That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that the typical MMO player plays MMO's for years because of goals to meet which allow you to progress your character.
That's funny. It's not really their character, but their character's gear that's "progressing". TYPICAL MMO players play TYPICAL MMOs that don't have a personalized storyline that affects anything but the status color code of their pauldrons of epic-waste-of-time. It takes months just to get a drop you want in a competitive PVE game like WoW where raids only open up once a week. Most of them are playing because it's virtual crack, not because they think there isn't a better alternative. Believe me, I know. I did it for way too long.
The typical MMO player is just really bored. You act as though playing for years is a choice and not a carefully planned scam by the devs to get people to keep coming back instead of getting everything they want at their own pace.
And I'll ask you something... when you've spent months or years in an expansion getting the very best stuff, stuff that was not at all easily gotten, and then a paid expansion comes out and makes ALL of it useless in one fell swoop, AND new players can just jump into a higher gear slot than you right away, do you find that enjoyable? Because I know a lot of people who don't. These people are sick of the TYPICAL MMO.
"Whew.. took down that Lich King guy. Only took 6 months. What? Cata greens are superior on day 1? Damn it, I thought I would be OP forever."
I'm not sure how GW2's end game will work in the finished product, but it's got to be better than selling your soul and tearing your hair out for loot that even the designers are already replacing by the time you put it on.
If there truly is no prolonged progression of some sort once at max level, that would be really unfortunate. This would essentially mean it's time to retire your character and reroll. After having invested so much time and effort into building my character to that level, I'd like the game to give me an opportunity and a reason to use that fully built character (from a pve as well as a pvp perspective.) ...
Mhh, 80 levels at approx 1.5~2 hours per level, dungeons, personal story and 1500 Dynamic Events should be able to give you something to do until the first expansion is released.
not really, lets assume the levelling is great fun and you spend 25 hours a week playing the game, at the speed you give you will hit max level in about 7 weeks, and then say another 8 weeks at max level content. So as people have said, at this point it is either start again or end game cycle. It will be a year and a half probably for next expansion. Dont forget, you are paying a sub at this point.
No it isn't... You can go see all branches equating to 32 dungeons. You can continue to pump hours into WvWvW like people continue to do with DAoC. You can go back and experience events you never saw, or combinations of them you never saw, or do your favorite ones when they are up. You can continue to get different gear. You can go have fun with the minigames of the different cities. You can finish your personal story if you haven't. And of course there is competitive PvP. How does that sound like start over or end game cycle?
And there's also my personal favourite; BUILD MAKING!!! I spent hours doing that in GW1, I'm probably going to do the same here.
I love how the part in red is ignored by the masses that only want to see, hear, and believe what they want to believe. GW2 will only have cosmetic and title rewards, bah!
No one here knows how many traits there are going to be in GW2 for each profession, or how long it will take to get each one. There could be 30 or there could be 80 traits per profession, no one knows! It could take 5 minutes per trait or it could take 15 to 30 to get some of the more difficult ones to achieve, again no one knows! Then there is the skill hunting, do I really need to remind you of this? From less than a month ago:
“The healing, utility, and elite skills (seen below) are now unlocked with skill points. Each skill may cost a variable number of skill points to unlock, but once the player is able to slot a particular type of skill, they may unlock the skills in any order that they choose. For example, if I unlocked my elite skill slot as a norn warrior, I may choose to spend my skill points to unlock Norn Bear Form (a norn racial elite skill) or Rampage (a warrior elite skill).
Skill points can be acquired by undertaking what we call a skill challenge. There are 200 skill challenges in the game, and they range from defeating tough opponents, to answering riddles, to drinking a particularly potent drink.
Some of our players may recognize “skill challenges” as being similar to a system we spoke about a while back called “profession challenges.” These two systems are one and the same. In the past, profession challenges were specific to a particular profession and were used to acquire traits. In playing these challenges, we found that they tended to split up people who were trying to play together. One player would want to go to one spot on the map to find their profession challenge, while their friend would want to go somewhere else to find a different profession challenge. Because this had an adverse affect on players being able to play together, we decided that it was better suited to skill acquisition than something as profession specific as traits.
This, of course, meant that we needed a new way to acquire traits, and since we were in the middle of revamping our trait system, it felt like a good time to make the change. We’ll talk about our new trait system in an upcoming blog post, so until then, I hope you’ve enjoyed hearing about the G-Star demo and all of the exciting new things going into the game.”
There are 200 skill challenges in game and no one here knows how long it will take to get all 200! You people do realize that these challenges could take a lot of time and not be considered a grind. For example each dungeon has an armor and weapon set so in order to get the whole thing you have to run the same dungeon group 6 or 7 times I believe. ANet does not consider this grinding because it is not forced on the players, no one in the game needs to do this in order to compete and play with other players. The same could be said of the skills your character does not need every skill in order to compete in world vs. world or to play with other players, it would be your choice to get them all.
Until we get too see a majority of these skill challenges and trait objectives in action no one here knows how long it will take to acquire them all it could be in the days, hours, or be in the minutes range. But to ignore this all together as part of end game until we learn more is just foolish!
And there's also my personal favourite; BUILD MAKING!!! I spent hours doing that in GW1, I'm probably going to do the same here.
I love how the part in red is ignored by the masses that only want to see, hear, and believe what they want to believe. GW2 will only have cosmetic and title rewards, bah!
No one here knows how many traits there are going to be in GW2 for each profession, or how long it will take to get each one. There could be 30 or there could be 80 traits per profession, no one knows! It could take 5 minutes per trait or it could take 15 to 30 to get some of the more difficult ones to achieve, again no one knows! Then there is the skill hunting, do I really need to remind you of this? From less than a month ago:
There are 200 skill challenges in game and no one here knows how long it will take to get all 200! You people do realize that these challenges could take a lot of time and not be considered a grind. For example each dungeon has an armor and weapon set so in order to get the whole thing you have to run the same dungeon group 6 or 7 times I believe. ANet does not consider this grinding because it is not forced on the players, no one in the game needs to do this in order to compete and play with other players. The same could be said of the skills your character does not need ever skill in order to compete in world vs. world or to play with other players, it would be your choice to get them all.
Until we get too see a majority of these skill challenges and trait objectives in action no one here knows how long it will take to acquire them all it could be in the days, hours, or be in the minutes range. But to ignore this all together as part of in game until we learn more is just foolish!
I wouldn't assume anyone is ignoring anything. It would seem you want to "believe what you want to believe" about those who disagree with your viewpoint, regardless of how rational, reasoned or justified those disagreements may be. There are certainly cases where your assertion is true, where some peoples' opinions are immovably biased, and they then pick and choose which facts to use to best support their arguments while conveniently ignoring the tohers; but I think *most* of the discussion in this thread has been reasonable on both sides.
In this case, there are 2 good reasons why people may not have found it necessary to respond to those 2 particular points. For one, the acquisition of skills/spells/abilities and traits/masteries/talents/perks is a progression that almost exclusively takes place during the leveling process in pretty much every single game. And this whole conversation has been about what one will do once max level is reached. Certainly players won't wait until level 80 to finally unlock most of their skills. I do hope that there will be room to continue this progression to some extent though, which leads to reason #2, like you said, we just don't know yet. All the information isn't there. Zeroxin's post was valid, as is yours, since this thread is about speculation afterall. But once it was said, it was out there. There's really not much more to be said on either end until we learn more.
I too eagerly await their complete trait blog post.
Certainly players won't wait until level 80 to finally unlock most of their skills.
... why not?
That depends upon how the game is designed, whether or not the skills/traits are something you're going to mostly get during the leveling process, or something that extends beyond it.
In the original Guild Wars, collecting skills extended far beyond max level, and it would in fact be impossible to get them all (Or even half of them, for that matter) before hitting level cap.
