandma in her resting house can make estimations and predictions that are equally valid, heck, anyone can play fortune teller and come up with random gibberish figures. They're meaningless and quite frankly hilarious in their meaninglessness. It's just wishful thinking, unless you're a psychic but then I have to wonder what the hell you're doing here instead of playing the stock market.
Like I said, that's the kind of wishful thinking that people hold on to who dislike a game so much that they hope from the bottom of the heart that it'll fail. Not really a good foundation to make sound, at least somewhat objective estimations.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh, sorry, I have to blog it to make it official, right?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
mav people still posting that 300 million dollar lie obiously cant be reasoned with. we all know now that the 300 million budget was for dragon age 2, tor and mass effect 3 combined. That people dont pay attention enough to actually know this makes them bad trolls.
Tor at most cost 150 million to make. With the price of the ce they will make that back fast.
oh and i guess i cant say tot doesnt have alot of phased areas cause if violates nda but players can say tor is phased everywhere get by with it so oh well.
The facxt bioware has stated on multiple occasions that phasing in tor is limited to class story and is limited to a building not an entire area and my confiming this basicly is a violation of nda and can get me baneed so i cant actually defend tor with facts but players can spout lie after lie after lie and its ok.
Comments
It did ok for a while after WoW.
But to be fair, EQ is basically done at this point. They have 4 developers left or something and I'm pretty sure one of them is just there to make coffee.
I believe both sandbox and themepark can work together, just need to be coorperative, no need to go after each other throats, lol.
Now that it seems theme park is going down hill a new way of playing mmo is needed, and its definately not going back to the old style.
1) Hardcore, sandbox
2) Themepark
3) ????
RIP Orc Choppa
The fact that every themepark mmo released for the last few years has fallen way below expectations just goes to show that people are tired of themeparks. SWTOR is going to reveal a lot about this. It is my personal opinion thatt this game will fall way below expectations, infact I believe it will go exactly as Aion did, before launch it was THE game that people were talking about, after launch, it was just another flop.
IF SWTOR fails hard, it will add massive weight to the idea that people are bored with themeparks. That is my opinion.
And i totally agree with you there sir...
RIP Orc Choppa
I dont think we are going to see a decline of theme-park mmos in the future.
Personally i fear that with the upcoming sucess (and it will be a sucess if they look at their money after release)
of TOR the time of Singleplayer-MMOS (what a cruel word) is just starting.
I expect that most major studios who are interested in money and not so much in being innovative (thats most of them)
will copy storytelling of TOR for the next 2-3 years.
If there wont be a really succesful new sandbox or sandbox/thememix game there is no chance we can see a
change in the mmog-games.
So dont expect those games to get better in future.
They will turn worse first.
SWTOR won't be a success if they lose most of their customers soon after release. Every similar MMO to it in the past few years has been the same, huge preorder numbers, but fails to retain subscribers beyond the free month. SWTOR will be no different, it brings nothing new to the genre and does nothing better. Quest npc speech isn't going to suddenly make everyone love it.
Can you spout more BS? Although you have my "Person is talking out their arse" meter maxed, it would be interesting to see what an overload of horsechit would do to it.
IQ/education level has nothing to do with what type of gaming a person enjoys. I suppose the Doctor that was 6 boxing in EQ was a bloody idjut cause he wasnt doing the same thing in SWG? Nah I would say he found the "entertainment" factor lacking....like so many of us did. The PRECioUs was a POS. Buggy, and nothing to do save play a burnt n crispy Uncle Owen.
Folks interested in building things, and various micro manage games, can do so thru facebook and other applications these days. That was where Koster run off to, which basically says it all. Those looking for action/progression are the ones more apt to subscribe to an MMO, and sandbox fails to deliver for folks in this category.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Its over? Someone needs to inform the devs.
Yep sure thing there Skippy. TOR is going to sell more boxes in the first yr than almost all sandboxes ever have....combined that is.
