You won't be playing Gw2 and not get any rewards at all, BUT the game is not based around getting those rewards. You play for fun, those rewards are bonuses.
Any game for me will only be fun for so long.
For instance I would always take one or two month breaks from WoW and play RS or GW1, But I never play either of the latter like I did WoW (I did runescape when I was like 10 but later I found better things) as much as I did WoW because of lack of end game rewards. GW1 became more of an E-sport type game which is great for the hardcore E-sporting peeps, but for people like me who wanted an actual MMO it was terrible.
Fort aspenwood was/is where it's at I still have a lot of fun in that PvP map to this day. Getting those siege turtles to the front line, demolishing all that stands before you, getting that clutch interrupt on the WoH monk at 99% weapon charge to nail Gunther. Ahh, good times.
But GW1 was a CORPG, so it's not surprising you found it bad as an MMO
I has a lot of fun in it, but i never expected it to be an open world, just a fun co-op game that turned out to have awesome PvP and a really rich lore to the world. In fact i didn't even know all that much about Guild wars at all when i picked it up, i'd only heard of it very vaguely once or twice.
Well personally I think the only way to have features for long term play is a sandbox. Player created content is the only way to have an actual changing online world to play in.
Right now mmos are just skinner boxes to keep the player playing. Does everyone really want to be a rat?
Anyway, probably a discussion for a different day.
Well personally I think the only way to have features for long term play is a sandbox. Player created content is the only way to have an actual changing online world to play in.
Right now mmos are just skinner boxes to keep the player playing. Does everyone really want to be a rat?
Anyway, probably a discussion for a different day.
Indeed so, any themepark (i.e. dev created content) is one of a limited playtime. Arenanet know that, and they simply are not trying to get players to stay in GW2 for thousands of hours via arbitary 'you need to grind this dungeon 7000 times to get to the next dungeon'. They want you to play and have fun. When you're not having fun any more, or you've 'done' the content you're interested in, that's perfectly fine. There's no sub, so you could simply blaze through the content as fast as possible and only play for new expansion releases and it makes no difference to them.
Comfy PVP in videogames aide from DAOC,LoL,DOTA,Gears of War 1-3, any fps game...is not made for fun.
Damn I couldn't even keep a straight face when typing this.
GW2 isn;t a lobby based RTS or a FPS.
It's still a GAME.
Come on snaylor, are you saying MMO's aren't meant to be fun? They're meant to be work? What's happened to you? What have MMO's done to you? I'm actually really worried about how you view MMO's now ><
In order,
No, quite the opposite I am saying that most MMOs ARE fun and that what is and isn't fun is subjective. If most people didn't enjoy MMOs they would have died out a long time ago and now amount of end game content could have fixed that.
Once again No, it is you whos trying to paint every other MMO as some long gear grind, What I am saying is that after 50 hours of playing the same game I would like to be rewarded, Rewards in GW2 means a new skill or a shiny hat that doesn't do anything. If I enjoy most (If not all) Gameplay styles then you whole, "Well Gw2 is fun." is really meaningless to me.
What has happened to you? Had this been any other game you'd all be going balistic, complaining about how there is no endgame.
Once again nothing, As a matter oh fact while typing this I am playing BF3.
You won't be playing Gw2 and not get any rewards at all, BUT the game is not based around getting those rewards. You play for fun, those rewards are bonuses.
Any game for me will only be fun for so long.
For instance I would always take one or two month breaks from WoW and play RS or GW1, But I never play either of the latter like I did WoW (I did runescape when I was like 10 but later I found better things) as much as I did WoW because of lack of end game rewards. GW1 became more of an E-sport type game which is great for the hardcore E-sporting peeps, but for people like me who wanted an actual MMO it was terrible.
Fort aspenwood was/is where it's at I still have a lot of fun in that PvP map to this day. Getting those siege turtles to the front line, demolishing all that stands before you, getting that clutch interrupt on the WoH monk at 99% weapon charge to nail Gunther. Ahh, good times.
But GW1 was a CORPG, so it's not surprising you found it bad as an MMO
I has a lot of fun in it, but i never expected it to be an open world, just a fun co-op game that turned out to have awesome PvP and a really rich lore to the world. In fact i didn't even know all that much about Guild wars at all when i picked it up, i'd only heard of it very vaguely once or twice.
My fear (Not really as if GW2 doesn't work out then theres TOR or WoW for me) is that GW2 will (once I get ot endgame) be little more then a E-Sport with an open world.
Nothing wrong with that, but I do enjoy a little more bang for my buck.
Once again No, it is you whos trying to paint every other MMO as some long gear grind, What I am saying is that after 50 hours of playing the same game I would like to be rewarded, Rewards in GW2 means a new skill or a shiny hat that doesn't do anything. If I enjoy most (If not all) Gameplay styles then you whole, "Well Gw2 is fun." is really meaningless to me.
What has happened to you? Had this been any other game you'd all be going balistic, complaining about how there is no endgame.
Well if you enjoy all gameplay styles then GW2 doesn't need to be another skinner's box MMO for you to enjoy it then, so the lack of a traditional end game should not bother you. Enjoy GW2 for what it is, not what you're used to
Again, we're not the WoW community here. We're mostly different people. You'll likely find the people that don't care about 'raids' ect. here never did. I certainly didn't. In fact the mention of 'end game' in the ToR thread over there (gw2guru) is fairly minimal as far as i'm aware (not to say the recent influx of 'traditional MMO' players into that community haven't started their whines about ToR end game now)!