It really just depends upon how they choose to space everything out.
Certainly players won't wait until level 80 to finally unlock most of their skills.
... why not?
That depends upon how the game is designed, whether or not the skills/traits are something you're going to mostly get during the leveling process, or something that extends beyond it.
In the original Guild Wars, collecting skills extended far beyond max level, and it would in fact be impossible to get them all (Or even half of them, for that matter) before hitting level cap.
It really just depends upon how they choose to space everything out.
Thanks Meowhead! To completely ignore how GW1 skill system was designed when both games are designed by ANet is foolish. Especially when ANet has said more than once that the trait system is designed to make the GW1 fans of the Elite skill hunt (build system) happy, I could see the trait system extending well past max level. As for the skill challenges we know you get your first elite skill around 30, unless they have changed that, having around 200 skills packed into the leveling process from 30 to 80 would make it feel crammed in. That would be 4 per level on top of doing DEs, personal story and PVP for XP, there is no way you are not going to out- level content.
Now if they added some of that to end game then you might only have 1 or 2 per level to get done. Of course this is all just theory since we do not know enough about the trait or skill challenge system. Like I said earlier to just say that endgame is nothing but cosmetic and titles is beyond ignorant since we do not know about the other parts of the game.
Take Diablo 2, any good FPS, good RTS, or just any good multiplayer game. Tons of people play those for a year or more even without content updates. Why? Because the games are fun and the gameplay is fun. That's the sort of people GW2 is aimed at, as well as MMO players who AREN'T happy with how things are right now.
Rofl... Bro, you got this all wrong. These games are not addicting because their gameplay is fun. Diablo, for instance, is only addicting because of the same reason WoW is addicting. There is a never-ending character progression and you never know when you might get that next item. The player is constantly lured into playing the game thinking that he might get that fabled drop. Starcraft and Counter Strike on the other hand don't have progression so they need to rely on other methods to remain addicting, and that element is human competition. People enjoy beating others, feeling superior, feeling in control. That sense of empowerment is constantly sought after and it is what leads these types of games to become addicting. Why are games like Brickbreaker so addicting? Because the player is constantly trying to beat his/her high score.
If these games were addicting because their gameplay was fun, then you would see players that would be addicted to playing FPS or RTS matches against bots. You would see players mindlessly killing monsters in Diablo. As this is clearly not the case, Guild Wars 2 will utilize human competition, in the form of PvP, and progression, in the forms of achievements, skins, and titles to remain addicting. However, while PvP seems fine, many do not like the idea of having solely the superficial forms of progression mentioned above to keep them playing. There's also socializing and exploration, but that is something present in most MMORPG's.
Take Diablo 2, any good FPS, good RTS, or just any good multiplayer game. Tons of people play those for a year or more even without content updates. Why? Because the games are fun and the gameplay is fun. That's the sort of people GW2 is aimed at, as well as MMO players who AREN'T happy with how things are right now.
Rofl... Bro, you got this all wrong. These games are not addicting because their gameplay is fun. Diablo, for instance, is only addicting because of the same reason WoW is addicting. There is a never-ending character progression and you never know when you might get that next item. The player is constantly lured into playing the game thinking that he might get that fabled drop. Starcraft and Counter Strike on the other hand don't have progression so they need to rely on other methods to remain addicting, and that element is human competition. People enjoy beating others, feeling superior, feeling in control. That sense of empowerment is constantly sought after and it is what leads these types of games to become addicting. Why are games like Brickbreaker so addicting? Because the player is constantly trying to beat his/her high score.
If these games were addicting because their gameplay was fun, then you would see players that would be addicted to playing FPS or RTS matches against bots. You would see players mindlessly killing monsters in Diablo. As this is clearly not the case, Guild Wars 2 will utilize human competition, in the form of PvP, and progression, in the forms of achievements, skins, and titles to remain addicting. However, while PvP seems fine, many do not like the idea of having solely the superficial forms of progression mentioned above to keep them playing. There's also socializing and exploration, but that is something present in most MMORPG's.
Diablo is pretty fun through the difficulty levels just because it gets harder and more challenging. The combat is action-based and fun. Granted it doesn't have a lot of content in a number of ways, but that gameplay is good and compelling. I will admit there are better examples, however. Skyrim would probably be a better fit for GW2 as far as single-player games go. There's a large world to explore in both (DE make even old areas different in GW2). Loot doesn't matter as much (even more true in Skyrim than in GW2, ES games have a history of overall rather poor loot that is largely just sold for money). I could go with other games that people play a lot and enjoy for their Co-Op. Dungeon Defenders, Magicka, Mario Brothers Wii, etc, etc. There are long lists of games people enjoy for co-op and can play a lot and for a long time, especially if there's a lot of content. Don't get hung up on aspects regarding one example that wasn't particularly good. What helps such games out is if there is synergy between players, and we certainly have that in GW2 with skill combos and the like.
And I see we agree the PvP doesn't need rewards of any real significance. Good. That said, I'd note many people play FPS with friends against enemy teams made of bots (bots can be reasonably competent, and can also come in greater numbers). People do this for the challenge and comraderie.
I find it hilarious that you think people don't keep playing ANY game because the gameplay is good, btw, then you go on to say they enjoy PvP gameplay so they keep playing THOSE games. Well, the same is true for Co-op games and single-player games. People can keep playing them for hundreds of hours because the gameplay is good. It helps a lot if more content is added. Sure people might take breaks now and then to play other games, but that's normal and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they won't come back and try out an expansion or the like later. There's no need for skinnerbox design unless you are trying to make people pay a monthly sub, and going for that actually harms the gameplay.
Diablo is pretty fun through the difficulty levels just because it gets harder and more challenging. The combat is action-based and fun. Granted it doesn't have a lot of content in a number of ways, but that gameplay is good and compelling.
It's good and compelling, sure, but after a while, you really don't think much about the gameplay. It's the goals and objectives that stimulate you to go forward. It's that sense of progression, that sense of gradual character growth that will keep you coming back again and again. Once that is over, the game loses much of its addictive traits.
I will admit there are better examples, however. Skyrim would probably be a better fit for GW2 as far as single-player games go. There's a large world to explore in both (DE make even old areas different in GW2). Loot doesn't matter as much (even more true in Skyrim than in GW2, ES games have a history of overall rather poor loot that is largely just sold for money).
I will agree that exploration may be a big one in Guild Wars 2 with different Dynamic Events popping up in the same area.
I could go with other games that people play a lot and enjoy for their Co-Op. Dungeon Defenders, Magicka, Mario Brothers Wii, etc, etc. There are long lists of games people enjoy for co-op and can play a lot and for a long time, especially if there's a lot of content. Don't get hung up on aspects regarding one example that wasn't particularly good. What helps such games out is if there is synergy between players, and we certainly have that in GW2 with skill combos and the like.
Again, people are only addicted to these Co-Op missions for the sense of achievement, to beat the game, get past a certain level, or just get a better score in a certain level.
And I see we agree the PvP doesn't need rewards of any real significance. Good. That said, I'd note many people play FPS with friends against enemy teams made of bots (bots can be reasonably competent, and can also come in greater numbers). People do this for the challenge and comraderie.
That's a rare specimen of people you know there. Being addicted by playing against bots? I have never seen that, even when it's a group of friends.
I find it hilarious that you think people don't keep playing ANY game because the gameplay is good, btw, then you go on to say they enjoy PvP gameplay so they keep playing THOSE games. Well, the same is true for Co-op games and single-player games. People can keep playing them for hundreds of hours because the gameplay is good. It helps a lot if more content is added. Sure people might take breaks now and then to play other games, but that's normal and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they won't come back and try out an expansion or the like later. There's no need for skinnerbox design unless you are trying to make people pay a monthly sub, and going for that actually harms the gameplay.
