A classic instance is goin to feel hard to start with, but as YOU learn so you performance in the instance improves. What we want to see now is groups struggling bit eventually becoming victorious. Wiping lots of times on a first run is music to our ears. People complaining about this show their inexperience. Time to move away from the mindless/ no difficulty instances.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
And to imagine Explorable Mode is supposed to be even harder.
Best news...
It was about time some game retained the difficulty of old games
Everything is just too damn easy these days..I miss the times I spent months trying to beat the game...I try to mitigate this by handicaping myself in modern games (like finishing F.E.A.R. without saves,medkits only after fights,no slowmo, only with pistols on hardest setting.. or sometimes with the slowmode(but on touchpad)
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
A classic instance is goin to feel hard to start with, but as YOU learn so you performance in the instance improves. What we want to see now is groups struggling bit eventually becoming victorious. Wiping lots of times on a first run is music to our ears. People complaining about this show their inexperience. Time to move away from the mindless/ no difficulty instances.
I tend to agree. I'm not really a challenge junkie, but I remember being totally let down when I first started running WoW instances because it was quite a bit easier than I'd been led to believe. It's good to know that I won't be able to coast through GW2's content the way I have in previous games.
That being said, I would really like to get confirmation on whether or not they were running this particular dungeon in Story Mode or in Explorable Mode. Story mode is supposed to provide just a moderate challenge so that it doesn't become an impediment to continuing your character's personal journey. The Explorable mode is supposed to be the deep end of the pool for everyone really wanting to test their mettle.
If this was Story Mode, maybe it could use a little toning down. The only way we'll know for certain though is once we can start running it ourselves with characters we've progressed all the way from level one. That would be a much fairer indicator of the dungeon's actual level of difficulty.
So, Story Mode should be moderately tough, and save the brutality for Explorable.
A classic instance is goin to feel hard to start with, but as YOU learn so you performance in the instance improves. What we want to see now is groups struggling bit eventually becoming victorious. Wiping lots of times on a first run is music to our ears. People complaining about this show their inexperience. Time to move away from the mindless/ no difficulty instances.
I tend to agree. I'm not really a challenge junkie, but I remember being totally let down when I first started running WoW instances because it was quite a bit easier than I'd been led to believe. It's good to know that I won't be able to coast through GW2's content the way I have in previous games.
That being said, I would really like to get confirmation on whether or not they were running this particular dungeon in Story Mode or in Explorable Mode. Story mode is supposed to provide just a moderate challenge so that it doesn't become an impediment to continuing your character's personal journey. The Explorable mode is supposed to be the deep end of the pool for everyone really wanting to test their mettle.
If this was Story Mode, maybe it could use a little toning down. The only way we'll know for certain though is once we can start running it ourselves with characters we've progressed all the way from level one. That would be a much fairer indicator of the dungeon's actual level of difficulty.
So, Story Mode should be moderately tough, and save the brutality for Explorable.
I feel the same. I'm not completely against them nerfing dungeon bosses, I just don't think it should happen anytime soon. Give people a month or two to learn their characters and the dungeons and figure out if it really needs a nerf or if people just need time to learn the game. If after people have had the time, it's still so difficult it excludes large portions of the population, THEN look at rebalancing.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Isn't your story about your characters heroic journey? Or are we going to dum that down and make it about your characters milk run to the corner store?
Wasn't too happy to see a person have to confront the last boss with no armor on because of the broken armor thing. He couldn't leave to repair because it would have locked him from the instance.
Take note trolls- THAT is a serious issue the game has.
------------------
Too late. HA! Eric Flannum just posted this on guru:
You can leave the dungeon and come back as long as the entire party doesn't leave. We had a bug in the beta that would sometimes lock out the party leader. It's fixed now.
Ok , now Im worried.
These guys have spies listening to me bitch to my wife at 1am?
omg. go play battletoads or megaman 9 and gripe about that instead please. less q q here.
What you are describing as a challenge is just time sink and tedium. Only because you add more tedious activities in a game doesn't make it challenging. Challenge is in the activity itself and not artifical blocks put in way of that activity and your progression.
Well you said the magic word : "progression". Which means you won't get all you want in one day, you will have to work to be a good player. Which takes efforts and time. This is how you will learn to be better, and finaly be able to kill evil creatures.
Do I need to remind you that RPG games are all about realism? and immersion? Do you expect to get out of a dungeon without any broken parts of your armor or even a broken leg? Yeah you could expect this, but only when you will become a real hero. Keep working.
RPG games are about realism? You're in a fantasy, made up world casting spells, fighting with swords, trying to kill Monsters. RPG's are about fantasy, not realism. It's the immersion that mmo's need badly, as so many have little to none, and i agree that having difficult, but with experience beatable, content is important in immersing yourself in the role you play. Many people though don't play MMO's to play a role, only want to hack and slash, action zerg. That's why so many games don't have high subs-they try to cater to both and when the action gamers leave for the next game, leaves a mess for those that want to be part of a world and community for the long-term. Hopefully, Anet won't nerf/change to make heppy the gamers that won't be sticking around anyway.
it always amazes me on these comment forums how so many people can come to absolute rock solid conclusions about games without ever having actuall played the game
"omg omg, because youve told me about x, y and z in this game, its bound to fail!!"
i wonder if its something in the genetic make up fo your average geek that makes us so arrogant and absolute in out opinion!!
"MY opinion is always right! anyone who dares dis agree with this conclusion that i have jumped to with the most minor of evidence is a complete idiot! "
It embarrasing to read sometimes.
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
Originally posted by ropenice RPG games are about realism? You're in a fantasy, made up world casting spells, fighting with swords, trying to kill Monsters. RPG's are about fantasy, not realism. It's the immersion that mmo's need badly, as so many have little to none, and i agree that having difficult, but with experience beatable, content is important in immersing yourself in the role you play. Many people though don't play MMO's to play a role, only want to hack and slash, action zerg. That's why so many games don't have high subs-they try to cater to both and when the action gamers leave for the next game, leaves a mess for those that want to be part of a world and community for the long-term. Hopefully, Anet won't nerf/change to make heppy the gamers that won't be sticking around anyway.
well you didnt get what i meant, of course it's a fantasy but you need to beleive in what you're doing in that fantasy.
Example : I go into a dungeon and I see that monsters are waiting there, doing nothing... well I like to beleive they have something to do all day long. This is the kind of realism I'm talking about... Fantasy or not, I want to see those monster live like if they were real monster, not just "trash mobs".
Same thing about fighting a big boss monster, I want to get hurt and feel the consequences. But if I'm a real hero, with talent, this challenge will be easier for me. And if I'm a bad hero (or player), I don't deserve to kill the beast. This is realism and immersion.
We don't send a baby to war. Too bad if you don't play well, just learn like we all did when we were noobs. What dosen't kill you makes you stronger, well... when you're gonna resurect, try to get stronger.
Wasn't too happy to see a person have to confront the last boss with no armor on because of the broken armor thing. He couldn't leave to repair because it would have locked him from the instance.
Take note trolls- THAT is a serious issue the game has.
This is true. Hopefully they'll just put an armor repair person near one of the portals, or allow people to carry kits with them. Because it's not about being hard at this point, but being brutal.
I don't know, after years of playing MMOs where the only skill required to complete a dungeon was to show up I wouldn't mind a bit of brutality (and randomness). Also, if the dungeon is brutal, just think of the statisfaction of finally completeing it, something that is sorely missing from many games today.
I can see that it could get annoying though... maybe if they had armour repair kits but they were like 5 times the price of an NPC repair, so you could use them in an emergency, but wouldn't want to rely on them. This is assuimg the repair price is meaningful (i.e. not like Rift).
Some of these replies just make me want to scream.
I don't think I've ever actually been upset reading anything on these forums for the last 7+ years, until this.
I pray to the gods of GW2 that ArenaNet will not listen to the whiners and dumb down the dungeon content to the levels of today's MMO games. I don't want to complete a dungeon my first run though, I don't want to be able to walk through an entire dungeon half alseep because it's so easy.
There are 100s of EASY MMO games out there already, please, please let us gamers who enjoy challenging content have just 1 game of our own!
Even GW2's death penalty is nothing compared to what we used to have. How about dying ONE time and losing every single thing you had on you at the time and being placed in a hostile location in the middle of no where? How about dying once and everything you were carrying can be looted by the monsters that killed you while you run around looking for a healer?
Thinking that GW2's death penalty is harsh (even if you had to quit the dungeon to repair and had to wait to do it again, which is not the case) is just laughable to us that actually have played games with harsh dealth penalties.
And another thing, those death penalties, while frustrating and maddening sometimes, made the game better and made us better gamers because of them.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I would say, that dungeons look too easy :] you shouldn't make the dungeons so easy after playing two days all game. Good fight and its techniques comes with good experience. Also you have to know better your enemy before saying , that he is too hard to kill.
Keep in mind that most of the people who participate in a dungeon were new to the game, I mean if you start a character from 0 to 30 you will have enough knowledge to do it successfully.
I mean they were pretty bad.
Check this guy he was also new but they did a better work and finish the dungeon in 30 min:
Here's MikeB's (aka Fony) walkthrough of the Dungeon. Doesn't seem that hard in the Story Mode version, seeing how he didn't even need to figure out certain boss mechanics.