MMORPG.com is not a hivemind. There are several dozen different communities, all with different opinions on what makes a game good.
So again, we're not hypocrits in the gw2 section. Hypocriticism requires us to have actually complained about ToR's 'end game'. But as for me, I'm sorry but i'm not 'the internet'. I'm not even this community, so i'm definitely not a hypocrit in any form. I know what i like, and that's not end game gear grinding, so i never cared about ToR's 'end game'. I only played it for the storyline. I quite liked the storyline. I finished the Sith one, kind of got bored of the, frankly, repetetive combat which was essentially just not as fun as GW1's for me, so i stopped playing it. But you can check my entire post history if you're that adamant. I have not once complained about any games 'end game' being lacking or missing because i don't like that style of end game anyway.
Comfy PVP in videogames aide from DAOC,LoL,DOTA,Gears of War 1-3, any fps game...is not made for fun.
Damn I couldn't even keep a straight face when typing this.
GW2 isn;t a lobby based RTS or a FPS.
It's still a GAME.
Come on snaylor, are you saying MMO's aren't meant to be fun? They're meant to be work? What's happened to you? What have MMO's done to you? I'm actually really worried about how you view MMO's now ><
In order,
No, quite the opposite I am saying that most MMOs ARE fun and that what is and isn't fun is subjective. If most people didn't enjoy MMOs they would have died out a long time ago and now amount of end game content could have fixed that.
Once again No, it is you whos trying to paint every other MMO as some long gear grind, What I am saying is that after 50 hours of playing the same game I would like to be rewarded, Rewards in GW2 means a new skill or a shiny hat that doesn't do anything. If I enjoy most (If not all) Gameplay styles then you whole, "Well Gw2 is fun." is really meaningless to me.
What has happened to you? Had this been any other game you'd all be going balistic, complaining about how there is no endgame.
Once again nothing, As a matter oh fact while typing this I am playing BF3.
don't even bother, this is gw2 forums, you will just get flamed into the ground
Aye basically just the other personal stories, dungeons and the entire PvP side of things Which is actually a few hundred hours of content, not including PvP, but hey, i guess i'm a 'noob' for only spending about 20-30 hours a week gaming tops, so that could last me a good year easily.
But what do i know, i've never grinded out the best armor in any gear based MMO, so i'm not 'hardcore' enough to appreciate 'end games'
My fear (Not really as if GW2 doesn't work out then theres TOR or WoW for me) is that GW2 will (once I get ot endgame) be little more then a E-Sport with an open world.
Nothing wrong with that, but I do enjoy a little more bang for my buck.
Well your fear may well be entirely justified, based on your attachment to gear grind for YOU GW2 doesn't offer anything at the 'end game'. There's no carrot apart from the achievements system. But personally i don't think any other genre of game has more bang for the buck than what you'll get in GW2, nor any other MMO for that matter. You're describing 'end game' like it's the only point of an MMO. GW2 doesn't have your vision of an endgame, neither did GW1.
So really, you've made your point. GW2 doesn't have the content at the end game you're accustomed to in an MMO. it never was going to, it never is going to It's not that kind of game. It doesn't affect people like me at all, because as a guild wars player, i never have had the urge for that kind of end game and never wanted it. Guild wars 2 is a sequel to Guild wars after all, not WoW, it's going to carry forward some of the design ethos.
But personally i think ~1k hours of PvE content overall (stories, dungeons, dynamic events, the meta events, the 'heart' quests) at least is pretty damn good value for money. Skyrim was like, what, 60 hours for the same price before you'd basically done everything important? By the time you've clocked 1k hours in another MMO doing content you'll at least be at the 6 month mark and therefore having paid £100.
But ya, GW2 is amazing value for money by any stretch. Nothing can be said against that statement without being essentially disproven. Objectively there's too much content. The only way GW2 could be 'bad' value for money is if you simply don't like it. Which is a pretty asanine statement. In that case i could say WoW is abysmal value for money because i wouldn't last a day before quitting out of boredom I don't because it's a stupid statement. I don't think any MMO, if played up until the point before the gear treadmill sets in, could be called bad value for money in terms of content. I say before the gear treadmill because you repeat content like no tomorrow at that point. Which is pretty bad considering you're still paying as much as when you had the whole world left to play through.
But even then, compare it to any 'normal' game and MMO's simply blow them away in content. You seriously have to wonder why it took bethesda so long to make skyrim when it took Arenanet 5 years to build a vastly bigger world. So basically, if you want bang for your buck, any MMO will do. Especially ones with no sub. Pretty sure you'll play as many hours for that £40 as you would for any other MMO's £40 before that £10 a month kicked in
So yeah, unless you have insane expectations (you obviously don't, you're playing BF3). GW2 gives more than enough 'bang for your buck'.
Hey Comfy I say there's no need to keep pointing out the obvious, just let it be discovered you know, I actually notice which ones are really nitpicking at this, and it's quite ironic but not suprissing because that's how it is in forums.