As I have said before, people don't keep playing PvP games because swinging a sword or hurling a fireball is cool. They keep playing because they want to beat other people, they want to feel almighty, they want to be a badass. People don't keep playing Co-op just for the hell of it, they do so to get past a certain level, to get an achievement, or to get a high score. Again, Guild Wars 2 just like Guild Wars 1 does indeed make use of skinner box mechanics in the forms of achievements, item skins, and titles (even though I find these rather boring and superfluous).
What I wonder, Stealth, is why one can find you speaking for everyone in your posts? Is that your intention? Because you do it a lot. And it's your opinion, you cannot say that everyone does something for a certain reason, because I find myself disagreeing with nearly every one of your generalizations on how and why people do things, because I personally do them differently than you claim.
Don't try to win an argument by telling people why they play games, you may as well be telling them their taste is bad. If you need further examples of where you keep doing this, I'll be more than happy to point them out. It's kind of condescending, honestly.
Diablo is pretty fun through the difficulty levels just because it gets harder and more challenging. The combat is action-based and fun. Granted it doesn't have a lot of content in a number of ways, but that gameplay is good and compelling.
It's good and compelling, sure, but after a while, you really don't think much about the gameplay. It's the goals and objectives that stimulate you to go forward. It's that sense of progression, that sense of gradual character growth that will keep you coming back again and again. Once that is over, the game loses much of its addictive traits.
I will admit there are better examples, however. Skyrim would probably be a better fit for GW2 as far as single-player games go. There's a large world to explore in both (DE make even old areas different in GW2). Loot doesn't matter as much (even more true in Skyrim than in GW2, ES games have a history of overall rather poor loot that is largely just sold for money).
I will agree that exploration may be a big one in Guild Wars 2 with different Dynamic Events popping up in the same area.
I could go with other games that people play a lot and enjoy for their Co-Op. Dungeon Defenders, Magicka, Mario Brothers Wii, etc, etc. There are long lists of games people enjoy for co-op and can play a lot and for a long time, especially if there's a lot of content. Don't get hung up on aspects regarding one example that wasn't particularly good. What helps such games out is if there is synergy between players, and we certainly have that in GW2 with skill combos and the like.
Again, people are only addicted to these Co-Op missions for the sense of achievement, to beat the game, get past a certain level, or just get a better score in a certain level.
And I see we agree the PvP doesn't need rewards of any real significance. Good. That said, I'd note many people play FPS with friends against enemy teams made of bots (bots can be reasonably competent, and can also come in greater numbers). People do this for the challenge and comraderie.
That's a rare specimen of people you know there. Being addicted by playing against bots? I have never seen that, even when it's a group of friends.
I find it hilarious that you think people don't keep playing ANY game because the gameplay is good, btw, then you go on to say they enjoy PvP gameplay so they keep playing THOSE games. Well, the same is true for Co-op games and single-player games. People can keep playing them for hundreds of hours because the gameplay is good. It helps a lot if more content is added. Sure people might take breaks now and then to play other games, but that's normal and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they won't come back and try out an expansion or the like later. There's no need for skinnerbox design unless you are trying to make people pay a monthly sub, and going for that actually harms the gameplay.
As I have said before, people don't keep playing PvP games because swinging a sword or hurling a fireball is cool. They keep playing because they want to beat other people, they want to feel almighty, they want to be a badass. People don't keep playing Co-op just for the hell of it, they do so to get past a certain level, to get an achievement, or to get a high score. Again, Guild Wars 2 just like Guild Wars 1 does indeed make use of skinner box mechanics in the forms of achievements, item skins, and titles (even though I find these rather boring and superfluous).
Woah, woah woah, a rare specimen of people that enjoy playing bots? Umm... Tell that to the millions of kids playing zombies in CoD, or Spec OPS in MW3, I personally dislike the games but that is certainly not a rare specimen of people.
Also, I sure as hell don't play the games the way you do.. I don't fire up the Witcher 2 because I want to progress my character "lootwise".. I play it because I am immersed in the world, and enjoy the storyline. I don't get on Skyrim because of a carrot on a stick loot treadmill. Come on... Not everybody loves that style of play, and it damn sure has been over done in the MMO industry.
Also, Idk why Drach hasn't used WvWvW or Structured PvP on you... Do you know that ANet is striving to make a game that is going to be at the top in E-Sports? I played it in the Alienware Arena at PAX and it damn sure feels like they are achieiving this. People will continue to play the competitive pvp in GW2 for the same reason people play Counterstrike, Medal of Honor, Battlefield, LoL, DOTA.. To compete against others. I am sure there will be some people who hop right into competitive PvP and never touch the PvE content. Also, WvWvW is bringing back one of the best PvP structures of all time in DAoC. 3 servers with thousands of players to boast each, pitted against each other in a persistent zone that consists of 4 large maps. DAoC still sits around the 10k sub mark, and it is a decade old. Why? There still isn't character progression, but it still has one of the best PvP formats there ever was, and people still play it because of that.
None of your arguments hold any weight. There is still a carrot on a stick in GW2, but in this game it is optional, and it doesn't last as long as it does in other games. However, the game is aiming to be fun, and not a timesink that traps you in because you need the next tier of loot.
I was thinking the exact same thing. According to Stealth, people are only interested in vertical progression, yet I've logged more hours in Left 4 Dead 2, for example, than ANY other Steam game to date.
Do the characters evolve or advance? No.
Do they get new loot to use in future matches? No.
Is the game fun? Yes. That's why I can play one level over and over again. Because the gameplay is fluid, and I like killing bots with friends, not one iota of advancement involved. There is no end-all-be-all right or wrong way to play video games.
Edit: To anyone who feels like arguing my point, L4D2 has no vertical progression, even in Stealth's "to get to the next level" example, since every level is available to you from the start.
Woah, woah woah, a rare specimen of people that enjoy playing bots? Umm... Tell that to the millions of kids playing zombies in CoD, or Spec OPS in MW3, I personally dislike the games but that is certainly not a rare specimen of people.
You have clearly misinterpreted what I said. I said that people are addicted to zombie mode or Spec Ops because they are trying to get past a level, get a better high score, or get an achievement. These are psychologically proven facts that games use to keep people playing.
Also, I sure as hell don't play the games the way you do.. I don't fire up the Witcher 2 because I want to progress my character "lootwise".. I play it because I am immersed in the world, and enjoy the storyline. I don't get on Skyrim because of a carrot on a stick loot treadmill. Come on... Not everybody loves that style of play, and it damn sure has been over done in the MMO industry.
People continue playing these single player games because there are loads of new things to see, different things to do. That sense of mystery and discovery keeps the player addicted to the game. If a game is linear and does not offer a constant stream of new things to see and do, after the main storyline is over, so are the factors that keep the player coming back. Do you see people playing through Modern Warfare's campaign over and over again? Of course not. Once they have beaten the game in Veteran, they have no real incentive to go back.
Also, Idk why Drach hasn't used WvWvW or Structured PvP on you... Do you know that ANet is striving to make a game that is going to be at the top in E-Sports? I played it in the Alienware Arena at PAX and it damn sure feels like they are achieiving this. People will continue to play the competitive pvp in GW2 for the same reason people play Counterstrike, Medal of Honor, Battlefield, LoL, DOTA.. To compete against others. I am sure there will be some people who hop right into competitive PvP and never touch the PvE content. Also, WvWvW is bringing back one of the best PvP structures of all time in DAoC. 3 servers with thousands of players to boast each, pitted against each other in a persistent zone that consists of 4 large maps. DAoC still sits around the 10k sub mark, and it is a decade old. Why? There still isn't character progression, but it still has one of the best PvP formats there ever was, and people still play it because of that.
