To me that is not risk that is making the action undertaken more diffcult, but the tension or pressure of being watched, not merely or even the fact of losing anything yet could the lose be part of it maybe. It is the fact of or tension from being watched at that point weither it is for the game winning shot, or not that makes the actions more challenging, but the risk of losing is not the main component that makes the action harder. Even in situations where your action is not going to make or break you, if you are the focal point of attention, than what you are attempting to do is going to be more difficult then if you were doing it without that attention. Even to many that play perma-death/risk based games it is not that the risk makes the game more challenging that is what they seek, but that the risk makes the game feel more meaningful as they progress. As you said in your example of being infront of 80,000 spectators with the cup final on the line, it is not so much that the cup final is on the line, but that you have 80,000 people watching you that makes the action harder. While the fact that the cup final being at stake merely adds somethign small to the tension of the massive amount of people watching your action, but it is far from the risk that makes the action hard, but is the fact that your every movement is being watched at that moment which makes proforming the action harder. In almost any game where you have masssive amounts of people watching the ouotcome of the game, then you have this fact of actions that would normally be easy getting harder to proform, but it is not the risk that makes them hard, but merely the fact that you are being watched by a massive amount of people.
Sorry no, the risk of losing something does indeed add a psychological layer which does indeed make even the most simplistic and most mundane taskes more "challenging" due to the psychological stress.
Having a cup final at stake adds the risk of loss. Having 80,000 people watching you adds the risk of looking like a complete tit in front of 80,000 people.
If I asked you to walk across along a plank of wood 10 meters long by 6 inches wide you would be able to pretty much run along it with zero effort. Do the same when the wood is reaching across a 500 ft vertical drop and tell me is it now as "easy"? The mechanical task is, the actual task of getting yourself across it is clearly not. No one would be watching you but you can bet your ass it would be "harder" all of a sudden.
If you thrive in risk conditions it would be a cake walk for you and my hypothesis would be incorrect in your scenario, but then not everyone thrives in risk based conditions. They find having an element of risk increases the challenge of the taks due to the fear of loss.
Risk can and does increase "challenge" through psychological factors, the mechanics remain the same, the mental challenge increases.
As someone who enjoys risk in entertainment activities as well as someone who works in a heavily risk based industry (derivatives) I am well aware that risk brings different things to different people. Often those people who actively seek risk do not see a great shift in "challenge" because they thrive in risk based conditions. But then plenty of people do indeed find risk based scenarios more challenging due to psychological reasons. Ergo whilst not everyone will be taking part in risk based activities due to an increase in perceived challenge, for many, risk can and does increase "challenge".
There is a world of difference between doing a task with zero risk involved and doing the same task when something important is on the line. Some people find it equally easy, some struggle. All down to the individuals mental approach to risk and the psychological impact it can have.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I played a Perma Death FFA PvP MUD called Utopia back in the late 90s for 3 years and only actually died at the very end. Perma Death really works if you build the mechanics of the game arround it.
The first thing Utopia had that made it really revolutionary was the concept of the Persistant character. When you log off your character stays in the game world. Your character can even be attacked and killed when you are not logged in. The surest way to die is to not login again as a lot of 'low' style pvp was based on killing the inactives. This kind of solves the problem of inactives holding onto popular names like Legolas. If the name you want is already taken you can hunt down the inactive who had the name and perma death kill them so the name gets freed up.
As an active player it was extremely hard to die because you could regen yourself faster than other players could damage you and this regen of a player that was actually logged in was massive. This was espcially true for a low level player because even a small group of high level players could not kill an active player's regen. To kill an active player it would take a raid of people to out damage active player defending themselves. Nobody really bothered the low levels because it just wasn't the worth the resourses. The thing is you have to login to regen your character. If you don't login to regen your damage then your character will get perma death killed after a few days to a few weeks depending on how long it takes other players to find out.
The way the Perma death was designed it was really only the hard core players that got perma death killed. People like guild leaders were perma death killed. Allience leaders were perma death killed. Occasionally even the number 1 player with the most power and resourses would be killed because alliances shifted. Being killed off was all about politics in Utopia. The whole end game was about murdering the top players. Players were allowed to become as powerful as raid bosses and as such they were to be raided and taken down. Players operating outside of the major alliences usually weren't killed unless they were trouble makers who didn't respect the kings, tyrants, and warlords of the server. Make too many enemies and you can die permenently.
So Permadeath isn't niche because like 5000 people donated money?
Do you know what niche means?
Ignoring the overwhelming hate on the IDEA of permadeath (not the implementation, but the idea, the word itself-- which is irrational and childish) I will simply reply to this statement, almost begging those who post on these forums to use their brains and a fraction of logic and rational thought before posting their irrational hate.
