I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
This is what remains to be seen. Least to me. Will their classes work to the ideal or will there still be a need for "lf1m [class x] please".
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
Ya read up on the game some more lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
So just dodge the freaking attacks, come on man think, the game is not based on tank and spank. There will also be beneficial spells to allies and skill combinations, seriously has everyone here only ever played WoW? Can you not comprehend that the game does not have a holy trinity because it allows you to MOVE OUT OF THE WAY. The game is based on a NEW and INNOVATIVE system that give someone the ability to dodge the attacks by not standing still (i'm not talking about the skill per se but simply the trait of avoiding attacks in real time). This has NEVER been done before, except in almost every single player game ever! How is it that hard to understand?
There are other games with dodge and/or block mechanics-DDO, CO, maybe AoC (but can't remember-was a long time ago i played it). GW2 might do it in a different way, but not a new thing.
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
Ya read up on the game some more lol.
So by switching out a particulair weapon a player may have healing spells attached to said weapon. Aren't the groups going to assign certain players to heal?
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
I do advise that you read up more on the game systems, but in short I will say that it is not possible for ANYONE to full-heal a group - not a Warrior and not an Elementalist. There is no existing allied heal in the game more powerful than a character's self-heal.
The point of GW2 is not to enable "everyone" to heal a group, as you put it, but on giving everyone the tools to avoid taking damage themselves. That's why there is a dodge function, for starters.
GW2 is set up very differently from your typical MMO. There is NO taunting, the most protective heavy armor profession has fewer HP than one of the cloth-wearing professions. There is NO allied-targeted healing, only AOE HoTs that do not mitigate more damage than is taken if each player isn't actively managing their own damage aversion.
If you are needing to heal all the time then you are not playing the game right. It is about dodging hits, responding to situations, debuffing enemies, buffing your friends, not standing in the circles etc. If you do it right you shouldn't need many heals.
So by switching out a particulair weapon a player may have healing spells attached to said weapon. Aren't the groups going to assign certain players to heal?
They may have a couple of healing spells attached to said weapon, but the amount of healing would not be sufficient to keep a party alive, and the cooldowns would not enable them to mitigate more than one attack, at best, for several seconds. So if a group tried to assign a player to "heal", that player would neither be able to heal through the encounter, nor would they be able to do much of anything else (likely while watching their party wipe) while their weak allied heals were on cooldown.
What is far more likely to happen is that, being reasonable people, they would swap their weapon out (which you can do in-combat, or switch attunements if an elementalist) and contribute to combat in another way. OR, seeing that the party is in trouble and the "healer" has their skillbar on cooldown, another reasonable player might realize that they, too, have a couple of healing spells on one of THEIR weapons, and throw THAT down, and then what do you know?! You have others assuming multiple roles in the party, just as ANet intended.
Honestly, the more I see this question raised, the more I think 'they're just going to have to see it for themselves'.
The holy trinity (tank,healer,damage) really is only needed when you have fairly stagnant combat (someone is always getting hit instead of the rest of the team, or a boss is basically just a dps race). You don't really have the same type of fights in GW2 (with the exception of the dps race).
For example, healing isn't going to help a whole lot if you have fireballs coming at you that can nearly 1 shot your entire team. Instead it would be better have a guardian or mesmer setup shields / illusions to deflect them, while someone else either grabs a cannon or takes out the threat. Or, if you're frontline fighters are getting hit a lot, you could have your ranged casters (if they are elementalists) switch to water attunement and cast water spells (heals allies, hurts enemies), while the frontliners get their defenses back up.
There won't be much in the way of 'strong heal, stronger heal II, best heal III' type skills, it'll require more thought as to figuring out which skills will offer the best support for which situation (ie a skill which turns conditions into healing won't do anything against an enemy that isn't using conditions, however if they are using ranged attacks there are skills to deflect those to some extent, etc.)
Removing the healing class is just a con. Now it's just a race to kill or be killed.
The trinity has worked because it's a tried and true way of doing things. The challenge is to figure out a way to make things work so that you're not stuck if you're missing one of the three, not to just eliminate two of them all together.
I think both sides have argued the benefits and downfalls of each system. OP, its up to you now in what are you looking for in a game? Personally, I'm done with the trinity, and up for a more actiony type of game where there is still group cohesion and benefit. I believe GW2 offers that for me, but only time will tell.
Removing the healing class is just a con. Now it's just a race to kill or be killed.
The trinity has worked because it's a tried and true way of doing things. The challenge is to figure out a way to make things work so that you're not stuck if you're missing one of the three, not to just eliminate two of them all together.
If now it's a race to kill or be killed (and I don't even think it is), what was it before? A race to kill the boss before your mana ran out? Before too many dps died in the fire? Before the enrage timer? A race to kill the healer by outpacing their healing output?