And I don't know why you haven't read my posts entirely. I have already stated that PvP is fine and dandy to keep players addicted to a game.
Diablo is pretty fun through the difficulty levels just because it gets harder and more challenging. The combat is action-based and fun. Granted it doesn't have a lot of content in a number of ways, but that gameplay is good and compelling.
It's good and compelling, sure, but after a while, you really don't think much about the gameplay. It's the goals and objectives that stimulate you to go forward. It's that sense of progression, that sense of gradual character growth that will keep you coming back again and again. Once that is over, the game loses much of its addictive traits.
I will admit there are better examples, however. Skyrim would probably be a better fit for GW2 as far as single-player games go. There's a large world to explore in both (DE make even old areas different in GW2). Loot doesn't matter as much (even more true in Skyrim than in GW2, ES games have a history of overall rather poor loot that is largely just sold for money).
I will agree that exploration may be a big one in Guild Wars 2 with different Dynamic Events popping up in the same area.
I could go with other games that people play a lot and enjoy for their Co-Op. Dungeon Defenders, Magicka, Mario Brothers Wii, etc, etc. There are long lists of games people enjoy for co-op and can play a lot and for a long time, especially if there's a lot of content. Don't get hung up on aspects regarding one example that wasn't particularly good. What helps such games out is if there is synergy between players, and we certainly have that in GW2 with skill combos and the like.
Again, people are only addicted to these Co-Op missions for the sense of achievement, to beat the game, get past a certain level, or just get a better score in a certain level.
And I see we agree the PvP doesn't need rewards of any real significance. Good. That said, I'd note many people play FPS with friends against enemy teams made of bots (bots can be reasonably competent, and can also come in greater numbers). People do this for the challenge and comraderie.
That's a rare specimen of people you know there. Being addicted by playing against bots? I have never seen that, even when it's a group of friends.
I find it hilarious that you think people don't keep playing ANY game because the gameplay is good, btw, then you go on to say they enjoy PvP gameplay so they keep playing THOSE games. Well, the same is true for Co-op games and single-player games. People can keep playing them for hundreds of hours because the gameplay is good. It helps a lot if more content is added. Sure people might take breaks now and then to play other games, but that's normal and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they won't come back and try out an expansion or the like later. There's no need for skinnerbox design unless you are trying to make people pay a monthly sub, and going for that actually harms the gameplay.
As I have said before, people don't keep playing PvP games because swinging a sword or hurling a fireball is cool. They keep playing because they want to beat other people, they want to feel almighty, they want to be a badass. People don't keep playing Co-op just for the hell of it, they do so to get past a certain level, to get an achievement, or to get a high score. Again, Guild Wars 2 just like Guild Wars 1 does indeed make use of skinner box mechanics in the forms of achievements, item skins, and titles (even though I find these rather boring and superfluous).
Just to clarify, is your argument that people will keep playing guild wars 2 because of the pvp?
If the argument is that there is no replay value in pve and thus everyone will jump to pvp after they get through pve that would be a bit of a stretch. While its true that a lot of people are gonna start getting into pvp after they hit the level cap, theres still going to be content in the pve, and the replay value of the game (with the branching personal story lines and the different races) will keep people playing alts if they so disire.
Also you dont even need to hit the level cap before you get competative, you can start right away, the thing is its your choice when you start to get into pvp just as much as its your choice when to make an alt and level that alt up. I agree that a lot of people will be getting into the player vs player once more people hit the endgame, but I trust Arena net when they say they will be adding more content after launch, so its very possible we'll get more things to do in pve before the replay value of the pve content runs dry.
also skinner box mechanics dont happen in guild wars 2, because the leveling curve is flat after a surtain point, the really good gear is never a random drop (you get a token from completing a dungeon that you can use to get an armor peice, and because each dungeon has several story paths you can take after completing the first story you wont be doing the same thing each time keeping this fresh while you get the tokens for the armor peices of that dungeon). the game has daily acheivements that you dont even have to pay attention to, what it ends up doing is it gives you extra xp if you say, kill 10 worms, but theres no point in farming that since you only get it once, and you will get it just as fast by doing events (which will award you with more exp as well as karma and money than those feats anyways).
The games progression isnt done in a way that you become dependant on finishing all the tasks in an area, you can just as well chose to do some of your personal storyline, or go into W v W v W to progress in level, so really it becomes player choice what they want to do, not just doing one or two things untill you gain the reward you want.
Skinner box mechanics are to keep the player doing things they dont want to do, for the hopes of an award they want, so that they will keep playing for months and months to pay a sub. Most MMOs do this by progressively making leveling longer, making loot drops from bosses random, and putting all the good content at the end of the game, and for some games to grind up armor score. But guild wars 2 doesnt have those problems, it can have fun stuff like cool loot with item skins without making it a skinner box mechanic, and it does this by making it player choice what items you get from a dungeon (as I explained earlier), and by giving you several options on how you can level up (your choice of W v W v W, personal story line, dynamic events, or even dungeons) and you can make this choice anytime you want, not just once youve hit the leveling cap.
Also loot is per individual all the time, so theres never a fight or random roll for who gets the token for completing a dungeon. Also theres not going to be specific items droping from events, what you get from events is karma, a resource that you can spend at a karma vendor to pick the item you want; so really theres never a time the player is forced to do specific content to get the item they want, since karma from any event can be used at any karma vendor, really its just about you picking and chosing which item you would like.
You also get a choice when choosing an award for completing part of the personal story line. The first award choice you get for a warrior (that Ive seen) is a choice between an axe, a mace, and a sword; while also getting a bow no matter what choice you make.
My argument is that Guild Wars 2 will make use of skinner box mechanics to keep players coming back to the PvE content in the forms of achievements, titles, and item skins. They will also use, like any online RPG, exploration and socialization to maintain its playerbase. What I am critiquing here is the fact that you people think gameplay alone leads to addiction which is entirely false. Every game that tries to keep the player addicted makes use of these elements. If gameplay were enough to keep players addicted, you would see many players addicted to killing random trash monsters in Diablo or doing the same mission in Call of Duty over and over again.
Endgame in GW2 is the least of my concerns because A.Net needs to put up new content to keep their profit incoming.
In the launch i expect personal story, competitive pvp, World Vs World vs World and end game story mode dungeons to keep me interested.
I'm hoping for an extremely large story mode dungeon at launch, something that will take some time to clear up and finish properly, so i can focus on that while taking breaks from the Mists.
My argument is that Guild Wars 2 will make use of skinner box mechanics to keep players coming back to the PvE content in the forms of achievements, titles, and item skins. They will also use, like any online RPG, exploration and socialization to maintain its playerbase. What I am critiquing here is the fact that you people think gameplay alone leads to addiction which is entirely false. Every game that tries to keep the player addicted makes use of these elements. If gameplay were enough to keep players addicted, you would see many players addicted to killing random trash monsters in Diablo or doing the same mission in Call of Duty over and over again.
A skinner box mechanic would refer to a mechanic that forces a player to do a boring task over and over until they gain an award they want. examples of a skinner box in MMOs would be the leveling curve, random item drop rates from bosses, gear grinding ect.
Titles in guild wars one were given by gaining an acheivement, but we dont know anything about the acheivements in the game besides what we've seen of the daily feats. Daily feats as I explained in my previous will give experience upon earning one, but you can only acheive these once a day and they give only a small boost to experience so theres no point in farming them. Since theres no point in grinding them all they are is a fun tool to boost your experience while you do other content, so you cant call this a skinner box, and i doubt anyone make daily feats their reason for continueing to play, sicne they only award experience and thats useless for a maxed out character.
the cool skins will be obtainable through karma vendors, and from dungeons. Dungeon items are obtained through the use of dungeon specific tokens which you get for completing the dungeon and then using that token to chose which item you want from that particular dungeon. Neither the karma items or the dungeon items are a skinner box mechanic because once you have enough karma, or complete a dungeon you know you will get the award you want. and because every event gives karma, and each dungeon has a story mode and 3 exploration modes theres practicly no grind involved since you almost never have to do the same objective twice to get karma or that dungeon token.
