Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.
People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.
It hasn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.
People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.
It hasn't.
Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey. It feels like a drive to work and back home again. Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.
Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.
"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.
"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.
What did they fail to do? Capture WoW numbers? Failed? Those games you list are still around and still being played by folks who actaully enjoy them. Even Vangaurd is still around.
I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game
No. Copying WoW has killed so many games.
Copying WoW is not what hurt games like Aion, Rift, AoC and SWTOR. It is the fact that they "tried to copy" WoW and failed meserably at it. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times more, it is not that these games copied WoW, it is that they tried - if you are going to copy WoW, you have to do it "as good" or "better" than WoW. Across the board...not just partially or half-arsed. That is why these other games are not as successful and why they continue to not be as successful as WoW. They are not doing it as good or better.
No, that is completely wrong.
First off, Blizzard fans swoon over anything Blizzard puts out. Now the same can be said about, oh let's say Star Wars, but with one key difference. SW fan != computer user or gamer. Blizzard fan = computer user AND gamer.
Secondly, WoW essentially made MMOs accessible to the masses via instant gratification. Before WoW, getting to max level in a MMO meant something; after WoW, not a single f was given. They then disguised the typical MMO level grind as 'end game' and made the never ending treadmill of end game gear. In essence you're doing the same thing, just one is a level number while the other is the gear your wearing. Funny note, previous to WoW games had more depth in this respect as they had endgame as well.
Third, the perfect storm. WoW is an anomaly to MMOs because of this. Even their fabled Titan won't have as great success. Greedy CEOs don't know this though. They see $_$ and have at it. It's not about them 'failing to capture lightning in a bottle' as there is no real lightning to be caught, only deception and fanism.
Fourth, unwashed masses(so to speak). WoW brought in way too many new people into the MMO genre, essentially changing the MMO community... FOR THE WORST. On top of this, these new players have no idea about MMOs as they think WoW is unique and creative when that's furthest from the truth. But don't try to tell them that because they won't have any of it. WoW will always be the first and last MMO ever to them.
Fifth, the ravenous community facilitated by WoW. I've never seen people blitz through MMOs until after WoW came out. Now ever game since is being blitz through, coincidence?
...and lastly... before you argue success = quality or worth or w/e, I have one word and sequential number following it for you: MADDEN. Nuff said.
So if you want to blindly say WoW success has nothing to do with these MMOs, is not to blame and was a quality MMO while the new ones are not(in post-WoW MMO terms) then I'll happily sit back, see you for who you are and yell at those darn kids to get off my dang lawn.
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.
"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.
Yep, they are either on life support or have gone f2p.
Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.
People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.
It hasn't.
Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey. It feels like a drive to work and back home again. Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.
As long as we're not trying to pretend earlier MMORPGs were somehow better, I totally agree with that statement.
Early MMORPGs were a drive to work with endless mob-grinding long before you reached endgame. Despite newer MMORPGs being way better than that, they could obviously stand to be changed in ways that make them interesting for longer. The same could be said of any game, really.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.
"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.
What did they fail to do? Capture WoW numbers? Failed? Those games you list are still around and still being played by folks who actaully enjoy them. Even Vangaurd is still around.
/facepalm
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
You do realize that MMORPGs live and die within the first month or two, right? The track record is all there with some contenders over the years.
As for instanced, redundant PvP, that's a trend with the newer MMORPGs now, and a direction I don't like. Older titles allowed PvP in the same world as everyone else. RvR included with some. You could make a push with your buddies / guildmates to stir some trouble up in or near an establishment well known for the control by the enemy. Or you could roam the countryside looking for trouble. Or you could hit a smaller but still-enemy held area. Or you could provide security against enemy PvPers in a friendly held area that is well known to be hit by the enemy. Or you go to a smaller, friendly held area, just in case it does get attacked by the enemy.
I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting. Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth. Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city. On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction. The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.
Get my drift? That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.
But instanced PvP is the worst. You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME. There is no variety except for some of the player names involved. When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.
God I miss SWG when I read stuff like that, "raiding" AH was awesome, SWG is my personal #1 when it comes to pvp, stuff like BH hunting Jedi's, with a bunch of TKA's backing you up, chasing them for some time, finding the bastard and hoping that the small time window you'd have to lock him down and beat him up, like he just grabbed your gf on the arse in a club was super exciting, sometimes you and your crew would get him on the first hit, and sometimes the bugger would forcerun away and head to his guild town asap with you chasing him down, heck we once spend 7 hours killing a jedi, which ended in a huge fight at "his" town against his guild, that day just went by as if it were 1 hour, great stuff.