If you want to consider if something is niche, you have to look at the context of the evidence presented. Gajari (and the rest) would only be rational if the following was true: ALL gamers donate on Kickstarter. Not even that they'd have to know what kickstarter is and have an account, but they'd have to actually donate or show some form of proof in purposefully not donating but being fully aware and capable of donating to this specific website.
What is the context?
Kickstarter Gamers.
For a project to be funded to completion in less than 1 day, is certainly NOT a niche. In fact, it would have to be quite the opposite. Now remember, within ONE day this was funded over 100%, and in the end funded almost 1500% with 6 days remaining (since I last checked at OP).
Here are a list of other games, including some MMORPG projects. If permadeath were niche and 5000 people donating money to this permadeath game proves permadeath is niche, then some, if not a lot of non-permadeath projects would have greater than 5000 people donating with fully funded projects. Since this game is specifically designed as a rogue-like and that is very clear on their page, FTL is well liked BECAUSE it has permadeath. A feature which is implemented in an apparently very popular way.
These were some of the common results on kickstarter. MMORPG projects were all results when typing in "mmorpg". I have seen hundreds of MMORPG projects get less than 500 backers and go incomplete below 70% complete when time is up. Same for regular games of all sorts.
Remember...
5000 compared to 180ish is NOT niche game (unpopular).
100% completion in LESS than 1 day compared to less than 50% in months time is NOT a niche game (undesired).
1500% complete with a week left compared to 106% successful is NOT a niche idea in any regard.
In the context of Kickstarter, 5000 donating gamers is a HUGE success and quite popular. You have to remember to use that brain of yours and realize that ALL GAMERS do not donate to ALL kickstarter games they like. You have to remember that 5000 in this context actually means it would be quite popular if more people knew about it. Although the same can be said for all games, massive marketing for a failed project would be quite different than the multiplication that would result in mass marketing of an obviously popular NON-NICHE project, such as one which obtains 5000 backers.
Really, anything over 250 backers is quite popular and begins to rage in the 1000's quite rapidly. Most logical, rational, non-hate-filled people would conclude that "niche" game ideas (unpopular) would not only fail to reach even 500 backers, but you'd be hard pressed to find them successful at all. It's not like the hardcore FFA PvP Permadeath masochists make up 100% of the kickstarter donations. Normal, casual gamers most likely make up the majority, and it is actually the majority who fund these projects, not than 10 or so that fund it in large amounts.
I will not even present the evidence that FTL, a permadeath core-feature game, was the #2 most popular game (its unfinished demo) on a very popular gaming website. People did not only like this game enough to fund it-- they apparently loved it enough to play it above nearly all other games on the website.
I always find it humorous when I see permadeath threads around here, because an overwhelming amount of people in this community will hate, attack, and violently brutalize any thread, idea, or post even partially involving permadeath.
This just goes to prove that the violence against permadeath around here is as asinine as the close-minded people who...in less refined terminology... hate on permadeath.
Let the hatred die with your ignorance as those who don't immediately boycott and crucify permadeath around here be comforted in knowing that permadeath is simply an idea, which can be implemented in an infinite amount of ways in an infinite number of genres. As always, it's not the idea that is the problem: it's the people too close-minded to understand how it can be fun. Please do yourself a favor and stop thinking "Permadeath = WoW + Permadeath = Trolololol" and start thinking "Permadeath designed...omg...it CAN be fun!" And when it comes to profit and success? When you are entirely funded by donations (like Kickstarter) your profit is 100% because your costs are 0%. The people already bought your game before you made it, so any copies you actually sell is 100% profit from a $0 investment. Now if that isn't the epitome of success in profit & business, then you really need to check your dictionary.
FACE!palm
If some don't like it and you can't understand this i wonder who is more ignorance you or them.
Learn to accept others maybe think differently then you and all is ok and you dont need to make silly USELESS topics like this one.
Open your mind be free of predujice judgment thank you:)
@ Gajari I don't think OP knows what niche is hehe.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
In less than 1 day, they instantly received 200% their goal.
Now they're at almost 1500% their goal with 6 days remaining.
I always find it humorous when I see permadeath threads around here, because an overwhelming amount of people in this community will hate, attack, and violently brutalize any thread, idea, or post even partially involving permadeath.
This just goes to prove that the violence against permadeath around here is as asinine as the close-minded people who...in less refined terminology... hate on permadeath.
Let the hatred die with your ignorance as those who don't immediately boycott and crucify permadeath around here be comforted in knowing that permadeath is simply an idea, which can be implemented in an infinite amount of ways in an infinite number of genres.
As always, it's not the idea that is the problem: it's the people too close-minded to understand how it can be fun. Please do yourself a favor and stop thinking "Permadeath = WoW + Permadeath = Trolololol" and start thinking "Permadeath designed...omg...it CAN be fun!"
