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MMOs and loot
StonesDK
Member UncommonPosts: 1,805
Would you play a MMO where everybody got the same amount of loot on raids, whether that be tokens or an item or two. The only rule here is everybody is equally rewarded.
Would that be a viable endgame you would want to be a part of? If no then why not?
This would of course be the death of raidpoint systems and elitism for starters.
Comments
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
nothing can kill elitism. NOTHING. and yea everything should be equal.
No. I don't think everyone should get a piece of loot. If this was the case, then everyone would be decked out in a single weekend.
The "elitism" excuse is getting old. If we just gave everyone what they wanted, the game would have that much less sustain and drive. I thought this argument would stop after the easy players finally got their SWTOR.
Look no matter if we have the same gear or not. I am just better. I am the elite. It's not a bad thing to be elite. Elite is a dirty word these days because so many people are completely inept. It's society's fault I'm afraid. You parents bought into the media brainswashing, and raised you to think you are deserving or even entitled to being treated as if you are Mommy's little special man by the entire world. Well guess what? Some of you people just aren't good. No amount of nerfs or gear will ever put you on par with the "Elites". Face it and go play Hello Kitty Online.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
What about tokens.. 1 token pr raid then nobody would be decked out in one weekend. Another way would be to give everybody random loot. That would increase the incentive to redo the raid
Raids are dumb. Get rid of them. Problem solved.
And some of us don't want to be elite via gear. Elite in MMOs=
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I kinda agree with Cuathon here. Making a more compelling reason to do epic quests than the gear hamster wheel would solve the problem a lot better than putting a band-aid on bad game design.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Everyone agree with me today.
I say: "World what wrong? Where catch?"
(I.E. See WoW)
Yes, however it won't work with the current paradigm of MMOs. The problem is... well, it's complicated. It starts with leveling. Currently, levels in MMOs are too important. You quite literally level out of content, effectively erecting a wall behind you as you go through the game. Eventually, you make it to the level cap and find that all that content you went through as you levelled is now insignificant... you overpower it so badly that going back to it has no challenge, there's no fun anymore. So you need to be entertained somehow while you're at cap... and that's where the treadmill starts. You start running the level cap dungeons to get gear to get into the first tier of raids. When you gear enough you move to the next tier and start the gear grind again. Once you gear enough there... well, rinse, repeat ad infinitum. Every time you progress even to the next tier that wall continues to get erected behind you... the early raids become trivilalized.
So... they need to keep you in challenging content as much as possible without boring you so greatly that you give up. Hence, RNG gear drops. Instead of everyone rightfully earning a reward for their accomplishments you find your reward becomes nothing more than a roll of the dice for a useful piece to even drop... then if it does there's yet another roll of the dice to hope you get that one piece. As a result, you run the same raids over and over, the treadmill lasts longer and longer, but thanks to tuning the RNG you get to move on before you give up completely.
This is why with the current paradigm having everyone get a piece they need won't work... they'll run out of pieces before the next release, and with the walls erected behind them there's nothing for them to do.
Now... let's change the paradigm the way GW2 is. Instead of walls being erected behind you as you level, if you decide to go back to lower level areas you'll find that you've been "side-kicked" down... basically reduced in power to the point that, even though you'll still have an easier time than someone "at level", you'll still find the lower level areas challenging. This includes the lower level dungeons, especially the "explorable mode" (think Hard Mode) dungeons. What this means is that every dungeon, and every path in the dungeon (each dungeon has at least three different explorable mode paths in them with different bosses to beat) will always remain a challenge no matter your level. Plus, there's not going to be the gear treadmill in GW2... you won't have tiers of gear that replace tiers of gear that replace tiers of gear at max level. You'll also be able to transfer the stats of any gear you like to any other piece, giving the look you like.
What's this all mean? Well, all dungeons are always significant, and all rewards from all dungeons will always be significant. You can be at level 80, run a level 30 dungeon, enjoy the challenge, collect your token (that everyone gets if succcessful) and get a piece of gear you like, and that gear will be perfectly viable for your character. In this paradigm, an emphatic YES to the OPs question... everyone should be rewarded for their efforts running these dungeons.
You just need the right style of game for that to work in.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It doesn't add any flavor to a mmo if everybody got the same loot.
however i have seen a couple concepts that can help people get something on every raid just for being there
like specific raid points redeemable for certain items.. maybe not as good as the raid drops but still good enough.
and raid points storable for more future purchase of more powerful items.
Loot treadmills don't need to be in every single MMO on the market. The only kind of raid I want to be involved in is attacking an enemy's city/town or defending the ramparts of my own humble castle of awesomeness.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
i would play a game if everyone got whatever the same IF the focus of loot was toned down to the fact that player skill > loot
In Ultima i used to be able to massacre people with a store bought viking sword/shield against their Katana of Vanquishing and plate of invunerablilty ...this was all due to skill. (well and deadly poisoning helped lol)
Of course even back then only ONE godlike weapon usually dropped off 'raid' monsters (before people figured out cheap ways to kill Balrons/Ancient Wyrms) but then nowadays greed is everything and if everyone got something it might cut down on ninjaing/drama and leaving raids after you get what wanted.