Regarding SWTOR, I bought it because it had the Star wars label, I've never played any Bioware game before tbh, but was hoping for just a wee bit of star wars magic, even though I realised that it werent and never would be like SWG, my opion about it?
What a horrible excuse for a mmo, seriously, I'll admit I played WoW at launch and actually enjoyed it for some years, it HAD a good balance of not beeing too Theme parkish for me, world pvp would happen and server communities were somwhat close (you'd usually know who were beating you up)
So what went wrong? Instead of experimenting with more sandbox in their game, they obviously wanted new people to try out mmo's, and went down the disaster route of turning into an extremely linear RPG wannbe game, and what happens next? other devs look at wow and envy their succes, so they copy them, not realising that WoW are loosing subs after they released the disaster that was Cata, it's as if they just need to throw in some pvp vendors and bg's, and then a few raids and tokens to buy gear for, and that's it, wtf?
And people call that content? It's not content, it's mindless grinding, I'd rather grind out a character killing the same 10 mobs for 2 months (yes, sprta SWG style), and have actual content when I finally reach the max level, than be fooled with the usual instanced pvp/ instanced raid BS.
Remember sitting Krayt hunting? I'd take that any day over some weird raid where you feel like you're part of some dancing crew who gotta perform an exact action at a specific time to be successful, it's mindblowing that this kind of "content" is still labeled as content be actual mmo players.
I play mmo's to live in a virtual world, not to follow the red line from level 1-50 and then run a treadmill.
WAR was, if possible, better than SWTOR imo, I had superhigh hopes for SWTOR, but seeing how far they took theme park kinda surprised me, never thought anyone would turn it into a ride in a theme park.
Yes, lets blame everyone but the game company that made the game. SWTOR is not the game it is becuase of Biowares design decisions, this is all Blizzards and Trions fault.
But the ultimate message being sent is that its not ok for Bioware to have a lousy product, but its fine for Blizzard and Trion. Trion, more than any other AAA MMORPG, said 'we dont give a gnoll's ass about our journey, we know endgame is what you really want'.
When you want to get weeds out of your garden do you snip the top off? No you pull it out from its roots.
Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.
People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.
It hasn't.
Doing laps around the block is not a journey. Thats what WoW, Rift and SWToR are all about now. And to make matters worse, that block used to have many, many roads that led to it. All the roads have been closed but one or two now.
Doing laps around the block is not a journey. Thats what WoW, Rift and SWToR are all about now. And to make matters worse, that block used to have many, many roads that led to it. All the roads have been closed but one or two now.
In my experience with early MMORPGs, all those roads were merely endless mob-grind and vastly less interesting a journey than the activities I do in a well-made modern endgame.
It's all still journey though, whether you pretend it isn't or not. Journey is gameplay, and MMORPGs clearly offer gameplay at endgame. As long as it keeps throwing interesting things at you, you keep journeying.
It's only when you reach best-in-slot everything that the journey really ends. The journey may be less interesting if you have to grind a lot but, well...early MMORPGs are guiltier than most MMORPGs of that particular gameplay sin.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.
People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.
It hasn't.
Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey. It feels like a drive to work and back home again. Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.
As long as we're not trying to pretend earlier MMORPGs were somehow better, I totally agree with that statement.
Early MMORPGs were a drive to work with endless mob-grinding long before you reached endgame. Despite newer MMORPGs being way better than that, they could obviously stand to be changed in ways that make them interesting for longer. The same could be said of any game, really.
It isn't that they were better per-say, but even in all that grinding, it seemed better. You grouped up with people, and had a blast, and that "grind" didn't seem like anything. Grouping with others was fun, and it was something people looked forward to. It wasn't like grouping with people today. You weren't insulted for not having the best gear, or for not understanding a boss the first time through a dungeon. You weren't insulted if you caused a wipe. I could go on about this, but I imagine you get the point.
I have plenty of memories over the years of being lost for 8-12 hours at a time, completely captured in what i was doing in a game. It was a challenge. It generally was hard. But that challenge was worth the reward, and after playing, you felt like you did something. I again, don't feel that way anymore.
