OP you do realise we are talking gaming here right?
people are not critiquing about a space shuttle launch or brain surgery it's a video game. Video games people have been playing since well, some of us it feels like forever. I have more gaming experience under my belt than anything else in my life. I have been gaming since I was around 5 years old and can't think of any other hobby I have had for this long.
Over those years people have just as much right ot be a "critic" as any of those paid reviewers we see all over throwing out 9's to games thaty obviously in no way in any shape or form deserve these scores.
It's not hard to predict some of these MMO failures when you see the exact same thing happen year after year it's nothing new it's not hard to play one of these games and see it's not much more than a clone of everything we have seen in years past.
Obviously all of us "critics" are not making an impact on the idustry since we see the same stuff released year after year and perhaps maybe if the REAL so called experts had a clue at all we wouldn't see so many failed games over the years
But hey what do I know 20 years of gaming experence means nothing but you know that 21 year old game developer obviously has EVERYTHING figured out...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
First, develpers now try to spend the least amount of time, money and effort in order to make the most money. They try to reach EVERY SINGLE gamer out there and in order to do that they dumb down the games to great lengths. They focus on box sales instead of longevity. Garbage in, garbage out...next crappy project.
But most importantly, it's us, gamers as a whole, who have failed. If we continue to support these crappy products with our cash things will NEVER change. We can bitch and moan all we want but until we STOP PAYING for garbage, garbage is exactly what we're going to get.
I couldnt agree more.
We must STOP SUPPORTING lackluster game design
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Originally posted by RajCaj Originally posted by Vegetto It is like everything. Once a peak has been established, there is no way to improve on it, there is only so much of the pie. It would be like someone making a rival to Facebook - Pointless. However, like rivals to Facebook have realised, the way to go is laterally, i.e. horizontal progression. So we have things like Twitter and that picture based one. So rather than trying to emulate something that has already got universal success, it is instead better to drag those customers away with a different approach. The standard model of MMORPGs is saturated, what has been done shouldn't be done again. They have the experience, the technology and the expertise to offer something more now. So with that in mind, the whole tank, dps, questing genre i think can safely be wrapped up as past. So instead of trying to improve on something that can only marginally be improved, why not try perhaps what Secret World are doing or the likes of Entropia with it's complete open endedness (minus the monetary value). On top of that, there are still many themes left untouched. But that's the problem isn't it, it is easier to follow someone, steal their ideas, tweak them a little and pass them off as your own, rather than risk failure for being clever. Used to be called 'plagiarism' when i was at Uni - a close imitation of work. It needn't be a direct copy, but if the work is heavily influenced by anothers - it's Plagiarism. An article that appeared in google for 'Game Plagiarism' - i'll give it a read: Plagiarism in Video Games
Good points.....in my Opinion, this is what Blizzard did with WOW. Read up on Blue Oceans / Red Seas Marketing Theory. The idea is that instead of competing in an already established & highly compettive industry (Red Seas), create your own new spin on an already established industry (Blue Oceans), which will allow you to also be first to market and enjoy all the benefits therein.
See Blizzard......they realized that the sandbox type of MMORPG was very niche based and recognized an opportunity to open the MMO gates (and it's VERY profitable pricing model) to the legions of "Casual Gamers". Since they were first to market (and DID a REALLY good job with WOW), they have enjoyed 10+ million subs, while competition struggles to hold on to just 10% of the subs WOW has, despite all the "advancements" they introduce.
Another driving force keeping publishers to the status quo (themepark MMOs) is the heavy financial burdon that modern MMORPGs bring. If the expectation among the AAA publishers is that it takes 10s-100s of millions of dollars for development & publishing......then they MUST create a game aimed at the broader MMO audience to get a return on Investment. For example.....Bioware / EA could have not spent 100s of millions of dollars on SW:TOR if it were created as a sandbox with a niche audience of 300-400k subs. So they MUST make the "lowest common denominator" MMO to justify the heafty price tag.
Totally agree and unfortunately i can see why developers go down this route.
As investment costs rise, risks must fall. If you can't show a proven model to your board/investors/seniors, then on what authority could you demand investment.
They would likely get the question "So, what solid research and facts can you show us that demonstrate this model will be a success?". Their only evidence will be from the old MMORPGs with their 50k sub base. It's worth noting that these people can't see far past their own noses and they will ask the obvious question "Why don't we make it like this model, which attacts 10 times that number?".
I personally don't have an answer. Situations like this are usually broken by a renegade going against the status quo and risking all in the process. The market is so top heavy now, it will take a special group to do it.
Another driving force keeping publishers to the status quo (themepark MMOs) is the heavy financial burdon that modern MMORPGs bring. If the expectation among the AAA publishers is that it takes 10s-100s of millions of dollars for development & publishing......then they MUST create a game aimed at the broader MMO audience to get a return on Investment.
For example.....Bioware / EA could have not spent 100s of millions of dollars on SW:TOR if it were created as a sandbox with a niche audience of 300-400k subs. So they MUST make the "lowest common denominator" MMO to justify the heafty price tag.
Double agreed. Particularly the investment. Particularly particularly the FRONT LOADED investment. And the fact that if anybody knows the MMO market, the track record of more open games to less open ones, they will not invest a dime on the former; odds are, they'll never see it again.
