Saying that MMO's are about progression is a huge generalization that is obviously wrong. GW1 and GW2 do not follow this mantra and some of us LOVE that.
The PvP in GW1 and 2 may not be about progression, but the PvE definitely is...and that's really what makes it an MMORPG.
If you take the PvE out...GW1/2 would basically be an MOBA without leveling .
Actually...that's kind of what I think of GW1/2 as. It's basically like 2 games. An MMORPG, and a MOBA-esque PvP game without leveling or gold acquisition.
Thats exactly why you can't say MMO's are about progression, they are partly about progression. But not completely like the OP is trying to point out.
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
Saying that MMO's are about progression is a huge generalization that is obviously wrong. GW1 and GW2 do not follow this mantra and some of us LOVE that.
The PvP in GW1 and 2 may not be about progression, but the PvE definitely is...and that's really what makes it an MMORPG.
If you take the PvE out...GW1/2 would basically be an MOBA without leveling .
Actually...that's kind of what I think of GW1/2 as. It's basically like 2 games. An MMORPG, and a MOBA-esque PvP game without leveling or gold acquisition.
Thats exactly why you can't say MMO's are about progression, they are partly about progression. But not completely like the OP is trying to point out.
Not every single thing in an MMORPG has to be about progression, but progression is definitely a huge part of it. Basically...I don't think you could call a game without any progression an MMORPG.
TBH, I really think BG PvP in general kind of exists "outside" of the actual MMORPG that it is a part of. It's basically just like a side activity to do that has little to do with the rest of the game.
This isn't saying that I don't like BG PvP, I do...I just don't feel like it's really a cohesive part of the game.
Saying that MMO's are about progression is a huge generalization that is obviously wrong. GW1 and GW2 do not follow this mantra and some of us LOVE that.
The PvP in GW1 and 2 may not be about progression, but the PvE definitely is...and that's really what makes it an MMORPG.
If you take the PvE out...GW1/2 would basically be an MOBA without leveling .
Actually...that's kind of what I think of GW1/2 as. It's basically like 2 games. An MMORPG, and a MOBA-esque PvP game without leveling or gold acquisition.
...which I find very appealing. Seems to me that they are trying to eliminate many of the things that has many of us would-be PvPers rolling on PvE servers.
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
I am going to post my thoughts before reading all the dribble you guys keep throwing back and fourth. I know you all missed the point.
PvE in Guildwars is still completely progress based. Your PvE progression matters in PvE. Where it belongs.
Your PvP progression matters in PvP. Where it belongs. They are doing what they can to put everyone on a decent playing field to where your build, the skills your chose, your team, AND your skill at the game will all be the primary focus.
Just look at the one MMO everyone compares everything to, WoW. PvP turned into completely about progression inside and outside of PvP. If you had better gear then someone you beat them. Hands down.
MMO's are entirely about progression but if there should be any PvP progression it should be WITHIN PvP not out of it.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
It's...not...an...mmorpg.
They might call it that. It might be listed here. But it's not an mmorpg. It's an E-sport like SW:ToR. The lore is a joke, merely cosmetic so you have something to read about when you pick one of the 5 races that get to kill each other in a battleground or W v W v W. It's immediate gratification pvp with some pve tossed in for good measure.
It's not an mmorpg.
However, now that we've got that out of the way. You can still have fun with it. My ten year son likes MW3 and Black Ops though he thinks GW2 looks too childish, I still think it looks kind of fun
Saying that MMO's are about progression is a huge generalization that is obviously wrong. GW1 and GW2 do not follow this mantra and some of us LOVE that.
The PvP in GW1 and 2 may not be about progression, but the PvE definitely is...and that's really what makes it an MMORPG.
If you take the PvE out...GW1/2 would basically be an MOBA without leveling .
Actually...that's kind of what I think of GW1/2 as. It's basically like 2 games. An MMORPG, and a MOBA-esque PvP game without leveling or gold acquisition.
...which I find very appealing. Seems to me that they are trying to eliminate many of the things that has many of us would-be PvPers rolling on PvE servers.
I agree.