I agree with you though, that any game could stand to be changed a bit. Even the older games that I fondly remember could of used a few changes here and there. I guess the point I'm trying to make is even though there was a ton more grind, it somehow felt more fulfilling, and overall a better game. I'm guessing in today's world, people can't be allowed that freedom to go do what they want, we need to be guided, or we might get lost.
In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.
I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that. It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.
If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.
How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast. Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.
Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above. We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs. Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)
Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.
I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.
It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book. Remember the movie Jurassic Park? the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour? The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path. This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.
SWTOR is the primary, most high profile whipping boy for what's wrong with the MMORPG genre. The answers are blatantly easy.
1. Despite BioWare being one of the most popular developers in any game genre around, for all their reputation, they fear straying away from all the things WoW has done. So... another WoW Clone, in a sea of WoW Clones.
2. Limited PvP: Heavily instanced based. See my complaints about instanced vs old school open world PvP in one of my earlier posts. The developers by design relegated PvP into a tiny, empty shoebox and stuffed it under the bed to be forgotten about.
3. Excessive Single Player Focus: Come on, NPCs that can fill out your party and craft gear for you too? SWTOR continues the trend of destroying completely community interdependency and cohesiveness. I say again, SWTOR is a SPRPG that requires an internet connection, nothing more.
4. Lack of things to do outside combat. Very plain and simple.
5. Lastly, despite the time and outrageous amount of money SWTOR received for development, the only thing that positively stands out with the game is... voiceovers. Yes, voiceovers, and lots of them. Seriously?!? After all that time and money, the only thing that stands out is voiceovers? Instead of text telling you to skin 10 Jawas, a voice actor tells you to skin 10 Jawas?
How can SWTOR not be the poster child for what's wrong with MMORPGs? You have developers with the name "BioWare," have ample time, and have the cash that 99% of other developers can only dream of getting, have the fabled "Star Wars" IP, and the end result is... SWTOR.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.
I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that. It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.
If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.
How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast. Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.
Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above. We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs. Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)
Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.
I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.
It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book. Remember the movie Jurassic Park? the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour? The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path. This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.
That is what EVERY themepark is by definition so I don't get your point. If you're saying the story is bad then I disagree as I feel it's one of the best and well presented stories in a MMO that I've seen in a long time. People call it a single player rpg for a reason.
Edit: LOL! look at point #3 of the post right above mine.
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.
I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that. It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.
If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.
How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast. Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.
Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above. We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs. Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)
Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.
I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.
It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book. Remember the movie Jurassic Park? the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour? The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path. This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.
That is what EVERY themepark is by definition so I don't get your point. If you're saying the story is bad then I disagree as I feel it's one of the best and well presented stories in a MMO that I've seen in a long time. People call it a single player rpg for a reason.
Edit: LOL! look at point #3 of the post right above mine.
That's not true. Ever go to Disneyworld? the most epic themepark every created but guess what, I have SOOOO many options to choose from and many, especially in Epcot center, are interactive and let me off the linear path. WoW and Lotro are themepark but they have an extra element that Rift and SWTOR failed to capture. Explorable worlds that feel alive, for the most part.
Now, me personally, I want sandparks. Hybrids, and they are coming in TSW, GW2, ArcheAge. But SWTOR and Rift seem to be going backwards away from what makes a good themepark have longevity.
How did you get the assumption that I meant story was bad? It's not and is one of the only good aspects of SWTOR, however once you hit 50 and the story is over....well then we're right back in threads like this wondering where the longevity in SWTOR is and why they didn't create true WORLDs to play in.
SWTOR is the primary, most high profile whipping boy for what's wrong with the MMORPG genre. The answers are blatantly easy.
1. Despite BioWare being one of the most popular developers in any game genre around, for all their reputation, they fear straying away from all the things WoW has done. So... another WoW Clone, in a sea of WoW Clones.
2. Limited PvP: Heavily instanced based. See my complaints about instanced vs old school open world PvP in one of my earlier posts. The developers by design relegated PvP into a tiny, empty shoebox and stuffed it under the bed to be forgotten about.
3. Excessive Single Player Focus: Come on, NPCs that can fill out your party and craft gear for you too? SWTOR continues the trend of destroying completely community interdependency and cohesiveness. I say again, SWTOR is a SPRPG that requires an internet connection, nothing more.