Before I argue my point on gameplay I want to make sure we're both on the same level here on our definitions of gameplay.
Gameplay: Gameplay is the pattern defined through the game rules, connection between player and the game, challenges and overcoming them, plot and player's connection with it. Video game gameplay is distinct from graphics, or audio elements.
Your point is that guild wars 2 cant rely on its gameplay (its combat, personal storyline, character progression, classes, crafting, dynamic events, dungeons, mini games, W v W v W, and competative 5 v 5) To keep players interested in the the game and that they have to use tactics like the skinner box in order to keep people playing past the level cap.
With the sheer amount of fun and diverse content in the game why would they need to use tactics like the skinner box to get you addicted? and considering there is no monthly fee for this game why would they have to use any skinner box measures to keep players playing past when they want to anyways?
what they provide for us in pve is a diverse experience with the dynamic events, classes, personal storyline, races and a very replayable experience due to the sheer amount of content in the game. You can pick it up and play it when you want and for how ever many hours you want without getting bored, but at the same time, because it doesnt have a sub you can chose to put it down when you want to (which isnt a bad thing). Guild wars 2 is more like rpg games like skyrim, which gives you a ton of different content but never forces you to do any of it you dont want to, and doesnt make you feel regret if you chose to do something else rather than play (and get the most out of your sub).
To put it simply, my argument is that Guild wars 2 doesnt need to hold peoples attention past the amount of content it has (which is still quite a lot and will be enough to keep people playing for quite a while) and it doesnt need to use skinner box tactics since its a B2P game and gets its money from sales, expansions, and cash shop (which only sells cosmetics).
Because of this they dont have to get you addicted to playing till the next expansion, all they got to do is make the experience good enough that it gives you the incentive to buy the expansion or maybe even invest in the cash shop. And like Guild wars one I expect these expansions to be an addition to the original experience, and not something your forced to buy in order to even play the game.
Good post. What you said is very interesting. So there are no rare skin drops from monsters/bosses? Everything is obtained through the token system?
EDIT: You do know that if tokens are the only way to get dungeon gear, it's still a skinner box right? You're "pushing the lever X amount of times before that reward comes."
Good post. What you said is very interesting. So there are no rare skin drops from monsters/bosses? Everything is obtained through the token system?
from what we know yea.
Theres still gonna be money in the game (gold silver copper) and weapon and armor vendors that sell things for money, but theres going to be karma vendors scattered throughout the world that will give you items more than likely with skins attached to the lore of that region/karma vendor. so for instance a karma vendor thats a sylvari in the jungle will probubly give you items that are made of branches and what not while a vendor in the middle of an ocean might give you ones covered in barnicles or made of coral. Not to say that normal armor vendors and weapon vendors wont give you items will cool skins, but just that karma vendors will give you some mroe variety and maybe even something you want more.
dungeon vendors will give you an armor set and maybe a few weapons with skins specific to that dungeon (I cant remember to much when it comes to weapons) and after completing that dungeon you'll get a token unique to that dungeon that you can use to chose your reward, so your never gonna end up fighting a boss to get the full set, and end up getting the same peice twice.
edit: its not a skinner box, because the reward will always come after you "pull the lever" once, a skinner box is when the amount of pulls is a number the player does not know, thus keeping them pulling it till they eventually get the award.
also like Ive stated before each "pull" is different, since after completing the story mode for the dungeon there are three different paths you can take through that dungeon, each with different objectives and goals to keep things interesting. So even the pulling of the lever in this case is interesting and apealing when doing a dungeon over.
edit: its not a skinner box, because the reward will always come after you "pull the lever" once, a skinner box is when the amount of pulls is a number the player does not know, thus keeping them pulling it till they eventually get the award.
This is actually false. The mice within one of the skinner box experiments knew that if they pulled X amount of times, they would be rewarded.
also like Ive stated before each "pull" is different, since after completing the story mode for the dungeon there are three different paths you can take through that dungeon, each with different objectives and goals to keep things interesting. So even the pulling of the lever in this case is interesting and apealing when doing a dungeon over.
Thing is: A.) Content is not endless so you will be repeating dungeons eventually and B.) You (I'm not saying you, Ablestron, specifically) will be doing dungeon runs regardless if you want to or not so that you can obtain tokens to get that super awesome new skin they just released. So yes, it most definitely is a skinner box.
What I wonder, Stealth, is why one can find you speaking for everyone in your posts? Is that your intention? Because you do it a lot. And it's your opinion, you cannot say that everyone does something for a certain reason, because I find myself disagreeing with nearly every one of your generalizations on how and why people do things, because I personally do them differently than you claim.
Don't try to win an argument by telling people why they play games, you may as well be telling them their taste is bad. If you need further examples of where you keep doing this, I'll be more than happy to point them out. It's kind of condescending, honestly.
No no, there is no need to point it out. I like being told why I play games and why I get enjoyment from those games. It's all starting to come together. Next we will be presented with yet another analogy on how our skinner box mentatlities, as it relates to gaming, will clearly show how there is a correlation to end games and life, or "end life" as in when we are older and why we choose to plan for that fateful day and such. I like being spoken for so maybe I can be told how to live next hmm?
/sarcasm off
Not trying to sound mean but Stealth has been coming in here pretty strongly lately and doing the same thing. Engage him if you want, but like Eir_S, I can show some examples of what I am talking about as well.
I also don't really agree with his points. I know why I plan on playing the game and what the end game sounds like to me, and it is just what I am looking for. Even if GW2's "End Game" doesn't live up to my expectations, I know I will support it if for no other reason than they are trying to do it differently. I like that they are going away from the anti grind mentality I just hope they don't strip it completely away because I do enjoy earning things. Not so much as a way of showing off what I have accomplished, more as something to acheive. From what I have read, there is plenty to keep me playing.
As I have stated, these are psychologically proven facts as to why video games are addicting. If you think your human mind operates differently from the rest of our kind, then so be it.
As I have stated, these are psychologically proven facts as to why video games are addicting. If you think your human mind operates differently from the rest of our kind, then so be it.
I am sure there are psychologicallly proven facts in regards to addictive behaviors and I don't think my mind operates differently. Funny because I thought the discussion was GW2 end game and why people find it to their liking and not a discussion about addictive behavior. You claim and speak for all and you can throw in all kind of analogies to try to make your point but your point is flawed on the sole fact that you are speaking for many when you can only speak for yourself and what YOU NEED from a game to keep you interested.
I also noticed that when it is in regards to TOR, you like to claim that the devs know whats best for their game in regards to business model and keeping their community playing, yet when you pop into the GW2 section you claim it's the complete opposite. I'll give you an example whe you are arguing the cause for TOR and I'll leave you with your own words.
You're not making any sense whatsoever. These people understand how games work far better than most of us. Does that mean they are not prone to committing mistakes? Of course not. Everyone makes a miscalculation at some point, it's inevitable. Yet, what matters is that their perspective is aided by their experience and their knowledge, and that is why a developer's view should be considered more carefully than your random fanboy.
As I have stated, these are psychologically proven facts as to why video games are addicting. If you think your human mind operates differently from the rest of our kind, then so be it.
I am sure there are psychologicallly proven facts in regards to addictive behaviors and I don't think my mind operates differently. Funny because I thought the discussion was GW2 end game and why people find it to their liking and not a discussion about addictive behavior. You claim and speak for all and you can throw in all kind of analogies to try to make your point but your point is flawed on the sole fact that you are speaking for many when you can only speak for yourself and what YOU NEED from a game to keep you interested.