Ultimately(and evidence seems to point to this), creating a successful sandbox is a slow process in which initially a players must have little or zero expectations in regards to programming. In other words you HAVE to be known as a small or virtually nonexistant gaming company that charges little or nothing to play the game(at least initially). This way, any issues with coding that causes exploits or failures is either met with a shrug, or even considered to be part of gameplay.
From there, you can build with minimal front loaded investment, and your rewards will be based on your ability to keep a fairly small(but growing) group happy.
That, I suspect, will always be how a sandbox gets made. Open worlds are far more prone to exploitation and bugs, and even a huge, competent gamehouse won't catch them all, and the game will in all likelihood fail to meet expectations, as pre-NGE SWG, sans the rose colored glasses, did for most.
I find it funny that people say the genre isnt failing bacause it is still growing. Here is a little historical fact for you guys. One of the greatest civilizations in history was still growing when it fell to to "barbarian tribes". The people of that Empire most likely felt the same way as you, that nothing would stop them. Sadly for them something did, In case you arent up on your history I'm talking about Rome.
Long story short, dont assume something isnt failing just because there are lots of people using it. Ask GM and Dodge how that went for them.
Genre failing is cause adults make video games not those special nerd teens/kids arround 20-25.Adults make those crappy mmorpgs and noone knows how much they consider usefull from player feedbacks if they watch at all and all is money they care cough EA cough
Genre failing is cause adults make video games not those special nerd teens/kids arround 20-25.Adults make those crappy mmorpgs and noone knows how much they consider usefull from player feedbacks if they watch at all and all is money they care cough EA cough
Really, EA is the only one that cares about money? I think every game company cares about money, or they all wouldnt be making games that appeal to the greatest number of people. Really wish people would think a bit more before post their dribble.
Genre failing is cause adults make video games not those special nerd teens/kids arround 20-25.Adults make those crappy mmorpgs and noone knows how much they consider usefull from player feedbacks if they watch at all and all is money they care cough EA cough
Really, EA is the only one that cares about money? I think every game company cares about money, or they all wouldnt be making games that appeal to the greatest number of people. Really wish people would think a bit more before post their dribble.
Truth is i dnt care wich company how much money hungry is ,i just dont like fact addults stand there and make video games instead of new generations of teens.programmers to show of ideas and stuff.Posting in forums is pointless and stupid and hardly big time developer would actually browse here and take a note.Only think that left for normal users is to cry on forums.
Genre failing is cause adults make video games not those special nerd teens/kids arround 20-25.Adults make those crappy mmorpgs and noone knows how much they consider usefull from player feedbacks if they watch at all and all is money they care cough EA cough
Really, EA is the only one that cares about money? I think every game company cares about money, or they all wouldnt be making games that appeal to the greatest number of people. Really wish people would think a bit more before post their dribble.
Truth is i dnt care wich company how much money hungry is ,i just dont like fact addults stand there and make video games instead of new generations of teens.programmers to show of ideas and stuff.Posting in forums is pointless and stupid and hardly big time developer would actually browse here and take a note.Only think that left for normal users is to cry on forums.
Well hate to tell you but no one is going to invest millions in a game just to loose that money, its a sad disgusting truth. Now Im not in the industry but Im sure there are plenty of young people developing games now. its not who is developing the game that isnt imaginative its those same investors that want their money back that do not want to deviate from what they have seen as working to make that money back.
Those are the people that put any and all creativity on hold in the interest of making money, not the developers.
People so easily expect a game to release in the same condition, with all the feature-set of every other game ever made previously.
SWTOR - in dev 5 years. released December 20 2011 --- 5 years 2 months overall dev time
WoW - in dev 5 years,released November 23 2004 ---------12 years 2 months overall dev time
EVE - in Dev 5 years released May 2003 ----------------------- 12 years 8 months overall dev time
EverQuest - in dev 3 years released March 16 1999 ------ 15 years 10 months overall dev time
Now if you had some idea of the total number of people working on a game over it's lifetime so far you could have an idea of the "man-hours" of each title's development, which might drastically alter those numbers above & be much more relative in terms of how much work has been done on each title.
Expecting a game to newly release in direct fully-matching competion to all of it's contemporaries is narrow-minded & short-sighted, the longer those titles have been out the bigger & bigger the budgets & teams would need to be to match them on release, completely & utterly inflationary & unrealistic.
It's not just a question of time but also direction.
I can run due south all I want, chances are I'll be dead before I reach the north pole.
It seems to me that the people in charge of these WoW cloning business ventures aren't MMO players themselves and therefore are incapable of grasping what makes an MMO work.
Anyone who has once loved an MMO can tell you in an instant why WoW worked and why SWTOR doesn't, you don't need to be a senior developper in a big studio for that, all you need is to have lived the experience at least once and have enough intelligence to understand why the game had that effect on you.
My guess is at Bioware (and other fail MMO developpers of today) they have the intelligence, they have the talent and the experience in game development but they lack a leader with solid player MMO experience (or any other type of multiplayer RPG for that matter, online or off) who knows wtf he's doing.
this is the kind of talk I'm on about..... You are really suggesting that the people who make these games have never played MMORPGS and aren't fans?
No, not anyone can say why wow worked and others "haven't". Unless you can find someone like Michael Jackson who'd throw money away to make an "IDEAL" it wont happen... the books have to balance
People so easily expect a game to release in the same condition, with all the feature-set of every other game ever made previously.