4. Lack of things to do outside combat. Very plain and simple.
5. Lastly, despite the time and outrageous amount of money SWTOR received for development, the only thing that positively stands out with the game is... voiceovers. Yes, voiceovers, and lots of them. Seriously?!? After all that time and money, the only thing that stands out is voiceovers? Instead of text telling you to skin 10 Jawas, a voice actor tells you to skin 10 Jawas?
How can SWTOR not be the poster child for what's wrong with MMORPGs? You have developers with the name "BioWare," have ample time, and have the cash that 99% of other developers can only dream of getting, have the fabled "Star Wars" IP, and the end result is... SWTOR.
And yet lets look at WoW.
Point 1 cant be held against it obviously.
Point 2 can. They had open world PvP at launch, but shifted the focus to BGs and arenas and stopped supporting any kind of open PvP at all. It just doesnt happen. I dont think Ive seen a city raid once in all of Cataclysm.
Point 3? Pioneered by WoW. No game on the market is more single player focused than WoW. Outside of Crucible of Carnage, I dont think there was a single multiplayer quest in all of Cataclysm. And they *removed* all multiplayer quests from the 1-80 game. Also games are driven by impersonal group mechanics like the LFD tool or Rifts public group system. In Rift you can be closing a rift, someone comes along, enters your group, kills a few things, and leaves without a word. that could have been an AI driven companion for all I know.
Point 4? Well in WoW you can do dailies or...umm....? SWToR does have the mini game with the space shooter and it has the codex which functions like achievements. No, its not impressive (though the codex is kind of cool). But what does WoW have that stands out here? No housng, no social activities whatsoever. Just dailies, dungeons, raids, achievements, currency grinds.
And point 5....for billions of dollars a year and revenue and a glacial 2 year expansion cycle all Blizzard can give is cataclysm? Really?
The fact is the industry leader is guilty of your points as well, and they have way more money than Bioware and have experience with MMORPGs, and they own their IP so they arent as handcuffed by it.
WoW and Lotro are themepark but they have an extra element that Rift and SWTOR failed to capture. Explorable worlds that feel alive, for the most part.
And WoW has removed this element from its newer content and discouraged it from ther older content.
And LOTRO? It has housing. It has its music system which is awesome. Things that make it seem like you actually are in middle earth. Not just fighting in front of a projection screen of middle earth.
Themeparks are unsustainable because any content that you create only becomes obsolete within a few months.Developers need to create content that lasts for the lifetime of the product and stop creating fast food content.
Themeparks are unsustainable because any content that you create only becomes obsolete within a few months.Developers need to create content that lasts for the lifetime of the product and stop creating fast food content.
That's what I felt about AOC and fallen earth. I reach the level cap and nothing else to do. And apparently that's how my whole guild quit in those 2 games.
But games like wow have raid, dungeon, battleground, arena. Those keep many player to play for years. Tell me how Wow can have so many subscriber if what you say is true.
I play Atlantica online for 2 years, all I do everyday is kill the same monster over and over again. As boring as it sounds, those things keep player's subscription.
Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.
And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.
SWG... Also had the SW name and was still a failure in the eyes of the very devs who created it.
I think what you typed is absolutly BS the reason being that I once tried to get about 5 of my non mmo playing gamer friends into MMOs, I gave them all trial invites. They played for about a month n a half each and then unsubbed, Their reason? that there was too much crap to do and the game was too big. The Irony to it is they absoluty adore SKYRIM.
It's funny that you bring up SWG, because the game failed when it was revamped into a Theme Park. Regardless, old SWG is still one of the most talked about and missed MMOs to have ever been created.
As for your friends quitting because the game was too "complex", then your friends represent the problem in the genre - hold me hand and guide me type players who want everything as easy as possible.
Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.
And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.
SWG... Also had the SW name and was still a failure in the eyes of the very devs who created it.
I think what you typed is absolutly BS the reason being that I once tried to get about 5 of my non mmo playing gamer friends into MMOs, I gave them all trial invites. They played for about a month n a half each and then unsubbed, Their reason? that there was too much crap to do and the game was too big. The Irony to it is they absoluty adore SKYRIM.
It's funny that you bring up SWG, because the game failed when it was revamped into a Theme Park. Regardless, old SWG is still one of the most talked about and missed MMOs to have ever been created.
As for your friends quitting because the game was too "complex", then your friends represent the problem in the genre - hold me hand and guide me type players who want everything as easy as possible.
+1!!
To precious328:
Also, SWG was not a failure in the eyes of the devs who made it (Raph Koster has said the opposite), nor was it a financial failure. It probably could have been even more financially successful if not pushed to release sooner than it was ready. Also it had a terrible marking campaign compared to AAA MMOs today.
Also, I would hang out with other friends I think these ones might have a bad influence on you.
Well the way I see it is SWG was buggy as hell yet people still played it, kinda like SW:Tor in that regard. People like the damnedest things.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Comments
Repeat after me:
All content is journey.
All gameplay is journey.
Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.
People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.
It hasn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey. It feels like a drive to work and back home again. Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.
"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
What did they fail to do? Capture WoW numbers? Failed? Those games you list are still around and still being played by folks who actaully enjoy them. Even Vangaurd is still around.
No, that is completely wrong.
First off, Blizzard fans swoon over anything Blizzard puts out. Now the same can be said about, oh let's say Star Wars, but with one key difference. SW fan != computer user or gamer. Blizzard fan = computer user AND gamer.
Secondly, WoW essentially made MMOs accessible to the masses via instant gratification. Before WoW, getting to max level in a MMO meant something; after WoW, not a single f was given. They then disguised the typical MMO level grind as 'end game' and made the never ending treadmill of end game gear. In essence you're doing the same thing, just one is a level number while the other is the gear your wearing. Funny note, previous to WoW games had more depth in this respect as they had endgame as well.
Third, the perfect storm. WoW is an anomaly to MMOs because of this. Even their fabled Titan won't have as great success. Greedy CEOs don't know this though. They see $_$ and have at it. It's not about them 'failing to capture lightning in a bottle' as there is no real lightning to be caught, only deception and fanism.
Fourth, unwashed masses(so to speak). WoW brought in way too many new people into the MMO genre, essentially changing the MMO community... FOR THE WORST. On top of this, these new players have no idea about MMOs as they think WoW is unique and creative when that's furthest from the truth. But don't try to tell them that because they won't have any of it. WoW will always be the first and last MMO ever to them.
Fifth, the ravenous community facilitated by WoW. I've never seen people blitz through MMOs until after WoW came out. Now ever game since is being blitz through, coincidence?
...and lastly... before you argue success = quality or worth or w/e, I have one word and sequential number following it for you: MADDEN. Nuff said.
So if you want to blindly say WoW success has nothing to do with these MMOs, is not to blame and was a quality MMO while the new ones are not(in post-WoW MMO terms) then I'll happily sit back, see you for who you are and yell at those darn kids to get off my dang lawn.
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
Yep, they are either on life support or have gone f2p.
As long as we're not trying to pretend earlier MMORPGs were somehow better, I totally agree with that statement.
Early MMORPGs were a drive to work with endless mob-grinding long before you reached endgame. Despite newer MMORPGs being way better than that, they could obviously stand to be changed in ways that make them interesting for longer. The same could be said of any game, really.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
/facepalm
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
God I miss SWG when I read stuff like that, "raiding" AH was awesome, SWG is my personal #1 when it comes to pvp, stuff like BH hunting Jedi's, with a bunch of TKA's backing you up, chasing them for some time, finding the bastard and hoping that the small time window you'd have to lock him down and beat him up, like he just grabbed your gf on the arse in a club was super exciting, sometimes you and your crew would get him on the first hit, and sometimes the bugger would forcerun away and head to his guild town asap with you chasing him down, heck we once spend 7 hours killing a jedi, which ended in a huge fight at "his" town against his guild, that day just went by as if it were 1 hour, great stuff.
Regarding SWTOR, I bought it because it had the Star wars label, I've never played any Bioware game before tbh, but was hoping for just a wee bit of star wars magic, even though I realised that it werent and never would be like SWG, my opion about it?
What a horrible excuse for a mmo, seriously, I'll admit I played WoW at launch and actually enjoyed it for some years, it HAD a good balance of not beeing too Theme parkish for me, world pvp would happen and server communities were somwhat close (you'd usually know who were beating you up)
So what went wrong? Instead of experimenting with more sandbox in their game, they obviously wanted new people to try out mmo's, and went down the disaster route of turning into an extremely linear RPG wannbe game, and what happens next? other devs look at wow and envy their succes, so they copy them, not realising that WoW are loosing subs after they released the disaster that was Cata, it's as if they just need to throw in some pvp vendors and bg's, and then a few raids and tokens to buy gear for, and that's it, wtf?
And people call that content? It's not content, it's mindless grinding, I'd rather grind out a character killing the same 10 mobs for 2 months (yes, sprta SWG style), and have actual content when I finally reach the max level, than be fooled with the usual instanced pvp/ instanced raid BS.
Remember sitting Krayt hunting? I'd take that any day over some weird raid where you feel like you're part of some dancing crew who gotta perform an exact action at a specific time to be successful, it's mindblowing that this kind of "content" is still labeled as content be actual mmo players.
I play mmo's to live in a virtual world, not to follow the red line from level 1-50 and then run a treadmill.
WAR was, if possible, better than SWTOR imo, I had superhigh hopes for SWTOR, but seeing how far they took theme park kinda surprised me, never thought anyone would turn it into a ride in a theme park.
But the ultimate message being sent is that its not ok for Bioware to have a lousy product, but its fine for Blizzard and Trion. Trion, more than any other AAA MMORPG, said 'we dont give a gnoll's ass about our journey, we know endgame is what you really want'.
When you want to get weeds out of your garden do you snip the top off? No you pull it out from its roots.
Doing laps around the block is not a journey. Thats what WoW, Rift and SWToR are all about now. And to make matters worse, that block used to have many, many roads that led to it. All the roads have been closed but one or two now.
In my experience with early MMORPGs, all those roads were merely endless mob-grind and vastly less interesting a journey than the activities I do in a well-made modern endgame.
It's all still journey though, whether you pretend it isn't or not. Journey is gameplay, and MMORPGs clearly offer gameplay at endgame. As long as it keeps throwing interesting things at you, you keep journeying.
It's only when you reach best-in-slot everything that the journey really ends. The journey may be less interesting if you have to grind a lot but, well...early MMORPGs are guiltier than most MMORPGs of that particular gameplay sin.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It isn't that they were better per-say, but even in all that grinding, it seemed better. You grouped up with people, and had a blast, and that "grind" didn't seem like anything. Grouping with others was fun, and it was something people looked forward to. It wasn't like grouping with people today. You weren't insulted for not having the best gear, or for not understanding a boss the first time through a dungeon. You weren't insulted if you caused a wipe. I could go on about this, but I imagine you get the point.
I have plenty of memories over the years of being lost for 8-12 hours at a time, completely captured in what i was doing in a game. It was a challenge. It generally was hard. But that challenge was worth the reward, and after playing, you felt like you did something. I again, don't feel that way anymore.
I agree with you though, that any game could stand to be changed a bit. Even the older games that I fondly remember could of used a few changes here and there. I guess the point I'm trying to make is even though there was a ton more grind, it somehow felt more fulfilling, and overall a better game. I'm guessing in today's world, people can't be allowed that freedom to go do what they want, we need to be guided, or we might get lost.
It's funny you bring up that analogy about rushing through a tour or book. Remember the movie Jurassic Park? the part where they have to sit im the jeeps on that automated tour? The characters see no dinosaurs but are wanting to, so they take it upon themselves to break the rules by leaving the jeep and venturing off the "linear" path. This is what SWTOR is but without the ability to leave the jeep.
Back to me being more pertaining to the topic.
SWTOR is the primary, most high profile whipping boy for what's wrong with the MMORPG genre. The answers are blatantly easy.
1. Despite BioWare being one of the most popular developers in any game genre around, for all their reputation, they fear straying away from all the things WoW has done. So... another WoW Clone, in a sea of WoW Clones.
2. Limited PvP: Heavily instanced based. See my complaints about instanced vs old school open world PvP in one of my earlier posts. The developers by design relegated PvP into a tiny, empty shoebox and stuffed it under the bed to be forgotten about.
3. Excessive Single Player Focus: Come on, NPCs that can fill out your party and craft gear for you too? SWTOR continues the trend of destroying completely community interdependency and cohesiveness. I say again, SWTOR is a SPRPG that requires an internet connection, nothing more.
4. Lack of things to do outside combat. Very plain and simple.
5. Lastly, despite the time and outrageous amount of money SWTOR received for development, the only thing that positively stands out with the game is... voiceovers. Yes, voiceovers, and lots of them. Seriously?!? After all that time and money, the only thing that stands out is voiceovers? Instead of text telling you to skin 10 Jawas, a voice actor tells you to skin 10 Jawas?