And when it comes to profit and success? When you are entirely funded by donations (like Kickstarter) your profit is 100% because your costs are 0%. The people already bought your game before you made it, so any copies you actually sell is 100% profit from a $0 investment. Now if that isn't the epitome of success in profit & business, then you really need to check your dictionary.
FACE!palm
If some don't like it and you can't understand this i wonder who is more ignorance you or them.
Learn to accept others maybe think differently then you and all is ok and you dont need to make silly USELESS topics like this one.
Open your mind be free of predujice judgment thank you:)
@ Gajari I don't think OP knows what niche is hehe.
I think you fail to understand many concepts. The simple fact you are agreeing with Gajari, and acting like I did not provide a robust rebuttal to his irrational and incorrect comment, makes me wonder if you are here to actually have a conversation or to just stroke your own ego.
This has nothing to do with "some don't like it" and my inability to accept it. This has everything to do with an overwhelming "it's the cool thing to do" hatred for the idea of permadeath void of its implementation. Irrational, unexplainable hatred for the word and the idea, despite it being meaningless without implementation.
You are fully allowed to think differently than others, as long as you are rational, logical, and have a clear reasoning for doing so. Being irrational, full of unexplainable hatred, and clear ignorance of the topic is certainly not something most (rational) people are okay with.
I apologize if I do not open my mind to the idea that ignorance and hatred are logical, rational, and intelligent parts of mental reasoning.
Do YOU know what niche means? 5000 donations is actually evidence to suggest that permadeath might be the OPPOSITE of niche. Why? As any intelligent person can clearly see (in my post or just by going to kickstarter.com), even 250 donations are a lot.
I know it is condescending to explain to your simple mathematics, but this permadeath core feature game, FTL, is "A LOT multiplied by 20."
I'm pretty sure niche requires something to be...niche...not extremely popular and during its unfinished demo run one of the most popular games played on a very popular AAA game website.
Since when do niche games become #2 most played game on AAA game websites?
Do YOU know what niche means? 5000 donations is actually evidence to suggest that permadeath might be the OPPOSITE of niche. Why? As any intelligent person can clearly see (in my post or just by going to kickstarter.com), even 250 donations are a lot.
5000 is not niche? That is the stupidest thing i have heard. Do YOU know what niche means?
Do you know how many gamers are out there? Even something like Eve, which is totally niche, has two order of magnitude of players more than 5000 .. and every single one a paying customers that donate way more than those on kickstart.
hundreds of thousands of players play a permadeath game and dont even notice.
EvE and Perpetuum (eve with robots) offer permadeath. You die and your spaceship or robot goes boom...end of story.
Permadeath works well when the system mechanics are tuned to it. People dont lose progress in these games when they die, they just lose some money buying or making another robot.
People dont want their progress and achievements to permanatly die typically.
Also, if you set the bar really low, you can achive hundreds or thousands of percents above what your goal was.
Also, as the OP states numerically, is a prime example of the actual definition of niche. around 5000 players playing with 250 people paying. Doesnt get more niche than that. To tie this in with my example of EvE having hundreds of thousands of players AND having a type of permadeath...people consider that game niche. Its really the only one of its type creating a niche within the industry...so again...perhaps your example isnt as mind blowing and groundbreaking as you had origionally thought.
"Niche - a DISTINCT segment of the market; having SPECIFIC appeal"
By Distinct, and Specific, it does not mean distinct in a large way. It means that the gamer playerbase who actively supports permadeath are a distinctly small and specific group in comparision to the total community. WoW alone has 12 million players - you want to compare that to your 5k? Hell, even its lesser competitors like EVE have a few million, and even F2P MMOs like DC Universe are many ways above.
5000 people amongst tens of millions of people is a VERY small, VERY distinct, VERY specific segment of the market. You are specifically focused on a single topic, your topic is extremely distinct and unmarketable, and YOUR argument that a lopsided indie donation project constitutes a majority of the market is VERY small indeed.
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
I cannot believe the level of fail this community has shown in this thread.
I will no longer be posting in this thread as so many here are completely oblivious to rational thought and show clear signs that they do not (or cannot) read or comprehend what they read.
For the last time, 5000 people donating and becoming fully funded almost instantly on kickstarter makes it one of the most popular projects on there.
For the final time, 5000 donating gamers is a significant number, as most titles get under 100 and even successful ones get under 250. This "niche" game has gathered Popular # multiplied by 20.
And to all those who still fail to comprehend basic rational thought and logic... ALL gamers do not donate to ALL game projects on kickstarter. 5000 is a huge amount, and those who have played the game, liked the game, and support the game enough to buy it when it releases (without donating) are many times higher than the amount of people donating.