So if they deem it so let them have the last word you know what I'm saying, it's more so amusing that way IMO. I mean the arguments are going to continure regardless, I have a good idea who might or who wants to quote this post only to state my point over again or just have the point "woosh" over their head.
I'm gona let this just play out.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Hey all, I was just browsing some random gaming forums and I noticed some people saying they weren't sure what would keep people playing at the lvl cap. From all the vids and things I have heard about this game...for me personally the combat looks fun, the classes interesting and they have a really nice looking world pvp thing going on. I'm a big fan of pvp in mmos, though im pretty bad in general. My understanding is there will be very difficult 5 man dungeons and such at end game for the pve crowd and the aforementioned WvWvW and Rated PVP for pvpers. That seems like plenty to me.
Are the people saying it wont hold some at lvl cap just bitter we aren't getting 10 man+ raids with a gear grind? What is up with the gear in GW2? Would anyone be so kind as to fill me in on whats known about the role gear plays in pve/pvp endgame? I understand rated pvp gear plays no roled whatsoever as you get pre-made gear. But as far as pve and WvWvW are we looking at a grind? Or more like negligable stat increases and mostly cosmetic stuff?
Whaddya do? You f**king pewpew, that's what!
And as far as the WvWvW thing goes, there actually is pve in there. You aren't going to get massive groups of skilled pvpers, 100%. The server that does best, will be those who utilize the grind monkeys in pve in certain areas.
Hey Comfy I say there's no need to keep pointing out the obvious, just let it be discovered you know, I actually notice which ones are really nitpicking at this, and it's quite ironic but not suprissing because that's how it is in forums.
So if they deem it so let them have the last word you know what I'm saying, it's more so amusing that way IMO. I mean the arguments are going to continure regardless, I have a good idea who might or who wants to quote this post only to state my point over again or just have the point "woosh" over their head.
I'm gona let this just play out.
Well, to be honest, the whole point of being overly negative and nitpicky is generally to try and persuade others their nitpicks are quite big issues. If they're not, and why they aren't issues are explained in a nice, friendly concise way, people reading the thread who are on the fence will see the issues and then see why they aren't issues at all
Never try to convince another person in an internet debate. It doesn't work. What you do is provide the audience a balanced view that people can see and then make up their own minds. It quickly becomes obvious who's just 'overly nitpicky' and then the debate has been 'won' But no-one will ever admit defeat, ever. That's why you never try to 'win'. You just have to essentially debunk or put into perspective any points made.
People will view the points in the (hopefully) more sensible light, say 'ahhh' and then cease to care But all this debate is about is that snaylor still likes old 'gear grind' MMO's for their end game, which he is entitled to do, but GW2 does nothing at all of the sort. The statement is simply that it doesn't matter for this game, no matter what underlying tones snaylor is trying to imply. GW2 is not an 'old school' MMO and it is not designed to appeal to those who still like the 'gear treadmill' simply because there's a massive audience that don't!
awww bless some people want a carrot when they hit level cap. shame. *passes tissues to the tearful ones*
Honestly what game does not feel like a grind after 100s of hours of playing?
Fun combat (I thought WoW was fun to play at 60,70, 80 and 85) can only get you so far in terms of retention and goes with WvW what makes people think that others will play if there is little insentive to do so?
Played POTBS for 2 years, and rarely felt like I was grinding. Even when farming pve, there was a chance pvp could break out. Hell, against some of the more carebear nations, the only way to start pvp was to have it so they had npc allies on their side. Once I did, I switched to playing the pirates, and yeah, never did grinding the last few months of the game.
The game had a ton of other problems. But for me, a grindfest wasn't one of them until the end.
You can get challenging PvP from any game that that rated BG, same goes for combat if the person you are fighting isn't 5, and while your right in the fact that they don't need me to play for 6 years they do need me to A)Buy any type of DCL they throw out and Buy X-Pacs.
I see this as a large flaw in Anets design, the leveling curb is nill, They said it takes the same amount of time each level and it takes 1H 30M to level so thats about only 90H of leveling contont. There are no raids but from what I can gather there are hard mode type DE, but their is no insentive to do those out side of grapping the skin for your gear.
While looking forward to this game I think that like Bioware was with TOR the devs hearts are in the right places but come launch they are going to be hit with reality.
That really shows you haven't done a lot of pvp in games. When pvp is entirely gear based, the issue isn't whether it is a "challenge.' Once you get moderately competent people, it comes down all to gear, or who makes the first mistake.
Games that have intriguing pvp systems (from old school UO, DAOC, GW, POTBS), the tactics mattered just as much if not more than what you had on. They involved setting your build properly. Hitting this skill here. Hitting this counter there. Positioning this person there.
They allow you to do things in pvp you just can't do in WoW, TOR, etc.
I don't know about the 1k hours of content - is that an official statement with solid back up data or a personal speculation? - but I think that the idea of endgame content or level cap content should be looked at from a slightly different, broader angle, namely what it's really about.
The heart of the matter is essentially: what to do PvE content wise after your first 150-200 hours in an MMO?
Raiding has always been something to do what MMO gamers can chew on, but at its core it's about more challenging content that has enough longevity to keep MMO gamers entertained for additional few hundred of hours, and raiding managed that by providing more difficult and harder to master PvE content which means it'll require more time to 'beat' the content, while at the same time it'll appease the achiever type of MMO gamer in Bartle's model, because of the rewards and bragging rights that it'll give.
If you dismiss that as a mechanic, it simply means that alternatives have to be found. Or looking at it this way: for people who spend easily hundreds of hours in an MMORPG or want to do that, there has to be something to entertain them after that first 150-200 hours. To reach level cap in GW2, from earlier statements it'll be something like 90-100 hours on average. After that, what remains to keep MMO gamers entertained PvE wise is dungeons, minigames, doing dailies/achievements and exploring DE's over the world or the toughest meta events around. Will this be enough? Only time can tell.
But what applies to other MMO's applies in GW2 as well: if you enjoy your time and gameplay in an MMO, then you can find activities fun and entertaining that you might find a bore or grind when done in an MMO you dislike or have grown tired and bored with.
You can get challenging PvP from any game that that rated BG, same goes for combat if the person you are fighting isn't 5, and while your right in the fact that they don't need me to play for 6 years they do need me to A)Buy any type of DCL they throw out and Buy X-Pacs.
I see this as a large flaw in Anets design, the leveling curb is nill, They said it takes the same amount of time each level and it takes 1H 30M to level so thats about only 90H of leveling contont. There are no raids but from what I can gather there are hard mode type DE, but their is no insentive to do those out side of grapping the skin for your gear.
While looking forward to this game I think that like Bioware was with TOR the devs hearts are in the right places but come launch they are going to be hit with reality.
That really shows you haven't done a lot of pvp in games. When pvp is entirely gear based, the issue isn't whether it is a "challenge.' Once you get moderately competent people, it comes down all to gear, or who makes the first mistake.
Games that have intriguing pvp systems (from old school UO, DAOC, GW, POTBS), the tactics mattered just as much if not more than what you had on. They involved setting your build properly. Hitting this skill here. Hitting this counter there. Positioning this person there.
They allow you to do things in pvp you just can't do in WoW, TOR, etc.
Like hitting an assassin's lead attack with distracting shot
Hey Comfy I say there's no need to keep pointing out the obvious, just let it be discovered you know, I actually notice which ones are really nitpicking at this, and it's quite ironic but not suprissing because that's how it is in forums.
So if they deem it so let them have the last word you know what I'm saying, it's more so amusing that way IMO. I mean the arguments are going to continure regardless, I have a good idea who might or who wants to quote this post only to state my point over again or just have the point "woosh" over their head.
I'm gona let this just play out.
Well, to be honest, the whole point of being overly negative and nitpicky is generally to try and persuade others their nitpicks are quite big issues. If they're not, and why they aren't issues are explained in a nice, friendly concise way, people reading the thread who are on the fence will see the issues and then see why they aren't issues at all
Never try to convince another person in an internet debate. It doesn't work. What you do is provide the audience a balanced view that people can see and then make up their own minds. It quickly becomes obvious who's just 'overly nitpicky' and then the debate has been 'won' But no-one will ever admit defeat, ever. That's why you never try to 'win'. You just have to essentially debunk or put into perspective any points made.
People will view the points in the (hopefully) more sensible light, say 'ahhh' and then cease to care But all this debate is about is that snaylor still likes old 'gear grind' MMO's for their end game, which he is entitled to do, butGW2 does nothing at all of the sort. The statement is simply that it doesn't matter for this game, no matter what underlying tones snaylor is trying to imply. GW2 is not an 'old school' MMO and it is not designed to appeal to those who still like the 'gear treadmill' simply because there's a massive audience that don't!
True, very true, I actually agree.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I don't know about the 1k hours of content - is that an official statement with solid back up data or a personal speculation? - but I think that the idea of endgame content or level cap content should be looked at from a slightly different, broader angle, namely what it's really about.
The heart of the matter is essentially: what to do PvE content wise after your first 150-200 hours in an MMO?
Raiding has always been something to do what MMO gamers can chew on, but at its core it's about more challenging content that has enough longevity to keep MMO gamers entertained for additional few hundred of hours, and raiding managed that by providing more difficult and harder to master PvE content which means it'll require more time to 'beat' the content, while at the same time it'll appease the achiever type of MMO gamer in Bartle's model, because of the rewards and bragging rights that it'll give.
If you dismiss that as a mechanic, it simply means that alternatives have to be found. Or looking at it this way: for people who spend easily hundreds of hours in an MMORPG or want to do that, there has to be something to entertain them after that first 150-200 hours. To reach level cap in GW2, from earlier statements it'll be something like 90-100 hours on average. After that, what remains to keep MMO gamers entertained PvE wise is dungeons, minigames, doing dailies/achievements and exploring DE's over the world or the toughest meta events around. Will this be enough? Only time can tell.
But what applies to other MMO's applies in GW2 as well: if you enjoy your time and gameplay in an MMO, then you can find activities fun and entertaining that you might find a bore or grind when done in an MMO you dislike or have grown tired and bored with.