SWTOR - in dev 5 years. released December 20 2011 --- 5 years 2 months overall dev time
WoW - in dev 5 years,released November 23 2004 ---------12 years 2 months overall dev time
EVE - in Dev 5 years released May 2003 ----------------------- 12 years 8 months overall dev time
EverQuest - in dev 3 years released March 16 1999 ------ 15 years 10 months overall dev time
Now if you had some idea of the total number of people working on a game over it's lifetime so far you could have an idea of the "man-hours" of each title's development, which might drastically alter those numbers above & be much more relative in terms of how much work has been done on each title.
Expecting a game to newly release in direct fully-matching competion to all of it's contemporaries is narrow-minded & short-sighted, the longer those titles have been out the bigger & bigger the budgets & teams would need to be to match them on release, completely & utterly inflationary & unrealistic.
It's not just a question of time but also direction.
I can run due south all I want, chances are I'll be dead before I reach the north pole.
It seems to me that the people in charge of these WoW cloning business ventures aren't MMO players themselves and therefore are incapable of grasping what makes an MMO work.
Anyone who has once loved an MMO can tell you in an instant why WoW worked and why SWTOR doesn't, you don't need to be a senior developper in a big studio for that, all you need is to have lived the experience at least once and have enough intelligence to understand why the game had that effect on you.
My guess is at Bioware (and other fail MMO developpers of today) they have the intelligence, they have the talent and the experience in game development but they lack a leader with solid player MMO experience (or any other type of multiplayer RPG for that matter, online or off) who knows wtf he's doing.
this is the kind of talk I'm on about..... You are really suggesting that the people who make these games have never played MMORPGS and aren't fans?
No, not anyone can say why wow worked and others "haven't". Unless you can find someone like Michael Jackson who'd throw money away to make an "IDEAL" it wont happen... the books have to balance
But there's a difference between balancing books and turning a profit and a bigger difference between turning a profit and hitting the jack pot.
Are companies looking to make a profit or are they chasing rainbows to hit a jack pot?
What's wrong with telling them to stop chasing rainbows? Hell, the playerbase told CCP to stop chasing rainbows and both CCP and it's playerbase are quite content at the moment and a nice profit is being made. The same thing was done a few years ago with SWG and look at what happened when the devs insisted on chasing their rainbow to find their jackpot.
First, develpers now try to spend the least amount of time, money and effort in order to make the most money. They try to reach EVERY SINGLE gamer out there and in order to do that they dumb down the games to great lengths. They focus on box sales instead of longevity. Garbage in, garbage out...next crappy project.
But most importantly, it's us, gamers as a whole, who have failed. If we continue to support these crappy products with our cash things will NEVER change. We can bitch and moan all we want but until we STOP PAYING for garbage, garbage is exactly what we're going to get.
I couldnt agree more.
We must STOP SUPPORTING lackluster game design
Unfortunately its not that simple.
The market is saturated with said lackluster game design, leaving us with only 2 options...
1) Continue to pay for lackluster game design because there is nothing else
2) Stop playing MMOs altogether
So far we've been taking option 1, and nothing has changed
If we take option 2, MMOs will fail, investors will think the 'fad' is over, and they'll be afraid to put money into the genre altogether. Resulting in a total failure of the genre.
The current situation of MMOs is like a miniature version of the video gaming crash of the 80s.
But there's a difference between balancing books and turning a profit and a bigger difference between turning a profit and hitting the jack pot.
Are companies looking to make a profit or are they chasing rainbows to hit a jack pot?
What's wrong with telling them to stop chasing rainbows? Hell, the playerbase told CCP to stop chasing rainbows and both CCP and it's playerbase are quite content at the moment and a nice profit is being made. The same thing was done a few years ago with SWG and look at what happened when the devs insisted on chasing their rainbow to find their jackpot.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't CCP's playerbase tell them to stop making different things and keep making EVE?
"Stop making non-EVE games, we want more EVE!" is exactly the same sort of cloning situation as WOW.
SWG's failure had nothing to do with what type of game was being chased, and everything to do with a company deciding to chase a completely different type of player after a game had launched and the playerbase stabilized. If your game is Type B, your playerbase will be Type B players. Switching your game to Type A mid-flight in the hopes of attracting the Type A players who have already given up on your game is always going to be doomed to failure. It doesn't matter what type of game Type A or B actually are (for example if WOW tried to switch to being a full-on sandbox MMORPG it would fall on its face.)
But again, SWG's failure is a lot different from the product direction choices being discussed here. If their direction had been Type A from the start, they'd have done far better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First, develpers now try to spend the least amount of time, money and effort in order to make the most money. They try to reach EVERY SINGLE gamer out there and in order to do that they dumb down the games to great lengths. They focus on box sales instead of longevity. Garbage in, garbage out...next crappy project.
But most importantly, it's us, gamers as a whole, who have failed. If we continue to support these crappy products with our cash things will NEVER change. We can bitch and moan all we want but until we STOP PAYING for garbage, garbage is exactly what we're going to get.
I couldnt agree more.
We must STOP SUPPORTING lackluster game design
Unfortunately its not that simple.
The market is saturated with said lackluster game design, leaving us with only 2 options...
1) Continue to pay for lackluster game design because there is nothing else
2) Stop playing MMOs altogether
So far we've been taking option 1, and nothing has changed
If we take option 2, MMOs will fail, investors will think the 'fad' is over, and they'll be afraid to put money into the genre altogether. Resulting in a total failure of the genre.