The best sub sumbers have always come from properly built themeparks. Since EQ launched, sandbox sub numbers havent come close. YOu wanna look at games like ST:O, MxO, or WAR? Sure they were crap. I look at games like EQ(450k at max), EQ2(300 ish K at max), LoTRO(300 ish K at max), FF11(unsure but 400 to 500K worldwide max), and lets not forget that 10 ton elephant WOW at 11M.
Sandboxes have EVE, and that is fueled by folks being able to trade in game currancy for game time. EVE got up to about 350k, but has taken a little hit due to PR. One pathetic showing when compared to 4 games that have done as well or better, and that isnt mentioning WOW.
A company would have to be out of their mind to fund 50 or 100M to building a sandbox. The number of persons clamoring for it just doesnt warrant the investment. Instead they can take their money, put out a quality themepark, and at minimum make their money back.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
With the amount of people dishing out cash for these WoW like clones,I believe the method isnt going anywhere..
would be cool if it were a thing of the past,but its not and it wont be.
I am looking forward to seeing a great sandbox MMO. UI and Runescape are not completely sandbox (No MMORPG really is) but then again I hope I see a great new MMORPG that has embraced the sandbox concepts.
TOP MMORPG GAMES
Someone can't handle the truth being spoken about their game
SWTOR is on the same failbot as Aion, FFXIV, Warhammer etc. Huge preorder numbers but loses most players within a month of release. History is repeating itself over and over and it won't be any different with SWTOR. There is no evidence that SWTOR is going to break this mould, infact there is a great deal of evidence to the oppsite.
I'm not surpised that sandboxes don't get large preorder numbers, the only companies making them are small indy companies on a low budget. It's no wonder they never sell many copies compared to the big budget big name company themepark games. The big budget themepark mmos that sell a lot of preorders invest more money into advertising than these small indy companies can afford to put into their entire game development.
Never has a big name company even tried to create a big budget sandbox mmo. Not since EQ came along with its shiny 3D graphics that made UO 2d graphics look crap.
Blizzard might just be doing this with Titan though, if anyone has the smarts and enough money to break the mould, it's them.
Aion made over 200 million dollars in revenues last year, still has 75-100 servers worldwide and easily over a million subs worldwide, I hardly would call that a fail. The world is bigger than the US, you know.
If history is repeating itself, then we can see another WoW situation happen, where a renowned top game company dives into the MMO market, picks up the best features of the preceding MMO's and implements them into its own MMO with tweaks and polishing... oh, wait, that was probably not the history you were referring to, weren't you? But, it still IS part of history as well, just as LotrO being able to hold on to the larger part of their player base for more than a year until they made some other errors, or an Aion doing great in the east with lots of players and revenues.
Face it, themepark MMO genre won't go away, neither will game designers suddenly turn to a sandbox concept. You can wait 1 year, 2 years, heck, even 5 or more years, but you'll have to face the fact that the MMO genre will always have a hell of a lot of MMORPG's that you just won't like. Hoping for something else is just fooling yourself. Just enjoy the few MMO's that do fall within your taste range is the best thing you can do.
Like said, LotrO did pretty good for a long time, Aion made over 200 million dollars in revenues and is still played by over a million people on 75-100 servers (to illustrate: EU+US player population of 900k+ was facilitated by about 30-35 servers).
If SWTOR succeeds or even does well, there goes any theory that themepark MMO's bores all MMO gamers instead of just a disgruntled, jaded minority, a theory that was already on shaky grounds considering how many MMO gamers are playing themepark styled MMO's compared to non-themepark MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm amazed by the precognitive powers some of you are displaying. Where on earth did you get that crystal ball? I want one too.
Saying that themepark MMOs will imminently die off or, on the contrary, will stick around forever is pure speculation and both arguments are worthless. Nobody knows what the future is made of, nobody could have predicted WoW's huge success and nobody can predict the demise of the themepark sub genre.
I'm also amazed by the resilience of Maverick's denial about TOR being a blatant WoW clone (way more than WoW was an EQ clone, at any rate).
WoW "stole" ideas from several pre existing games. TOR from a single one. There's quite a big difference there.
What an amazing day!
LOL! Gotta love it when people claim that regressing to outdated gameplay is the future. Those that point out that there are "wow-clones" that failed can't seem to remember that there were a slew of "Diablo clones" that ALSO failed. It succeeded by being the first to do a number of things, including Battlenet.
