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** Why The Individual has no value in Modern Generation MMORPGS. **
Divion
Member UncommonPosts: 411
There I was… standing in line.. waiting my turn to type /hail while targeting a divine beauty, her name was Elane – I been through this routine before.. when it was my turn, and I hailed her, she promptly invited me into her group.. payment upfront – That’s how it worked, it was a donation, so anything would suffice, but I valued her services, so I always gave a full platinum piece, after all I needed to entice her to offer her services at further length if possible – and she did, I could find Elane here.. In a small corner of the Nexus on the Moon of Luclin – What was it she offered? A very rare, and valuable buff.. Kia’s Endless Intellect – As a druid this buff could increase my experience rate during grind sessions tenfold, cut down on my downtime, and shed hours off my AOE Kiting sessions.. So why her? Why would hundreds wait in line to be buffed by her, and pay… surely there are more who could offer this buff?… and that my friends.. is the morale to this story..
Elane was a level 60 Enchanter, a very rare thing to find, and yet even so – You could try to track down another Enchanter to give this buff – However you might find yourself spending more time then you wish to try, and get it – and most had unreasonable prices for a Druid in his mid 30s to afford. I could grind with out it.. but that was like choosing to wear shoes with out socks.. best to avoid it if possible.
Back in those days.. Buffs were valuable.. They were not free. They could not be spammed for the fun of it, and most of all.. They made the difference!
In the modern MMORPG of free levels, and free buffs, individuals have no value.. we are just another number.. another max level xx class among an ocean of them…
A situation created by the give everyone a max level philosophies of casual MMORPGS – Back then only a high level enchanter could cast this buff, and high levels were hard to come by, it could take you a year to reach max, if you played hardcore +20 hours a week.
Sure that wasn’t any fun.. Thinking I would almost never see the level cap… but did it bother me? NO – It was an adventure, I felt like their was this perpetual goal, something to keep me going, I didn’t need cookie-cutter raids, and instanced PvP, I was a cog-wheel in a machine too large to comprehend, often in awe over the largest cog-wheels, and the amazing feats they could perform.
Hell.. it was an experience, it was entertainment to see a high level character, with their –Epic- weapon, who could cast spells I had never seen in over a year of playing… it was like watching a magician at a birthday party..
This is what brought me to this genre.. the overwhelming scale of the worlds, and universe, why can’t we have this anymore?
I understand the overwhelming demand by casual players for a casual MMORPG, and companies go with the demand, and the market demands casual…
But with most casual MMORPGS failing to sustain, and retain subscriptions, one would think that going back to a more modernized Everquest style model could prove to be profitable.
I’m sure there is a healthy market of gamers like myself that want the Hardcore feel back..
Hell.. I’d even pay double the going subscription to see it happen.. that’s right I’d pay 30 bucks a month for a modernized Everquest…
YOU HEAR ME GAME DEVELOPERS! – I’m sure I’m not alone.
Comments
I did enjoy VG for a while, to me it felt like the real sequel to Everquest.
That was something else of value.. travel...
Before i quit i was a level 50 druid, i had allot of the Druid Circle Teleportation spells.. but not all of them... with my arsenal of spells -- I could dazzle quite of few people.. and made allot of money from my traveling services.. flightpoints didn't exist... mounts were like owning a fighter jet, expensive, and rare.. as they allowed for mediation while in combat, and still some-what new around that time frame...
Lets not even talk about my value for SoW buff, or even Wolf Group Transformation spells...
I used to feel so cool turning a group into wolves, and running through the Faydark with friends.. most never experienced that before, and thought it was cooler then a rocket ship on the moon.
-signed.
Wouldn't mind seeing another awesome MMO like Everquest.
I think thats a great point. I never played EQ so I never had that sort of experience. As I am a casual gamer, I can't match the sorts of time invested to reach these sorts of goals (max level toon before everyone and their dog is max level). In Aion, I played for 9 months and never hit lvl 50. So I'm guessing that a game like that would never give me the feeling of value anyhow, and would more just make the hardcore feel valuable. Am I right in that assumption?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
It's more a case of - Most everyone in MMORPGs once long ago were nerds, or super nerds. We couldn't socialize beyond our barriers of introverteness, and games were a doorway to conversation. We weren't dependant on buffs, we were dependant on each other. Now that much more well adjusted people are in the market, and many of us learned from games and how to talk to people beyond the screen, nobody has a need to stop and chat because they can actually go out and do that.