The current situation of MMOs is like a miniature version of the video gaming crash of the 80s.
You're forgetting the third option which is to complain about about lackluster design which is something this thread is trying to stifle with the idea that we should put up or shut up.
I'm sitting here saying that I've got money to spend but it's too bad I don't like the current crop of lackluster game titles due to their design.
First, develpers now try to spend the least amount of time, money and effort in order to make the most money. They try to reach EVERY SINGLE gamer out there and in order to do that they dumb down the games to great lengths. They focus on box sales instead of longevity. Garbage in, garbage out...next crappy project.
But most importantly, it's us, gamers as a whole, who have failed. If we continue to support these crappy products with our cash things will NEVER change. We can bitch and moan all we want but until we STOP PAYING for garbage, garbage is exactly what we're going to get.
I couldnt agree more.
We must STOP SUPPORTING lackluster game design
Unfortunately its not that simple.
The market is saturated with said lackluster game design, leaving us with only 2 options...
1) Continue to pay for lackluster game design because there is nothing else
2) Stop playing MMOs altogether
So far we've been taking option 1, and nothing has changed
If we take option 2, MMOs will fail, investors will think the 'fad' is over, and they'll be afraid to put money into the genre altogether. Resulting in a total failure of the genre.
The current situation of MMOs is like a miniature version of the video gaming crash of the 80s.
You're forgetting the third option which is to complain about about lackluster design which is something this thread is trying to stifle with the idea that we should put up or shut up.
I'm sitting here saying that I've got money to spend but it's too bad I don't like the current crop of lackluster game titles due to their design.
That still falls under option 1 or 2 I listed before. We can either pay for whats available (1), or for nothing at all (2). The complaints, while a great way to vent frustration, tend to fall on deaf ears because the money we put out speaks louder. So unless some game developer out there takes the first step, things wont likely change.
But there's a difference between balancing books and turning a profit and a bigger difference between turning a profit and hitting the jack pot.
Are companies looking to make a profit or are they chasing rainbows to hit a jack pot?
What's wrong with telling them to stop chasing rainbows? Hell, the playerbase told CCP to stop chasing rainbows and both CCP and it's playerbase are quite content at the moment and a nice profit is being made. The same thing was done a few years ago with SWG and look at what happened when the devs insisted on chasing their rainbow to find their jackpot.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't CCP's playerbase tell them to stop making different things and keep making EVE?
"Stop making non-EVE games, we want more EVE!" is exactly the same sort of cloning situation as WOW.
SWG's failure had nothing to do with what type of game was being chased, and everything to do with a company deciding to chase a completely different type of player after a game had launched and the playerbase stabilized. If your game is Type B, your playerbase will be Type B players. Switching your game to Type A mid-flight in the hopes of attracting the Type A players who have already given up on your game is always going to be doomed to failure. It doesn't matter what type of game Type A or B actually are (for example if WOW tried to switch to being a full-on sandbox MMORPG it would fall on its face.)
But again, SWG's failure is a lot different from the product direction choices being discussed here. If their direction had been Type A from the start, they'd have done far better.
It was more like drop WiS and get back to FiS because WiS wasn't going to bring a jackpot of new gamers and to continue chasing that rainbow was going to cost them their current players. Their current players were more than happy just floating around in a can than the future prospect of watching their avatar sitting in a space station drinking Quafe.
SWG follows along the same story except where CCP was dependant on EVE players for it's survival - SOE wasn't so much. Even today there are still people calling for a SWG pre-CU rollback...
Both companies were chasing the rainbow of new players rather than making their current players happy and both were making a profit when they did it.
Infact the early days of eve online is a great example of a company that designed it's game around what it's players were doing ingame - meaning that the player's themselves helped design the game - which is contrary to this thread topic of top down designing.
It's not nessessary to be a designer or industry insider to have your say in game design.
First, develpers now try to spend the least amount of time, money and effort in order to make the most money. They try to reach EVERY SINGLE gamer out there and in order to do that they dumb down the games to great lengths. They focus on box sales instead of longevity. Garbage in, garbage out...next crappy project.
But most importantly, it's us, gamers as a whole, who have failed. If we continue to support these crappy products with our cash things will NEVER change. We can bitch and moan all we want but until we STOP PAYING for garbage, garbage is exactly what we're going to get.
I couldnt agree more.
We must STOP SUPPORTING lackluster game design
Unfortunately its not that simple.
The market is saturated with said lackluster game design, leaving us with only 2 options...
1) Continue to pay for lackluster game design because there is nothing else
2) Stop playing MMOs altogether
So far we've been taking option 1, and nothing has changed
If we take option 2, MMOs will fail, investors will think the 'fad' is over, and they'll be afraid to put money into the genre altogether. Resulting in a total failure of the genre.
The current situation of MMOs is like a miniature version of the video gaming crash of the 80s.
You're forgetting the third option which is to complain about about lackluster design which is something this thread is trying to stifle with the idea that we should put up or shut up.
I'm sitting here saying that I've got money to spend but it's too bad I don't like the current crop of lackluster game titles due to their design.
That still falls under option 1 or 2 I listed before. We can either pay for whats available (1), or for nothing at all (2). The complaints, while a great way to vent frustration, tend to fall on deaf ears because the money we put out speaks louder. So unless some game developer out there takes the first step, things wont likely change.