It's a low (EDIT: It was the 'realistic' estimate, not raw content) estimate speculation
I'm assuming about 2 hours per dungeon's explorable mode (it's been said to take about that long), about 30 hours for the storyline missions (of which there at least 5, i'm not including the major branches such as supporting the vigil ect. - i'm including explorable mode dungeons in this number, of which there's 8) and linking quests (assuming it's anything like GW1), that the 1.5k dynamic events average at ~10 minutes (some are longer, some are shorter), and the 'heart quests' take about 5 minutes, of which there are about 700. I'm not taking into account any 'meta events' either. Oh, and i assume you'd have to actually move between the events, so i multiplied it by a factor of 1.2 considering that seems roughly right from videos (i.e. the time you spend not actively doing the quests). I'm also not including skill point quests because you'll run into them during that 1.2 factor i added.
It works out to be roughly 1k (EDIT: 600) hours or so. I don't think there's anything insane in my estimates whatsoever (you could nitpick some numbers, and i'm very sure people will). For me, any game with above 100 hours gameplay for £40 is pretty damn good. So yeah, 1k hours to 'complete' GW2 if you're dedicated to PvE and don't fail the dungeons multiple times.
EDIT: Actually the 1k hours was a different estimation, which included the fact to replay the story you'll need to actually make new characters (and therefore repeat some events) which take about 120 hours to reach max level, which is an additional '90 hours' times 4 for those characters on top of the 600 which takes us up to 960 (this is assuming serious PvE play on those characters with no lollygaggin'!), therefore ~1k hours . The 'raw content' figure is 600 hours Sorry about that. Got the two estimate messed up ^^ realistically to do the stories ect. you're looking at that 1k figure, but raw content, assuming you could simply just play the stories in isolation, would be about 600 hours.
End game starts at lv-...You know what. Forget it..
Doesn't that make things worse in terms of longtivity?
Seriouly imagine playing any other MMO, you spent weeks leveling to max level, when you get there you ask, "Hey whats there to do now?" and your response is, "Guess what you've been playing it the whole time!".
If Anet actually wants me to buy X-pacs and and what ever they throw in their store, they best have an acceptable endgame or else I might do what I did with first GW and just wait till they bundel it up.
With all the complaints over SWTOR's and RIFTs lack of endgame content I think this site would be up in arms.
If the game is fun, when someone says "what you've been doing the entire time", I say awesome. that's what I did with SWG. I maxed out my build, and when I asked "what's there to do now" someone said:
"You can come with us and go blow up bases. Want to go explore dathomir? Go do it. Go look for contracts to fulfill for crafters doing pve. Or you just started a crafting industry. Now all you gotta do is take it to the next level."
In POTBS, I was told once I was 50, that I should start attacking other players ports and getitng into as many 6 v 6 pvp battles I could, which is kinda like what I was doing on my way to 50. I stuck around, because it was FUN.
It doesn't make things worse in longevity, unless it isn't fun. TOR offers nothing but more of the same for their "endgame." The problem is, it just isn't fun for a lot of people, and for those it is fun for, it is insanely buggy right now to boot lulz.
I'm really not sure this point is worth explaining anymore. There's more than enough info out on this game. Some people get it, some won't even if we spell it out.
To be honest, if you find yourself asking this question when looking @ GW2, you are probably missing the entire point to the game. It may have lvls, but it's not really based off of it. You could look at it more like GTA progression-wise. You can either blow through the game's 'main story' and then shelve it, or you can look around you and realize there's an entire world to explore / achievements to obtain, or you can do both.
This isn't a game that forces you to be max lvl to have fun w/ the big kids. There's a bit of a ramp up at the start, to get you going (ie learning your first weapon skills / getting your first skill points), and then after that you can pretty much do w/e you want. Or you can just roll a PvP toon right off the bat, forget all that PvE crap, and go straight into PvP action. In GW1 I tended to do a mix of both. The majority of my character slots would be PvE characters, to enjoy the story, get the cool looking armor / capture the more interesting skills, get the achievements / etc. And then my last 1-2 character slots I would reserve just for PvP, so if I wanted to dive straight into some action, I didn't need to see if I had the right class, skills, or setup for the type of PvP I was doing. I could just customize a new character (with a reserved name) to PvP however I wanted at that point in time. I have yet to play another MMO that lets you do that, and it is such a great mechanic.
Are the people saying it wont hold some at lvl cap just bitter we aren't getting 10 man+ raids with a gear grind? What is up with the gear in GW2? Would anyone be so kind as to fill me in on whats known about the role gear plays in pve/pvp endgame? I understand rated pvp gear plays no roled whatsoever as you get pre-made gear. But as far as pve and WvWvW are we looking at a grind? Or more like negligable stat increases and mostly cosmetic stuff?
In terms of pve , as in gear-progression , it will not be like current-wow where you will need to keep farming dungeons to get shinier purples.
Imagine this .... The time during vanilla WoW , but there is no purple and raid-instances. The item-level's of equipmets you get from different dungeon are the same , but in term of stats they are not . There lies the ol' but new complexity of Gw2 , some going to be direct damage oriented , debuff/buff oriented , support oriented and Hp+resistance oriented . It All depends on the trait you will be putting (stat-talenting ) and your different playstyle.
Just my 5 penny view , it will probably be more complex than your current MMORPGS, while most mmos currently are simply using the basic holy trinity , like WOW you can only see their gears consist mostly 3 sets for every class, eg: dps-gear and tank/heal-gears. So technically for healing pally (for example) , the stats needed would be intellect, and other secondary stat . Kinda makes it rigid about getting gears. Wheras in gw2 , the only thing u need to worry is : whether the gear is light , medium or heavy armours .