You, as did I liked the PEOPLE much more than their buffs. Friendship is a +100 to everything.
(of course, at the same time games decoupled a lot of dependancy, which was a huge factor as well that fufilled into that)
It may not have bothered you.. but it bothered me. And judging by the way that the industry is moving, you are the minority. I'm having more fun then ever in the more casual gaming enviroment due to my age/job/children and playstyle. So while you look back and reminisce, I look forward to the future, and have fun in the present where I can actually feel like someone in a game.
You see, I see what you're saying as backwards for a guy like me. In the style you're referring back to, the individual player who could grind for 30+ hours a week was the only one who had value. Guys like me, who play only a few hours a week were completely and utterly meanless. With the games now, even as a casual gamer, I can be of great importance to a group as a healer (for example). I may not have a buff that no one else has, but I can heal them and get them through an instance or quest with no issues... that's valuable too. It's all in how you look at it. But I'll tell you one thing.. it's not gonna pay anytime soon to be a "hardcore" mmo'er. Life will be filled with disapointment and a lack of content as they burn through it in a week...lol.
Sure. There are people who LIKE World of Warcraft and prefer it over the older type of games. No one should attempt to stop games like World of Warcraft from getting made, but since society is based on money, you will find a lot of people voting with their wallets which WILL stop games like that from being made, JUST like how the older type of MMORPGs were stopped and began to copy things WoW did because of money.
That was a very nice write and very true. But let me point, that when EQ was at that stage, and worse later with PoP with enchanters sitting all day in PoP hub giving that overpowered buff, was the start of the decadence of EQ, thanks to SOE.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Those nostalgia glasses are pretty rosey aren't they? I look back on EQ with fond memories as well (sometimes). Getting my banded armor by trading mino axes. That was a great experience, but you know what? That was my first MMO and my first MMO experience, where everything was new and exciting!
Knowing what I know now I would never play EQ. My poor druid was a loner because no one wanted to group with him in dungeons, they alway preferrred the holy trinity (wiz, war, cleric, and other classes but druids always seemed to be on the bottem). Putting my name on a 'list' so I could wait hours until I got invited to a spawn camp in lower guk, and trusting said system.
Anyway, past games always look great through the rosey glasses of nostalgia. Todays games are not any better from the pasts (some could argue they are worse). Anyway, I'm without an MMO right now so I'm just bitter.
I agree with you 1000X %
Amazing is that this is exactly what I search in MMO.
To be individual , special by some skill.
You did have it in early MMOs. You could be a blacksmith capable of doing some special thing required. Or maybe thief that could break special lock in dungeon. Hacker that could open pathway to special instance...
I search this in every MMO
Thought maybe in Fallen Earth , with its crafting orientation you can be the rare one that crafts some vital ingridient....
But no...
In MMOs you are a rogue , same like 1000 other. Perhaps you do 0.0001 DPS more. But thats it.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS MISSING!!!!!!
Thanks OP
Sounds like exact opposite of what we view as good in real life. It's for people who want to feel better than others since they can put more time and effort in game. It sounds superego nightmare where those that are "better" feed those that are "poor", like in Texas. If point of game is to make you feel better than you are in real life, why would you want to have game that has exactly same or even worse system that is in real life.
Besides there is tons of those games, they are competive sport games. Only difference is that they don't try dress themself as something else. In the end it's same thing saying "Oh I'm so much better than you, here have this buff" as it is "Oh I'm so much better than you, eat dirt and die".
Elane was a buff spamming bot. Whether she existed in only in code or in real life aswell is a mystery. Botting is againtst EULA and fulfilling a role which a bot can do just aswell is just sad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
EQ Next is planned to be basically a new version of EQ1 with upgraded graphics. No idea when it will release, though. I doubt it will cost 30 euro / dollar per month, though.
to the OP: we roleplayers are a dieing breed man
The reason the individual was more important is the early MMO's were designed with a great amount of specialization of skills/roles/classes which resulted in a significant amount of dependency of players on others since they couldn't do everything themselves.
