If something can be done legitimately ingame (IE no third party, hacking the server or whatever) nobody should be banned, banning players for faulty programming/design is just stupid to me.
It's like saying killing is wrong , yet you got people who become serial killers and what happens when they get caught? Either death penalty of prison for life. It's like saying bullying is wrong , yet we're surrounded by intimidation. So because you can pick on someone 3 times smaller then you means it's the small guy's fault? They have been warned about the exploit , yet they still abuse it. Punishment well deserved. Exploiting after warnings is a crime like almost everything else in life. They want to exploit? Let them go back to Maple Story or any NcSoft certified game.
No it isnt like saying "killing is wrong etc etc". Real life analogies for things like this are bad enough but this one doesnt even make much sense. Being banned in a game can never be compared to murder and capital punishment.
I do not have much sympathy for the exploiters though, if the where warned about using the bug but kept on anyway they deserve a ban. Anyone that accidently makes use of an exploit should never be banned, once the players told or the devs make an announcment anyone who keeps exploiting needs to go.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
If something can be done legitimately ingame (IE no third party, hacking the server or whatever) nobody should be banned, banning players for faulty programming/design is just stupid to me.
This has only been the definition of "exploit" since MMO's started.
When you can do something you know you shouldn't be able to do its called a "bug". This is why they have that little ? thing you can click on to report those. Doing this same action a few times to confirm its something that can be repeated won't get you banned. Doing it for days... hours per day.. is going to get you banned.
Even someone with almost no comprehension of logic should know that you should not be able to spawn infinite loot or obtained infinite credits... for pretty much doing nothing.
How do you think faulty programming gets fixed? Someone discovers it... and reports it.
Once upon a time in Dark Age of Camelot someone discovered that if you deleted certain files... you could walk right into a keep.
One night I was playing on Nimue I believe it was and a message went up that the forces of Albion had captured a relic. This was rather odd because none of us knew there was a relic raid and back then... you needed a very large sieze force to even attempt such a thing. We knew the fort had never been under siege as well...
Well what do you think happened to the person(s) that did that? Oh right they got banned.
You shouldn't be able to delete files off your hard drive and walk through a fortress either. Yet pretty much anyone with the slightest bit of intellegence would know not to do it... or that if they did do it they were going to be banned.
Anyone involved in this should be perma banned. If they are not perma banned... then players do have a right to be pissed at EA/Bioware.
well, considering that there are lots of 13yo kids playing the game, I don't think Bioware would ban them, a warning first, then if the problem persists, ban
Originally posted by Antarious Originally posted by dlld If something can be done legitimately ingame (IE no third party, hacking the server or whatever) nobody should be banned, banning players for faulty programming/design is just stupid to me.
This has only been the definition of "exploit" since MMO's started.
When you can do something you know you shouldn't be able to do its called a "bug". This is why they have that little ? thing you can click on to report those. Doing this same action a few times to confirm its something that can be repeated won't get you banned. Doing it for days... hours per day.. is going to get you banned.
Even someone with almost no comprehension of logic should know that you should not be able to spawn infinite loot or obtained infinite credits... for pretty much doing nothing.
How do you think faulty programming gets fixed? Someone discovers it... and reports it.
Once upon a time in Dark Age of Camelot someone discovered that if you deleted certain files... you could walk right into a keep.
One night I was playing on Nimue I believe it was and a message went up that the forces of Albion had captured a relic. This was rather odd because none of us knew there was a relic raid and back then... you needed a very large sieze force to even attempt such a thing. We knew the fort had never been under siege as well...
Well what do you think happened to the person(s) that did that? Oh right they got banned.
You shouldn't be able to delete files off your hard drive and walk through a fortress either. Yet pretty much anyone with the slightest bit of intellegence would know not to do it... or that if they did do it they were going to be banned.
Anyone involved in this should be perma banned. If they are not perma banned... then players do have a right to be pissed at EA/Bioware. This.
Some people are so mentally blind it is ridiculous. Nothing like people with the mindset of the high schoolers nowadays.