I also noticed that when it is in regards to TOR, you like to claim that the devs know whats best for their game in regards to business model and keeping their community playing, yet when you pop into the GW2 section you claim it's the complete opposite. I'll give you an example whe you are arguing the cause for TOR and I'll leave you with your own words.
You're not making any sense whatsoever. These people understand how games work far better than most of us. Does that mean they are not prone to committing mistakes? Of course not. Everyone makes a miscalculation at some point, it's inevitable. Yet, what matters is that their perspective is aided by their experience and their knowledge, and that is why a developer's view should be considered more carefully than your random fanboy.
Getting a whiff of irony that put a smile on my face.
But just like others have said, I know why I'll be playing GW2 and what the endgame will entail for me and I don't see why I won't enjoy it.
Comments
That's funny. It's not really their character, but their character's gear that's "progressing". TYPICAL MMO players play TYPICAL MMOs that don't have a personalized storyline that affects anything but the status color code of their pauldrons of epic-waste-of-time. It takes months just to get a drop you want in a competitive PVE game like WoW where raids only open up once a week. Most of them are playing because it's virtual crack, not because they think there isn't a better alternative. Believe me, I know. I did it for way too long.
The typical MMO player is just really bored. You act as though playing for years is a choice and not a carefully planned scam by the devs to get people to keep coming back instead of getting everything they want at their own pace.
And I'll ask you something... when you've spent months or years in an expansion getting the very best stuff, stuff that was not at all easily gotten, and then a paid expansion comes out and makes ALL of it useless in one fell swoop, AND new players can just jump into a higher gear slot than you right away, do you find that enjoyable? Because I know a lot of people who don't. These people are sick of the TYPICAL MMO.
"Whew.. took down that Lich King guy. Only took 6 months. What? Cata greens are superior on day 1? Damn it, I thought I would be OP forever."
I'm not sure how GW2's end game will work in the finished product, but it's got to be better than selling your soul and tearing your hair out for loot that even the designers are already replacing by the time you put it on.
No it isn't... You can go see all branches equating to 32 dungeons. You can continue to pump hours into WvWvW like people continue to do with DAoC. You can go back and experience events you never saw, or combinations of them you never saw, or do your favorite ones when they are up. You can continue to get different gear. You can go have fun with the minigames of the different cities. You can finish your personal story if you haven't. And of course there is competitive PvP. How does that sound like start over or end game cycle?
I love how the part in red is ignored by the masses that only want to see, hear, and believe what they want to believe. GW2 will only have cosmetic and title rewards, bah!
No one here knows how many traits there are going to be in GW2 for each profession, or how long it will take to get each one. There could be 30 or there could be 80 traits per profession, no one knows! It could take 5 minutes per trait or it could take 15 to 30 to get some of the more difficult ones to achieve, again no one knows! Then there is the skill hunting, do I really need to remind you of this? From less than a month ago:
“The healing, utility, and elite skills (seen below) are now unlocked with skill points. Each skill may cost a variable number of skill points to unlock, but once the player is able to slot a particular type of skill, they may unlock the skills in any order that they choose. For example, if I unlocked my elite skill slot as a norn warrior, I may choose to spend my skill points to unlock Norn Bear Form (a norn racial elite skill) or Rampage (a warrior elite skill).
Skill points can be acquired by undertaking what we call a skill challenge. There are 200 skill challenges in the game, and they range from defeating tough opponents, to answering riddles, to drinking a particularly potent drink.
Some of our players may recognize “skill challenges” as being similar to a system we spoke about a while back called “profession challenges.” These two systems are one and the same. In the past, profession challenges were specific to a particular profession and were used to acquire traits. In playing these challenges, we found that they tended to split up people who were trying to play together. One player would want to go to one spot on the map to find their profession challenge, while their friend would want to go somewhere else to find a different profession challenge. Because this had an adverse affect on players being able to play together, we decided that it was better suited to skill acquisition than something as profession specific as traits.
This, of course, meant that we needed a new way to acquire traits, and since we were in the middle of revamping our trait system, it felt like a good time to make the change. We’ll talk about our new trait system in an upcoming blog post, so until then, I hope you’ve enjoyed hearing about the G-Star demo and all of the exciting new things going into the game.”
http://www.arena.net/blog/eric-flannum-on-the-guild-wars-2-g-star-demo
There are 200 skill challenges in game and no one here knows how long it will take to get all 200! You people do realize that these challenges could take a lot of time and not be considered a grind. For example each dungeon has an armor and weapon set so in order to get the whole thing you have to run the same dungeon group 6 or 7 times I believe. ANet does not consider this grinding because it is not forced on the players, no one in the game needs to do this in order to compete and play with other players. The same could be said of the skills your character does not need every skill in order to compete in world vs. world or to play with other players, it would be your choice to get them all.
Until we get too see a majority of these skill challenges and trait objectives in action no one here knows how long it will take to acquire them all it could be in the days, hours, or be in the minutes range. But to ignore this all together as part of end game until we learn more is just foolish!
I wouldn't assume anyone is ignoring anything. It would seem you want to "believe what you want to believe" about those who disagree with your viewpoint, regardless of how rational, reasoned or justified those disagreements may be. There are certainly cases where your assertion is true, where some peoples' opinions are immovably biased, and they then pick and choose which facts to use to best support their arguments while conveniently ignoring the tohers; but I think *most* of the discussion in this thread has been reasonable on both sides.
In this case, there are 2 good reasons why people may not have found it necessary to respond to those 2 particular points. For one, the acquisition of skills/spells/abilities and traits/masteries/talents/perks is a progression that almost exclusively takes place during the leveling process in pretty much every single game. And this whole conversation has been about what one will do once max level is reached. Certainly players won't wait until level 80 to finally unlock most of their skills. I do hope that there will be room to continue this progression to some extent though, which leads to reason #2, like you said, we just don't know yet. All the information isn't there. Zeroxin's post was valid, as is yours, since this thread is about speculation afterall. But once it was said, it was out there. There's really not much more to be said on either end until we learn more.
I too eagerly await their complete trait blog post.
... why not?
That depends upon how the game is designed, whether or not the skills/traits are something you're going to mostly get during the leveling process, or something that extends beyond it.
In the original Guild Wars, collecting skills extended far beyond max level, and it would in fact be impossible to get them all (Or even half of them, for that matter) before hitting level cap.
It really just depends upon how they choose to space everything out.
Thanks Meowhead! To completely ignore how GW1 skill system was designed when both games are designed by ANet is foolish. Especially when ANet has said more than once that the trait system is designed to make the GW1 fans of the Elite skill hunt (build system) happy, I could see the trait system extending well past max level. As for the skill challenges we know you get your first elite skill around 30, unless they have changed that, having around 200 skills packed into the leveling process from 30 to 80 would make it feel crammed in. That would be 4 per level on top of doing DEs, personal story and PVP for XP, there is no way you are not going to out- level content.
Now if they added some of that to end game then you might only have 1 or 2 per level to get done. Of course this is all just theory since we do not know enough about the trait or skill challenge system. Like I said earlier to just say that endgame is nothing but cosmetic and titles is beyond ignorant since we do not know about the other parts of the game.
Rofl... Bro, you got this all wrong. These games are not addicting because their gameplay is fun. Diablo, for instance, is only addicting because of the same reason WoW is addicting. There is a never-ending character progression and you never know when you might get that next item. The player is constantly lured into playing the game thinking that he might get that fabled drop. Starcraft and Counter Strike on the other hand don't have progression so they need to rely on other methods to remain addicting, and that element is human competition. People enjoy beating others, feeling superior, feeling in control. That sense of empowerment is constantly sought after and it is what leads these types of games to become addicting. Why are games like Brickbreaker so addicting? Because the player is constantly trying to beat his/her high score.