The main point is that MMORPG class mechanics have always leant themselves to a competitive team based PvP experience. And I think that's why BGs were first started. But the problem was that they never separate the BG PvP from the progression of the main game. So characters that were higher level would just crush the lower level ones.
They tried to get around this with level boosts or what not, but it never really worked. BGs never became competitive because the "progression" part of the PvE game always played too much into it.
GW1/2 basically made the realization that trying to tie your PvE progression to competitive PvP is just a bad idea. They are keeping it separate as it should be.
BGs are not really part of the main game, they are a separate activity that the game's mechanics just lend themselves to.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
It's...not...an...mmorpg.
They might call it that. It might be listed here. But it's not an mmorpg. It's an E-sport like SW:ToR. The lore is a joke, merely cosmetic so you have something to read about when you pick one of the 5 races that get to kill each other in a battleground or W v W v W. It's immediate gratification pvp with some pve tossed in for good measure.
It's not an mmorpg.
However, now that we've got that out of the way. You can still have fun with it. My ten yaer son like MW3 and Black Ops thoug he thinks GW2 looks too childish I still think it looks kind of fun
You are incorrect. It is a MMORPG. Get off your highhorse.
I am going to post my thoughts before reading all the dribble you guys keep throwing back and fourth. I know you all missed the point.
PvE in Guildwars is still completely progress based. Your PvE progression matters in PvE. Where it belongs.
Your PvP progression matters in PvP. Where it belongs. They are doing what they can to put everyone on a decent playing field to where your build, the skills your chose, your team, AND your skill at the game will all be the primary focus.
Just look at the one MMO everyone compares everything to, WoW. PvP turned into completely about progression inside and outside of PvP. If you had better gear then someone you beat them. Hands down.
MMO's are entirely about progression but if there should be any PvP progression it should be WITHIN PvP not out of it.
Which is along the lines of what everyone has been saying.
In fact post #8 said all of this and linked info to source it too.
:-)
I am all for a game that allows PVPers to start progressing and doing PVP right away, and still lets them PVE and progress through that at their own pace when they want to, and the reverse is ALSO true.
Sounds like they really thought this out and have a great plan.
I am going to post my thoughts before reading all the dribble you guys keep throwing back and fourth. I know you all missed the point.
PvE in Guildwars is still completely progress based. Your PvE progression matters in PvE. Where it belongs.
Your PvP progression matters in PvP. Where it belongs. They are doing what they can to put everyone on a decent playing field to where your build, the skills your chose, your team, AND your skill at the game will all be the primary focus.
Just look at the one MMO everyone compares everything to, WoW. PvP turned into completely about progression inside and outside of PvP. If you had better gear then someone you beat them. Hands down.
MMO's are entirely about progression but if there should be any PvP progression it should be WITHIN PvP not out of it.
Which is along the lines of what everyone has been saying.
In fact post #8 said all of this and linked info to source it too.
:-)
I am all for a game that allows PVPers to start progressing and doing PVP right away, and still lets them PVE and progress through that at their own pace when they want to, and the reverse is ALSO true.
Sounds like they really thought this out and have a great plan.
I went through the posts and you are right a couple hit the nail right on the head. But people are still not getting it so let's just keep repeating ourselves till we turn blue in the faces and they realize their mistakes hah.
GW2 promising to do the right things. All we have to do is see if they deliver.
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
So...just like SWTOR...
Pretty much, yes.
The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...
WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear. Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain no skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents. That was the problem with SWTOR. If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.
Guild wars let you make a level 20 just to start PVPing, so you could PVP right away.
GW 2 has a similar system, where you are buffed to "end gameish" stats and lets you PVP right away if you desire, letting you earn PVP gear and status. THEN letting you go PVE if you so desire and play through the PVE leveling game at any time back and forth.
Its a natrual progression of the system. An Evolution if you will.
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
So...just like SWTOR...
Pretty much, yes.
The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...
WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear. Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents. That was the problem with SWTOR. If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.
One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
MMORPGs can be 'about' whatever the designer wants them to be about. Not every game has to be built to your preconceptions.
As for the levelling up for WvWvW... it's called removing the barriers to play, and, frankly, it's the way more themeparks should have been thought about at the design stage.
Not every MMO has to be the same. They don't all have to clones of what you already know. Accept that and we all will be happier.
The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...
WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear. Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents. That was the problem with SWTOR. If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.
Interesting I had not heard this about BG's but then I've mostly only been paying attention to Mists PVP the WvWvW is whats really caught my attention so far. Thanks for the info on BG's That system actually sounds really well designed and thought out.
Edit: I really hated how higher levels had a clear advantage over you in SWTOR even if it wasn't suposed to be that great of an advantage it was pretty significant.
One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.
You can't enter the instanced PvP (BG's) with a PvE toon.
I don't think you understand...
As soon as you join the BG game, you have a completely maxed out toon to use for the duration of that game.
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
So...just like SWTOR...
Pretty much, yes.
The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...
WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear. Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain to skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents. That was the problem with SWTOR. If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.
One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.
I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
Now hold that thought, and read your own post once again.
Guild Wars 2 has skill based PvP (being 50% of the game, so to say) and progression based PvE (the other 50%), therefore your negative point was...?
But I know what you mean, of course. However, progression based PvP will *never* work. It hever has, and never will. There will always be unfair difference in level/gear in such a system, leading to crazy imbalance and a flood of negativity from players. It leads to camping, ganking, griefing, lolwtfpawning and all the worst behaviour you can imagine.
GW2 is finally doing what MMO's should have done from the very start. And there is progressing in it too, but its the progression of your own skill, not some pointless invisible floating point values in the game code.
Comments
Thats exactly why you can't say MMO's are about progression, they are partly about progression. But not completely like the OP is trying to point out.
"I wish you devs would be more innovative!!!"
"Well, what if we built ______?"
"No way! Are you crazy? Make it _____ like other games do! Except innovative!!!"
"OK, ok. Then what do you want?"
"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000..."
So...just like SWTOR...
Not every single thing in an MMORPG has to be about progression, but progression is definitely a huge part of it. Basically...I don't think you could call a game without any progression an MMORPG.
TBH, I really think BG PvP in general kind of exists "outside" of the actual MMORPG that it is a part of. It's basically just like a side activity to do that has little to do with the rest of the game.
This isn't saying that I don't like BG PvP, I do...I just don't feel like it's really a cohesive part of the game.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Did I miss something?
I didn't get the sense that this guy was trolling.
Maybe misinformed but not trolling. Idunno, maybe he was just better than me at it.
So why all the hostility?
Just answer his question?
...which I find very appealing. Seems to me that they are trying to eliminate many of the things that has many of us would-be PvPers rolling on PvE servers.
Pretty much, yes.
lol
I am going to post my thoughts before reading all the dribble you guys keep throwing back and fourth. I know you all missed the point.
PvE in Guildwars is still completely progress based. Your PvE progression matters in PvE. Where it belongs.
Your PvP progression matters in PvP. Where it belongs. They are doing what they can to put everyone on a decent playing field to where your build, the skills your chose, your team, AND your skill at the game will all be the primary focus.
Just look at the one MMO everyone compares everything to, WoW. PvP turned into completely about progression inside and outside of PvP. If you had better gear then someone you beat them. Hands down.
MMO's are entirely about progression but if there should be any PvP progression it should be WITHIN PvP not out of it.
It's...not...an...mmorpg.
They might call it that. It might be listed here. But it's not an mmorpg. It's an E-sport like SW:ToR. The lore is a joke, merely cosmetic so you have something to read about when you pick one of the 5 races that get to kill each other in a battleground or W v W v W. It's immediate gratification pvp with some pve tossed in for good measure.
It's not an mmorpg.
However, now that we've got that out of the way. You can still have fun with it. My ten year son likes MW3 and Black Ops though he thinks GW2 looks too childish, I still think it looks kind of fun
I agree.
The main point is that MMORPG class mechanics have always leant themselves to a competitive team based PvP experience. And I think that's why BGs were first started. But the problem was that they never separate the BG PvP from the progression of the main game. So characters that were higher level would just crush the lower level ones.
They tried to get around this with level boosts or what not, but it never really worked. BGs never became competitive because the "progression" part of the PvE game always played too much into it.
GW1/2 basically made the realization that trying to tie your PvE progression to competitive PvP is just a bad idea. They are keeping it separate as it should be.
BGs are not really part of the main game, they are a separate activity that the game's mechanics just lend themselves to.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You are incorrect. It is a MMORPG. Get off your highhorse.
If you do not like the direction of a game, do not purchase it.
if you don't like a tv show, change the channel.
Plenty of other potentially great MMOs in the works.
Exuse me while I go troll every game I don't believe it because it is new and original.
Which is along the lines of what everyone has been saying.
In fact post #8 said all of this and linked info to source it too.
:-)
I am all for a game that allows PVPers to start progressing and doing PVP right away, and still lets them PVE and progress through that at their own pace when they want to, and the reverse is ALSO true.
Sounds like they really thought this out and have a great plan.
I went through the posts and you are right a couple hit the nail right on the head. But people are still not getting it so let's just keep repeating ourselves till we turn blue in the faces and they realize their mistakes hah.
GW2 promising to do the right things. All we have to do is see if they deliver.
GW had 20 levels, GW2 has 80 not the same thing.
The WvW level-boosting is just like SWTOR, but the competitive PvP (BG) level boosting is not...
WHen you do a BG, you essentially play a different character that just happens to look like you and be the same class, but is level 80, has all the skills, and has max level gear. Compare this to SWTOR where you are just statistically boosed to level 50 but you gain no skills, and are stuck with your current gear and talents. That was the problem with SWTOR. If you boost a level 15 to level 50, he will still get owned by the level 50 because the level 50 has all the skills, better gear, etc.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Guild wars let you make a level 20 just to start PVPing, so you could PVP right away.
GW 2 has a similar system, where you are buffed to "end gameish" stats and lets you PVP right away if you desire, letting you earn PVP gear and status. THEN letting you go PVE if you so desire and play through the PVE leveling game at any time back and forth.
Its a natrual progression of the system. An Evolution if you will.
One can also enter BG' s with his PVE character. Unless Anet is somehow telling the players to use only PVP characters for BG. because if you enter BG with your PVE toon you are at serious disadvantage.
MMORPGs can be 'about' whatever the designer wants them to be about. Not every game has to be built to your preconceptions.
As for the levelling up for WvWvW... it's called removing the barriers to play, and, frankly, it's the way more themeparks should have been thought about at the design stage.
Not every MMO has to be the same. They don't all have to clones of what you already know. Accept that and we all will be happier.
Interesting I had not heard this about BG's but then I've mostly only been paying attention to Mists PVP the WvWvW is whats really caught my attention so far. Thanks for the info on BG's That system actually sounds really well designed and thought out.
Edit: I really hated how higher levels had a clear advantage over you in SWTOR even if it wasn't suposed to be that great of an advantage it was pretty significant.
You can't enter the instanced PvP (BG's) with a PvE toon.
I don't think you understand...
As soon as you join the BG game, you have a completely maxed out toon to use for the duration of that game.
Gear, stats, level, skill unlocks, everything.
Same as GW1 don't see why they wouldn't have it in 2.
I think the way it works is that if you enter a BG with a level 10 PvE character, you are instantly boosted to levle 80 and given access to all skills, traits, and max level gear.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Now hold that thought, and read your own post once again.
Guild Wars 2 has skill based PvP (being 50% of the game, so to say) and progression based PvE (the other 50%), therefore your negative point was...?
But I know what you mean, of course. However, progression based PvP will *never* work. It hever has, and never will. There will always be unfair difference in level/gear in such a system, leading to crazy imbalance and a flood of negativity from players. It leads to camping, ganking, griefing, lolwtfpawning and all the worst behaviour you can imagine.
GW2 is finally doing what MMO's should have done from the very start. And there is progressing in it too, but its the progression of your own skill, not some pointless invisible floating point values in the game code.
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570