I'm still confused as to how this is an exploit. The game allows factions to reset the loot spawns by capturing an objective? Is that by design or is it a bug? If it's by design, then it seems like this was Bioware's doing by not anticipating that factions would simply work together to reset the spawns--they could've locked Ilum off until a number of players reached 50...like 50% of a server, then dropped in Ilum and let them fight over it. Putting it in when there aren't enough players to keep things honest is their fault and their fault alone.
Truth is, when it comes to pvp based objectives/loot, 100% of participants can agree to "exploit" if they want--afterall this isn't a real war, it's a game (meaning we're not really enemies). They tell us to fight over the loot, we say no thanks, we'll just share. No matter how you dice it--economy breaking or not--in my opinion, banning wasn't the right move, unless it was a bug they were exploiting.
Rift had PvP Rifts that were exploited to hell before they changed it.
It was raids from both factions that were trading captures on stones and anyone that "didn't know" it was an exploit was just trying to turn a blind eye for their own benefit.
It's true, that games should be made so there's no room for exploiting but things happen and MMOs have plethora of things, you know.
Players should use their brains in these kind of situations. If it's too easy, gives too much advantage or is too lucrative it certainly isn't because you're so witty. It's a broken objective in game and I suppose after taking reasonable advantage out of it, the player should report it (I'm no Gandhi, you know :P).
banning someone because they go to a high level area and loot items is a joke, good for them if they can make it through a level 50 area without dying. maybe bioware should look at the bigger problem of static npcs.
well, considering that there are lots of 13yo kids playing the game, I don't think Bioware would ban them, a warning first, then if the problem persists, ban
how do you know lots of 13 year old kids are playing?
It's always funny. Devs fuck up. Customers use current game mechanics. BLAME THE CUSTOMERS Can't let anyone thing that it's the devs fault and loose confidence right? What should happen is "sorry we didn't intend it this way, items will be taken back"
I firmly believe exploiters should not be banned, so long as they are not using third party programs or hacks. If you find an exploit the developer should just take away whatever you gained from using the exploit and then fix the issue. Think of it as free quality control . To basically steal $60 from someone because you designed your game poorly is rediculous. It is a game, nothing that happens in it is important no matter what you may think. It isn't real. The money spent to purchase the game is real.
Developers can't see the forest through the trees. You don't punish people because you design a bad system. You do everything you can to keep your subscribers, because they are the ones who feed you.
can't say i feel too sorry for them being banned really, people who deliberately exploit bugged game mechanics for profit spoil games anyway. fair is as fair does i guess.. like karma. what goes around.. comes around. they cheated and got banned.. imo, anyone who cheats and has the audacity to complain about their treatment when caught.. is living in cloud cuckoo land, theirs an old old saying.. its pretty simple.. if you can't stand the time.. don't do the crime. simples
If something can be done legitimately ingame (IE no third party, hacking the server or whatever) nobody should be banned, banning players for faulty programming/design is just stupid to me.
This has only been the definition of "exploit" since MMO's started.
When you can do something you know you shouldn't be able to do its called a "bug". This is why they have that little ? thing you can click on to report those. Doing this same action a few times to confirm its something that can be repeated won't get you banned. Doing it for days... hours per day.. is going to get you banned.
Even someone with almost no comprehension of logic should know that you should not be able to spawn infinite loot or obtained infinite credits... for pretty much doing nothing.
How do you think faulty programming gets fixed? Someone discovers it... and reports it.
Once upon a time in Dark Age of Camelot someone discovered that if you deleted certain files... you could walk right into a keep.
One night I was playing on Nimue I believe it was and a message went up that the forces of Albion had captured a relic. This was rather odd because none of us knew there was a relic raid and back then... you needed a very large sieze force to even attempt such a thing. We knew the fort had never been under siege as well...
Well what do you think happened to the person(s) that did that? Oh right they got banned.
You shouldn't be able to delete files off your hard drive and walk through a fortress either. Yet pretty much anyone with the slightest bit of intellegence would know not to do it... or that if they did do it they were going to be banned.
