Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why are MMO skills so boring?
demarc01
Member UncommonPosts: 429
What I mean from the thread title is the actual skills you gain as you level up are so static and boring its very dull.
At level 2 you get slash, at level 4 you get slam, at level 6 you get bash ... all so dull and boring. You know that every other player of your class also gets theses skills with the same animations etc.
I remember playing Vanguard and the bard class to be specific. You build your own *songs* adding different components to it. The costs we're dependant on how you built the songs as were the effects.
Thinking about this I wondered why no MMO had expanded on this system across classes? Why do we just learn *slash* instead of learning components to skills which we can combine to produce the effects we desire?
A system where we learned components and build our own attacks would prove far more interesting to me. The amount of components we could add to skills would of course be dependant on level, so at level 1 we may start with 2 or 3 components and the ability to have 2-block skills. By level 20 we could have developed 10 components and able to use up to 5-block skills.
For example. Our warrior starts with a damage component, a taunt component and an armor reducing component. He decides he wants a couple of DPS attacks and combines a Damage with an Armor reducing for attack one and 2 damage components together for a second attack. (The amount of *styles* you can memorize would be based on level)
Components could be drawn from a pretty extensive list. Think about the attacks you see in current MMO's and break each attack down to components. Snares, Armor redux, Damage, Stuns, Slows, Self buffs (armor increases, parry increases etc) Bleeds, Resource redux (less rage/mana per use) Attack animations etc.
The last interests me the most, Attack animations. Why does evey warriors *slash* look the same? Why cant we have a list of animations and select the animation we want for a particular attack combo of our choice? In PvP you can tell (assuming you pay attention) exactly what ability your oponent is using. Imagine a PvP match where the first warriors spinning attack was a high dmg move, but the next warriors attack was a self armor buff .... why do all warriors fight using exactly the same style? Look around the world and there are hundrads of fighing styles, in MMO's every race / faction / etc uses the exact same style with no variation? Why?
This component building method of styles could be extended to spell casting too, range, damage type, damage, spell animation, debuff effects, buffs ... and Archery in much the same way. Even healing spells could be built in the same way.
Obviously there are logistics etc to a system like this and i've just outlined a basic idea. I just remember fondly the bard system of building your own songs and wonder why this system has been overlooked since then.
Comments
Saga of Ryzom has a skill system like you describe. You build and customize all skills.
Interesting, thankyou.
Never bothered with it since its a F2P I believe, but I may go mess with it until SWtoR ships
I couldn't agree more! To me, it is a joke. A mean class and combat is at least 50% of a game, that is what you do. It is nearly all the gameplay. I can't beleive class design in TOR for exemple is that conservative. Wow classes were pretty boring in vanilla, but that was 2005. They at least added some cool skills/talents along the way. Look at diablo 3. It is fun because it's ONLY fun skills, not math heavy.
I made a post a month ago about this. To me the problem behind this is Math. Players(and then games devs.) are obsesed with math. I mean OBSESSED. Math is the only factor that drive class design., not fun, not coolness, math. They think about rotation, overall DPS, CC, HEAL+DPS. And in the end, they forgot fun and go for boring math heavy skills.
But this is both because of players and devs.
I am very happy to see that others are concerned by this.
Lets hope GW2 didn't forget about fun.
Vanguard stems from the old mmorpg tradition of creativity over profitability. Probably why it's barely played (sadly). Though they did bury their 2 faction server so that explains a lot as well. But anyway - point is, the old games were filled with adults who expected more. Now, a lot of adults stay away from mmorpgs - it belongs to a heavy stoner crowd along with a very young audience mixed in for good measure. The genre is just too silly and intellectually dull.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vwlTK7p5Dfg#t=1981s
I'm sorry, what? I can't hear you over the sound of me crapping myself. You just need to find less boring mmos.
Sadly thats true.
Since I started playing MMO's (M59 etc) I've just seen a rehash and general downward spiral in games. Sure they get prettier, thats about it though. The systems are basically the same systems that were in play back in EQ. Level up, get skills, grind gear.
Vanguard was a throw back to EQ1 and I did play it, It was fun. Trouble was at the time the system req's were very high and the game suffered very poor stability and a bug list that could fill pages. They did offer great substance in that game though. Lots of races / classes and a huge open land mass.
I understand themeparks are linear and thats fine, they are easier to make for developers, ok no biggy. But the reliance on old *tried and tested* game systems is lacking. There really has'ent been an evolution in game systems for some time. I remember a game with a rotating skillbar thingy that was interesting, it failed though
(Chronicles of Spellborn - I had to go look it up lol) AoC had a novel skill system for melee, but spell casting was still same old same old.