Best loot should come from tradeskills and epic personal quests..i would be happy if raid bosses only dropped tradeskill items...i mean its a little lame that every giant evil monster carries a backpack full of exciting weapons and armor...by far better if you can bring an empty vial and fill it up with dead monsters blood or snag an eyeball to imbue a sword with when you get back to the local arcane wizard store or whatever.
there are just way too many magic weapons etc!!!!!!! seriously HOW many magic swords do you as a hero really need to replace? lol imagine any fantasy film if the hero kept stopping to upgrade to a new sword because it made his pinky finger feel stronger... Magic items are WAY too trivial now
I like the idea, but I don't think it would work. Right now, MMO economics function like a free market democracy. If everyone gets the same in dungeons and raids this will shift toward communism. It could work, but I doubt it.
It could work if gear wasn't such a big deal in a game.. think about a fps game for example.. mostly skill based and everybody can get access to the same weapons (gear) easily.
If a mmo was based on skill for the most part and gear had little effect except in clutch situations.. then it wouldn't matter if everybody got the same stuff.
What about instead of everyone getting a drop you don't allow better gear from drops just better looking gear. So, say I could purchase or craft gear that is every bit as good as what is dropped. If I want I get the prestige of showing off the dropped gear when I "earn it". Personally I'm tired of raids but grinders are gonna grind and giving them bragging rites is enough to keep them happy. Everyone is equally rewarded for the way they want to play and those who want to feel elite have a way of doing that too.
Not if you do it right.
Let's use WOW as an example. There are 17 slots for equipment (that is if you wield two weapons, or a weapon and a shield). If you can only raid once a week (more or less the norm) and if you get 1 upgrade per week. Then it takes 17 weeks .. more than 4 month to fully equiped. This is NOT counting getting better pieces.
IMHO, that is too SLOW.
I feel everyone should be rewarded equally. It's not fair for a player to dedicate all that time and effort to just never get lucky.
I also think that it should be a slower process. MMOs now are zipping past so quickly that people are getting bored too easily. Slow things down. Getting a boss kill should be a fight, it should be an effort and should come with a great rewarding feeling of accomplishment, same with gaining any level in a game or achievement.
No, it's part of community building for me, asking who needs what and who could use what is part of being a community where you're taken care for and helped where needed.
This isn't limited to raids for me, I don't like red robbin (or whatever it is called in some games) loot or automated loot in any way.
If a game does everything for you, distribute your loot, make your group, tell the story for you, tell you who has quests, what exactly is there to talk about?
I don't see why raids do not already offer tokens/rewards for players in a balanced form. For example, you kill a boss and receive a token to purchase a tier piece. Why games are entirely RNG is beyond me... You raid as an organized unit for a single mage piece to drop, and the winner gets the item by the highest random variable between 1 and 100?? Other members get 2 medals towards that 100-medal helmet??
It's a dated system that needs some innovation. Elitism and casual have nothing to do with it; if you're that concerned with your juvenile playerbase bickering over being elite vs casual, add hardcore achievements that take 2 years of grind to get or require defeating a super mega-mode boss... it's not hard to add elements to separate the two while getting rid of this excuse of a loot system in modern MMOs.
I've seen plenty of people with "nice items" in games who aren't elitists, just like there are people who drive a BMW and then there are others who feel the need to show everyone in the world they drive one. Changing how loot is distributed will not suddently change their character, they will still be elitists.
Because RNG is more memorable. People remember the time they were the only Summoner in the raid and the Summoner epic dropped. They remember when they beat a roll of 997 with a roll of 998, or when they beat 5 other people with a lousy roll of 138.
Knowing that you have to run the content 6 more times to get enough tokens for your new pantaloons creates a sense of anticipation, but also inevitability. Knowing that you could get the pantaloons the very next time you raid is more exciting. It sucks when random bad luck means you go longer than expected without getting them, but it always feels good when you finally do get them.
Edit: And as CalmOceans said, it allows for memorable interactions with other players too. The time when a good friend passed on a roll for something he'd been waiting for just as long, as a favor to you. That kind of thing stays with you for a long time.
No, it has nothing to do with that as all. Nothing. It's all about keeping you interested until the next expansion, period. Like I explained, it's a side-effect of levelling and the gear grind. When you're doing end game raids, you've out-levelled the rest of the game, so all there is for you to do is raid. If you got a piece of gear for each raid you did, you'd quickly run out of items to acquire and, as a result, run out of things to do until the next expansion is released. So, to keep you interested in raiding, they added the RNG and limited number of drops. Someone will log in day after day, week after week (once they're hooked) to try to get that elusive item and max out their gear score.
Again... GW2 will cure this malady. You won't be making prior content obsolete as you level out of it due to their side-kicking system, which means at max level you still have every dungeon available to you at a challenging level. Instead of gearing up in the latest raid only, you'll be able to get all the gears from all the dungeons as you see fit, and they'll all be viable to your max level character. It'll be about getting the look you want as well as the stats you want, not simply the latest tier (which may look like crap).
Oderint, dum metuant.
RNG is such a flawed, frustrating and despised system that raiders have almost universally adopted DKP across multiple games as an external system to counter it. That memoral example you presented is by far the exception and not the norm. For every 'memorable' moment like that one there are countless times that the Summoner lost out on his Summoner item because a non-Summoner rolled on it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre