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If the AAA developers can't even make a Good THEMEPARK MMO, what makes you think that they can make
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
The community here are MMORPG.com, the voice of the MMO gaming community, seems to rage over the so called "lack of sandbox support" from developers, and the more THEMEPARK focused development over the last few years.
Well something I notice, thanks to a few forumers here, is that most SANDBOX MMO are never innovating at all. Innovation doesn't seem to be as big of a topic as it is from the THEMEPARK community, because they are use to the idea of these games can be different. THEMEPARK fans want innovation, and SANDBOX fans want the opposite of innovation.
Well going by the community here's though on AAA themepark developers, they sure seem to lack innovation. Doesn't that kinda fit into what the Sandbox community wants?
would that mean that these AAA Themepark developers can make good sandbox MMO?
But on the flip side of things. Sandbox design seem much harder to successfully pull off unless you a developer that know what they are doing in the design. Which may be why so many Sandbox MMO aren't pleasing the community here which cry out for them.
Well these AAA developers, which seem to have a record of making poor Themepark MMO.
Wouldn't they likely fail as well if they try their hands at a harder project such as a SANDBOX MMORPG?
What's your thoughts?
Well something I notice, thanks to a few forumers here, is that most SANDBOX MMO are never innovating at all. Innovation doesn't seem to be as big of a topic as it is from the THEMEPARK community, because they are use to the idea of these games can be different. THEMEPARK fans want innovation, and SANDBOX fans want the opposite of innovation.
Well going by the community here's though on AAA themepark developers, they sure seem to lack innovation. Doesn't that kinda fit into what the Sandbox community wants?
would that mean that these AAA Themepark developers can make good sandbox MMO?
But on the flip side of things. Sandbox design seem much harder to successfully pull off unless you a developer that know what they are doing in the design. Which may be why so many Sandbox MMO aren't pleasing the community here which cry out for them.
Well these AAA developers, which seem to have a record of making poor Themepark MMO.
Wouldn't they likely fail as well if they try their hands at a harder project such as a SANDBOX MMORPG?
What's your thoughts?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Many MO devs will mess up whatever they make, that is true.
But someone will eventually get it right and that goes for both types of games.
i think the ones who should be making sandbox mmos are the guys behind sandbox single player games. Bethesda for example. Leave themepark for TP devs. Leave sandbox for SB devs.
Iam not even sure Bethesda can make a MRPG, let alone a MMORPG. :-PPhilosophy of MMO Game Design
i for one wouldnt want a AAA comp to make a mmorpg...but some get lost in whats AAA and whats not...i mean mostly everyone that is "labled" AAA has prolly worked with or under a huge company here or there and then blown up saying they are great cuz they worked for this or that AAA company
but as iv said in another post..the begining of last year and this year will be the year EA loads their pocket up with cash as they cash in the "easy money" of mmorpg gaming..look for all their titles being loaded with the same buggy and non-attention of addressing what needs to be fixed just to pump out game after game to make a quick buck..people need to stop paying money to these so called AAA companys / fat cats that seem to think they run the block and let them fall flat on their face and gtfo of mmorpg gaming..leave it up to the people that know what they are doing and be creative and not to be in it just for the quick buck...the whole genra has gone to rubbish.
No devs (AAA or not) will ever make a perfect mmo that pleases everyone. Basically these games need to cater to the lowest common denominator to appeal to the widest possible audience or sub numbers will suffer too much to be profitable and support continued content development. Its funny, in their attempts to please everyone they end up pleasing no one
The games that don't cater to the lowest common denominator don't have the budget to make a compelling polished final product.
That's not really true. Every AAA company listens to the needs of the community. I think we are the minority of that community that wants overhauls of mmorpgs than just adjustments. The new mmorpg players that are not burned out with the ordinary themepark game are the ones that are milking the cows most, but also the ones that are old gamers and believe that the game is better in a few months and in turn has spent some money on it through the years due to few selection for old gamers.