Guess I'd just like to see more effort and inovation in the basic systems over pretty visuals /shrug
It's really saddening in my opinion - as I started playing MMOs when I was around 11-12 yrs old, I'm 20 now. My first MMO was Starwars Galaxies (beta/Pre-CU uptill CU's deathbed) and Everquest 1. It's sad that these types of games are being dumbed down to such a degree that it's insulting. Heck, I don't even play anything MMO-wise, haven't for the last 8 months. Been silently waiting for TERA & Guild wars 2. Small hope that they'll be good and fun.
Kinda of a "Hope for the best" situation in my eyes.
People want to solo.
That's it.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
The average WoW generation MMO gamer is too ... overwhelmed by complexity and choice.
Most of them don't want to have to plan or think. They just want to log in, shut their brains off, and mash buttons to victory. The times they do need to make choices or think, they opt to read online guides that tell them the best choices and quickest path.
Sadly it's not just MMOs, the gaming industry in general just keeps dumbing things down to try to appeal to the masses.
This is quite true.
We really won't see that kind of a complex system because there will be balance issues in it. Also, with a skill system that is so diverse, it is very much possible to see just a few best builds. Once players are able to determine these best skill builds, most other people will use it. The choices, therefore, are neglected since many people just choose the same set of skills.
MMOs skills are "boring" due to target audience.
However, complex systems like your propose are unlikely to be implemented due to balance and content development issues.
Balance issues lead to optimal cookie cutter builds and thus complexity is an illusion. Complex and challenging encounters lead to cookie cutter builds to complete the encounters again complexity becomes an illusion though it can lead to some fun due to being forced to use skills that are very, very different between encounters.
There are a limited number of resources. They must be split between maintaining/balancing the game mechanics and content development. Both of these require quite a great deal of work and increasing the complexity of one increases the difficulty of the other.
Just remember, there is no DM to tweak things on the fly just because the group decided to to something completely unexpected within the complex system.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Aye I can see where skill builds would be used and even with this system someone somewhere would *do the math* and tell you what 6 skills to put in your rotation and how to build each skill to get the max DPS.
This kinda of system would allow people to have some flexability tho, if say your DPS buddy was really good you could build an additional threat skill as the tank for use when hes around, and a lower threat more dmg / ap / whatever skill for when hes not.
In an ideal world all DPS / Healers of X spec in X gear put out the same healing / DPS .. we all know thats not the case though.
Hell I'd be happy if they just allowed us to assign animations to the current skills we have. Feeling generic is not fun. The ability to suprise people in PvP when the animation does not match the skill they were expecting would be awesome, hell I'd even settle for it being a PvP only perk gained at X rank ...
One can dream. I would really like a system thats more customizable though. Grouping with X tank who's skilled at threat / AP then grouping with another who's skilled at threat / stun would be different experiances. (Very vague and general examples) Dev's can either use many archtypes, or let players have more ability to customize ... i would think in the long run the latter would be easier on the dev's and more interiging for the players.
Hell I guess I just want more sandboxey character creation ! (Fondly do I remember AC - Until OG /sigh)
It is a really good question actually.
Most MMO skills are combat skills and more or less identical. That in itself is somewhat strange since even (A)D&D have plenty of non combat skills that actually are interesting and adds to the game.
MMOs have kinda revolved back to Chainmail (the original miniature combat game Gygax made) but with loads of rather similar attacks.
There are so many fun non combat skills in regular P&P RPGs that could be included in MMOs to add to the game. Someone really should start from the start with turning pathfinder or Runequests mechanics into a MMO again.
As for attack skills and spells we really don't need 30 similar skills that you press in a certain order. Bard songs and spells could be mixed as OP suggest to create your own fitting spell (I want "Dragon slave" from The Slayers myself;) while melee and ranged combat needs a total revamp.
As I want melee I want 3 basic attacks: Slash, pierce and blunt, and a defend skill (parry or dodge depending on your class). From them as you levl up or gain more skill depending on your system you lock up manuevers based on real ones.
I want a kind of rock - scissor - papper system where certain attack types and special attacks are better than others against eachother, and it assumes you use your defensive one if you click nothing, like when you lag.
You lock a certain number of special or basic attacks on each weapon, say that you can put 12 attacks in each, and you have 2 weapon sets you can change between in combat. So when you pull out your sword your fastkey bar will show your selected attacks, and if you fight someone who has a better build againbst you it is time to pull out the axe.
It is just one suggestion how to make combat more interesting, there are many other possibilities.
I think part of the boring skills comes out of the theme park mmo concept. Developers are wanting the player to have a very specific experience within thieir game, and by having a very restricted skill experience they are thus forcing the player to see the game in a small way through the perspective that they wanted. While this ends up eliminating the creativity that many would like, this also creats the specific experience they are wanting. With so many mmo's being from a similar setting, it ends with the issue of you can only do for example a sword slash so many ways.