One thing you have to realize is that there's nothing magical about trinity combat. A game doesn't have to be based on tank/healer/dps. You can have more factors or fewer. A FPS is a perfect example of a Unity game where everyone is a DPS. You can have a game like EQ where an Enchanter was extremely valuable due to their buffing, debuffing and crowd control, and go an entire night and not tank, heal, or damage anything.
Yes the holy trinity works. Yes there are games like Rift which are trying to make it so it's easier to have all three legs, but that doesn't mean it's the only system.
With GW2 you can still have roles. You can skew your limited skillbar towards damage, control or support, and work with other people to get through an encounter. But the pure power isn't there, and people aren't forced to play a certain way. You don't need someone to play a healer because you need a healer. You don't have to DPS through a maximum damage rotation and only move if you're in the fire. People can share these burdens.
It's not a con, it's just a different system. Both are valid. MMOs have been locked into one way of doing things for so long it's hard for people to even conceptualize doing it a different way. GW2 will prove that it's possible.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Removing the healing class is just a con. Now it's just a race to kill or be killed.
The trinity has worked because it's a tried and true way of doing things. The challenge is to figure out a way to make things work so that you're not stuck if you're missing one of the three, not to just eliminate two of them all together.
If now it's a race to kill or be killed (and I don't even think it is), what was it before? A race to kill the boss before your mana ran out? Before too many dps died in the fire? Before the enrage timer? A race to kill the healer by outpacing their healing output?
One thing you have to realize is that there's nothing magical about trinity combat. A game doesn't have to be based on tank/healer/dps. You can have more factors or fewer. A FPS is a perfect example of a Unity game where everyone is a DPS. You can have a game like EQ where an Enchanter was extremely valuable due to their buffing, debuffing and crowd control, and go an entire night and not tank, heal, or damage anything.
Yes the holy trinity works. Yes there are games like Rift which are trying to make it so it's easier to have all three legs, but that doesn't mean it's the only system.
With GW2 you can still have roles. You can skew your limited skillbar towards damage, control or support, and work with other people to get through an encounter. But the pure power isn't there, and people aren't forced to play a certain way. You don't need someone to play a healer because you need a healer. You don't have to DPS through a maximum damage rotation and only move if you're in the fire. People can share these burdens.
It's not a con, it's just a different system. Both are valid. MMOs have been locked into one way of doing things for so long it's hard for people to even conceptualize doing it a different way. GW2 will prove that it's possible.
Conceptualize, damn you Cali I had to look that word up, did you eat a dictionary for breakfast? lol
How can people NOT think it's possible? There are plenty of cooperative games out there already without a trinity system.
Because some people are fixed to a play style and think its the be all and end all, they are not able to think outside the box. This type of thing happens in the workplace, try and change working practice and the unions/workforce go up in arms with negative views.
well how about not slacking of guardian player so much if you look it carefully and what he typoes on chat hes group already agroed the boss before he was even there, thats pro gaming from shite dps in any game and yet ok they wiped well what a suprise when tank wasnt around . then second try running back and again the dps is whacking the boss before the tank gets there. so my point is, its braindamaging trying to actually group play these games nor raid when people with your group or raid are twats like that.
I sort of get what you're saying but I want to point out that there's no dedicated tanking. There are 2 guardians (heavy armor), a thief (medium armor) and a mesmer (light armor). None of the guardians can create a bar dedicated to tanking even if they tried. Therefore if they attempt to tank, they will die a lot...as we saw.Also, the rest of the group cannot provide enough support healing and protection to allow a guardian to tank because there's no way to build a dedicated healing/support bar either.
i know that there is no tank class but the vid shows they oviously have wiped there already few times before it starts and they are talking about someone taking damage first blood to maybe make it down easier and this guys says he can do that so oviously they were trying some different tactics but like always not everybody listens.
I like that everybody is responsbile for themsleves. No excuses for slackers.
well yea kinda of going in the right direction wich is skill that matter at the end of the tunnel but is that guils wars 2 already that gives that opporturnity to players to be good how they play with theiur characters and not what they wear is question. im sure in future we gona see this concept more than classic tank heal dps combo for sure.
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
No class will be able to full heal a group. Every class has access to a boon called Regeneration - http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regeneration which is what the only AE heals are.
The amount of healing this regeneration does is very insignificant compared to the self heals that everyone has to have on their hotbar. Also this boon does not stack, except in duration. So having a group full of players specced with this boon is fairly useless.
Thats why everyone is saying - there is no healer. Noone will spec into 'healing', you can spec into having the regeneration boon, just like every other profession (Mesmers do have access to it, but its harder to trigger than other professions).
Since there is no dedicated healer, it also goes without saying that there is no tank. Every class has its own damage avoidance skills and there are no taunts. So its about working as a team to stop the incoming damage.
I'm more or less wondering how ranged skills work in a PVP situation, are spells aimed or do they auto follow their target?