It just boggles my mind that no matter how many times you try to explain to people that 5000 on kickstarter is a huge number and that the actual amount of players who loved this game far exceeds 5000. That number alone cannot count for it being #2 most played game (as an unfinished demo...) on an AAA game website.
But why listen to reason, facts, or evidence? All you have to read is "5000" and you can automatically assume it is niche right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... fail community is epic fail.
5000 donating != <5000 playing || <5000 likes
Donators != All Gamers
AAA game website != Kickstarter website
A game receiving [x] players liking the game must be considered in relation to [total players]. Basic logic: if a game has had 10,000 people playing it, and 99.99% love the game because of permadeath, it doesn't mean the game is niche just because 100,000,000 haven't yet played the game. What it does mean, is that of those who played, 99.99% loved the game which would actually hint that close to the same % of "millions" would also love the game, making it the opposite of a small niche.
You cannot simply state something caters to a small niche of gamers, unless it is marketed to a large market of gamers and the majority decline the idea or concept.
Permadeath has never even been marketed to a large audience, except with EVE, and EVE is a huge success. However, you cannot compare it to say, WoW, because even grandparents know what WoW is-- but they don't know what EVE is. Granted EVE would likely be less liked than WoW if given equal marketing (so a lower % of players played would like it or continue to play it after testing it out) but EVE doesn't have chuck norris level fame on primetime commercials either.
There are thousands of variables that should be taken into consideration, but the most obvious ones would be the % of those who have had a chance to play the game or become aware of it. Seeing as how this game was #2 on a AAA game website which advertises ON primetime commercials, it would actually be considered the exact opposite of small niche, because the amount of people who go to this AAA game website actually end up PLAYING this game and liking it enough to keep playing it whenever they visit.
Niche would be if all those who went to the website DIDNT want to play it, DIDNT like it, and DIDNT tell their friends about it. If this game can become #2 on a AAA advertised game website, then it would also become a very, very popular game if mass marketed or placed on other websites or stores such as STEAM or free browser game websites.
But who cares about reality? All you see is the number "5000" and that is enough right? right? riiiiiiiiight....
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn I cannot believe the level of fail this community has shown in this thread. I will no longer be posting in this thread as so many here are completely oblivious to rational thought and show clear signs that they do not (or cannot) read or comprehend what they read.
For the last time, 5000 people donating and becoming fully funded almost instantly on kickstarter makes it one of the most popular projects on there. For the final time, 5000 donating gamers is a significant number, as most titles get under 100 and even successful ones get under 250. This "niche" game has gathered Popular # multiplied by 20.
And to all those who still fail to comprehend basic rational thought and logic... ALL gamers do not donate to ALL game projects on kickstarter. 5000 is a huge amount, and those who have played the game, liked the game, and support the game enough to buy it when it releases (without donating) are many times higher than the amount of people donating.
It just boggles my mind that no matter how many times you try to explain to people that 5000 on kickstarter is a huge number and that the actual amount of players who loved this game far exceeds 5000. That number alone cannot count for it being #2 most played game (as an unfinished demo...) on an AAA game website. But why listen to reason, facts, or evidence? All you have to read is "5000" and you can automatically assume it is niche right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... fail community is epic fail.
5000 donating != <5000 playing || <5000 likes Donators != All Gamers AAA game website != Kickstarter website A game receiving [x] players liking the game must be considered in relation to [total players]. Basic logic: if a game has had 10,000 people playing it, and 99.99% love the game because of permadeath, it doesn't mean the game is niche just because 100,000,000 haven't yet played the game. What it does mean, is that of those who played, 99.99% loved the game which would actually hint that close to the same % of "millions" would also love the game, making it the opposite of a small niche. You cannot simply state something caters to a small niche of gamers, unless it is marketed to a large market of gamers and the majority decline the idea or concept.
Permadeath has never even been marketed to a large audience, except with EVE, and EVE is a huge success. However, you cannot compare it to say, WoW, because even grandparents know what WoW is-- but they don't know what EVE is. Granted EVE would likely be less liked than WoW if given equal marketing (so a lower % of players played would like it or continue to play it after testing it out) but EVE doesn't have chuck norris level fame on primetime commercials either.
There are thousands of variables that should be taken into consideration, but the most obvious ones would be the % of those who have had a chance to play the game or become aware of it. Seeing as how this game was #2 on a AAA game website which advertises ON primetime commercials, it would actually be considered the exact opposite of small niche, because the amount of people who go to this AAA game website actually end up PLAYING this game and liking it enough to keep playing it whenever they visit.
Niche would be if all those who went to the website DIDNT want to play it, DIDNT like it, and DIDNT tell their friends about it. If this game can become #2 on a AAA advertised game website, then it would also become a very, very popular game if mass marketed or placed on other websites or stores such as STEAM or free browser game websites. But who cares about reality? All you see is the number "5000" and that is enough right? right? riiiiiiiiight....