Anyone involved in this should be perma banned. If they are not perma banned... then players do have a right to be pissed at EA/Bioware.
Unless there was something those players had to do that was wrong in order to spawn more crates it wasn't an exploit.
Having the opposing side flip the zone is not an exploit, even when there is gear/monetary gain involved. Remember keep trading in WAR? Or AV's where both sides rush the enemies keep while ignoring the enemy? Same thing that is happening there is happening here. Did Blizzard and Mythic ban everyone involved?
Is looting containers that you have the skill level to loot an exploit? No, you worked your tail off to get that high skill level and should be able to utilize it.
The bottomline is that it was a poor mechanic that Bioware put in to incentivize PvP. It backfired on them so now they call exploit. Who didn't see this coming? Anytime there is a direct monetary/gear/etc gain from PvP people will collude with the enemy to obtain it in the fastest most mutually beneficial way.
Until someone can post information on how these people actually exploited mechanics, an example being that in beta if you had multiple people loot a container it would spawn infinite loot, I can't see it being bannable. Sorry, but going to a high level zone that you are allowed to go to, looting boxes you're able to loot, and flipping the point that you're allowed to flip is not an exploit.
Instead fixing the well known bug , EA decided to ban everyone that encountered the bug ?
There is a difference between encountering and exploiting a bug, and the banned player(s) exploited it.
How did they know its a bug ? Maybe it was a feature ?
I mean obviously EA didnt try to fix it, so it can not be bug ?
Whats next?
Players hesatating to kill a boss monster that seems to weak. Cause, maybe its a bug ?
Or fear to loot some exceptionally powerful item that fell from regular mob, because maybe its a bug ?
There is awfully thin and blurry line here , what can be and what can not be done there.
I remember back in the day you in GW1 you could have very high level player run you trough Lornars Pass , landing you in area 20 levels above you. Where you could buy and enjoy all things high lvl players could.
Was it a bug, exploit, or feature placed there to challenge creative thinking out of the box ?
I just know Anet, and infact other companies never banned people because they were playing their game in the way the game was functioning.
Instead fixing the well known bug , EA decided to ban everyone that encountered the bug ?
There is a difference between encountering and exploiting a bug, and the banned player(s) exploited it.
How did they know its a bug ? Maybe it was a feature ?
I mean obviously EA didnt try to fix it, so it can not be bug ?
Whats next?
Players hesatating to kill a boss monster that seems to weak. Cause, maybe its a bug ?
Or fear to loot some exceptionally powerful item that fell from regular mob, because maybe its a bug ?
There is awfully thin and blurry line here , what can be and what can not be done there.
I remember back in the day you in GW1 you could have very high level player run you trough Lornars Pass , landing you in area 20 levels above you. Where you could buy and enjoy all things high lvl players could.
Was it a bug, exploit, or feature placed there to challenge creative thinking out of the box ?
I just know Anet, and infact other companies never banned people because they were playing their game in the way the game was functioning.
If loot is intended as a reward for higher level PvP and you are getting it without being on a higher level or engaging in PvP, then you are exploiting the game. Using a feature of the game in a way it was not intended for your own benefit is exploiting. As the OP pointed out, what the banned player(s) were doing was giving them an unlimited supply of in-game currency. Who could reasonably mistake that for a feature instead of an exploit?
Originally posted by Starwars001 Do not believe a word of those banned players using low level characters going to Iilum , there is an explpit going on for players using low levels to capture a point in pvp and use it to spawn level 50 loot containers instantly, they can keep doing this all day resulting in infinite amount of credits. Those who got banned you deserved it. Dont come here or swtor forums cryin because you attempted to exploit the swtor economy. No pity for you guys. Those banned player attempted to capture a node usiong lwo low level toons to instant spawn loot containers, creating infinite credits for low level toons in Iilum.
As a swtor player, im glad bioware caught you guys no pity for you cheaters before the economy was being killed by cheaters.