And to add notes , ppl keep saying cosmetic isnt an important factor, i'd like to differ.
Take myself playing DCU online , sometimes it takes me half an hour pimping up my hero to llook as pretty and badass as possible , and honestly i feel more fullfilled doing that than daily questing while waiting for my daily dungeon in WoW.
Comments
Fort aspenwood was/is where it's at
I still have a lot of fun in that PvP map to this day. Getting those siege turtles to the front line, demolishing all that stands before you, getting that clutch interrupt on the WoH monk at 99% weapon charge to nail Gunther. Ahh, good times.
But GW1 was a CORPG, so it's not surprising you found it bad as an MMO
I has a lot of fun in it, but i never expected it to be an open world, just a fun co-op game that turned out to have awesome PvP and a really rich lore to the world. In fact i didn't even know all that much about Guild wars at all when i picked it up, i'd only heard of it very vaguely once or twice.
Well personally I think the only way to have features for long term play is a sandbox. Player created content is the only way to have an actual changing online world to play in.
Right now mmos are just skinner boxes to keep the player playing. Does everyone really want to be a rat?
Anyway, probably a discussion for a different day.
Indeed so, any themepark (i.e. dev created content) is one of a limited playtime. Arenanet know that, and they simply are not trying to get players to stay in GW2 for thousands of hours via arbitary 'you need to grind this dungeon 7000 times to get to the next dungeon'. They want you to play and have fun. When you're not having fun any more, or you've 'done' the content you're interested in, that's perfectly fine. There's no sub, so you could simply blaze through the content as fast as possible and only play for new expansion releases and it makes no difference to them.
In order,
No, quite the opposite I am saying that most MMOs ARE fun and that what is and isn't fun is subjective. If most people didn't enjoy MMOs they would have died out a long time ago and now amount of end game content could have fixed that.
Once again No, it is you whos trying to paint every other MMO as some long gear grind, What I am saying is that after 50 hours of playing the same game I would like to be rewarded, Rewards in GW2 means a new skill or a shiny hat that doesn't do anything. If I enjoy most (If not all) Gameplay styles then you whole, "Well Gw2 is fun." is really meaningless to me.
What has happened to you? Had this been any other game you'd all be going balistic, complaining about how there is no endgame.
Once again nothing, As a matter oh fact while typing this I am playing BF3.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
My fear (Not really as if GW2 doesn't work out then theres TOR or WoW for me) is that GW2 will (once I get ot endgame) be little more then a E-Sport with an open world.
Nothing wrong with that, but I do enjoy a little more bang for my buck.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Well if you enjoy all gameplay styles then GW2 doesn't need to be another skinner's box MMO for you to enjoy it then, so the lack of a traditional end game should not bother you. Enjoy GW2 for what it is, not what you're used to
Again, we're not the WoW community here. We're mostly different people. You'll likely find the people that don't care about 'raids' ect. here never did. I certainly didn't. In fact the mention of 'end game' in the ToR thread over there (gw2guru) is fairly minimal as far as i'm aware (not to say the recent influx of 'traditional MMO' players into that community haven't started their whines about ToR end game now)!
MMORPG.com is not a hivemind. There are several dozen different communities, all with different opinions on what makes a game good.
So again, we're not hypocrits in the gw2 section. Hypocriticism requires us to have actually complained about ToR's 'end game'. But as for me, I'm sorry but i'm not 'the internet'. I'm not even this community, so i'm definitely not a hypocrit in any form. I know what i like, and that's not end game gear grinding, so i never cared about ToR's 'end game'. I only played it for the storyline. I quite liked the storyline. I finished the Sith one, kind of got bored of the, frankly, repetetive combat which was essentially just not as fun as GW1's for me, so i stopped playing it. But you can check my entire post history if you're that adamant. I have not once complained about any games 'end game' being lacking or missing because i don't like that style of end game anyway.
don't even bother, this is gw2 forums, you will just get flamed into the ground
I don't see flames
To answer the original question...not much.
So like every other game?
Aye basically just the other personal stories, dungeons and the entire PvP side of things
Which is actually a few hundred hours of content, not including PvP, but hey, i guess i'm a 'noob' for only spending about 20-30 hours a week gaming tops, so that could last me a good year easily.
But what do i know, i've never grinded out the best armor in any gear based MMO, so i'm not 'hardcore' enough to appreciate 'end games'
Well your fear may well be entirely justified, based on your attachment to gear grind for YOU GW2 doesn't offer anything at the 'end game'. There's no carrot apart from the achievements system. But personally i don't think any other genre of game has more bang for the buck than what you'll get in GW2, nor any other MMO for that matter. You're describing 'end game' like it's the only point of an MMO. GW2 doesn't have your vision of an endgame, neither did GW1.
So really, you've made your point. GW2 doesn't have the content at the end game you're accustomed to in an MMO. it never was going to, it never is going to
It's not that kind of game. It doesn't affect people like me at all, because as a guild wars player, i never have had the urge for that kind of end game and never wanted it. Guild wars 2 is a sequel to Guild wars after all, not WoW, it's going to carry forward some of the design ethos.
But personally i think ~1k hours of PvE content overall (stories, dungeons, dynamic events, the meta events, the 'heart' quests) at least is pretty damn good value for money. Skyrim was like, what, 60 hours for the same price before you'd basically done everything important? By the time you've clocked 1k hours in another MMO doing content you'll at least be at the 6 month mark and therefore having paid £100.
But ya, GW2 is amazing value for money by any stretch. Nothing can be said against that statement without being essentially disproven. Objectively there's too much content. The only way GW2 could be 'bad' value for money is if you simply don't like it. Which is a pretty asanine statement. In that case i could say WoW is abysmal value for money because i wouldn't last a day before quitting out of boredom
I don't because it's a stupid statement. I don't think any MMO, if played up until the point before the gear treadmill sets in, could be called bad value for money in terms of content. I say before the gear treadmill because you repeat content like no tomorrow at that point. Which is pretty bad considering you're still paying as much as when you had the whole world left to play through.
But even then, compare it to any 'normal' game and MMO's simply blow them away in content. You seriously have to wonder why it took bethesda so long to make skyrim when it took Arenanet 5 years to build a vastly bigger world. So basically, if you want bang for your buck, any MMO will do. Especially ones with no sub. Pretty sure you'll play as many hours for that £40 as you would for any other MMO's £40 before that £10 a month kicked in
So yeah, unless you have insane expectations (you obviously don't, you're playing BF3). GW2 gives more than enough 'bang for your buck'.
Hey Comfy I say there's no need to keep pointing out the obvious, just let it be discovered you know, I actually notice which ones are really nitpicking at this, and it's quite ironic but not suprissing because that's how it is in forums.
So if they deem it so let them have the last word you know what I'm saying, it's more so amusing that way IMO. I mean the arguments are going to continure regardless, I have a good idea who might or who wants to quote this post only to state my point over again or just have the point "woosh" over their head.
I'm gona let this just play out.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Whaddya do? You f**king pewpew, that's what!
And as far as the WvWvW thing goes, there actually is pve in there. You aren't going to get massive groups of skilled pvpers, 100%. The server that does best, will be those who utilize the grind monkeys in pve in certain areas.
Well, to be honest, the whole point of being overly negative and nitpicky is generally to try and persuade others their nitpicks are quite big issues. If they're not, and why they aren't issues are explained in a nice, friendly concise way, people reading the thread who are on the fence will see the issues and then see why they aren't issues at all
Never try to convince another person in an internet debate. It doesn't work. What you do is provide the audience a balanced view that people can see and then make up their own minds. It quickly becomes obvious who's just 'overly nitpicky' and then the debate has been 'won'
But no-one will ever admit defeat, ever. That's why you never try to 'win'. You just have to essentially debunk or put into perspective any points made.
People will view the points in the (hopefully) more sensible light, say 'ahhh' and then cease to care
But all this debate is about is that snaylor still likes old 'gear grind' MMO's for their end game, which he is entitled to do, but GW2 does nothing at all of the sort. The statement is simply that it doesn't matter for this game, no matter what underlying tones snaylor is trying to imply. GW2 is not an 'old school' MMO and it is not designed to appeal to those who still like the 'gear treadmill' simply because there's a massive audience that don't! 
Played POTBS for 2 years, and rarely felt like I was grinding. Even when farming pve, there was a chance pvp could break out. Hell, against some of the more carebear nations, the only way to start pvp was to have it so they had npc allies on their side. Once I did, I switched to playing the pirates, and yeah, never did grinding the last few months of the game.
The game had a ton of other problems. But for me, a grindfest wasn't one of them until the end.
That really shows you haven't done a lot of pvp in games. When pvp is entirely gear based, the issue isn't whether it is a "challenge.' Once you get moderately competent people, it comes down all to gear, or who makes the first mistake.
Games that have intriguing pvp systems (from old school UO, DAOC, GW, POTBS), the tactics mattered just as much if not more than what you had on. They involved setting your build properly. Hitting this skill here. Hitting this counter there. Positioning this person there.
They allow you to do things in pvp you just can't do in WoW, TOR, etc.
The heart of the matter is essentially: what to do PvE content wise after your first 150-200 hours in an MMO?
Raiding has always been something to do what MMO gamers can chew on, but at its core it's about more challenging content that has enough longevity to keep MMO gamers entertained for additional few hundred of hours, and raiding managed that by providing more difficult and harder to master PvE content which means it'll require more time to 'beat' the content, while at the same time it'll appease the achiever type of MMO gamer in Bartle's model, because of the rewards and bragging rights that it'll give.If you dismiss that as a mechanic, it simply means that alternatives have to be found. Or looking at it this way: for people who spend easily hundreds of hours in an MMORPG or want to do that, there has to be something to entertain them after that first 150-200 hours. To reach level cap in GW2, from earlier statements it'll be something like 90-100 hours on average. After that, what remains to keep MMO gamers entertained PvE wise is dungeons, minigames, doing dailies/achievements and exploring DE's over the world or the toughest meta events around. Will this be enough? Only time can tell.