/end
This....shows that you have learnt nothing from this thread, that you (despite posting on an online forum) do not care about others' arguments, and that you still fail to grasp the meaning of the word you provided: "niche".
It DOES. NOT. MATTER that 5000 is the largest number for a Kickstarter project. It doesn't matter that has grown with rapid "popularity" compared to other projects on the site. "NICHE" means that it is a distinctly small and unpopular segment of the market - and PERMADEATH IS NICHE. 5000 is a pathetically miniscule number in the grand scheme of gaming, and Kickstater does not nearly represent the tininest percentile of gamers. That is why this thread is overwhelmingly against you on the matter, and that is why nobody but you seems to be starstruck over permadeath games.
It is not because of a bias against YOU personally. It is not because we all don't understand the definitions you have presented: on the contrary, you seem to be incapable of releasing the cold truth. The vast majority of gamers do not want Permadeath anywhere near their games, and no matter how much you throw your unbelievably minor statistics at us, you cannot change the fact that you and all permadeath supporters are a niche group.
Facts are facts. Please, when you next start up a thread obviously designed to brew controversy and conflict of opinions, reflect first on what exactly your argument entails, and whether it has any evidence to back it up whatsoever.
/truth
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
Okay this is really funny indeed, since niche also means a specilizined market, regardless of the size of the market. So even though many sports games, or even first person shooters are quite popular, you can call them a niche game. The reason being that they are specilized to a specific style or demographic of the playerbase, and the same is true of permadeath games. Also with how few permadeath games exist in the market not to mention even fewer well made versions, than you could easily take into account that a large segment of the playerbase of gamers that seek such a game would flock to, and even donate money to a game that promises such a thing to them. Though exactly how many non-donating players are playing this game, and then we can compare that to the estimanted number of players that play mmos, which would then actually tell if anyone is right. Even just going by the general pop of WoW rigght now, and taking a guess of the permadeath game having 10 to 20 times the players playing it compared to the 5000 donators that would only place it at 50,000 to 100,000 players that is still a niche market, as such it would take almost 100 or so times the number of donators to be playing for it to be not a niche market game.
Okay this is really funny indeed, since niche also means a specilizined market, regardless of the size of the market. So even though many sports games, or even first person shooters are quite popular, you can call them a niche game. The reason being that they are specilized to a specific style or demographic of the playerbase, and the same is true of permadeath games. Also with how few permadeath games exist in the market not to mention even fewer well made versions, than you could easily take into account that a large segment of the playerbase of gamers that seek such a game would flock to, and even donate money to a game that promises such a thing to them. Though exactly how many non-donating players are playing this game, and then we can compare that to the estimanted number of players that play mmos, which would then actually tell if anyone is right. Even just going by the general pop of WoW rigght now, and taking a guess of the permadeath game having 10 to 20 times the players playing it compared to the 5000 donators that would only place it at 50,000 to 100,000 players that is still a niche market, as such it would take almost 100 or so times the number of donators to be playing for it to be not a niche market game.
Niche doesn't mean specialized market. Where are you getting your definitions from?
The rest of the post is pure nonsense as well. You do not need a triple A, well polished title to really figure out if permadeath is niche or not. That's an easy out to avoid dealing with the fact it is niche. By using that argument one can just say.. well we will never know since there never will be a triple A title with permadeath. It really doesn't work that way. If people love a mechanic, they will seek out games that has said mechanics period. Current and past market including non MMOs like Diablo 2 has shown that it is a minority that chooses a permadeath option
What you, the OP and a few others in this thread is failing to understand is this. Niche or not is not the most important question, but if its sustainable and profitable. Clearly it is. As long as a developer is realistic with his budget vs his returns. This is partly why you have low budget permadeath MMOs
There are roughly 50 million people that play Farmville. Exactly .00001% of that gaming population would support this game. How could we think permadeath is a niche? We've all been fools, such prudent, sensible fools.
Even more people play words with friends. And checkers. So what?
Jesus, what an abstruse post.
Not that the OP is correct. FFA and even more so, perma-death, are classic niche elements in MMOs.
Niche doesn't mean specialized market. Where are you getting your definitions from?
The rest of the post is pure nonsense as well. You do not need a triple A, well polished title to really figure out if permadeath is niche or not. That's an easy out to avoid dealing with the fact it is niche. By using that argument one can just say.. well we will never know since there never will be a triple A title with permadeath. It really doesn't work that way. If people love a mechanic, they will seek out games that has said mechanics period. Current and past market including non MMOs like Diablo 2 has shown that it is a minority that chooses a permadeath option
What you, the OP and a few others in this thread is failing to understand is this. Niche or not is not the most important question, but if its sustainable and profitable. Clearly it is. As long as a developer is realistic with his budget vs his returns. This is partly why you have low budget permadeath MMOs
Wow never read a dictionary i take it, since that is actually the difinition given in many of them both online, as well as in many of the paperbacks volumes. Here so you can read one of them i will even copy it for you.
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a: a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted <finally found her niche> b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
To prove it where some are concearned you do, since most will bring up that what ever game that uses it has permadeath implimented terribly, or that the game is such a unpolished game that it only draws in the trully die-hard permadeath fans. As such getting a game that is actually AAA qaulity will allow more players to actually want to try it, and then if all that really remains is the diehard permadeath players it is a niche game feature. Yet i would love to see where you took the fact of me saying we needed a AAA title, since all i said was that we needed a well made title that implimented the concept well, so that we can compare the numbers which would lay to rest for all conceared if permadeath is or is not niche regardless of point of view. Also you said exactly what i did, by saying that players will seek out a game that suits their playstyles (even some paying out of pocket to see it created via donations.).
Niche doesn't mean specialized market. Where are you getting your definitions from?
The rest of the post is pure nonsense as well. You do not need a triple A, well polished title to really figure out if permadeath is niche or not. That's an easy out to avoid dealing with the fact it is niche. By using that argument one can just say.. well we will never know since there never will be a triple A title with permadeath. It really doesn't work that way. If people love a mechanic, they will seek out games that has said mechanics period. Current and past market including non MMOs like Diablo 2 has shown that it is a minority that chooses a permadeath option
What you, the OP and a few others in this thread is failing to understand is this. Niche or not is not the most important question, but if its sustainable and profitable. Clearly it is. As long as a developer is realistic with his budget vs his returns. This is partly why you have low budget permadeath MMOs
Wow never read a dictionary i take it, since that is actually the difinition given in many of them both online, as well as in many of the paperbacks volumes. Here so you can read one of them i will even copy it for you.
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a: a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted niche> b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
To prove it where some are concearned you do, since most will bring up that what ever game that uses it has permadeath implimented terribly, or that the game is such a unpolished game that it only draws in the trully die-hard permadeath fans. As such getting a game that is actually AAA qaulity will allow more players to actually want to try it, and then if all that really remains is the diehard permadeath players it is a niche game feature. Yet i would love to see where you took the fact of me saying we needed a AAA title, since all i said was that we needed a well made title that implimented the concept well, so that we can compare the numbers which would lay to rest for all conceared if permadeath is or is not niche regardless of point of view. Also you said exactly what i did, by saying that players will seek out a game that suits their playstyles (even some paying out of pocket to see it created via donations.).
So if I specialize in making space sims or western games, It's niche because it's a specialized market?... right
What about specializing in asian grinders. That's a specialized market.... Niche too?
And to quote you on why I comment using triple A as an example
---
"Also with how few permadeath games exist in the market not to mention even fewer well made versions, than you could easily take into account that a large segment of the playerbase of gamers that seek such a game would flock to, and even donate money to a game that promises such a thing to them"
---
The key words in your quote is "fewer well made versions"
last but not least you are completely deluting yourself If you think lack of quality is what is keeping perma death from being more popular. From that I find it hard to take anything you say remotely serious. It's like lala land all over again
Oh and niche is a subset within a specialized market which is exactly the parimeters perma death falls within
Niche doesn't mean specialized market. Where are you getting your definitions from?
The rest of the post is pure nonsense as well. You do not need a triple A, well polished title to really figure out if permadeath is niche or not. That's an easy out to avoid dealing with the fact it is niche. By using that argument one can just say.. well we will never know since there never will be a triple A title with permadeath. It really doesn't work that way. If people love a mechanic, they will seek out games that has said mechanics period. Current and past market including non MMOs like Diablo 2 has shown that it is a minority that chooses a permadeath option
What you, the OP and a few others in this thread is failing to understand is this. Niche or not is not the most important question, but if its sustainable and profitable. Clearly it is. As long as a developer is realistic with his budget vs his returns. This is partly why you have low budget permadeath MMOs
Wow never read a dictionary i take it, since that is actually the difinition given in many of them both online, as well as in many of the paperbacks volumes. Here so you can read one of them i will even copy it for you.
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a: a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted niche> b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
To prove it where some are concearned you do, since most will bring up that what ever game that uses it has permadeath implimented terribly, or that the game is such a unpolished game that it only draws in the trully die-hard permadeath fans. As such getting a game that is actually AAA qaulity will allow more players to actually want to try it, and then if all that really remains is the diehard permadeath players it is a niche game feature. Yet i would love to see where you took the fact of me saying we needed a AAA title, since all i said was that we needed a well made title that implimented the concept well, so that we can compare the numbers which would lay to rest for all conceared if permadeath is or is not niche regardless of point of view. Also you said exactly what i did, by saying that players will seek out a game that suits their playstyles (even some paying out of pocket to see it created via donations.).
So if I specialize in making space sims or western games, It's niche because it's a specialized market?... right
What about specializing in asian grinders. That's a specialized market.... Niche too?
By the definition of what niche means yea, you are creating a game, or marketing it to a small sub-set of the people in the market. If you look at the actual facts every game is a niche type of entertainment, that s creted for the explicit purpose of a person enjoying that type of entertainment. Even MMOs are a niche market of gaming at large, and video gaming mainly as each of is a further specilization of that market. Or is that to hard for you to grasp? I mean really is it too hard to understand that as you specilize the design, features, and such of a game you are shrinking the overall appeal of the game. So the notion that niche means a game that is created for a subset or smaller groups of players is true, but it is actually coming from the idea that you have created a specilized game or entertainment that appeals to a spacific type of player.
Where did i say i thought it was the fact of under polished games that use permadeath in them that makes them less popular, or having them more polished would make them more popular. I stated that if you had more well polished games that use the feature, then you could actually make an actual arguement either way. Yet since all yo have is small games that either do not have the polish to bring in more players to try the fature more freely, or are in such a bad shape with how the feature is used that it scares people that have never played with the feature away. As such if you create a game that would actually make those that like plished or well made games, or even in this fact a AAA game will try it. This allows those pllayers that never have tried permadeath to see f they like it or not, since some that say they do not like it never played using it. It's like saying you cann't like a book that you never read for yourself, but heard from a friend that it was badly writen, and a gernal outline of the story.
Niche doesn't mean specialized market. Where are you getting your definitions from?
The rest of the post is pure nonsense as well. You do not need a triple A, well polished title to really figure out if permadeath is niche or not. That's an easy out to avoid dealing with the fact it is niche. By using that argument one can just say.. well we will never know since there never will be a triple A title with permadeath. It really doesn't work that way. If people love a mechanic, they will seek out games that has said mechanics period. Current and past market including non MMOs like Diablo 2 has shown that it is a minority that chooses a permadeath option
What you, the OP and a few others in this thread is failing to understand is this. Niche or not is not the most important question, but if its sustainable and profitable. Clearly it is. As long as a developer is realistic with his budget vs his returns. This is partly why you have low budget permadeath MMOs
Wow never read a dictionary i take it, since that is actually the difinition given in many of them both online, as well as in many of the paperbacks volumes. Here so you can read one of them i will even copy it for you.
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a: a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted niche> b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
To prove it where some are concearned you do, since most will bring up that what ever game that uses it has permadeath implimented terribly, or that the game is such a unpolished game that it only draws in the trully die-hard permadeath fans. As such getting a game that is actually AAA qaulity will allow more players to actually want to try it, and then if all that really remains is the diehard permadeath players it is a niche game feature. Yet i would love to see where you took the fact of me saying we needed a AAA title, since all i said was that we needed a well made title that implimented the concept well, so that we can compare the numbers which would lay to rest for all conceared if permadeath is or is not niche regardless of point of view. Also you said exactly what i did, by saying that players will seek out a game that suits their playstyles (even some paying out of pocket to see it created via donations.).
So if I specialize in making space sims or western games, It's niche because it's a specialized market?... right
What about specializing in asian grinders. That's a specialized market.... Niche too?
By the definition of what niche means yea, you are creating a game, or marketing it to a small sub-set of the people in the market. If you look at the actual facts every game is a niche type of entertainment, that s creted for the explicit purpose of a person enjoying that type of entertainment. Even MMOs are a niche market of gaming at large, and video gaming mainly as each of is a further specilization of that market. Or is that to hard for you to grasp? I mean really is it too hard to understand that as you specilize the design, features, and such of a game you are shrinking the overall appeal of the game. So the notion that niche means a game that is created for a subset or smaller groups of players is true, but it is actually coming from the idea that you have created a specilized game or entertainment that appeals to a spacific type of player.
Niche is a subset within a specialized market.. IE permadeath. Just like carpentry is a specialized field where furniture as the focus would be the niche subset
Niche is a subset within a specialized market.. IE permadeath. Just like carpentry is a specialized field where furniture as the focus would be the niche subset
Carpentry is not niche but is specialized
Maybe you will get it this way
lol that is exactly what i said wow you are hardheaded. So what you are saying is that i was right, and you want to twist words to sound right? I remeber saying that permadeath was a niche or specilized market far before this fact. Actually by the definition of what means even carpentry is niche, but in another fashion in that it is a place/employment that is best suited to that activity. So how will you turn this about?