I can play a MMORPG and still complain about the lack of good design as I did when I played eve online, but would of preferred to play the older version of SWG.
problem with this thread is that, this genre is not failing, it's thriving.
Dont get me wrong i hate the fact that it is thriving as i prefer games with so much more depth and they are getting simpler and simpler.
But even i can't deny that the genre is going from strengh to strengh.
While it's almost certainly true that there are more people playing MMOs now than there ever has been before, the average MMORPG currently is not thriving.
Right now in the US you basically have one enormous game (WoW), one game that is pretty large (SW:TOR), and a bunch of games that nobody plays. I'd think that having 5-10 games each with about 500k subscribers would be more of a sign of a thriving genre than one game with millions of subscribers, another game with maybe 1-2 million, and a bunch of games that nobody plays, even if there was the same amount of people playing the games.
I think the culprit is that developers no longer develop games expecting people to play a long time, and people no longer buy MMOs expecting to play them more than a few months. When I was playing RIFT I remember seeing something like this a lot:
"I'm playing RIFT until TOR comes out, then playing that until TERA comes out, then playing that until GW2 comes out".
Conversely, I never remember seeing:
"I'm playing Everquest until Asheron's Call comes out, then that until Dark Age of Camelot comes out, etc.". MMOs a decade ago were designed for people who wanted a game that didn't end. Nowadays MMOs are designed to give you a quick dose of enjoyment and then you move on to the next big thing.
....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums. It seems many of them know better but instead of doing their work they spend endless hours telling everyone how much game "A" sucks and should have been made in format "x".
We have an abundance, nay over abundance of hardened industry veterans who lament the failings of the genre. Why punish us, go forth and create!
We have hundreds or market anylists that are able to "predict" what will happen and when. They tell us what is and isn't popular and why it isn't popular and like nothing more than rubbing our noses in our own ignorant filth. And yet none of these folks seem to return to their offices and continue the work they surely started before this industry wide "talent strike" took place.
There are game engine experts here that seem able to bemoan a developers choice in engine and go into lengthy detail, accurate we assume, about what said engine can and cannot do. Please, I beg of you, go back to work and make us your masterpiece so that we, the great unwashed can enjoy the fruits of your labour.
Amongst us there are hardened team leaders that know how to encourage and nuture a team of developers to create nearly a decades worth of content and new never before seen features in only 3 years! Go, now, please! By 2015 we could all be playing the new holy grail and you will be rich and famous.
I emplore you, oh talented ones, cross the picket lines and take up your laser pens, iPads and keyboards...create!
What would make this genre not "fail"? You really don't give any insight into what would make it not be "fail". Do you want to have it where it takes forever to achieve very minor things in the game? Do you want more exploration? Good pvp? Those things are already out there, but chances are, people called the game "fail" and it discouraged you from trying it out.
I love the satirical nature of the OP and recognise the frustration felt with many of the posts here.
He is right that a bloated proportion of posters on this site have quite ridiculous ideals of what can be achieved and delivered on a budget. It seems as if any new game is expected to be the very best of every game which has gone before and on launch day.
This is not too say that every critical post is pointless and valid points are often made between the seas of hype and diatribe.
The genre is clearly a success in terms of generating revenue. My personal opinion is that it is the community itself that has sunk lowest. So much of what people write is negative, often baseless and frequently over emotional. Ever since the demise of SWG a large proportion of posters here seem fixated on ranting relentlessly about their recent gaming disappointment. It can be rather pathetic at times.
On a positive note I've been playing TERA all weekend and having a great time. I can't guarantee it will keep me occupied for the next 5 years but it will probably last me longer than Skyrim (a known epic game).
Originally posted by nikoliath ....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums. It seems many of them know better but instead of doing their work they spend endless hours telling everyone how much game "A" sucks and should have been made in format "x". We have an abundance, nay over abundance of hardened industry veterans who lament the failings of the genre. Why punish us, go forth and create!
We have hundreds or market anylists that are able to "predict" what will happen and when. They tell us what is and isn't popular and why it isn't popular and like nothing more than rubbing our noses in our own ignorant filth. And yet none of these folks seem to return to their offices and continue the work they surely started before this industry wide "talent strike" took place.
There are game engine experts here that seem able to bemoan a developers choice in engine and go into lengthy detail, accurate we assume, about what said engine can and cannot do. Please, I beg of you, go back to work and make us your masterpiece so that we, the great unwashed can enjoy the fruits of your labour.
Amongst us there are hardened team leaders that know how to encourage and nuture a team of developers to create nearly a decades worth of content and new never before seen features in only 3 years! Go, now, please! By 2015 we could all be playing the new holy grail and you will be rich and famous.
I emplore you, oh talented ones, cross the picket lines and take up your laser pens, iPads and keyboards...create!
It will fail when you think rich and famous. $$$ are the problem in genre.
I only think a small and independed developer with creativity and dare be different can safe the genre not the rich and famous with $$$.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
....is due to the fact that all the industry experts seem to hang out in forums. It seems many of them know better but instead of doing their work they spend endless hours telling everyone how much game "A" sucks and should have been made in format "x".
Great and Inspirational Post!
I am by no means an "industry expert", just a player with lots of playing experience ove rthe past 15 years, somewhat fed up of what the industry is churning out, dissapointed with all of the games in the last 8 years or so, trying to have some fun in a game that all my friends will enjoy aswell.