But what applies to other MMO's applies in GW2 as well: if you enjoy your time and gameplay in an MMO, then you can find activities fun and entertaining that you might find a bore or grind when done in an MMO you dislike or have grown tired and bored with.Like hitting an assassin's lead attack with distracting shot
True, very true, I actually agree.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
It's a low (EDIT: It was the 'realistic' estimate, not raw content) estimate speculation
I'm assuming about 2 hours per dungeon's explorable mode (it's been said to take about that long), about 30 hours for the storyline missions (of which there at least 5, i'm not including the major branches such as supporting the vigil ect. - i'm including explorable mode dungeons in this number, of which there's 8) and linking quests (assuming it's anything like GW1), that the 1.5k dynamic events average at ~10 minutes (some are longer, some are shorter), and the 'heart quests' take about 5 minutes, of which there are about 700. I'm not taking into account any 'meta events' either. Oh, and i assume you'd have to actually move between the events, so i multiplied it by a factor of 1.2 considering that seems roughly right from videos (i.e. the time you spend not actively doing the quests). I'm also not including skill point quests because you'll run into them during that 1.2 factor i added.
It works out to be roughly 1k (EDIT: 600) hours or so. I don't think there's anything insane in my estimates whatsoever (you could nitpick some numbers, and i'm very sure people will). For me, any game with above 100 hours gameplay for £40 is pretty damn good. So yeah, 1k hours to 'complete' GW2 if you're dedicated to PvE and don't fail the dungeons multiple times.
EDIT: Actually the 1k hours was a different estimation, which included the fact to replay the story you'll need to actually make new characters (and therefore repeat some events) which take about 120 hours to reach max level, which is an additional '90 hours' times 4 for those characters on top of the 600 which takes us up to 960 (this is assuming serious PvE play on those characters with no lollygaggin'!), therefore ~1k hours . The 'raw content' figure is 600 hours
Sorry about that. Got the two estimate messed up ^^ realistically to do the stories ect. you're looking at that 1k figure, but raw content, assuming you could simply just play the stories in isolation, would be about 600 hours.
If the game is fun, when someone says "what you've been doing the entire time", I say awesome. that's what I did with SWG. I maxed out my build, and when I asked "what's there to do now" someone said:
"You can come with us and go blow up bases. Want to go explore dathomir? Go do it. Go look for contracts to fulfill for crafters doing pve. Or you just started a crafting industry. Now all you gotta do is take it to the next level."
In POTBS, I was told once I was 50, that I should start attacking other players ports and getitng into as many 6 v 6 pvp battles I could, which is kinda like what I was doing on my way to 50. I stuck around, because it was FUN.
It doesn't make things worse in longevity, unless it isn't fun. TOR offers nothing but more of the same for their "endgame." The problem is, it just isn't fun for a lot of people, and for those it is fun for, it is insanely buggy right now to boot lulz.
Dungeons, pvp and continue to craft as well as high end dynamic events.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
I'm really not sure this point is worth explaining anymore. There's more than enough info out on this game. Some people get it, some won't even if we spell it out.
To be honest, if you find yourself asking this question when looking @ GW2, you are probably missing the entire point to the game. It may have lvls, but it's not really based off of it. You could look at it more like GTA progression-wise. You can either blow through the game's 'main story' and then shelve it, or you can look around you and realize there's an entire world to explore / achievements to obtain, or you can do both.
This isn't a game that forces you to be max lvl to have fun w/ the big kids. There's a bit of a ramp up at the start, to get you going (ie learning your first weapon skills / getting your first skill points), and then after that you can pretty much do w/e you want. Or you can just roll a PvP toon right off the bat, forget all that PvE crap, and go straight into PvP action. In GW1 I tended to do a mix of both. The majority of my character slots would be PvE characters, to enjoy the story, get the cool looking armor / capture the more interesting skills, get the achievements / etc. And then my last 1-2 character slots I would reserve just for PvP, so if I wanted to dive straight into some action, I didn't need to see if I had the right class, skills, or setup for the type of PvP I was doing. I could just customize a new character (with a reserved name) to PvP however I wanted at that point in time. I have yet to play another MMO that lets you do that, and it is such a great mechanic.
In terms of pve , as in gear-progression , it will not be like current-wow where you will need to keep farming dungeons to get shinier purples.
Imagine this .... The time during vanilla WoW , but there is no purple and raid-instances. The item-level's of equipmets you get from different dungeon are the same , but in term of stats they are not . There lies the ol' but new complexity of Gw2 , some going to be direct damage oriented , debuff/buff oriented , support oriented and Hp+resistance oriented . It All depends on the trait you will be putting (stat-talenting ) and your different playstyle.
Just my 5 penny view , it will probably be more complex than your current MMORPGS, while most mmos currently are simply using the basic holy trinity , like WOW you can only see their gears consist mostly 3 sets for every class, eg: dps-gear and tank/heal-gears. So technically for healing pally (for example) , the stats needed would be intellect, and other secondary stat . Kinda makes it rigid about getting gears. Wheras in gw2 , the only thing u need to worry is : whether the gear is light , medium or heavy armours .
And to add notes , ppl keep saying cosmetic isnt an important factor, i'd like to differ.
Take myself playing DCU online , sometimes it takes me half an hour pimping up my hero to llook as pretty and badass as possible , and honestly i feel more fullfilled doing that than daily questing while waiting for my daily dungeon in WoW.