Here's MikeB's (aka Fony) walkthrough of the Dungeon. Doesn't seem that hard in the Story Mode version, seeing how he didn't even need to figure out certain boss mechanics.
Honestly, the fact that the dungeons are THAT difficult is going to be an issue. I can see them scaling them back in difficulty and later adding a hard mode.
In the end economy always triumphs. If the dungeons are too dangerous, 90% will avoid them in the long run, which would make it a massive waste of money invested in this part.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So excited for this game! thanks for the article, and in the last paragraph second to last sentense theres a typo. It says them and I think its supposed to be they?
"Overall the dungeon was great. The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot. Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party. I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "
This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time? "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.
"Overall the dungeon was great. The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot. Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party. I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "
This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time? "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.
It's just basic sense that you're more likely to give stuff away when you know that your character will be gone the next day.
"Overall the dungeon was great. The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot. Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party. I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "
This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time? "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.
It used to happen all the time. Maybe if your first MMO was WoW you wouldnt understand the idea behind a good and proper community. Or maybe I just got lucky growing up in mmo's on the Solclaim server in Asherons Call. People actually helped other people just because it was the right thing to do.
That said I dont see what happened happening in live. Not with strangers. But thats because the idea of community simply doesnt exist in MMO's outside of guilds anymore. And even then you have to find the right guild.
"Overall the dungeon was great. The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot. Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party. I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "
This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time? "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.
It's just basic sense that you're more likely to give stuff away when you know that your character will be gone the next day.
Or, you know, you can play with friends or guild members, who would also trade items around. MMO's are social games, and can be played with more than just random greedy people.
I do wonder though, if the story modes are 5 man, what happens to players that do wish to simply play on their own? Will they not be able to continue their personal story? Or what if a year after release a new player tried the game, or you roll an alt, and are having a hard time finding a group for the story mode and as such become 'stuck'?
Comments
Can I haz a button dat killz da bosses auto? Liek maybe it costs like some gold or sometin. I dunno. Why have a boss wit 50k hp instead of 10? hp
Isn;t it an artifishial barriar? I mean u know hard is not fun right?
Dis just looks 2 hard yano?
I rly am ready to put down farmville 2 play dis game. Pls Arenanet make it assessible 4 me.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Best news...
It was about time some game retained the difficulty of old games
Everything is just too damn easy these days..I miss the times I spent months trying to beat the game...I try to mitigate this by handicaping myself in modern games (like finishing F.E.A.R. without saves,medkits only after fights,no slowmo, only with pistols on hardest setting.. or sometimes with the slowmode(but on touchpad)
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I tend to agree. I'm not really a challenge junkie, but I remember being totally let down when I first started running WoW instances because it was quite a bit easier than I'd been led to believe. It's good to know that I won't be able to coast through GW2's content the way I have in previous games.
That being said, I would really like to get confirmation on whether or not they were running this particular dungeon in Story Mode or in Explorable Mode. Story mode is supposed to provide just a moderate challenge so that it doesn't become an impediment to continuing your character's personal journey. The Explorable mode is supposed to be the deep end of the pool for everyone really wanting to test their mettle.
If this was Story Mode, maybe it could use a little toning down. The only way we'll know for certain though is once we can start running it ourselves with characters we've progressed all the way from level one. That would be a much fairer indicator of the dungeon's actual level of difficulty.
So, Story Mode should be moderately tough, and save the brutality for Explorable.
I feel the same. I'm not completely against them nerfing dungeon bosses, I just don't think it should happen anytime soon. Give people a month or two to learn their characters and the dungeons and figure out if it really needs a nerf or if people just need time to learn the game. If after people have had the time, it's still so difficult it excludes large portions of the population, THEN look at rebalancing.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Isn't your story about your characters heroic journey? Or are we going to dum that down and make it about your characters milk run to the corner store?
Archlinux ftw
5 mi friend
omg. go play battletoads or megaman 9 and gripe about that instead please. less q q here.
RPG games are about realism? You're in a fantasy, made up world casting spells, fighting with swords, trying to kill Monsters. RPG's are about fantasy, not realism. It's the immersion that mmo's need badly, as so many have little to none, and i agree that having difficult, but with experience beatable, content is important in immersing yourself in the role you play. Many people though don't play MMO's to play a role, only want to hack and slash, action zerg. That's why so many games don't have high subs-they try to cater to both and when the action gamers leave for the next game, leaves a mess for those that want to be part of a world and community for the long-term. Hopefully, Anet won't nerf/change to make heppy the gamers that won't be sticking around anyway.
it always amazes me on these comment forums how so many people can come to absolute rock solid conclusions about games without ever having actuall played the game
"omg omg, because youve told me about x, y and z in this game, its bound to fail!!"
i wonder if its something in the genetic make up fo your average geek that makes us so arrogant and absolute in out opinion!!