It forced (heavens!!!) players to interact with each other to trade, to buff, to heal, to rest, to in fact, socialize with each other in many different facets of the game world.
Heck, w/o voice chat you had to take dungeons a bit slower so people had time to type their responses and interact between fights.
Modern MMO's no longer have that, its pretty much everyone is a uniclass, able to craft near everything they need, heal/buff themselves etc.
There is no better between the two models, just a matter of what a person prefers and the more casual players certainly favor the latter model.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You will never get another MMO where you can be unique or where there are dozens of options for you to pursue. It's just not in a developers interest to do so, before launch and especially afterwards. Infact, a developer would be mad to recreate another EQ game from a financial perspective.
I'm afraid all that is left now is to wait for the next generation of MMO, which will probably be along the lines of The Secret World, where factors outside of the game are involved.
I gave up looking for individuality now and just rely on my name - where only difference between me and everyone else will be personality on chat.
There is not a healthy market of gamers who want a hardcore mmorpg. Not for what it costs to develop an MMORPG now.
You are not alone, but you are in a minority.
For instance: AoC and Warhammer were pretty lame games (imo). They didn't bring much new to the table. AoC had a horrible launch and Warhammer just didn't grab many people. However, Warhammer made money in it's first year. It makes enough money now to be profitable and to keep it's subscription model. AoC made enough money to pay for itself, several expansions and to fund the development of another MMORPG. It doesn't matter that it went F2P...it's profitable. There are half a dozen or so casual/themepark mmorpg running concurrently, and they are all profitable and many of them are funding development of new games. Even Champions and Star Trek Online are successful enough to get another game made.
Eve, the most successful hardcore/sandbox mmorpg ever, managed to become profitable after 12 years (5 development, 7 running). They've managed to fund development of another game (not an MMORPG, but close) and partially fund an MMORPG, which will eventually get developed because CCP is nothing if not persistent.
Financially, the very best 'hardcore' game barely compares to the weakest 'casual' games. When you look at Trion and Rift, which not only is making money but has funded development on two other full on MMORPG(RTS), the 'hardcore' market just doesn't compare.
That doesn't mean someone can't make a decent hardcore or sandbox game, but it won't be a triple A game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Vanguard is the way to go for those that like this type of game, question is if you do why are you not playing it?
If all hardcore players played this game it would increase the pop by a good number I am sure.
I personally don't trust SOE with the recent account hacking
What is everyone else's excuse besides it not being the newest shiniest thing out there, and if its that then how hardcore are you truly?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I think this is tue over anything I've read here. I played Eq1 also and guess what? You weren't special. You were just like every other character.. it just felt different because it was long ago and we tend to remember the good over the bad. I mean, you were happy about standing in line waiting to get a buff. That doesn't sound all that fun. It's the memories, not the game.
I realized this when I think back to Shadowbane. It was my first real head first dive into MMO's. I had dabbled in Eq1 and Ultima, but I really went for Shadowbane full steam. Myself and friends included, ( as I still play with about 5 guys I met on Shadowbane 8 years later) sit and reminicse about the game. We remembered the good times, and felt the same way about being an individual who mattered. Hell, I remeber the first time I was promoted in a guild, I was beside myself! The first time I was named to the "Inner Council" of a guild... lost my mind! What we were remembering were the good times as it was a first for many of us. We left shadowbane in about 2006 or so, 3 years after it started, for greener pastures. We then chased the game for 3 years, looking for something like it, but better. We hopped from game to game finding no satisfaction....
All this time, it turns out.. we weren't chasing the game.. we were chasing a memory. None of the games we played could fill the void, so in about 2009, we went back to Shadowbane before they closed for good. Guess what? The game was a turd. We instantly started to remember the poor performance, rubber banding, no questing, heavy grinding... sitting at an Ettin spawn for 12 hours to power level with a god damned Druid. Buggy laggy fights and classes, that if were not built exactly the "right" way, were worthless.