When you target someone, and you send a fireball, those fireballs automatically go to your target's location, but your target can still step out of it's path.
So spells are auto aimed at your target, but they don't auto follow.
How can people NOT think it's possible? There are plenty of cooperative games out there already without a trinity system.
Because some people are fixed to a play style and think its the be all and end all, they are not able to think outside the box. This type of thing happens in the workplace, try and change working practice and the unions/workforce go up in arms with negative views.
Or the idea of a self healing dps zerg bores some of us to tears. Some people got what I was getting at and addressed it, some people took it as an opportunity to demonstrate their superiority to the masses by being enlightened beyond the holy trinity.
I was asking for, and in some posts received, information regarding the group dynamic in this game. i knew very little about it to start so my question came from an honest place and I didn't play the original. I guess I'll have to wait and see. This thread both confimed and laid to rest my concerns. I have found the paradox.
I am still concerned that groups are going to be nothing but a dps zerg, due to some of the responses I have hope that this will not be the case. Thank you all for your responses.
ps wow did not invent the trinity. And you are not the ubermench because you're on board with an all dps class game. this was not for everyone.
Comments
I still don't see how the so called Holy Trinity will go by the wayside. The min maxers will always want to have a group member that is more invested in Heals/Tanking when navigating a dungeon or through competitive PvP.
This is what remains to be seen. Least to me. Will their classes work to the ideal or will there still be a need for "lf1m [class x] please".
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
What would "being more invested in heals/tanking" look like? We have access to the skill and weaponsets of the professions, so elaborate on how one would do this?
So everyone regardless of class will be able to heal a full group? Or is it everyman for themselves? I'll have to read up on it more. Are their no talent trees? Or points that you can allot into healing/damage/tanking skills? I understand that every class gets a heal, but aren't certain classes given more options to heal? Will a Warrior be able to heal a group as well as a Sorc?
Ya read up on the game some more lol.I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
There are other games with dodge and/or block mechanics-DDO, CO, maybe AoC (but can't remember-was a long time ago i played it). GW2 might do it in a different way, but not a new thing.
So by switching out a particulair weapon a player may have healing spells attached to said weapon. Aren't the groups going to assign certain players to heal?
I do advise that you read up more on the game systems, but in short I will say that it is not possible for ANYONE to full-heal a group - not a Warrior and not an Elementalist. There is no existing allied heal in the game more powerful than a character's self-heal.
The point of GW2 is not to enable "everyone" to heal a group, as you put it, but on giving everyone the tools to avoid taking damage themselves. That's why there is a dodge function, for starters.
GW2 is set up very differently from your typical MMO. There is NO taunting, the most protective heavy armor profession has fewer HP than one of the cloth-wearing professions. There is NO allied-targeted healing, only AOE HoTs that do not mitigate more damage than is taken if each player isn't actively managing their own damage aversion.
Anyway, yes, do read up on it
.
It is about dodging hits, responding to situations, debuffing enemies, buffing your friends, not standing in the circles etc.
If you do it right you shouldn't need many heals.
They may have a couple of healing spells attached to said weapon, but the amount of healing would not be sufficient to keep a party alive, and the cooldowns would not enable them to mitigate more than one attack, at best, for several seconds. So if a group tried to assign a player to "heal", that player would neither be able to heal through the encounter, nor would they be able to do much of anything else (likely while watching their party wipe) while their weak allied heals were on cooldown.
What is far more likely to happen is that, being reasonable people, they would swap their weapon out (which you can do in-combat, or switch attunements if an elementalist) and contribute to combat in another way. OR, seeing that the party is in trouble and the "healer" has their skillbar on cooldown, another reasonable player might realize that they, too, have a couple of healing spells on one of THEIR weapons, and throw THAT down, and then what do you know?! You have others assuming multiple roles in the party, just as ANet intended.
Blizzard didn't invent the Trinity.
Honestly, the more I see this question raised, the more I think 'they're just going to have to see it for themselves'.
The holy trinity (tank,healer,damage) really is only needed when you have fairly stagnant combat (someone is always getting hit instead of the rest of the team, or a boss is basically just a dps race). You don't really have the same type of fights in GW2 (with the exception of the dps race).
For example, healing isn't going to help a whole lot if you have fireballs coming at you that can nearly 1 shot your entire team. Instead it would be better have a guardian or mesmer setup shields / illusions to deflect them, while someone else either grabs a cannon or takes out the threat. Or, if you're frontline fighters are getting hit a lot, you could have your ranged casters (if they are elementalists) switch to water attunement and cast water spells (heals allies, hurts enemies), while the frontliners get their defenses back up.
There won't be much in the way of 'strong heal, stronger heal II, best heal III' type skills, it'll require more thought as to figuring out which skills will offer the best support for which situation (ie a skill which turns conditions into healing won't do anything against an enemy that isn't using conditions, however if they are using ranged attacks there are skills to deflect those to some extent, etc.)