As it happens in all mmos with these patehtic cheaters i somehow realy believe your telling the truth. And if players realy exploit this they should be banned for LIFE.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
As the OP pointed out, what the banned player(s) were doing was giving them an unlimited supply of in-game currency. Who could reasonably mistake that for a feature instead of an exploit?
Sorry but "unlimited supply" is getting exploited in every mmo by an activity called "grinding mobs" . So that statement alone does not tell anything. What would matter is if they have crashed ingame markets with it?
Instead fixing the well known bug , EA decided to ban everyone that encountered the bug ?
There is a difference between encountering and exploiting a bug, and the banned player(s) exploited it.
How did they know its a bug ? Maybe it was a feature ?
I mean obviously EA didnt try to fix it, so it can not be bug ?
Whats next?
Players hesatating to kill a boss monster that seems to weak. Cause, maybe its a bug ?
Or fear to loot some exceptionally powerful item that fell from regular mob, because maybe its a bug ?
There is awfully thin and blurry line here , what can be and what can not be done there.
I remember back in the day you in GW1 you could have very high level player run you trough Lornars Pass , landing you in area 20 levels above you. Where you could buy and enjoy all things high lvl players could.
Was it a bug, exploit, or feature placed there to challenge creative thinking out of the box ?
I just know Anet, and infact other companies never banned people because they were playing their game in the way the game was functioning.
If loot is intended as a reward for higher level PvP and you are getting it without being on a higher level or engaging in PvP, then you are exploiting the game. Using a feature of the game in a way it was not intended for your own benefit is exploiting. As the OP pointed out, what the banned player(s) were doing was giving them an unlimited supply of in-game currency. Who could reasonably mistake that for a feature instead of an exploit?
You've actually pointed out the flaw from the get-go...If it's only meant for a certain group, then they'd have to put in mechanics to accomplish the desired result. For instance, if PVP is mandatory to "flip" these zones, then players should be on "auto-attack" mode when it comes to other players of opposing factions...this forces PVP, Otherwise a large group of "enemy" factions are not obligated to PVP at all, they could stand around doing emotes at each other. Again, and this has been repeated so many times...why were the containers lootable for someone that shouldn't be able to loot them? It's not a bug to get something beyond your level because I can buy stuff from a vendor, or even find loot from random mobs that's out of my level.
This is what some of us suspect is happening here: Bioware designed it to work this way because they thought it would incentivize players to PVP on Ilum. They didn't realize that players have no real incentive to PVP except for bragging rights or roleplay--it's a game afterall, not a real war--in other words, it's a choice we make. There have been plenty of times I've come across imps and didn't attack them, even though I could have. If they wanted mandatory PVP with no chance of cooperation, they'd make us auto-attack within a certain range of each other. So since PVP is voluntary, you can't exploit NOT PVPing.
Yea I need links to both exploiting and people doing what the complainers claim to have been doing like getting banned for just visiting the place and having fun there, I'd like to seee a link to the video of these things.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Comments
No it isnt like saying "killing is wrong etc etc". Real life analogies for things like this are bad enough but this one doesnt even make much sense. Being banned in a game can never be compared to murder and capital punishment.
I do not have much sympathy for the exploiters though, if the where warned about using the bug but kept on anyway they deserve a ban. Anyone that accidently makes use of an exploit should never be banned, once the players told or the devs make an announcment anyone who keeps exploiting needs to go.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
it is in the term of service of all game!saying the player dont know isnt an excuse!and i bet the case was reviewed torougly before banning him
They should ban the Devs for not fixing this in the first place!
This has only been the definition of "exploit" since MMO's started.
When you can do something you know you shouldn't be able to do its called a "bug". This is why they have that little ? thing you can click on to report those. Doing this same action a few times to confirm its something that can be repeated won't get you banned. Doing it for days... hours per day.. is going to get you banned.
Even someone with almost no comprehension of logic should know that you should not be able to spawn infinite loot or obtained infinite credits... for pretty much doing nothing.
How do you think faulty programming gets fixed? Someone discovers it... and reports it.
Once upon a time in Dark Age of Camelot someone discovered that if you deleted certain files... you could walk right into a keep.
One night I was playing on Nimue I believe it was and a message went up that the forces of Albion had captured a relic. This was rather odd because none of us knew there was a relic raid and back then... you needed a very large sieze force to even attempt such a thing. We knew the fort had never been under siege as well...
Well what do you think happened to the person(s) that did that? Oh right they got banned.
You shouldn't be able to delete files off your hard drive and walk through a fortress either. Yet pretty much anyone with the slightest bit of intellegence would know not to do it... or that if they did do it they were going to be banned.
Anyone involved in this should be perma banned. If they are not perma banned... then players do have a right to be pissed at EA/Bioware.
well, considering that there are lots of 13yo kids playing the game, I don't think Bioware would ban them, a warning first, then if the problem persists, ban
This has only been the definition of "exploit" since MMO's started.
When you can do something you know you shouldn't be able to do its called a "bug". This is why they have that little ? thing you can click on to report those. Doing this same action a few times to confirm its something that can be repeated won't get you banned. Doing it for days... hours per day.. is going to get you banned.
Even someone with almost no comprehension of logic should know that you should not be able to spawn infinite loot or obtained infinite credits... for pretty much doing nothing.
How do you think faulty programming gets fixed? Someone discovers it... and reports it.
Once upon a time in Dark Age of Camelot someone discovered that if you deleted certain files... you could walk right into a keep.
One night I was playing on Nimue I believe it was and a message went up that the forces of Albion had captured a relic. This was rather odd because none of us knew there was a relic raid and back then... you needed a very large sieze force to even attempt such a thing. We knew the fort had never been under siege as well...
Well what do you think happened to the person(s) that did that? Oh right they got banned.
You shouldn't be able to delete files off your hard drive and walk through a fortress either. Yet pretty much anyone with the slightest bit of intellegence would know not to do it... or that if they did do it they were going to be banned.
Anyone involved in this should be perma banned. If they are not perma banned... then players do have a right to be pissed at EA/Bioware.
This.
Some people are so mentally blind it is ridiculous. Nothing like people with the mindset of the high schoolers nowadays.
Rift had PvP Rifts that were exploited to hell before they changed it.
It was raids from both factions that were trading captures on stones and anyone that "didn't know" it was an exploit was just trying to turn a blind eye for their own benefit.
It's true, that games should be made so there's no room for exploiting but things happen and MMOs have plethora of things, you know.
Players should use their brains in these kind of situations. If it's too easy, gives too much advantage or is too lucrative it certainly isn't because you're so witty. It's a broken objective in game and I suppose after taking reasonable advantage out of it, the player should report it (I'm no Gandhi, you know :P).
banning someone because they go to a high level area and loot items is a joke, good for them if they can make it through a level 50 area without dying. maybe bioware should look at the bigger problem of static npcs.
how do you know lots of 13 year old kids are playing?
Lol, best ever Bioware, best ever.
So wait....
Instead fixing the well known bug , EA decided to ban everyone that encountered the bug ?
Can't let anyone thing that it's the devs fault and loose confidence right?
What should happen is "sorry we didn't intend it this way, items will be taken back"
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I firmly believe exploiters should not be banned, so long as they are not using third party programs or hacks. If you find an exploit the developer should just take away whatever you gained from using the exploit and then fix the issue. Think of it as free quality control . To basically steal $60 from someone because you designed your game poorly is rediculous. It is a game, nothing that happens in it is important no matter what you may think. It isn't real. The money spent to purchase the game is real.
Developers can't see the forest through the trees. You don't punish people because you design a bad system. You do everything you can to keep your subscribers, because they are the ones who feed you.
There is a difference between encountering and exploiting a bug, and the banned player(s) exploited it.
can't say i feel too sorry for them being banned really, people who deliberately exploit bugged game mechanics for profit spoil games anyway. fair is as fair does i guess.. like karma. what goes around.. comes around. they cheated and got banned.. imo, anyone who cheats and has the audacity to complain about their treatment when caught.. is living in cloud cuckoo land, theirs an old old saying.. its pretty simple.. if you can't stand the time.. don't do the crime. simples
Good, I m glad they are.
Unless there was something those players had to do that was wrong in order to spawn more crates it wasn't an exploit.
Having the opposing side flip the zone is not an exploit, even when there is gear/monetary gain involved. Remember keep trading in WAR? Or AV's where both sides rush the enemies keep while ignoring the enemy? Same thing that is happening there is happening here. Did Blizzard and Mythic ban everyone involved?
Is looting containers that you have the skill level to loot an exploit? No, you worked your tail off to get that high skill level and should be able to utilize it.
The bottomline is that it was a poor mechanic that Bioware put in to incentivize PvP. It backfired on them so now they call exploit. Who didn't see this coming? Anytime there is a direct monetary/gear/etc gain from PvP people will collude with the enemy to obtain it in the fastest most mutually beneficial way.
Until someone can post information on how these people actually exploited mechanics, an example being that in beta if you had multiple people loot a container it would spawn infinite loot, I can't see it being bannable. Sorry, but going to a high level zone that you are allowed to go to, looting boxes you're able to loot, and flipping the point that you're allowed to flip is not an exploit.
How did they know its a bug ? Maybe it was a feature ?
I mean obviously EA didnt try to fix it, so it can not be bug ?
Whats next?
Players hesatating to kill a boss monster that seems to weak. Cause, maybe its a bug ?
Or fear to loot some exceptionally powerful item that fell from regular mob, because maybe its a bug ?
There is awfully thin and blurry line here , what can be and what can not be done there.
I remember back in the day you in GW1 you could have very high level player run you trough Lornars Pass , landing you in area 20 levels above you. Where you could buy and enjoy all things high lvl players could.
Was it a bug, exploit, or feature placed there to challenge creative thinking out of the box ?
I just know Anet, and infact other companies never banned people because they were playing their game in the way the game was functioning.
If loot is intended as a reward for higher level PvP and you are getting it without being on a higher level or engaging in PvP, then you are exploiting the game. Using a feature of the game in a way it was not intended for your own benefit is exploiting. As the OP pointed out, what the banned player(s) were doing was giving them an unlimited supply of in-game currency. Who could reasonably mistake that for a feature instead of an exploit?
As it happens in all mmos with these patehtic cheaters i somehow realy believe your telling the truth. And if players realy exploit this they should be banned for LIFE.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Sorry but "unlimited supply" is getting exploited in every mmo by an activity called "grinding mobs" . So that statement alone does not tell anything. What would matter is if they have crashed ingame markets with it?
Pi*1337/100 = 42
You've actually pointed out the flaw from the get-go...If it's only meant for a certain group, then they'd have to put in mechanics to accomplish the desired result. For instance, if PVP is mandatory to "flip" these zones, then players should be on "auto-attack" mode when it comes to other players of opposing factions...this forces PVP, Otherwise a large group of "enemy" factions are not obligated to PVP at all, they could stand around doing emotes at each other. Again, and this has been repeated so many times...why were the containers lootable for someone that shouldn't be able to loot them? It's not a bug to get something beyond your level because I can buy stuff from a vendor, or even find loot from random mobs that's out of my level.
This is what some of us suspect is happening here: Bioware designed it to work this way because they thought it would incentivize players to PVP on Ilum. They didn't realize that players have no real incentive to PVP except for bragging rights or roleplay--it's a game afterall, not a real war--in other words, it's a choice we make. There have been plenty of times I've come across imps and didn't attack them, even though I could have. If they wanted mandatory PVP with no chance of cooperation, they'd make us auto-attack within a certain range of each other. So since PVP is voluntary, you can't exploit NOT PVPing.
any links?
Yea I need links to both exploiting and people doing what the complainers claim to have been doing like getting banned for just visiting the place and having fun there, I'd like to seee a link to the video of these things.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.