"MY opinion is always right! anyone who dares dis agree with this conclusion that i have jumped to with the most minor of evidence is a complete idiot! "
It embarrasing to read sometimes.
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
well you didnt get what i meant, of course it's a fantasy but you need to beleive in what you're doing in that fantasy.
Example : I go into a dungeon and I see that monsters are waiting there, doing nothing... well I like to beleive they have something to do all day long. This is the kind of realism I'm talking about... Fantasy or not, I want to see those monster live like if they were real monster, not just "trash mobs".
Same thing about fighting a big boss monster, I want to get hurt and feel the consequences. But if I'm a real hero, with talent, this challenge will be easier for me. And if I'm a bad hero (or player), I don't deserve to kill the beast. This is realism and immersion.
We don't send a baby to war. Too bad if you don't play well, just learn like we all did when we were noobs. What dosen't kill you makes you stronger, well... when you're gonna resurect, try to get stronger.
I don't know, after years of playing MMOs where the only skill required to complete a dungeon was to show up I wouldn't mind a bit of brutality (and randomness). Also, if the dungeon is brutal, just think of the statisfaction of finally completeing it, something that is sorely missing from many games today.
I can see that it could get annoying though... maybe if they had armour repair kits but they were like 5 times the price of an NPC repair, so you could use them in an emergency, but wouldn't want to rely on them. This is assuimg the repair price is meaningful (i.e. not like Rift).
Some of these replies just make me want to scream.
I don't think I've ever actually been upset reading anything on these forums for the last 7+ years, until this.
I pray to the gods of GW2 that ArenaNet will not listen to the whiners and dumb down the dungeon content to the levels of today's MMO games. I don't want to complete a dungeon my first run though, I don't want to be able to walk through an entire dungeon half alseep because it's so easy.
There are 100s of EASY MMO games out there already, please, please let us gamers who enjoy challenging content have just 1 game of our own!
Even GW2's death penalty is nothing compared to what we used to have. How about dying ONE time and losing every single thing you had on you at the time and being placed in a hostile location in the middle of no where? How about dying once and everything you were carrying can be looted by the monsters that killed you while you run around looking for a healer?
Thinking that GW2's death penalty is harsh (even if you had to quit the dungeon to repair and had to wait to do it again, which is not the case) is just laughable to us that actually have played games with harsh dealth penalties.
And another thing, those death penalties, while frustrating and maddening sometimes, made the game better and made us better gamers because of them.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I would say, that dungeons look too easy :] you shouldn't make the dungeons so easy after playing two days all game. Good fight and its techniques comes with good experience. Also you have to know better your enemy before saying , that he is too hard to kill.
Keep in mind that most of the people who participate in a dungeon were new to the game, I mean if you start a character from 0 to 30 you will have enough knowledge to do it successfully.
I mean they were pretty bad.
Check this guy he was also new but they did a better work and finish the dungeon in 30 min:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bbBUFqZ9A
Here's MikeB's (aka Fony) walkthrough of the Dungeon. Doesn't seem that hard in the Story Mode version, seeing how he didn't even need to figure out certain boss mechanics.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bbBUFqZ9A
Ninja'd... ^_^
No like the guy of the other video running to the boss again and again.... when the bosses were together with the shild active ROFL.
There is already a hard mode o.O
and then what the hard mode is too hard?
In the end economy always triumphs. If the dungeons are too dangerous, 90% will avoid them in the long run, which would make it a massive waste of money invested in this part.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So excited for this game! thanks for the article, and in the last paragraph second to last sentense theres a typo. It says them and I think its supposed to be they?
"Overall the dungeon was great. The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot. Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party. I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "
This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time? "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.
It's just basic sense that you're more likely to give stuff away when you know that your character will be gone the next day.
It used to happen all the time. Maybe if your first MMO was WoW you wouldnt understand the idea behind a good and proper community. Or maybe I just got lucky growing up in mmo's on the Solclaim server in Asherons Call. People actually helped other people just because it was the right thing to do.
That said I dont see what happened happening in live. Not with strangers. But thats because the idea of community simply doesnt exist in MMO's outside of guilds anymore. And even then you have to find the right guild.
Or, you know, you can play with friends or guild members, who would also trade items around. MMO's are social games, and can be played with more than just random greedy people.
I do wonder though, if the story modes are 5 man, what happens to players that do wish to simply play on their own? Will they not be able to continue their personal story? Or what if a year after release a new player tried the game, or you roll an alt, and are having a hard time finding a group for the story mode and as such become 'stuck'?
Looks good to me, thanks for the writeup.