Removing the healing class is just a con. Now it's just a race to kill or be killed.
The trinity has worked because it's a tried and true way of doing things. The challenge is to figure out a way to make things work so that you're not stuck if you're missing one of the three, not to just eliminate two of them all together.
I think both sides have argued the benefits and downfalls of each system. OP, its up to you now in what are you looking for in a game? Personally, I'm done with the trinity, and up for a more actiony type of game where there is still group cohesion and benefit. I believe GW2 offers that for me, but only time will tell.
People have very limited imaginations.
Controller
Dps
Buff/debuffs
Damage soaker/ IE tanky dps
Heal speced engi/elementalist/guardian
AOE Buff specced warrior
Controller/disable spec thief
Aoe spec'd engineer or elementalist
tanky dps/soak necromancer
Dot/pet spec'd necromancer
debuffing necromancer
I even heard you can spec elementalist to be tanky
specs and roles still matter. You're going to need to make sure you have a good diversity of spec to do well with pve.
If now it's a race to kill or be killed (and I don't even think it is), what was it before? A race to kill the boss before your mana ran out? Before too many dps died in the fire? Before the enrage timer? A race to kill the healer by outpacing their healing output?
One thing you have to realize is that there's nothing magical about trinity combat. A game doesn't have to be based on tank/healer/dps. You can have more factors or fewer. A FPS is a perfect example of a Unity game where everyone is a DPS. You can have a game like EQ where an Enchanter was extremely valuable due to their buffing, debuffing and crowd control, and go an entire night and not tank, heal, or damage anything.
Yes the holy trinity works. Yes there are games like Rift which are trying to make it so it's easier to have all three legs, but that doesn't mean it's the only system.
With GW2 you can still have roles. You can skew your limited skillbar towards damage, control or support, and work with other people to get through an encounter. But the pure power isn't there, and people aren't forced to play a certain way. You don't need someone to play a healer because you need a healer. You don't have to DPS through a maximum damage rotation and only move if you're in the fire. People can share these burdens.
It's not a con, it's just a different system. Both are valid. MMOs have been locked into one way of doing things for so long it's hard for people to even conceptualize doing it a different way. GW2 will prove that it's possible.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Conceptualize, damn you Cali I had to look that word up, did you eat a dictionary for breakfast? lol
How can people NOT think it's possible? There are plenty of cooperative games out there already without a trinity system.
Because some people are fixed to a play style and think its the be all and end all, they are not able to think outside the box. This type of thing happens in the workplace, try and change working practice and the unions/workforce go up in arms with negative views.
i know that there is no tank class but the vid shows they oviously have wiped there already few times before it starts and they are talking about someone taking damage first blood to maybe make it down easier and this guys says he can do that so oviously they were trying some different tactics but like always not everybody listens.
I like that everybody is responsbile for themsleves. No excuses for slackers.
Guild Wars 2 Thief Guide - Elder Scrolls Online Guide
well yea kinda of going in the right direction wich is skill that matter at the end of the tunnel but is that guils wars 2 already that gives that opporturnity to players to be good how they play with theiur characters and not what they wear is question. im sure in future we gona see this concept more than classic tank heal dps combo for sure.
No class will be able to full heal a group. Every class has access to a boon called Regeneration - http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regeneration which is what the only AE heals are.
The amount of healing this regeneration does is very insignificant compared to the self heals that everyone has to have on their hotbar. Also this boon does not stack, except in duration. So having a group full of players specced with this boon is fairly useless.
Thats why everyone is saying - there is no healer. Noone will spec into 'healing', you can spec into having the regeneration boon, just like every other profession (Mesmers do have access to it, but its harder to trigger than other professions).
Since there is no dedicated healer, it also goes without saying that there is no tank. Every class has its own damage avoidance skills and there are no taunts. So its about working as a team to stop the incoming damage.
When you target someone, and you send a fireball, those fireballs automatically go to your target's location, but your target can still step out of it's path.
So spells are auto aimed at your target, but they don't auto follow.
Or the idea of a self healing dps zerg bores some of us to tears. Some people got what I was getting at and addressed it, some people took it as an opportunity to demonstrate their superiority to the masses by being enlightened beyond the holy trinity.
I was asking for, and in some posts received, information regarding the group dynamic in this game. i knew very little about it to start so my question came from an honest place and I didn't play the original. I guess I'll have to wait and see. This thread both confimed and laid to rest my concerns. I have found the paradox.
I am still concerned that groups are going to be nothing but a dps zerg, due to some of the responses I have hope that this will not be the case. Thank you all for your responses.
ps wow did not invent the trinity. And you are not the ubermench because you're on board with an all dps class game. this was not for everyone.