How many times have you gone in to a game all hyped up with your guild only to see interest fall within two weeks then one leaves then another and another then yourself, then people get frustrated that their friends are quiting and morale falls for everyone.
This happens in reality all over the place with many different guilds, it is not only yours. The root cause, in my opinion, is the types of games that the Industry is making.
Too narrow too specialised too focussed on one thing and one thing alone, which obviously appeals to specific types of people and not others. But a group of friends is diverse it is made up of many different people especially the older guilds which got origianlly formed in games with much wider scope.
It seems like the industry is approaching this issue in a very impersonal way, not taking under account the nature of players. A big part of playing an MMO is the fact that it can be ahsraed experience with one's friends, but when the game itself only caters to specific personalities and 3/4 of one's friends quit it, then there is no motivation to stay either, the game becomes unfun even for thos ethat initially may have like it.
I do nto know if this is due to the pressures develloment Team undergoe, I do not know if this is due to Investment practices forcing Devellopers to excute the same plan over and over without having any freedom to be innovative or creative being constrtained by the same formula, or if simpy as you say the big talents spend more time writting Blogs and Giving seminars rather than making games.
But the situation does need to change.
That being said, I have had the urge to make such a game myself for 10 years now, about 7 years ago I started puting on paper my ideas, brainstormed my butt off, played things out in my mind , discussed with some very close and trustworthy friends who also play MMO's for 15 years, droped some ideas, refined others, and a year ago I decided to go forth in realising this goal, I am now back in University learning the skills in Game Devellopment..
The good thing is that during these 10 years no one else made that game, albeit I have seen many of my ideas in many separate games in one form or another, it made me realise through the process that Ideas are not unique in reality, everyone can have the same ideas, yet from the same basic ideas, you could have 10 different results of games or more, it also depends on your vision and synthesis of these ideas, or if you will implementation.
I should be seeking Investment in the near future, in a presentation room near you, and if the investors/publishers are narrow minded and intransigeant, well then independent devellopment will be what will need to happen.
Sa as players we should not denigrate Indies please automatically, they may not have the Chuck Norris Ads all over Yutube, but that does not mean that they can't make good fun games that many here want to be playing in reality.
Yes I agree some Indie companies have dissapointed us in the near past, but then again AAA companies have been dissapointing us for the past 8 years or so too. Yet when we see a new game made by AAA companies we all flock to them no questions asked like bees towards honney, and we get dissapointed anyways. Lets not generalise.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Comments
OP you do realise we are talking gaming here right?
people are not critiquing about a space shuttle launch or brain surgery it's a video game. Video games people have been playing since well, some of us it feels like forever. I have more gaming experience under my belt than anything else in my life. I have been gaming since I was around 5 years old and can't think of any other hobby I have had for this long.
Over those years people have just as much right ot be a "critic" as any of those paid reviewers we see all over throwing out 9's to games thaty obviously in no way in any shape or form deserve these scores.
It's not hard to predict some of these MMO failures when you see the exact same thing happen year after year it's nothing new it's not hard to play one of these games and see it's not much more than a clone of everything we have seen in years past.
Obviously all of us "critics" are not making an impact on the idustry since we see the same stuff released year after year and perhaps maybe if the REAL so called experts had a clue at all we wouldn't see so many failed games over the years
But hey what do I know 20 years of gaming experence means nothing but you know that 21 year old game developer obviously has EVERYTHING figured out...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I couldnt agree more.
We must STOP SUPPORTING lackluster game design
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
See Blizzard......they realized that the sandbox type of MMORPG was very niche based and recognized an opportunity to open the MMO gates (and it's VERY profitable pricing model) to the legions of "Casual Gamers". Since they were first to market (and DID a REALLY good job with WOW), they have enjoyed 10+ million subs, while competition struggles to hold on to just 10% of the subs WOW has, despite all the "advancements" they introduce.
Another driving force keeping publishers to the status quo (themepark MMOs) is the heavy financial burdon that modern MMORPGs bring. If the expectation among the AAA publishers is that it takes 10s-100s of millions of dollars for development & publishing......then they MUST create a game aimed at the broader MMO audience to get a return on Investment.
For example.....Bioware / EA could have not spent 100s of millions of dollars on SW:TOR if it were created as a sandbox with a niche audience of 300-400k subs. So they MUST make the "lowest common denominator" MMO to justify the heafty price tag.
Totally agree and unfortunately i can see why developers go down this route.
As investment costs rise, risks must fall. If you can't show a proven model to your board/investors/seniors, then on what authority could you demand investment.
They would likely get the question "So, what solid research and facts can you show us that demonstrate this model will be a success?". Their only evidence will be from the old MMORPGs with their 50k sub base. It's worth noting that these people can't see far past their own noses and they will ask the obvious question "Why don't we make it like this model, which attacts 10 times that number?".
I personally don't have an answer. Situations like this are usually broken by a renegade going against the status quo and risking all in the process. The market is so top heavy now, it will take a special group to do it.
Double agreed. Particularly the investment. Particularly particularly the FRONT LOADED investment. And the fact that if anybody knows the MMO market, the track record of more open games to less open ones, they will not invest a dime on the former; odds are, they'll never see it again.
Ultimately(and evidence seems to point to this), creating a successful sandbox is a slow process in which initially a players must have little or zero expectations in regards to programming. In other words you HAVE to be known as a small or virtually nonexistant gaming company that charges little or nothing to play the game(at least initially). This way, any issues with coding that causes exploits or failures is either met with a shrug, or even considered to be part of gameplay.