It's not "we" against "them", it's "us" against "us". We need to tell our buddies what kind of piece of shit they're playing if even they will listen to us, which I doubt they will. So until then, we need to wait for more gamers to grow up so we become a larger community and our voices be heard that can crack windows.
Sandbox MMOs don't require things like "plot" or "dungeons" or even a balanced combat system, many of the things developers have trouble with when designing a themepark MMO. The main limitation for sandbox titles is hardware based, as it requires a staggering amount of network and server power to update the environment on the fly. I feel like as technology improves developers will start treating 3D sandbox titles as more of an option again, and yes, they will be fairly decent at it.
So tired of themepark WoW-like mmorpg's that I will take sandbox , sandpark anyway.
You know I am NOT playing ANY mmorpg atm cause I am ultimatelly tired and bored of them.
If they fail doing sandbox - well I don't lose anything. I have status quo - I just still don't play anything
If they succedd I have mmorpg's to play
But there are good themeparks out there?
WOW? LOTR? Even SWTOR is a 'good' themepark for very casual players who want to be told a story.
I think a good sanbox would need more solid ideas/concepts than money anyway.
But I see no reason why a well thought out sandnbox from a good developer would not work.
It needs a third option, "depends on who the developer is".
But no, I don't have a lot of confidence in these silly MMO companies. You could put monkies in charge and they'd probably do a better job.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Define what you mean by "good".
Many people feel SWTOR is a good MMORPG, I tend to agree with them. (Not a great MMO mind you, but certainly good)
Many will argue that right now LOTRO, AOC, and some others are good MMORPG's. They might not have been so at launch, or perhaps along the way they've made changes to spoil the gameplay (a common mistake) but overall, they're pretty solid titles now even if early mistakes ruined their chances at financial greatness.
I doubt anyone will ever build another WOW, which while very popular during its run, and always a good game, was not perfect.
So yes, I think a AAA house could make a good sandbox if they can convince their investors to let them have a bit more creative freedom than is usually permitted in the current development environment.
Remember, while many MMORPG's will be built, only a handfull will ever be considered legendary or groundbreaking over the course of the years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not believe that any themepark head designers could make a good sandbox.
Possible? Yes. Likely? No.
I like EVE Online's development, even enough to sub now and again. Defititely sandbox.
I don't think any AAA dev is sufficiently in touch with the potential market for sandbox to produce one. An Indie developed by hardcore sandbox players is more likely to produce something on target with market demand.
Unfortunately, the potential for an Indie to produce a quality game tends to be thwarted by lack of financing, limited existing engines designed to support sandbox play, and dare I say lack of professional management (no insult intended) capable of bringing a solid project to completion.
Will we ever see a solid sandbox? I think so. It's just going to take a while for the right team to hit the right formula.
Whether or not the MMORPG playerbase will accept it is another matter. "Why can't I find my quest hub?" "This game is total suxors, there's nothing to do" *sigh*
Eh, ToR was a good themepark. Not a great one, and it has some flaws (grouping and uninteresting mob abilities,) but certainly a good one.
To embrace world simulation (sandbox) would be to create a game almost nobody wants. Certainly it wouldn't have fit with Star Wars (as others often state: do you play a Star Wars videogame to be Uncle Owen, or to be one of the main characters?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It would probably be just as bad, if not worse...
Han was a smuggler, Leia was a diplomat, Luke was a farmer's kid. Say what? Do you mean: "To be one of the main characters within the very short timeframe of the movie after which they went back to more regular business that would bore all of you out of your fucking minds?"
Well sandboxes are more about systems creation and exposing those systems to players. Much easier to draw up a game with sandbox systems and allow players to create content/shape the game and grow with it than to spend 200 million dollars generating a linear content grind. Then devs can just add more sandbox systems over time instead of having to develop more land and content constantly to pin on to the end of the game.
A AAA sandbox could be developed in half the time with half the investment and then grow with players.
