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Sandbox Subforum
Cuathon
Member Posts: 2,211
I think it would be really useful for there to be a sandbox subforum. That way we could have somewhere to go where we wouldn't have to argue and derail every single thread because of themeparkers. We could actually have useful meaningful discussions about Sandbox games without someone bringing up WoW every 5 seconds. 90% of posts in the pub involve WoW and how games like Diablo and GW are MMORPGs instead of just assigning the proper title of LBCORPG or lobby based co op rpg.
Derails are common on every forum and many times staff takes simple steps to prevent derails from walling off interesting discussion. It shouldn't be too difficult to add one more subforum to this site. I am sure most sandbox fans would agree not to pollute general forums with sandbox vs themepark drama if we could have our own forum where no themepark rulez! derails were allowed.
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the word 'sandbox' is just a word to describe what every game in the market is not. it allows gamers to complain easier. ask them to talk about what 'sandbox' is rather than what its not could be pretty intresting though
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/signed
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
The problem is that people have a hard time agreeing on what is a sandbox and what isn't. I can already see the sandbox subforum being filled with posts about Vanguard, EverQuest II, and some other themepark games that aren't quite pure theme park.
I think that the reason that type of discussion doesn't happen is that its always derailed. If we ever get a sandbox subforum I have about a dozen threads I have wanted to post that contain some fun topics but I refuse to have them ruined by TPvSB drama like they would in pub.
Also I think the subforum should be in general discussion because we can see from dev forums how active non GD forums are.
But at least it would be sandbox fans arguing in good faith as opposed to the trolling and discussed to death types of responses we get in GD.
I think we could define EQ1 as the first themepark and make a subforum rule that EQ/VG sandbox or not discussions should be kicked back to the pub.
I am sure we will still have drama, but I can't imagine it being worse than it currently is.
I think people would just argue about what they see is or is not a sandbox and the word itself is leaves a lot open.
Classic example, the gaming industry itself once called GTA 3 a 'sandbox' well in my mind its everything a sandbox is not. Requiring people to do quests so that you can travel to the other half of the map and then call that a sandbox is insulting.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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By creating a sub-forum focused just on sandboxes you are in fact reaffirming the belief of the theme park'ers that sandbox is a niche. We already have a, "Theme Park VS Sandbox Thread". Any thread made in that forum would be derailed by theme park fanbois.
On the other hand, I think the Developers Corner section should be merged and added as a subforum of the Pub.
I wonder who voted no, not to trash them but just because I don't think there are any negative effects of this so I can't think of a reason not to do it.
Sean, I think that as we have seen with the term mmorpg itself lots of people have different beliefs about different jargon. I think we could make some stickies for common topics like, what is a sandbox. Then all those posts would be contained within that thread. Well to some degree.
I wouldn't really call GTA a sandbox, but I can understand why some people would.
I think we could have a really interesting discussion with only self identified sandboxers on what constitutes a sandbox. I am somewhat concerned that certain people would butt into the sandbox forums with the intention of trolling though I won't name any names. I think it would be really interesting to have, in either the open sandbox forum or some special sub forums, moderated communities. So we could vote out people who looked like trolls or something, but I suspect mmorpg.com staff would not agree to that, and its pretty understandable that they wouldn't.
I don't think it is needed. Every game has it's own subforum and that's enough..
Of course, i'm not against it either, if people want it.
And we don't all agree on what exactly a sandbox is.
That was my primary fear that themeparkers would troll the sandbox forum.
I don't think we are ever going to convince certain themeparkers that sandboxes have a place in MMOs. So trying to chang their opinions seems like a waste of time and not something we should seriously worry about. People have mostly made up their minds so even if it furthers their belief that SB is a niche, it won't have any real effect on us because when you add 1million to infinity its still infinity.
I think what will happen is sanbox forum would be created and someone would post 'so how about GTA as a sandbox' or something to that effect. then someone like me would post (and this is true by the way) 'out of all the games I have ever played in my life GTA is the fartherist from a sandbox that I have EVER experienced outside of sonic the hedgehog, we really shouldnt even bring that game up in the conversation except as an example of what is not a sandbox' then the fights woudl start.
Sorry for my rant I am a bit bitter on both the gaming industry and gamers themselves. I need to tone it down a notch
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Well it looks like this whole discussion is academic. The poll went from 5/1 for yes to like 5/7 for no and most people didn't even bother to post a reason. Personally I suspect the themeparkers are already trolling sandboxers by spamming the poll with no votes.
Depending on what you want to talk about regarding sandbox games, there's a forum for the topic. If it's game design, then the Developer's Corner. Ifit's about the sandbox MMOs, then Pub is fine. If the request is a place where people can say "go back to the WOW forums" to anyone who diagrees with any number of the 'true sandbox' concepts, then such a forum is a bad idea altogether unless one is simply looking for a way to funnel the elitist pricks into one forum and out of the general populace. If that's the case, I'm all for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well you can call us elitist pricks, and we will call you populist philistines :P
Either way I think it will remove much of the sandbox themepark drama.
You are actually on my list of posters who argue in good faith even if you disagree with me, I would probably not tell you to go back to the WoW forums
I would love as one poster suggested for the dev forums to be moved to become a sub forum of general discussion. But I would still like a sandbox forum too.
Edit: The yes votes are winning again!
I voted no and I'll tell you why:
I consider myself a sand-box supporter. Like many here, I am fatigued at the endless look-alike themepark games being released. However, like many here have said, there is no consensus as to what constitues a "true" sand-box gave. Unlike many here, I don't think that is a bad thing. I think any discussion that includes the term sand-box is healthy for our beloved genre. It is a discussion that should happen front-and-center and not tucked away in some nitche to be avoided by the masses.
Anyways, that is my rambling as to why I voted no. Not very coherent but neither am I.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
*posts retort of vehement disagreement*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
and when its all said and done the industry will just read the forum, use the term 'sandbox' to call their themeparks just to pull us in anyway...so...
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Well I disagree because I feel like sandbox threads are bogged down in the pub, but I think you made a good case, and I agree that there will probably be a continuum of elitism about what is really a sandbox game. We could still talk about sandboxes in the pub, but also have a sandbox only space. I don't want to compare sandboxers to oppressed groups, but I think the general idea of the Safe Spaces concept is useful for all sorts of contentious topics.
No, because if there was a sandbox-only sub-forum all of the threads discussing sandboxes in this forum would be relocated to the sub-forum.
That is why the discussion is among the fans of the genre and not the suits that run the studios. I mean really, does anyone that frequents gamings sites really buy into the hype? It is our responsability to be informed consumers; it is the studios responsability to spin and distort... it is called marketing. Caveat Emptor.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Well people talk about SWTOR in the main forum and it has its own set of subforums. So I don't think that is valid.
I'm with kakasaki in this one. The first time I heard about sandbox games was in this site, in a pub discussion. Because of this I played some sandbox games, and now I am a big sandbox supporter (although I also play and enjoy some thempark games).
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
That reminds me. I recall learning about Darkfall here on this site first. It completely burned my assumption that only the large companies with plenty of money to spend on adds could make a good game. I never went back to my old site (gamespot) after playing darkfall. RADICALLY different MMO gaming experience (in a good way) for me.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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But will we really be giving that up with a subforum? People will still reference games in the pub just like they do with games that have their own personal forum. A lot of times I posted design discussions for my game in the main forum even though we have the dev corner.
Well, creating a subforum can be a way to isolate most sandbox related threads there, and the new people who don't know what a sandbox mmorpg is might not bother looking at that subforum.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran