I think it is safe to say that neitiher developers of TSW or GW2 have said they are seeking to revolutionize PVE/PVP, make changes / improvements sure, but revolutionize is going too far.
If there is a statement saying otherwise, feel free to provide it.
I apologise to the TSW fans if you think I intentionally made this thread to bait out the GW2 fanboys(I will be playing GW2 as well) -_-
That being said, I will give TSW a try because I'm sick of all the usual PVE mechanics since WOW/FFXI and I'm willing to give this game a try because they dare to do something new.
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance). There is a reason they are so tight with the information about TSW, they don't want to repeat the process which makes people call them liars. I think they are overdoing it with TSW since there isn't a single proper gameplay video, but it's probably because they don't feel they are close enough to the final product. In other words, it ain't finished - there is a reason they delayed launch until June 19th.
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance). There is a reason they are so tight with the information about TSW, they don't want to repeat the process which makes people call them liars. I think they are overdoing it with TSW since there isn't a single proper gameplay video, but it's probably because they don't feel they are close enough to the final product. In other words, it ain't finished - there is a reason they delayed launch until June 19th.
If they don't have most of the gameplay down by now they never will, a few extra months is not going to help them.
AoC to this day is still heavily mismanaged. Simply look at the last patch that revamped the ressurect system. When my girlfriend mentioned they removed shield of the risen on newly ressed people I just facepalmed and said hello respad ganking. 2 minutes later my girlfriend read a few posts online which basically said it's respad ganking heaven. Casters would be in perma spellweave and wipe the floor with newly ressed people. Guardians could get massive kill counts. They put shield of the risen back now, but the inability to even foreseeing this is staggering.
They are also planning a revamp on the crafting system, does it need it yes, but they are going to wipe years of people progress in crafting in the progress. The community would be in an uproar if they did this to raiding, but since it is crafting non crafters just go oh well, because it doesn't affect them.
This is the attitude at Funcom as a company, so no matter if it is a different team or not for TSW does not matter. The same type of people will be working on TSW. It's probably a save bet to say that a good portion of the devs of TSW worked on AoC as well.
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
Just because you read something you wanted into developer statements doesn't mean someone lied to you.
Being a huge fan of AO, i followed AoC religiously during development and through release. While I was disappointed with the game for many reasons, the game turned out pretty much exactly as I had expected based on developer information pre-release. Many very cool features were dropped - we lost the afterlife system, pve sieging, the combat rose, the 100% single-player tortage, etc. - but even this was clearly communicated if one was actually paying attention.
The fact that you wanted it to be something else and turned out not to isn't a lie, it's your failure to discern information. There are laws that govern false advertising and things like that. Trust me, if someone had any kind of reasonable case for "Funcom lied", the company would have been successfully sued by hordes of angry americans by now.
The only truly unexpected thing were the technical issues, but honeslty, tech issues are pretty much the norm in the MMO industry - if you're not willing to put up with some tech issues, i suggest sticking to console games.
Personally, i left AoC disappointed after about 3 months. Despite all evidence to the contrary, i had convinced myself that AoC would be a good PvE, however, it turned out to be largely PvP. Did Funcom lie to me? No. I just assumed wrong. I don't need to blame someone else for my mistakes.
Also, lol @ the instancing comment. Considering that it was FC's use of instancing that helped revolutionize the industry with AO, it's kinda ironic to say that their use of instancing will hinder their ability to revolutionize. (Not that i expect TSW to revolutionize anything other than the use of a modern setting and incorporation of RL sources into quests).
You want to talk about developer lies, ask the fans of SWG and Vanguard. There probably WERE grounds for lawsuits considering the crap developers told people about those games. AS far as Funcom - they are an innovative company that tries to use many new things in their games, some of these things work out, others do not. Most of the time, they'll tell you honestly that a feature hasn't worked out and won't make into the game. It's not a lie, it's game development.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance).
They were lies. They advertised that they had these features right up until launch day. Stuff like 8 directional combat, aiming spells and arrows, not being able to insta stealth, those were all dropped unfinished features? Please.
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance).
They were lies. They advertised that they had these features right up until launch day. Stuff like 8 directional combat, aiming spells and arrows, not being able to insta stealth, those were all dropped unfinished features? Please.
8-directional combat was changed based on beta feedback from players, it actually WAS in the (beta) at one point. I could aim certain spells even on launch, perhaps you just played a class that couldn't. Stealth was completely revamped when they chose to drop the thieving mini-game - also in beta. I can't speak to arrows as i never played an arrow class, but the other 3 out of the 4 things you mentioned were all changed/adjusted in beta - as is normal in development.
The combat change was the biggest one. Many of us that like more complex gaming were sad to see the combat rose go, but it was ultimately a decision made based on player feedback, not lack of developer interest - i mean, they already had it made, they actually had to redo it in order to make it what it ended up being.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance).
They were lies. They advertised that they had these features right up until launch day. Stuff like 8 directional combat, aiming spells and arrows, not being able to insta stealth, those were all dropped unfinished features? Please.
8-directional combat was changed based on beta feedback from players, it actually WAS in the (beta) at one point. I could aim certain spells even on launch, perhaps you just played a class that couldn't. Stealth was completely revamped when they chose to drop the thieving mini-game - also in beta. I can't speak to arrows as i never played an arrow class, but the other 3 out of the 4 things you mentioned were all changed/adjusted in beta - as is normal in development.
So what you're saying is... they dropped all their promised features in beta, didn't tell ANYONE, and sold the game as if those things were still there? Right. That's not a lie. Not at all.
I dunno about PVE but I think TSW's questing can very possibly revolutionize quests in MMOs. With their investigative quests, It seems like they have finally figured out how to make non-generic quests, something people have been trying to do for a very long time.
The level up process in TSW may be different due to the somewhat unique skill deck/build system - but make no mistakes that you will be doing quests, have tons of instancing, and that the holy trinity of tank/dps/heal is in full on effect. Revolutionizing PvE as much as TOR does/did with VO. Just a new, shiny package for the same old thing we've been doing since 2004.
THIS ^^^
Its just the same old presented in a different way... And at times thats what is needed, different Presentation..
Presentation can fool your audience into thinking your being revolutionary..
GW2 use of the none trinity way, isn't new but its presented in such away, that it just look cool, and the same can be said of its WvWvW..
NO need to re-invent the wheel, just change the rims...
I think people are way too focused on something being 'completely innovative and revolutionary'. Look at other gaming genres: shooters, RTS games, etc. Do you see revolutionary mechanics with games in that genre that never have been seen before? Maybe a few, here and there, but mostly it's features and mechanics that have been done before but that have been built further on or improved.
In the case here, people are focusing on things that'll be the same, namely that you'll do missions/quests - lol, on the side if that's the criterium then Skyrim is nothing but same old bc you'll do quests/missions in it anyway, heck, all RPG's are same old then. But while focusing on things that are the same, some people tend to ignore the things that are different: Investigation Missions, that require you to solve puzzles and even do research on the internet to progress further to a next step in the mission is definitely not 'kill 10 rats' or 'fetch this', no classes and no levels while your clothes have no stats on them, skills that have several attributes designed to interact with other skill effects in a Magic the Gathering kind of way. While some things may have been done in other MMO's, it's definitely not seen in the vast majority of MMO's, which in my book doesn't make it 'same old' at all.
I wish some people would be more realistic about things: way too much black and white thinking on these forums, like if something isn't radically, completely different and 100% new and innovative, then it becomes 'same old'. Right. As if there can't be mechanics and features that are different from the norm while at the same time there'll be features that are the same.
edit: after posting I realise this post might be seen as a dismissal or disagreeing on your post, Xstatic, it's not. It's more of a further commenting on the topic. I do disagree with Badspock's post though.
stop listening to their drivel .. test the game if you can .. don't pre-order. they don't deserve the trust (though anet might of any of them .. funcom sure as hell doesn't) ..
if nothing else research the hell out of it first.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
It's Funcom. Their last time hawking a game was 90% lies. We'll wait and see.
And I hardly think they can revolutionize everything with how much instancing they're abusing.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance).
They were lies. They advertised that they had these features right up until launch day. Stuff like 8 directional combat, aiming spells and arrows, not being able to insta stealth, those were all dropped unfinished features? Please.
8-directional combat was changed based on beta feedback from players, it actually WAS in the (beta) at one point. I could aim certain spells even on launch, perhaps you just played a class that couldn't. Stealth was completely revamped when they chose to drop the thieving mini-game - also in beta. I can't speak to arrows as i never played an arrow class, but the other 3 out of the 4 things you mentioned were all changed/adjusted in beta - as is normal in development.
So what you're saying is... they dropped all their promised features in beta, didn't tell ANYONE, and sold the game as if those things were still there? Right. That's not a lie. Not at all.
No, what i'm saying is that they had many concepts that they tried, some of which didn't work out and didn't end up in the game. The dropping of all the above things was communicated to players throughout beta (even those that weren't in the beta). I actually found that AoC's DEVs were a lot more forthcoming than DEVs from other major titles in terms of talking honestly about the challenges they were encountering.
One can say the same thing about TSW - initially Funcom creates a completely open "classless" system with 500+ skills. When the game launches and people find that most people a playing with a preset deck, people like you are going to scream: "OMG, the game actually has classes! THEY LIED!", but really, the information that decks have recently been added to the game based on beta feedback is freely available. If choose to ignore it, you may end up feeling like you've been lied to, but that has nothing to do with Funcom and everything to do with your perceptions.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I wish some people would be more realistic about things: way too much black and white thinking on these forums, like if something isn't radically, completely different and 100% new and innovative, then it becomes 'same old'. Right. As if there can't be mechanics and features that are different from the norm while at the same time there'll be features that are the same.
I completely agree with you here, especially the part of the Black and White thinking. I was honestly just thinking the same thing as I got out of the shower. There is too much either or.
I also find your comment about things "having to be radically different" spot on as all the people here ingest content that is not one iota "new and different" as everything is based on something that has come before. And yet for some reasons video games, mmo's in particualr, seem to hvae to buck this trend and be "completely new".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
One can say the same thing about TSW - initially Funcom creates a completely open "classless" system with 500+ skills. When the game launches and people find that most people a playing with a preset deck, people like you are going to scream: "OMG, the game actually has classes! THEY LIED!", but really, the information that decks have recently been added to the game based on beta feedback is freely available. If choose to ignore it, you may end up feeling like you've been lied to, but that has nothing to do with Funcom and everything to do with your perceptions.
Just had to fill in that decks (or templates as they were called before) has been planned for the game a long time, and that it's just a way to help people who think the ability wheel is too overwhelming to get a good solid build. You can still pick among the 588 abilities at will.
Comments
I think it is safe to say that neitiher developers of TSW or GW2 have said they are seeking to revolutionize PVE/PVP, make changes / improvements sure, but revolutionize is going too far.
If there is a statement saying otherwise, feel free to provide it.
Short answer to OP, No.
Hey guys, OP here.
I apologise to the TSW fans if you think I intentionally made this thread to bait out the GW2 fanboys(I will be playing GW2 as well) -_-
That being said, I will give TSW a try because I'm sick of all the usual PVE mechanics since WOW/FFXI and I'm willing to give this game a try because they dare to do something new.
They weren't lies, they were unfinished features that got dropped (drunken brawling for instance). There is a reason they are so tight with the information about TSW, they don't want to repeat the process which makes people call them liars. I think they are overdoing it with TSW since there isn't a single proper gameplay video, but it's probably because they don't feel they are close enough to the final product. In other words, it ain't finished - there is a reason they delayed launch until June 19th.
If they don't have most of the gameplay down by now they never will, a few extra months is not going to help them.
AoC to this day is still heavily mismanaged. Simply look at the last patch that revamped the ressurect system. When my girlfriend mentioned they removed shield of the risen on newly ressed people I just facepalmed and said hello respad ganking. 2 minutes later my girlfriend read a few posts online which basically said it's respad ganking heaven. Casters would be in perma spellweave and wipe the floor with newly ressed people. Guardians could get massive kill counts. They put shield of the risen back now, but the inability to even foreseeing this is staggering.
They are also planning a revamp on the crafting system, does it need it yes, but they are going to wipe years of people progress in crafting in the progress. The community would be in an uproar if they did this to raiding, but since it is crafting non crafters just go oh well, because it doesn't affect them.
This is the attitude at Funcom as a company, so no matter if it is a different team or not for TSW does not matter. The same type of people will be working on TSW. It's probably a save bet to say that a good portion of the devs of TSW worked on AoC as well.
Connmacart There was supposed to be a temporary shield of the risen (5-10 seconds), but it obviously didn't work as intended.
Regarding gameplay, 4 months is quite a lot of time when it comes to animations, spell effects, balancing and things like that.
Just because you read something you wanted into developer statements doesn't mean someone lied to you.
Being a huge fan of AO, i followed AoC religiously during development and through release. While I was disappointed with the game for many reasons, the game turned out pretty much exactly as I had expected based on developer information pre-release. Many very cool features were dropped - we lost the afterlife system, pve sieging, the combat rose, the 100% single-player tortage, etc. - but even this was clearly communicated if one was actually paying attention.
The fact that you wanted it to be something else and turned out not to isn't a lie, it's your failure to discern information. There are laws that govern false advertising and things like that. Trust me, if someone had any kind of reasonable case for "Funcom lied", the company would have been successfully sued by hordes of angry americans by now.
The only truly unexpected thing were the technical issues, but honeslty, tech issues are pretty much the norm in the MMO industry - if you're not willing to put up with some tech issues, i suggest sticking to console games.
Personally, i left AoC disappointed after about 3 months. Despite all evidence to the contrary, i had convinced myself that AoC would be a good PvE, however, it turned out to be largely PvP. Did Funcom lie to me? No. I just assumed wrong. I don't need to blame someone else for my mistakes.
Also, lol @ the instancing comment. Considering that it was FC's use of instancing that helped revolutionize the industry with AO, it's kinda ironic to say that their use of instancing will hinder their ability to revolutionize. (Not that i expect TSW to revolutionize anything other than the use of a modern setting and incorporation of RL sources into quests).
You want to talk about developer lies, ask the fans of SWG and Vanguard. There probably WERE grounds for lawsuits considering the crap developers told people about those games. AS far as Funcom - they are an innovative company that tries to use many new things in their games, some of these things work out, others do not. Most of the time, they'll tell you honestly that a feature hasn't worked out and won't make into the game. It's not a lie, it's game development.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
They were lies. They advertised that they had these features right up until launch day. Stuff like 8 directional combat, aiming spells and arrows, not being able to insta stealth, those were all dropped unfinished features? Please.
Darkfall Travelogues!
8-directional combat was changed based on beta feedback from players, it actually WAS in the (beta) at one point. I could aim certain spells even on launch, perhaps you just played a class that couldn't. Stealth was completely revamped when they chose to drop the thieving mini-game - also in beta. I can't speak to arrows as i never played an arrow class, but the other 3 out of the 4 things you mentioned were all changed/adjusted in beta - as is normal in development.
The combat change was the biggest one. Many of us that like more complex gaming were sad to see the combat rose go, but it was ultimately a decision made based on player feedback, not lack of developer interest - i mean, they already had it made, they actually had to redo it in order to make it what it ended up being.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
So what you're saying is... they dropped all their promised features in beta, didn't tell ANYONE, and sold the game as if those things were still there? Right. That's not a lie. Not at all.
I dunno about PVE but I think TSW's questing can very possibly revolutionize quests in MMOs. With their investigative quests, It seems like they have finally figured out how to make non-generic quests, something people have been trying to do for a very long time.
THIS ^^^
Its just the same old presented in a different way... And at times thats what is needed, different Presentation..
Presentation can fool your audience into thinking your being revolutionary..
GW2 use of the none trinity way, isn't new but its presented in such away, that it just look cool, and the same can be said of its WvWvW..
NO need to re-invent the wheel, just change the rims...
THIS ^^^
Its just the same old presented in a different way... And at times thats what is needed, different Presentation..
Presentation can fool your audience into thinking your being revolutionary..
GW2 use of the none trinity way, isn't new but its presented in such away, that it just look cool, and the same can be said of its WvWvW..
NO need to re-invent the wheel, just change the rims...
I think people are way too focused on something being 'completely innovative and revolutionary'. Look at other gaming genres: shooters, RTS games, etc. Do you see revolutionary mechanics with games in that genre that never have been seen before? Maybe a few, here and there, but mostly it's features and mechanics that have been done before but that have been built further on or improved.
In the case here, people are focusing on things that'll be the same, namely that you'll do missions/quests - lol, on the side if that's the criterium then Skyrim is nothing but same old bc you'll do quests/missions in it anyway, heck, all RPG's are same old then. But while focusing on things that are the same, some people tend to ignore the things that are different: Investigation Missions, that require you to solve puzzles and even do research on the internet to progress further to a next step in the mission is definitely not 'kill 10 rats' or 'fetch this', no classes and no levels while your clothes have no stats on them, skills that have several attributes designed to interact with other skill effects in a Magic the Gathering kind of way. While some things may have been done in other MMO's, it's definitely not seen in the vast majority of MMO's, which in my book doesn't make it 'same old' at all.I wish some people would be more realistic about things: way too much black and white thinking on these forums, like if something isn't radically, completely different and 100% new and innovative, then it becomes 'same old'. Right. As if there can't be mechanics and features that are different from the norm while at the same time there'll be features that are the same.
edit: after posting I realise this post might be seen as a dismissal or disagreeing on your post, Xstatic, it's not. It's more of a further commenting on the topic. I do disagree with Badspock's post though.
catch phrases .. marketing .. positioning.
stop listening to their drivel .. test the game if you can .. don't pre-order. they don't deserve the trust (though anet might of any of them .. funcom sure as hell doesn't) ..
if nothing else research the hell out of it first.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
No, what i'm saying is that they had many concepts that they tried, some of which didn't work out and didn't end up in the game. The dropping of all the above things was communicated to players throughout beta (even those that weren't in the beta). I actually found that AoC's DEVs were a lot more forthcoming than DEVs from other major titles in terms of talking honestly about the challenges they were encountering.
One can say the same thing about TSW - initially Funcom creates a completely open "classless" system with 500+ skills. When the game launches and people find that most people a playing with a preset deck, people like you are going to scream: "OMG, the game actually has classes! THEY LIED!", but really, the information that decks have recently been added to the game based on beta feedback is freely available. If choose to ignore it, you may end up feeling like you've been lied to, but that has nothing to do with Funcom and everything to do with your perceptions.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I completely agree with you here, especially the part of the Black and White thinking. I was honestly just thinking the same thing as I got out of the shower. There is too much either or.
I also find your comment about things "having to be radically different" spot on as all the people here ingest content that is not one iota "new and different" as everything is based on something that has come before. And yet for some reasons video games, mmo's in particualr, seem to hvae to buck this trend and be "completely new".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Just had to fill in that decks (or templates as they were called before) has been planned for the game a long time, and that it's just a way to help people who think the ability wheel is too overwhelming to get a good solid build. You can still pick among the 588 abilities at will.