1. Which Star Wars characters do you think people actually want to be like?
2. What do those people actually do (ie farming vs. fighting) throughout the film?
People want a game about that. And "that" happens to be lightsaber fighting, blaster shooting, and spaceship flying.
This should be obvious.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I would say that an AAA developer is more than capable of making a "good" themepark or sandbox MMO. The question that should be asked is whether an AAA developer is capable of making a "good" MMO that is fairly polished AT release. A lot of the issues on these forums are with people who want to play an MMO at day 1, get into that game at day 1 and then are upset because the quality of the game is not what they would expect (or content at higher levels is nowhere to be seen).
I think with enough development cycles post-release most of the MMO developers eventually get their game right, but going back to games months after release is almost taboo in this industry. People want to get in at ground zero. And that is one of the major problems with MMO developers versus their single player counterparts. Someone can pick up Skyrim a year from now and have a great experience with the game, but someone picking up SWTOR a year after release? I'm not sure it has the same draw as when its fresh.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Right, thats why SWG, a Star Wars simulator, had such a terrible fanbase that QUIT after SOE put THEMEPARK elements into their Sandbox.
Thats why Pre CU/NGE SWG has little to no fanbase....I mean, even though theres a forum dedicated to them on here, it doesnt really mean anything.
Right, thats why Minecraft (a sandbox) has what, 10 million players? Lol.
This whole thinking along the lines "no one likes sandbox!" has got to go. Its juvenile and archaic. It might have been the popular line of thinking in 07-08, but its 2012 now. Get with the times - we have seen themepark after themepark tank.
And lets face it - TOR isnt really an MMO. Its a Diablo II-esque single player RPG with co-op thrown in. Its all instanced. All they need to do is throw in a lobby. Sure, TOR is a good game, but its not really an MMO.
Every niche has people to be catered to. Its not different for the sandbox crowd. Runescape did phenomenally well, and it was a sandbox started by some kid in his basement that became one of the most successful MMOs and video games of all time.
OP: I dont think you understand what sandboxers want. Its not that they dont like innovation.
Let me give you an example of a sandbox that many people on here hate, Mortal Online. In order to max or regain your characters health or mana reserves, you need to eat food and sleep. That is an innovative system. You take wheat that you picked place it on a grinder to make flour. Go to an oven add meat (from something you killed) along with a vegetable you may have picked and viola you have 'pot pie'. A recipe window doesnt 'tell' you what you will make. Or you wont get a quest to go sleep. You will see your health and notice your reserves are gone and you will sleep, cook, eat.
So that what a sandboxer may call an innovative system.
Just because we dont want a window that pops up and autogroups us together and ports us to the spidercave doesnt mean we dont want innovation. We want to have the weather effect us. Making us want to craft clothes we got from killing deer and skinning them. And wear those clothes so weather wont affect us so much. We want to construct big houses that our guildies can be safe in. We want to have to gather wood, stone, nails, granite; to do so.
making a satisfying sandbox mmo is in theory easier than making a satisfying themepark.
themepark: you must create content, story, limit player interaction in order to achieve a desired state for the game (status quo in the gamw?). you must then create an economy based on a limited crafting system that cannot beat loot items. (the epic boss has a weapon that can only be surpassed by a more epic boss, if crafters can all make this epic weapon... he wont be as special). the PvP must then be designed around a lose non loyalty feature, people do not have a reason to PvP. so the Devs then create a reward system, which in turn competes with crafting and PvE loot.
Sandbox: create minimal story for the game and it's content (implying you create content). make the world completely controlable, therefore we add territorial conflicts (much as in RL), make PvE loot equivakent to Crafted loot and remove any PvP reward system (other than the puire satisfaction). a real sandbox can indeed keep levels (levels are in real life in one way or the other i.e. the more you study the more you know). sandbox has the option to create procedual generated content, as there is no status quo to maintain.
ofcourse, this are all my ideas and opinions and not facts.