If these games were addicting because their gameplay was fun, then you would see players that would be addicted to playing FPS or RTS matches against bots. You would see players mindlessly killing monsters in Diablo. As this is clearly not the case, Guild Wars 2 will utilize human competition, in the form of PvP, and progression, in the forms of achievements, skins, and titles to remain addicting. However, while PvP seems fine, many do not like the idea of having solely the superficial forms of progression mentioned above to keep them playing. There's also socializing and exploration, but that is something present in most MMORPG's.
I don't know if you guys are agreeing or disagreeing anymore lol
Diablo is pretty fun through the difficulty levels just because it gets harder and more challenging. The combat is action-based and fun. Granted it doesn't have a lot of content in a number of ways, but that gameplay is good and compelling. I will admit there are better examples, however. Skyrim would probably be a better fit for GW2 as far as single-player games go. There's a large world to explore in both (DE make even old areas different in GW2). Loot doesn't matter as much (even more true in Skyrim than in GW2, ES games have a history of overall rather poor loot that is largely just sold for money). I could go with other games that people play a lot and enjoy for their Co-Op. Dungeon Defenders, Magicka, Mario Brothers Wii, etc, etc. There are long lists of games people enjoy for co-op and can play a lot and for a long time, especially if there's a lot of content. Don't get hung up on aspects regarding one example that wasn't particularly good. What helps such games out is if there is synergy between players, and we certainly have that in GW2 with skill combos and the like.
And I see we agree the PvP doesn't need rewards of any real significance. Good. That said, I'd note many people play FPS with friends against enemy teams made of bots (bots can be reasonably competent, and can also come in greater numbers). People do this for the challenge and comraderie.
I find it hilarious that you think people don't keep playing ANY game because the gameplay is good, btw, then you go on to say they enjoy PvP gameplay so they keep playing THOSE games. Well, the same is true for Co-op games and single-player games. People can keep playing them for hundreds of hours because the gameplay is good. It helps a lot if more content is added. Sure people might take breaks now and then to play other games, but that's normal and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean they won't come back and try out an expansion or the like later. There's no need for skinnerbox design unless you are trying to make people pay a monthly sub, and going for that actually harms the gameplay.
What I wonder, Stealth, is why one can find you speaking for everyone in your posts? Is that your intention? Because you do it a lot. And it's your opinion, you cannot say that everyone does something for a certain reason, because I find myself disagreeing with nearly every one of your generalizations on how and why people do things, because I personally do them differently than you claim.
Don't try to win an argument by telling people why they play games, you may as well be telling them their taste is bad. If you need further examples of where you keep doing this, I'll be more than happy to point them out. It's kind of condescending, honestly.
Woah, woah woah, a rare specimen of people that enjoy playing bots? Umm... Tell that to the millions of kids playing zombies in CoD, or Spec OPS in MW3, I personally dislike the games but that is certainly not a rare specimen of people.
Also, I sure as hell don't play the games the way you do.. I don't fire up the Witcher 2 because I want to progress my character "lootwise".. I play it because I am immersed in the world, and enjoy the storyline. I don't get on Skyrim because of a carrot on a stick loot treadmill. Come on... Not everybody loves that style of play, and it damn sure has been over done in the MMO industry.
Also, Idk why Drach hasn't used WvWvW or Structured PvP on you... Do you know that ANet is striving to make a game that is going to be at the top in E-Sports? I played it in the Alienware Arena at PAX and it damn sure feels like they are achieiving this. People will continue to play the competitive pvp in GW2 for the same reason people play Counterstrike, Medal of Honor, Battlefield, LoL, DOTA.. To compete against others. I am sure there will be some people who hop right into competitive PvP and never touch the PvE content. Also, WvWvW is bringing back one of the best PvP structures of all time in DAoC. 3 servers with thousands of players to boast each, pitted against each other in a persistent zone that consists of 4 large maps. DAoC still sits around the 10k sub mark, and it is a decade old. Why? There still isn't character progression, but it still has one of the best PvP formats there ever was, and people still play it because of that.
None of your arguments hold any weight. There is still a carrot on a stick in GW2, but in this game it is optional, and it doesn't last as long as it does in other games. However, the game is aiming to be fun, and not a timesink that traps you in because you need the next tier of loot.
I was thinking the exact same thing. According to Stealth, people are only interested in vertical progression, yet I've logged more hours in Left 4 Dead 2, for example, than ANY other Steam game to date.
Do the characters evolve or advance? No.
Do they get new loot to use in future matches? No.
Is the game fun? Yes. That's why I can play one level over and over again. Because the gameplay is fluid, and I like killing bots with friends, not one iota of advancement involved. There is no end-all-be-all right or wrong way to play video games.
Edit: To anyone who feels like arguing my point, L4D2 has no vertical progression, even in Stealth's "to get to the next level" example, since every level is available to you from the start.
Just to clarify, is your argument that people will keep playing guild wars 2 because of the pvp?
If the argument is that there is no replay value in pve and thus everyone will jump to pvp after they get through pve that would be a bit of a stretch. While its true that a lot of people are gonna start getting into pvp after they hit the level cap, theres still going to be content in the pve, and the replay value of the game (with the branching personal story lines and the different races) will keep people playing alts if they so disire.
Also you dont even need to hit the level cap before you get competative, you can start right away, the thing is its your choice when you start to get into pvp just as much as its your choice when to make an alt and level that alt up. I agree that a lot of people will be getting into the player vs player once more people hit the endgame, but I trust Arena net when they say they will be adding more content after launch, so its very possible we'll get more things to do in pve before the replay value of the pve content runs dry.
also skinner box mechanics dont happen in guild wars 2, because the leveling curve is flat after a surtain point, the really good gear is never a random drop (you get a token from completing a dungeon that you can use to get an armor peice, and because each dungeon has several story paths you can take after completing the first story you wont be doing the same thing each time keeping this fresh while you get the tokens for the armor peices of that dungeon). the game has daily acheivements that you dont even have to pay attention to, what it ends up doing is it gives you extra xp if you say, kill 10 worms, but theres no point in farming that since you only get it once, and you will get it just as fast by doing events (which will award you with more exp as well as karma and money than those feats anyways).
The games progression isnt done in a way that you become dependant on finishing all the tasks in an area, you can just as well chose to do some of your personal storyline, or go into W v W v W to progress in level, so really it becomes player choice what they want to do, not just doing one or two things untill you gain the reward you want.
Skinner box mechanics are to keep the player doing things they dont want to do, for the hopes of an award they want, so that they will keep playing for months and months to pay a sub. Most MMOs do this by progressively making leveling longer, making loot drops from bosses random, and putting all the good content at the end of the game, and for some games to grind up armor score. But guild wars 2 doesnt have those problems, it can have fun stuff like cool loot with item skins without making it a skinner box mechanic, and it does this by making it player choice what items you get from a dungeon (as I explained earlier), and by giving you several options on how you can level up (your choice of W v W v W, personal story line, dynamic events, or even dungeons) and you can make this choice anytime you want, not just once youve hit the leveling cap.
Also loot is per individual all the time, so theres never a fight or random roll for who gets the token for completing a dungeon. Also theres not going to be specific items droping from events, what you get from events is karma, a resource that you can spend at a karma vendor to pick the item you want; so really theres never a time the player is forced to do specific content to get the item they want, since karma from any event can be used at any karma vendor, really its just about you picking and chosing which item you would like.
You also get a choice when choosing an award for completing part of the personal story line. The first award choice you get for a warrior (that Ive seen) is a choice between an axe, a mace, and a sword; while also getting a bow no matter what choice you make.