How can SWTOR not be the poster child for what's wrong with MMORPGs? You have developers with the name "BioWare," have ample time, and have the cash that 99% of other developers can only dream of getting, have the fabled "Star Wars" IP, and the end result is... SWTOR.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
That is what EVERY themepark is by definition so I don't get your point. If you're saying the story is bad then I disagree as I feel it's one of the best and well presented stories in a MMO that I've seen in a long time. People call it a single player rpg for a reason.
Edit: LOL! look at point #3 of the post right above mine.
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
That's not true. Ever go to Disneyworld? the most epic themepark every created but guess what, I have SOOOO many options to choose from and many, especially in Epcot center, are interactive and let me off the linear path. WoW and Lotro are themepark but they have an extra element that Rift and SWTOR failed to capture. Explorable worlds that feel alive, for the most part.
Now, me personally, I want sandparks. Hybrids, and they are coming in TSW, GW2, ArcheAge. But SWTOR and Rift seem to be going backwards away from what makes a good themepark have longevity.
How did you get the assumption that I meant story was bad? It's not and is one of the only good aspects of SWTOR, however once you hit 50 and the story is over....well then we're right back in threads like this wondering where the longevity in SWTOR is and why they didn't create true WORLDs to play in.
And yet lets look at WoW.
Point 1 cant be held against it obviously.
Point 2 can. They had open world PvP at launch, but shifted the focus to BGs and arenas and stopped supporting any kind of open PvP at all. It just doesnt happen. I dont think Ive seen a city raid once in all of Cataclysm.
Point 3? Pioneered by WoW. No game on the market is more single player focused than WoW. Outside of Crucible of Carnage, I dont think there was a single multiplayer quest in all of Cataclysm. And they *removed* all multiplayer quests from the 1-80 game. Also games are driven by impersonal group mechanics like the LFD tool or Rifts public group system. In Rift you can be closing a rift, someone comes along, enters your group, kills a few things, and leaves without a word. that could have been an AI driven companion for all I know.
Point 4? Well in WoW you can do dailies or...umm....? SWToR does have the mini game with the space shooter and it has the codex which functions like achievements. No, its not impressive (though the codex is kind of cool). But what does WoW have that stands out here? No housng, no social activities whatsoever. Just dailies, dungeons, raids, achievements, currency grinds.
And point 5....for billions of dollars a year and revenue and a glacial 2 year expansion cycle all Blizzard can give is cataclysm? Really?
The fact is the industry leader is guilty of your points as well, and they have way more money than Bioware and have experience with MMORPGs, and they own their IP so they arent as handcuffed by it.
And WoW has removed this element from its newer content and discouraged it from ther older content.
And LOTRO? It has housing. It has its music system which is awesome. Things that make it seem like you actually are in middle earth. Not just fighting in front of a projection screen of middle earth.
Themeparks are unsustainable because any content that you create only becomes obsolete within a few months.Developers need to create content that lasts for the lifetime of the product and stop creating fast food content.
We need a really solid Sandbox.. Honestly starting to think that the Inde companies are gonna be the saviors of this genre!
I mean imagine when the day comes when "Daoc meets SWG-PRECU" is released !
I doubt anyone posting on this forum wouldnt drool over that idea of just giving us something solid that will last.
That's what I felt about AOC and fallen earth. I reach the level cap and nothing else to do. And apparently that's how my whole guild quit in those 2 games.
But games like wow have raid, dungeon, battleground, arena. Those keep many player to play for years. Tell me how Wow can have so many subscriber if what you say is true.
I play Atlantica online for 2 years, all I do everyday is kill the same monster over and over again. As boring as it sounds, those things keep player's subscription.
It's funny that you bring up SWG, because the game failed when it was revamped into a Theme Park. Regardless, old SWG is still one of the most talked about and missed MMOs to have ever been created.
As for your friends quitting because the game was too "complex", then your friends represent the problem in the genre - hold me hand and guide me type players who want everything as easy as possible.
+1!!
To precious328:
Also, SWG was not a failure in the eyes of the devs who made it (Raph Koster has said the opposite), nor was it a financial failure. It probably could have been even more financially successful if not pushed to release sooner than it was ready. Also it had a terrible marking campaign compared to AAA MMOs today.
Also, I would hang out with other friends I think these ones might have a bad influence on you.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Well the way I see it is SWG was buggy as hell yet people still played it, kinda like SW:Tor in that regard. People like the damnedest things.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...