"Casual and virtual world cannot coexist." <--- You should make that the title for your game's website.
Its true though, at least you didn't bother to deny that. In a game where the world actually changes while you are gone casuals will never be a significant factor. And they will spend all day whining that they can't access as much content as people who play more.
Again, this is a topic for another thread. Try this one. You can be the new Ihmotep.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I hate repetition, end game "dungeons" usually require being run a bajillion times, that drives me nuts.
For example, I'm currently playing Amalur which is like an MMO without other people. It has lots of dungeons which I wouldn't want to do more than once. Once they convert the same game to a MMO, I'll probably hate it.
"Casual and virtual world cannot coexist." <--- You should make that the title for your game's website.
Its true though, at least you didn't bother to deny that. In a game where the world actually changes while you are gone casuals will never be a significant factor. And they will spend all day whining that they can't access as much content as people who play more.
Again, this is a topic for another thread. Try this one. You can be the new Ihmotep.
I was not talking about group vs solo play. I was talking about time investment.
If a virtual w orld is modeled on a real world time investment is the only commodity. You can have other factors like choosing WHERE AND HOW to invest your time but if you have 30 minutes a day and I have 4 hours you are going to lose even if you are an evil genius. Especially since hardcore players tend towards high levels of RTS skills and mathcrafting. Also if you don't explore, which takes time, you don't even have as many options as more active players.
But if doing dungeons is "raiding" as the op seems to be suggesting, then "no".
Yeah, games like Lineage 2 and UO had dungeons designed such that groups could interact or separate as the dungeon filled up. They were more of a social experience than the newer dungeons.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But if doing dungeons is "raiding" as the op seems to be suggesting, then "no".
Yeah, games like Lineage 2 and UO had dungeons designed such that groups could interact or spearate as the dungeon filled up. They were more of a social experience than the newer dungeons.
Exactly.
You could camp a spot and people would either join you, attack you, or move on. Or you could just roam around and explore. Not alot to interact with, unfortunatley, but some cool things to see.
They were better experiences.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I like most dungeons, instanced or not... that really doesn't matter to me. The only dungeons I don't like are the hallway dungeons...having those once in a while when it really makes sense is ok, but far too many dungeons are built that way nowadays.
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." - Eleanor Roosevelt "Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security." -Norman Vincent Peale
How can something be meaningful if you can do it in 10-30 minutes? You can't have it both ways. If you made that meaningful and then you made things more meaningful for people who played longer sessions, than players would complain that short sessions weren't meaninful.
Its not that casuals want to play that people dislike, its that they demand to be able to do all the things players who played longer can do. Then what is the point of playing longer?
Casual and virtual world cannot coexist. Game and casual can, but not casual and hardcore within a game.
Especially with virtual worlds that are persistant and dynamic less play means less progression and less achievement. Its unavoidable.
And further how can casuals ever do anything truly amazing?
Build a sky fort? How can you do that in 10-30 minutes?
Create an army of golems to protect your giant player made metroplis from the ravages of a demon lord? Again how can you do that in short time periods?
I can see it in single player games because the world freezes when you quit. And in themeparks those concepts are impossible due to the static nature of the game regardless of how hardcore you are.
I guess what I am saying is that a game can't be both casual and hardcore. And awesome is relative. What a casual considers awesome I considere trivial cause high level and having done it many times. But to casuals my awesome is unattainable.
The simplest and most obvious examples of short-session meaningful accomplishments are (a) earning XP and (b) earning loot. Many other specific examples exist depending on the implementation of a given game (ie in WOW dungeons earning your armor tokens 1 dungeon run at a time is still meaningful progression, whether or not you have enough time to run 10 dungeons in a row.)
Although the reason I put "meaningful accomplishments" after "fun" in my previous post was intentional: fun is more important. The longer a session needs to be to start having fun in a game, the worse that game will do.
I have no clue how you think casuals wouldn't or shouldn't be able to accomplish things in the same number of 20-30 min sessions as a hardcore player (who plays more of those sessions in a row.) Denying any of the things you state simply because a player can't put in 8 unbroken hours of gameplay is just flat-out bad game design.
The only variance to the setup would be player skill. It makes sense to reward skill with faster/better accomplishments. Hardcore players are likely to be more skilled, but even some casual players are very skilled (they just have other things in their life and can't commit 4+ hour marathon play sessions to games. But they should be highly successful in the 20-30 minute sessions they log in for.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
How can something be meaningful if you can do it in 10-30 minutes? You can't have it both ways. If you made that meaningful and then you made things more meaningful for people who played longer sessions, than players would complain that short sessions weren't meaninful.
Its not that casuals want to play that people dislike, its that they demand to be able to do all the things players who played longer can do. Then what is the point of playing longer?
Casual and virtual world cannot coexist. Game and casual can, but not casual and hardcore within a game.
Especially with virtual worlds that are persistant and dynamic less play means less progression and less achievement. Its unavoidable.
And further how can casuals ever do anything truly amazing?
Build a sky fort? How can you do that in 10-30 minutes?
Create an army of golems to protect your giant player made metroplis from the ravages of a demon lord? Again how can you do that in short time periods?
I can see it in single player games because the world freezes when you quit. And in themeparks those concepts are impossible due to the static nature of the game regardless of how hardcore you are.
I guess what I am saying is that a game can't be both casual and hardcore. And awesome is relative. What a casual considers awesome I considere trivial cause high level and having done it many times. But to casuals my awesome is unattainable.
The simplest and most obvious examples of short-session meaningful accomplishments are (a) earning XP and (b) earning loot. Many other specific examples exist depending on the implementation of a given game (ie in WOW dungeons earning your armor tokens 1 dungeon run at a time is still meaningful progression, whether or not you have enough time to run 10 dungeons in a row.)
Although the reason I put "meaningful accomplishments" after "fun" in my previous post was intentional: fun is more important. The longer a session needs to be to start having fun in a game, the worse that game will do.
I have no clue how you think casuals wouldn't or shouldn't be able to accomplish things in the same number of 20-30 min sessions as a hardcore player (who plays more of those sessions in a row.) Denying any of the things you state simply because a player can't put in 8 unbroken hours of gameplay is just flat-out bad game design.
The only variance to the setup would be player skill. It makes sense to reward skill with faster/better accomplishments. Hardcore players are likely to be more skilled, but even some casual players are very skilled (they just have other things in their life and can't commit 4+ hour marathon play sessions to games. But they should be highly successful in the 20-30 minute sessions they log in for.)
I whole heartedly agree. Length of play session should never determine reward, it's terrible game design. Players have many different play styles and they should all be rewarded for it. If a game is going to try and appeal to different play styles, then developers absolutely cannot favor one over another. If they are going to put all the good stuff in raids, then it needs to be a raiding game from beginning to end. None of this suck in the casuals with their kind of content at first bullcrap, then completely change the gameplay and rewards at the higher levels to favor only hardcore raiders and or PvPers.
I tend to avoid dungeons because they are built to be very time consuming. They don't offer save / rest points so you can do them in sessions that fit your time allotments and return later to continue where you left off. They also tend to be death traps and very solo unfriendly. Despite the fact that most developers tend to put better loot in them, I still don't find myself motivated to do them on a regular basis.
If by doing dungeons you mean repetitive gear grinding raid type stuff, no i hate it. If you mean small group exploration in a creepy scary dungeon with cool surround sound, sneaky traps, clever puzzles, and a diversified population of mob denizens, that seem to actually live their as opposed to standing around like idiots waiting for someone to come kill them, then yeah, i like dungeons in MMO's.
Most dungeons in MMO's are pretty lame though. I think LOTRO had some pretty good dungeons, i'd like to see more in the line of how they were done. The Great Barrow was fun, and not a high level instance either. Nektropos Castle in EQ2 was pretty cool as well. Loved the twisty bendy corridors.
I think Devs need to try and push the limits on the atmosphere of the dungeons. Not just have it some boring grindy place characters must goto to get gear X.
I like instances in WoW, but Iwish there were persistent world dungeons too. It would be neat to go dungeoneering in a non-instanced environment and run into horde and a large pvp fight break out.
I like killing raid bosses. the bigger and harder the better. doesnt matter to me whether they are in caves or fields.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I enjoyed running the real-deal dungeons in EQ and AC. Dungeons that were vast, complex and required enough thought, time and effort to warrant a very real and tangible feeling of accomplishment and comradery all the way through to the end. The 'weight' of the dungeons made them feel exciting.
In the classic mmo dungeons the regular mobs were often more difficult than bosses of today. Back then there weren't really 'trash mobs' because you could find yourself in a mortal situation at any time throughout the dungeon. They were actually intense and horrifying.
After playing and raiding in WoW and Rift, I must say that dungeons in these games aren't actually 'scary dungeons with danger around every corner' but rather 'places to push buttons'.
Modern dungeons are just short little efficient disney rides devoid of all danger, discovery and suspense. And judging by LFG groups other people aren't exactly having a blast either. Raids obviously hit the difficulty factor better in some cases but in the end their simplicity and 'routineness' makes them just as banal as the 5-man dungeons.
There's just no real impact or meaning to modern dungeons. They're incredibly shallow to the point that they're almost a bi-product of the loot they contain.
Special mention goes out to the UO dungeons. They can't really be compared to the 3D game dungeons since they play differently but they were equally fantastic in their own right.
I love dungeons in MMOs they are usually the group activities and always the coolest places to explore. Playing SWTOR recently all I really wanted to do was just run the instaces to level up. I think it was a combo of the only way to group and the exploration/boss fights
I play healers mainly so anything that makes me put some effort into healing is a ton of fun and bosses usually do it.
Also I love solo exploring dungeons trying to get as far or as deep as I can just a lone.
Really questing in the open world to level is the one thing I hate more than anything in MMOs at the moment.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
Originally posted by brody71 i dont particularly like doing them. the only reason i would do a dungeon was either for a quest, or to update a piece or two of gear. i never find myself saying "oh i want to kill that boss".
Yes. Ive run instanced dungeons in many games for hours, it was quite fun. Ive farmed open world "dungeons" for hours, that was also quite fun.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I like dungeons. I like lore attatched to them. I do not like running them over and over again for a month to get gear sets. However helping others run through to experience them from time to time is fun as well.
Comments
Again, this is a topic for another thread. Try this one. You can be the new Ihmotep.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I hate repetition, end game "dungeons" usually require being run a bajillion times, that drives me nuts.
For example, I'm currently playing Amalur which is like an MMO without other people. It has lots of dungeons which I wouldn't want to do more than once. Once they convert the same game to a MMO, I'll probably hate it.
I was not talking about group vs solo play. I was talking about time investment.
If a virtual w orld is modeled on a real world time investment is the only commodity. You can have other factors like choosing WHERE AND HOW to invest your time but if you have 30 minutes a day and I have 4 hours you are going to lose even if you are an evil genius. Especially since hardcore players tend towards high levels of RTS skills and mathcrafting. Also if you don't explore, which takes time, you don't even have as many options as more active players.
"old school" dungeons "yes".
But if doing dungeons is "raiding" as the op seems to be suggesting, then "no".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yeah, games like Lineage 2 and UO had dungeons designed such that groups could interact or separate as the dungeon filled up. They were more of a social experience than the newer dungeons.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes I do.
Exactly.
You could camp a spot and people would either join you, attack you, or move on. Or you could just roam around and explore. Not alot to interact with, unfortunatley, but some cool things to see.
They were better experiences.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Open world, like a dungeon crawl absolutely. Instanced or rewards in the form of currency to buy gear- no, not at all.
I like most dungeons, instanced or not... that really doesn't matter to me. The only dungeons I don't like are the hallway dungeons...having those once in a while when it really makes sense is ok, but far too many dungeons are built that way nowadays.
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
"Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security." -Norman Vincent Peale
The simplest and most obvious examples of short-session meaningful accomplishments are (a) earning XP and (b) earning loot. Many other specific examples exist depending on the implementation of a given game (ie in WOW dungeons earning your armor tokens 1 dungeon run at a time is still meaningful progression, whether or not you have enough time to run 10 dungeons in a row.)
Although the reason I put "meaningful accomplishments" after "fun" in my previous post was intentional: fun is more important. The longer a session needs to be to start having fun in a game, the worse that game will do.
I have no clue how you think casuals wouldn't or shouldn't be able to accomplish things in the same number of 20-30 min sessions as a hardcore player (who plays more of those sessions in a row.) Denying any of the things you state simply because a player can't put in 8 unbroken hours of gameplay is just flat-out bad game design.
The only variance to the setup would be player skill. It makes sense to reward skill with faster/better accomplishments. Hardcore players are likely to be more skilled, but even some casual players are very skilled (they just have other things in their life and can't commit 4+ hour marathon play sessions to games. But they should be highly successful in the 20-30 minute sessions they log in for.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I whole heartedly agree. Length of play session should never determine reward, it's terrible game design. Players have many different play styles and they should all be rewarded for it. If a game is going to try and appeal to different play styles, then developers absolutely cannot favor one over another. If they are going to put all the good stuff in raids, then it needs to be a raiding game from beginning to end. None of this suck in the casuals with their kind of content at first bullcrap, then completely change the gameplay and rewards at the higher levels to favor only hardcore raiders and or PvPers.
I tend to avoid dungeons because they are built to be very time consuming. They don't offer save / rest points so you can do them in sessions that fit your time allotments and return later to continue where you left off. They also tend to be death traps and very solo unfriendly. Despite the fact that most developers tend to put better loot in them, I still don't find myself motivated to do them on a regular basis.
As long as they're not super easy or there's badges involved, I typically enjoy a good dungeon crawl!
If by doing dungeons you mean repetitive gear grinding raid type stuff, no i hate it. If you mean small group exploration in a creepy scary dungeon with cool surround sound, sneaky traps, clever puzzles, and a diversified population of mob denizens, that seem to actually live their as opposed to standing around like idiots waiting for someone to come kill them, then yeah, i like dungeons in MMO's.
Most dungeons in MMO's are pretty lame though. I think LOTRO had some pretty good dungeons, i'd like to see more in the line of how they were done. The Great Barrow was fun, and not a high level instance either. Nektropos Castle in EQ2 was pretty cool as well. Loved the twisty bendy corridors.
I think Devs need to try and push the limits on the atmosphere of the dungeons. Not just have it some boring grindy place characters must goto to get gear X.
Archlinux ftw
I like instances in WoW, but Iwish there were persistent world dungeons too. It would be neat to go dungeoneering in a non-instanced environment and run into horde and a large pvp fight break out.
I like killing raid bosses. the bigger and harder the better. doesnt matter to me whether they are in caves or fields.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I enjoyed running the real-deal dungeons in EQ and AC. Dungeons that were vast, complex and required enough thought, time and effort to warrant a very real and tangible feeling of accomplishment and comradery all the way through to the end. The 'weight' of the dungeons made them feel exciting.
In the classic mmo dungeons the regular mobs were often more difficult than bosses of today. Back then there weren't really 'trash mobs' because you could find yourself in a mortal situation at any time throughout the dungeon. They were actually intense and horrifying.
After playing and raiding in WoW and Rift, I must say that dungeons in these games aren't actually 'scary dungeons with danger around every corner' but rather 'places to push buttons'.
Modern dungeons are just short little efficient disney rides devoid of all danger, discovery and suspense. And judging by LFG groups other people aren't exactly having a blast either. Raids obviously hit the difficulty factor better in some cases but in the end their simplicity and 'routineness' makes them just as banal as the 5-man dungeons.
There's just no real impact or meaning to modern dungeons. They're incredibly shallow to the point that they're almost a bi-product of the loot they contain.
Special mention goes out to the UO dungeons. They can't really be compared to the 3D game dungeons since they play differently but they were equally fantastic in their own right.
I love dungeons in MMOs they are usually the group activities and always the coolest places to explore. Playing SWTOR recently all I really wanted to do was just run the instaces to level up. I think it was a combo of the only way to group and the exploration/boss fights
I play healers mainly so anything that makes me put some effort into healing is a ton of fun and bosses usually do it.
Also I love solo exploring dungeons trying to get as far or as deep as I can just a lone.
Really questing in the open world to level is the one thing I hate more than anything in MMOs at the moment.
-------------------------------------------------
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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Yes.
Ive run instanced dungeons in many games for hours, it was quite fun.
Ive farmed open world "dungeons" for hours, that was also quite fun.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
sure i absolutely love dungeons. when it resembles a dark cave without a loading screen.
doing dungeons for me is the most boring thing in the game i like killing bosses and rare items i better play tetris just not to do the dungeon
I like dungeons. I like lore attatched to them. I do not like running them over and over again for a month to get gear sets. However helping others run through to experience them from time to time is fun as well.
My theme song.