My argument is that Guild Wars 2 will make use of skinner box mechanics to keep players coming back to the PvE content in the forms of achievements, titles, and item skins. They will also use, like any online RPG, exploration and socialization to maintain its playerbase. What I am critiquing here is the fact that you people think gameplay alone leads to addiction which is entirely false. Every game that tries to keep the player addicted makes use of these elements. If gameplay were enough to keep players addicted, you would see many players addicted to killing random trash monsters in Diablo or doing the same mission in Call of Duty over and over again.
Endgame in GW2 is the least of my concerns because A.Net needs to put up new content to keep their profit incoming.
In the launch i expect personal story, competitive pvp, World Vs World vs World and end game story mode dungeons to keep me interested.
I'm hoping for an extremely large story mode dungeon at launch, something that will take some time to clear up and finish properly, so i can focus on that while taking breaks from the Mists.
A skinner box mechanic would refer to a mechanic that forces a player to do a boring task over and over until they gain an award they want. examples of a skinner box in MMOs would be the leveling curve, random item drop rates from bosses, gear grinding ect.
Titles in guild wars one were given by gaining an acheivement, but we dont know anything about the acheivements in the game besides what we've seen of the daily feats. Daily feats as I explained in my previous will give experience upon earning one, but you can only acheive these once a day and they give only a small boost to experience so theres no point in farming them. Since theres no point in grinding them all they are is a fun tool to boost your experience while you do other content, so you cant call this a skinner box, and i doubt anyone make daily feats their reason for continueing to play, sicne they only award experience and thats useless for a maxed out character.
the cool skins will be obtainable through karma vendors, and from dungeons. Dungeon items are obtained through the use of dungeon specific tokens which you get for completing the dungeon and then using that token to chose which item you want from that particular dungeon. Neither the karma items or the dungeon items are a skinner box mechanic because once you have enough karma, or complete a dungeon you know you will get the award you want. and because every event gives karma, and each dungeon has a story mode and 3 exploration modes theres practicly no grind involved since you almost never have to do the same objective twice to get karma or that dungeon token.
Before I argue my point on gameplay I want to make sure we're both on the same level here on our definitions of gameplay.
Gameplay: Gameplay is the pattern defined through the game rules, connection between player and the game, challenges and overcoming them, plot and player's connection with it. Video game gameplay is distinct from graphics, or audio elements.
Your point is that guild wars 2 cant rely on its gameplay (its combat, personal storyline, character progression, classes, crafting, dynamic events, dungeons, mini games, W v W v W, and competative 5 v 5) To keep players interested in the the game and that they have to use tactics like the skinner box in order to keep people playing past the level cap.
With the sheer amount of fun and diverse content in the game why would they need to use tactics like the skinner box to get you addicted? and considering there is no monthly fee for this game why would they have to use any skinner box measures to keep players playing past when they want to anyways?
what they provide for us in pve is a diverse experience with the dynamic events, classes, personal storyline, races and a very replayable experience due to the sheer amount of content in the game. You can pick it up and play it when you want and for how ever many hours you want without getting bored, but at the same time, because it doesnt have a sub you can chose to put it down when you want to (which isnt a bad thing). Guild wars 2 is more like rpg games like skyrim, which gives you a ton of different content but never forces you to do any of it you dont want to, and doesnt make you feel regret if you chose to do something else rather than play (and get the most out of your sub).
To put it simply, my argument is that Guild wars 2 doesnt need to hold peoples attention past the amount of content it has (which is still quite a lot and will be enough to keep people playing for quite a while) and it doesnt need to use skinner box tactics since its a B2P game and gets its money from sales, expansions, and cash shop (which only sells cosmetics).
Because of this they dont have to get you addicted to playing till the next expansion, all they got to do is make the experience good enough that it gives you the incentive to buy the expansion or maybe even invest in the cash shop. And like Guild wars one I expect these expansions to be an addition to the original experience, and not something your forced to buy in order to even play the game.
Good post. What you said is very interesting. So there are no rare skin drops from monsters/bosses? Everything is obtained through the token system?
EDIT: You do know that if tokens are the only way to get dungeon gear, it's still a skinner box right? You're "pushing the lever X amount of times before that reward comes."
from what we know yea.
Theres still gonna be money in the game (gold silver copper) and weapon and armor vendors that sell things for money, but theres going to be karma vendors scattered throughout the world that will give you items more than likely with skins attached to the lore of that region/karma vendor. so for instance a karma vendor thats a sylvari in the jungle will probubly give you items that are made of branches and what not while a vendor in the middle of an ocean might give you ones covered in barnicles or made of coral. Not to say that normal armor vendors and weapon vendors wont give you items will cool skins, but just that karma vendors will give you some mroe variety and maybe even something you want more.
dungeon vendors will give you an armor set and maybe a few weapons with skins specific to that dungeon (I cant remember to much when it comes to weapons) and after completing that dungeon you'll get a token unique to that dungeon that you can use to chose your reward, so your never gonna end up fighting a boss to get the full set, and end up getting the same peice twice.
edit: its not a skinner box, because the reward will always come after you "pull the lever" once, a skinner box is when the amount of pulls is a number the player does not know, thus keeping them pulling it till they eventually get the award.
also like Ive stated before each "pull" is different, since after completing the story mode for the dungeon there are three different paths you can take through that dungeon, each with different objectives and goals to keep things interesting. So even the pulling of the lever in this case is interesting and apealing when doing a dungeon over.
No no, there is no need to point it out. I like being told why I play games and why I get enjoyment from those games. It's all starting to come together. Next we will be presented with yet another analogy on how our skinner box mentatlities, as it relates to gaming, will clearly show how there is a correlation to end games and life, or "end life" as in when we are older and why we choose to plan for that fateful day and such. I like being spoken for so maybe I can be told how to live next hmm?
/sarcasm off
Not trying to sound mean but Stealth has been coming in here pretty strongly lately and doing the same thing. Engage him if you want, but like Eir_S, I can show some examples of what I am talking about as well.
I also don't really agree with his points. I know why I plan on playing the game and what the end game sounds like to me, and it is just what I am looking for. Even if GW2's "End Game" doesn't live up to my expectations, I know I will support it if for no other reason than they are trying to do it differently. I like that they are going away from the anti grind mentality I just hope they don't strip it completely away because I do enjoy earning things. Not so much as a way of showing off what I have accomplished, more as something to acheive. From what I have read, there is plenty to keep me playing.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
As I have stated, these are psychologically proven facts as to why video games are addicting. If you think your human mind operates differently from the rest of our kind, then so be it.
I am sure there are psychologicallly proven facts in regards to addictive behaviors and I don't think my mind operates differently. Funny because I thought the discussion was GW2 end game and why people find it to their liking and not a discussion about addictive behavior. You claim and speak for all and you can throw in all kind of analogies to try to make your point but your point is flawed on the sole fact that you are speaking for many when you can only speak for yourself and what YOU NEED from a game to keep you interested.
I also noticed that when it is in regards to TOR, you like to claim that the devs know whats best for their game in regards to business model and keeping their community playing, yet when you pop into the GW2 section you claim it's the complete opposite. I'll give you an example whe you are arguing the cause for TOR and I'll leave you with your own words.
You're not making any sense whatsoever. These people understand how games work far better than most of us. Does that mean they are not prone to committing mistakes? Of course not. Everyone makes a miscalculation at some point, it's inevitable. Yet, what matters is that their perspective is aided by their experience and their knowledge, and that is why a developer's view should be considered more carefully than your random fanboy.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Getting a whiff of irony that put a smile on my face.
But just like others have said, I know why I'll be playing GW2 and what the endgame will entail for me and I don't see why I won't enjoy it.