From there, you can build with minimal front loaded investment, and your rewards will be based on your ability to keep a fairly small(but growing) group happy.
That, I suspect, will always be how a sandbox gets made. Open worlds are far more prone to exploitation and bugs, and even a huge, competent gamehouse won't catch them all, and the game will in all likelihood fail to meet expectations, as pre-NGE SWG, sans the rose colored glasses, did for most.
I find it funny that people say the genre isnt failing bacause it is still growing. Here is a little historical fact for you guys. One of the greatest civilizations in history was still growing when it fell to to "barbarian tribes". The people of that Empire most likely felt the same way as you, that nothing would stop them. Sadly for them something did, In case you arent up on your history I'm talking about Rome.
Long story short, dont assume something isnt failing just because there are lots of people using it. Ask GM and Dodge how that went for them.
Genre failing is cause adults make video games not those special nerd teens/kids arround 20-25.Adults make those crappy mmorpgs and noone knows how much they consider usefull from player feedbacks if they watch at all and all is money they care cough EA cough
Really, EA is the only one that cares about money? I think every game company cares about money, or they all wouldnt be making games that appeal to the greatest number of people. Really wish people would think a bit more before post their dribble.
Truth is i dnt care wich company how much money hungry is ,i just dont like fact addults stand there and make video games instead of new generations of teens.programmers to show of ideas and stuff.Posting in forums is pointless and stupid and hardly big time developer would actually browse here and take a note.Only think that left for normal users is to cry on forums.
Well hate to tell you but no one is going to invest millions in a game just to loose that money, its a sad disgusting truth. Now Im not in the industry but Im sure there are plenty of young people developing games now. its not who is developing the game that isnt imaginative its those same investors that want their money back that do not want to deviate from what they have seen as working to make that money back.
Those are the people that put any and all creativity on hold in the interest of making money, not the developers.
this is the kind of talk I'm on about..... You are really suggesting that the people who make these games have never played MMORPGS and aren't fans?
No, not anyone can say why wow worked and others "haven't". Unless you can find someone like Michael Jackson who'd throw money away to make an "IDEAL" it wont happen... the books have to balance
But there's a difference between balancing books and turning a profit and a bigger difference between turning a profit and hitting the jack pot.
Are companies looking to make a profit or are they chasing rainbows to hit a jack pot?
What's wrong with telling them to stop chasing rainbows? Hell, the playerbase told CCP to stop chasing rainbows and both CCP and it's playerbase are quite content at the moment and a nice profit is being made. The same thing was done a few years ago with SWG and look at what happened when the devs insisted on chasing their rainbow to find their jackpot.
Unfortunately its not that simple.
The market is saturated with said lackluster game design, leaving us with only 2 options...
1) Continue to pay for lackluster game design because there is nothing else
2) Stop playing MMOs altogether
So far we've been taking option 1, and nothing has changed
If we take option 2, MMOs will fail, investors will think the 'fad' is over, and they'll be afraid to put money into the genre altogether. Resulting in a total failure of the genre.
The current situation of MMOs is like a miniature version of the video gaming crash of the 80s.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't CCP's playerbase tell them to stop making different things and keep making EVE?
"Stop making non-EVE games, we want more EVE!" is exactly the same sort of cloning situation as WOW.
SWG's failure had nothing to do with what type of game was being chased, and everything to do with a company deciding to chase a completely different type of player after a game had launched and the playerbase stabilized. If your game is Type B, your playerbase will be Type B players. Switching your game to Type A mid-flight in the hopes of attracting the Type A players who have already given up on your game is always going to be doomed to failure. It doesn't matter what type of game Type A or B actually are (for example if WOW tried to switch to being a full-on sandbox MMORPG it would fall on its face.)
But again, SWG's failure is a lot different from the product direction choices being discussed here. If their direction had been Type A from the start, they'd have done far better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're forgetting the third option which is to complain about about lackluster design which is something this thread is trying to stifle with the idea that we should put up or shut up.
I'm sitting here saying that I've got money to spend but it's too bad I don't like the current crop of lackluster game titles due to their design.
That still falls under option 1 or 2 I listed before. We can either pay for whats available (1), or for nothing at all (2). The complaints, while a great way to vent frustration, tend to fall on deaf ears because the money we put out speaks louder. So unless some game developer out there takes the first step, things wont likely change.
problem with this thread is that, this genre is not failing, it's thriving.
Dont get me wrong i hate the fact that it is thriving as i prefer games with so much more depth and they are getting simpler and simpler.
But even i can't deny that the genre is going from strengh to strengh.
It was more like drop WiS and get back to FiS because WiS wasn't going to bring a jackpot of new gamers and to continue chasing that rainbow was going to cost them their current players. Their current players were more than happy just floating around in a can than the future prospect of watching their avatar sitting in a space station drinking Quafe.
SWG follows along the same story except where CCP was dependant on EVE players for it's survival - SOE wasn't so much. Even today there are still people calling for a SWG pre-CU rollback...
Both companies were chasing the rainbow of new players rather than making their current players happy and both were making a profit when they did it.
Infact the early days of eve online is a great example of a company that designed it's game around what it's players were doing ingame - meaning that the player's themselves helped design the game - which is contrary to this thread topic of top down designing.
It's not nessessary to be a designer or industry insider to have your say in game design.
I can play a MMORPG and still complain about the lack of good design as I did when I played eve online, but would of preferred to play the older version of SWG.
While it's almost certainly true that there are more people playing MMOs now than there ever has been before, the average MMORPG currently is not thriving.
Right now in the US you basically have one enormous game (WoW), one game that is pretty large (SW:TOR), and a bunch of games that nobody plays. I'd think that having 5-10 games each with about 500k subscribers would be more of a sign of a thriving genre than one game with millions of subscribers, another game with maybe 1-2 million, and a bunch of games that nobody plays, even if there was the same amount of people playing the games.
I think the culprit is that developers no longer develop games expecting people to play a long time, and people no longer buy MMOs expecting to play them more than a few months. When I was playing RIFT I remember seeing something like this a lot:
"I'm playing RIFT until TOR comes out, then playing that until TERA comes out, then playing that until GW2 comes out".
Conversely, I never remember seeing:
"I'm playing Everquest until Asheron's Call comes out, then that until Dark Age of Camelot comes out, etc.". MMOs a decade ago were designed for people who wanted a game that didn't end. Nowadays MMOs are designed to give you a quick dose of enjoyment and then you move on to the next big thing.
What would make this genre not "fail"? You really don't give any insight into what would make it not be "fail". Do you want to have it where it takes forever to achieve very minor things in the game? Do you want more exploration? Good pvp? Those things are already out there, but chances are, people called the game "fail" and it discouraged you from trying it out.
read the OP please.... I'm taking a swipe at all the know-it-all nay sayers and doom mongers here that insist it IS failing, when it clearly isnt.
I love the satirical nature of the OP and recognise the frustration felt with many of the posts here.
He is right that a bloated proportion of posters on this site have quite ridiculous ideals of what can be achieved and delivered on a budget. It seems as if any new game is expected to be the very best of every game which has gone before and on launch day.
This is not too say that every critical post is pointless and valid points are often made between the seas of hype and diatribe.
The genre is clearly a success in terms of generating revenue. My personal opinion is that it is the community itself that has sunk lowest. So much of what people write is negative, often baseless and frequently over emotional. Ever since the demise of SWG a large proportion of posters here seem fixated on ranting relentlessly about their recent gaming disappointment. It can be rather pathetic at times.
On a positive note I've been playing TERA all weekend and having a great time. I can't guarantee it will keep me occupied for the next 5 years but it will probably last me longer than Skyrim (a known epic game).
It will fail when you think rich and famous. $$$ are the problem in genre.
I only think a small and independed developer with creativity and dare be different can safe the genre not the rich and famous with $$$.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Great and Inspirational Post!
I am by no means an "industry expert", just a player with lots of playing experience ove rthe past 15 years, somewhat fed up of what the industry is churning out, dissapointed with all of the games in the last 8 years or so, trying to have some fun in a game that all my friends will enjoy aswell.
How many times have you gone in to a game all hyped up with your guild only to see interest fall within two weeks then one leaves then another and another then yourself, then people get frustrated that their friends are quiting and morale falls for everyone.
This happens in reality all over the place with many different guilds, it is not only yours. The root cause, in my opinion, is the types of games that the Industry is making.
Too narrow too specialised too focussed on one thing and one thing alone, which obviously appeals to specific types of people and not others. But a group of friends is diverse it is made up of many different people especially the older guilds which got origianlly formed in games with much wider scope.
It seems like the industry is approaching this issue in a very impersonal way, not taking under account the nature of players. A big part of playing an MMO is the fact that it can be ahsraed experience with one's friends, but when the game itself only caters to specific personalities and 3/4 of one's friends quit it, then there is no motivation to stay either, the game becomes unfun even for thos ethat initially may have like it.
I do nto know if this is due to the pressures develloment Team undergoe, I do not know if this is due to Investment practices forcing Devellopers to excute the same plan over and over without having any freedom to be innovative or creative being constrtained by the same formula, or if simpy as you say the big talents spend more time writting Blogs and Giving seminars rather than making games.
But the situation does need to change.
That being said, I have had the urge to make such a game myself for 10 years now, about 7 years ago I started puting on paper my ideas, brainstormed my butt off, played things out in my mind , discussed with some very close and trustworthy friends who also play MMO's for 15 years, droped some ideas, refined others, and a year ago I decided to go forth in realising this goal, I am now back in University learning the skills in Game Devellopment..
The good thing is that during these 10 years no one else made that game, albeit I have seen many of my ideas in many separate games in one form or another, it made me realise through the process that Ideas are not unique in reality, everyone can have the same ideas, yet from the same basic ideas, you could have 10 different results of games or more, it also depends on your vision and synthesis of these ideas, or if you will implementation.
I should be seeking Investment in the near future, in a presentation room near you, and if the investors/publishers are narrow minded and intransigeant, well then independent devellopment will be what will need to happen.
Sa as players we should not denigrate Indies please automatically, they may not have the Chuck Norris Ads all over Yutube, but that does not mean that they can't make good fun games that many here want to be playing in reality.
Yes I agree some Indie companies have dissapointed us in the near past, but then again AAA companies have been dissapointing us for the past 8 years or so too. Yet when we see a new game made by AAA companies we all flock to them no questions asked like bees towards honney, and we get dissapointed anyways. Lets not generalise.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
pandas are the future! devs just ran out of ideas lol