It seems as though the OP is saying that WoW-esque MMO's are the reason iso's aren't being made like they used to be. If so, I disagree. Once upon a time, technology favored iso games to third person. 3D video cards were rare during UO's development, and certainly weren't commonplace when they released, and without 3d acceleration, you could create alot more detail and texturing in an iso map than you could a 1st-3rd person perspective. Nowadays, technology is such that that advantage is gone; you can have as much detail and more with a 1st-3rd person format, where your character can actually have more than 150 pixels worth of detail.
That's not to say that a modern iso game can't be an interesting change of pace. If D3 gets some good reviews and features indicate something I'd be into, I'll probably buy it. Heck, I'll buy a top-down shooter if I can demo it and find it to my liking. But the notion that people will walk away from 1st and 3rd person MMO's to some resurgence of the ISO MMO is kinda silly. It didn't happen when UO got its facelift, and it won't happen, now.
I liked Diablo, largely because it was the first time I played a real-time game that felt like DnD. The dungeon crawling... the loot... the traps... it was all there from a fairly shallow perspective, but still went much further than anything else in a real-time format. But now, there are a slew of better options.
And I'd bet that's what's holding D3 up. Despite modern advances, the challenge is making it a great game, IN SPITE of the iso format. In the end, I think they'll succeed to some extent, but I don't think it will be the revolution that Diablo was. It's a regressive move to make it in the first place; time will tell if it turns out to be a great sequel, or... Smokey and the Bandit 3.
UO's so called facelift was major fail, the new client looks worse than the old one. Now if they had made it look like Lineage: Eternal.... that would have been something. But it looked nothing like that, it was major fail.
Yep, it seems that some people can't just inject more common sense and objectivity in their arguments and just keep going on their personal soapboxes, that's why I try to do it instead.
But enough about that. About your argument, you call SWTOR a 'blatant WoW clone', one look at your user name leads me to suspect that you hate/despise/dislike themepark MMORPG's, therefore you'll always fail to acknowledge any value or merit to them. So yes, I agree, in your eyes TOR is a blatant WoW clone, emphasis on the negative, derogatory insinuation that expresses scorn towards themepark MMO's.
For people that hate/despise themepark MMO's it's obvious that they don't want to acknowledge any positive aspect towards any MMORPG in that genre, that's logical.
Me, I look at it more objectively and just call it what it is, a themepark MMORPG with all the typical themepark MMO features with its own twist and on the level of other themepark MMO's like a WoW, LotrO, Aion etc.
I can fully understand though how themepark haters and jaded, burnt out MMO gamers will never be able to say anything positive about themepark styled MMO's. It's simply not in most people's nature, to be positive or look openminded or objectively towards the thing(s) they despise or passionately dislike.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Just goes to show how wrong you are. I've not said there's anything specifcially wrong with themepark mmos, only that style of mmo being released over and over in a different setting is getting old now. It has been getting old for ages. Aion has large subs? Must be mostly from korea then, it is a korean game afterall.
How much was spent on developing SWTOR? $300 million or something? They would need to sell several million copies to get their money back. At a guess i'd say they'll be lucky to hit 2 million preorders and they'll lose most of those players after the free month. Also they'll lose a lot of players during early access because people can still cancel their order during early access.
The best sub sumbers have always come from properly built themeparks. Since EQ launched, sandbox sub numbers havent come close. YOu wanna look at games like ST:O, MxO, or WAR? Sure they were crap. I look at games like EQ(450k at max), EQ2(300 ish K at max), LoTRO(300 ish K at max), FF11(unsure but 400 to 500K worldwide max), and lets not forget that 10 ton elephant WOW at 11M.
Sandboxes have EVE, and that is fueled by folks being able to trade in game currancy for game time. EVE got up to about 350k, but has taken a little hit due to PR. One pathetic showing when compared to 4 games that have done as well or better, and that isnt mentioning WOW.
A company would have to be out of their mind to fund 50 or 100M to building a sandbox. The number of persons clamoring for it just doesnt warrant the investment. Instead they can take their money, put out a quality themepark, and at minimum make their money back.
Someone can't handle the truth being spoken about their game
SWTOR is on the same failbot as Aion, FFXIV, Warhammer etc. Huge preorder numbers but loses most players within a month of release. History is repeating itself over and over and it won't be any different with SWTOR. There is no evidence that SWTOR is going to break this mould, infact there is a great deal of evidence to the oppsite.
I'm not surpised that sandboxes don't get large preorder numbers, the only companies making them are small indy companies on a low budget. It's no wonder they never sell many copies compared to the big budget big name company themepark games. The big budget themepark mmos that sell a lot of preorders invest more money into advertising than these small indy companies can afford to put into their entire game development.
Never has a big name company even tried to create a big budget sandbox mmo. Not since EQ came along with its shiny 3D graphics that made UO 2d graphics look crap.
Blizzard might just be doing this with Titan though, if anyone has the smarts and enough money to break the mould, it's them.
The failure of most games has nothing to do with the type of game it is and everything to do with the production values of the game. Gamers have much higher standards for the mmorpg when it comes to production values compared to ten years ago. Rift has been plenty successful, more so than any other game since WoW. They were successful because of the production values of the game.
SW:ToR probably has production values at least as high as Rift, along with a well known IP, and plenty of brand loyalty. I don't doubt that they could mess it up, but I'd doubt it. The box sales alone will trump anything since WoW. If you think that players don't want another 'quest on rails theme park', then you have seriously misinterpreted what players want.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The era of themeparks is far from over, if anything I think we will see a slide to even more "accessible" (take that to mean what you will) and Facebook orientated mmos in the future. Along with indie sandboxes with budgets of $5 along the way here and there ofc.
The morass of the consumerbase is different now. Whilst there may be a few thousand (or less) clamouring for the next UO (I wish), there are millions who don't give a shit about that and just want to be able to quickly queue up for their shinies, which is fair enough if that's what they find fun.
Tbh I can actually see a move somewhat to fps style mmos on the market place (PS2, the new Tribes, Firefall et al), given the size and scope of the fps orientated playerbase that particular trend has a chance of taking off now that the technology has/is catching up.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
And so it goes back to that (untrue) chestnut. Of which there was only one source, a disgruntled ex-employee whose rantings you could ONLY believe if you were looking for reasons that the game will fail while ignoring everything else.
Aion has its servers not only in Korea, but in other parts of Asia as well, besides of course the US and EU servers.
The 300 million dollar was a rumor by a disgruntled ex-employee or hate mongerer, this rumor from an anonymous blogger has been debunked in various ways already, only persistent haters and critics who want to see MMO's that they dislike fail still believe that. The more realistic estimations that have been made hover around 80-100 million dollars.
As for the rest, my grandma in her resting house can make estimations and predictions that are equally valid, heck, anyone can play fortune teller and come up with random gibberish figures. They're meaningless and quite frankly hilarious in their meaninglessness. It's just wishful thinking, unless you're a psychic but then I have to wonder what the hell you're doing here instead of playing the stock market.
Like I said, that's the kind of wishful thinking that people hold on to who dislike a game so much that they hope from the bottom of the heart that it'll fail. Not really a good foundation to make sound, at least somewhat objective estimations.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I say it cost as much as a nuclear submarine.
Oh, sorry, I have to blog it to make it official, right?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
mav people still posting that 300 million dollar lie obiously cant be reasoned with. we all know now that the 300 million budget was for dragon age 2, tor and mass effect 3 combined. That people dont pay attention enough to actually know this makes them bad trolls.
Tor at most cost 150 million to make. With the price of the ce they will make that back fast.
oh and i guess i cant say tot doesnt have alot of phased areas cause if violates nda but players can say tor is phased everywhere get by with it so oh well.
The facxt bioware has stated on multiple occasions that phasing in tor is limited to class story and is limited to a building not an entire area and my confiming this basicly is a violation of nda and can get me baneed so i cant actually defend tor with facts but players can spout lie after lie after lie and its ok.
Or somebody has to quote your post in their blog. That will make it true, also.