That's when it hit me... I'll never have that feeling again... Trust me, no matter what a developer makes... it won't replace the memory of that first one. It will never be as good in your mind. Now that I'm older with a child and a full time job, the casual game style really suits me.. and although nothing will replace those first years in shadowbane, I can still have a good time.
I'd bet the two highlighted bits have a cause/effect relationship.
I can't speak to EQ, really(I played it only long enough to realize I didn't like it. 4 hours, tops.)
But I did play SWG for a good while, which was similar with Doc/Entertainer buffs.
It was one thing to have some invaluable buffs that only certain classes could give you, quite another to make buffs the difference between barely squeaking through a gunfight with a couple stormtroopers, to TK stomping the crap out of a GROUP of RANCOR.
The unfortunate situation is that, at least in terms of old MMO's, you had to offer some game-breaking imbalance in order to get higher levels to matter. Where most modern games use percentages on buffs, so that a 60th level's buff gives 5% endurance, the old games might do a flat amount, which could double/triple a lower level character's stat, and thus they could rip through mobs like a wet paper bag.
So when it came to creating a monster that could challenge both players, you either created a 1HK for the non-buffed, or an insignificant bug for the buffed player. Buffs were so extreme that there was no chance at all for a middle ground. The end result? One frustrated player, and one bored one.
Your experience without the rosey glasses is very different from mine.
In EQ you could certainly make a name for yourself both good or bad. Because the penalty for dying was so harsh with naked corpse runs and xp loss possible level loss, people remembered who saved their asses, who healed like there was no tomorrow, who crowd controlled like a master when shit hit the fan, who evacuated everybody out at just the right time, who was nice enough to pull everybodys corpses out of a bad area.
You were asked as soon as you logged on to join groups because you were remembered as an excellent player. Not just because you were a nice guy.
The opposite was true for those that played badly, griefed or otherwise made an unfortunate impression on others. People didn't forget and the word spread, often leading to that person rerolling because the comminity punished the player when the GMs couldn't
No you weren't just another number. You are mistaking then for now.
Today you are just a random person easily replaced and easily forgotten.
BTW OP, best post I have read a long time. You are dead on with everything you wrote. Unfortunally all those mechanics are niche mechanics today.
I think I'm of the persuasion that believes that an MMO that features what the OP mentioned is great, but doesn't have the time to level through the whole process if the world is TOO big or TOO open.
I want to have individual value in games, but sadly, I won't forsake the rest of my life to lose modern gaming conveniences.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com
What is it exactly you are suppose to have time for. Get to end level and start doing raids? In the end that's what people mean when they don't have time for games like that. Sadly that's all MMOs have been reduced to. Getting to max preferably yesterday
CORRECT!
The community grew together.. trolls didn't exist! Some rotten apples here, and there but the community could police their own...
People could make a name through various accomplishments, healers had tremedous value as to their ressurections, and valor HP buffs, anyone with combat, or movement buffs had great value...
The game was hard forcing specific classes to group, and build strong ties with each other.. not that soloing was impossible, and several classes could do it..
Bards, Druids, Necormancers, Shadow Knights, Wizards, Mages, Beastmasters... all apt solo classes, some better then others..
I remember i made -STRONG- friendships in the game, poeple saw me a valuable asset to a team..
The thing is.. nothing is valuable anymore.. a person can ninja in a dungeon, but they don't care.. that de-valueable of players also makes their crimes un-noteworthy, poeple can troll community with out much fear of reprocussions.
Those that claim that i'm paintin a prettier picture for EQ then it was..
Look.. i'm a busy man... Full Time Job, Full Time Student.. I do MMA 3 times a week, strength train 2 Times a week.. i know i couldn't commit the time to a hardcore MMORPG like i did in highscool...
But i'm fine with that.. knowing that there is this perpetual goal.. this always out of reach carrot.. that to me is better then buying a game and being given the key to the carrot storage room on day 1...
and if thats the choice, i'll go with the former over the latter any day.
Hmm... good point. I actually don't find raiding all too appealing. For instance, in EQ2, my real draw is in making furniture, exploring the zones, and decorating houses.
I guess I'm in agreement with the OP, but do see that it's not the game most players expect to see these days.
Apologies, by the way, if my comment sounded confrontational. Wasn't my intention.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com