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a:a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted <finally found her niche>b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
Niche is a subset within a specialized market.. IE permadeath. Just like carpentry is a specialized field where furniture as the focus would be the niche subset
Carpentry is not niche but is specialized
Maybe you will get it this way
lol that is exactly what i said wow you are hardheaded. So what you are saying is that i was right, and you want to twist words to sound right? I remeber saying that permadeath was a niche or specilized market far before this fact. Actually by the definition of what means even carpentry is niche, but in another fashion in that it is a place/employment that is best suited to that activity. So how will you turn this about?
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a:a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted niche>b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
No I said a subset within a specialized market is niche.. not that a specialized market is niche. The green part is me, the red part is you. We are not saying the same thing
If we go by that then anything is niche. Carpentry, Plumming, Bricklaying basically anything. Same goes for gaming. Platform, RTS, FPS, MMO, Adventure etc. All categories are niches because they all specialize
So a subset in a specialized market is not a further specilization of a market? Exactly they are since they are specilized to appeal to a certain type of gamer, and so look to a smaller demographic of the playerbase or a subset of the playerbase. You can argue with the fact that you want to be right, but just as much the fact is that by the definition of what Niche means i am right as well. Anytime somethign focuses or specalizes to a smaller group or set of the market it is niche, since it is a smaller or more speclized focus. All activities other then the primary activity such as building are niches within the larger activity, as each time you are using more specilized techiniques to what you are doing, or in the fact of this marketing to a specific style of gaming witin the market.
Yeah it is really, we are argueing over point of view of a difinition.
For a project to be funded to completion in less than 1 day, is certainly NOT a niche. In fact, it would have to be quite the opposite. Now remember, within ONE day this was funded over 100%, and in the end funded almost 1500% with 6 days remaining (since I last checked at OP).
Er, didn't they get a plug from a gaming magazine?
Magazine gives big viral kick
The game is a working prototype
The game isn't actually the type of permadeath players hate at all, because sessions are short.
No big surprise that they did alright.
But you're crazy if you think it has relevance to people's preference of death systems in MMORPGs. A short-session-death like you see in Nethack (or even Tetris for that matter) is completely acceptable to players.
However in MMORPGs where characters live longer than a few hours, permadeath is niche. This kickstarter does nothing to prove otherwise.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn For a project to be funded to completion in less than 1 day, is certainly NOT a niche. In fact, it would have to be quite the opposite. Now remember, within ONE day this was funded over 100%, and in the end funded almost 1500% with 6 days remaining (since I last checked at OP).
Er, didn't they get a plug from a gaming magazine?
Magazine gives big viral kick
The game is a working prototype The game isn't actually the type of permadeath players hate at all, because sessions are short.
No big surprise that they did alright.
But you're crazy if you think it has relevance to people's preference of death systems in MMORPGs. A short-session-death like you see in Nethack (or even Tetris for that matter) is completely acceptable to players.
However in MMORPGs where characters live longer than a few hours, permadeath is niche. This kickstarter does nothing to prove otherwise.
/ THIIIISSSSSSSS!
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
Comments
Sorry no, the risk of losing something does indeed add a psychological layer which does indeed make even the most simplistic and most mundane taskes more "challenging" due to the psychological stress.
Having a cup final at stake adds the risk of loss. Having 80,000 people watching you adds the risk of looking like a complete tit in front of 80,000 people.
If I asked you to walk across along a plank of wood 10 meters long by 6 inches wide you would be able to pretty much run along it with zero effort. Do the same when the wood is reaching across a 500 ft vertical drop and tell me is it now as "easy"? The mechanical task is, the actual task of getting yourself across it is clearly not. No one would be watching you but you can bet your ass it would be "harder" all of a sudden.
If you thrive in risk conditions it would be a cake walk for you and my hypothesis would be incorrect in your scenario, but then not everyone thrives in risk based conditions. They find having an element of risk increases the challenge of the taks due to the fear of loss.
Risk can and does increase "challenge" through psychological factors, the mechanics remain the same, the mental challenge increases.
As someone who enjoys risk in entertainment activities as well as someone who works in a heavily risk based industry (derivatives) I am well aware that risk brings different things to different people. Often those people who actively seek risk do not see a great shift in "challenge" because they thrive in risk based conditions. But then plenty of people do indeed find risk based scenarios more challenging due to psychological reasons. Ergo whilst not everyone will be taking part in risk based activities due to an increase in perceived challenge, for many, risk can and does increase "challenge".
There is a world of difference between doing a task with zero risk involved and doing the same task when something important is on the line. Some people find it equally easy, some struggle. All down to the individuals mental approach to risk and the psychological impact it can have.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I played a Perma Death FFA PvP MUD called Utopia back in the late 90s for 3 years and only actually died at the very end. Perma Death really works if you build the mechanics of the game arround it.
The first thing Utopia had that made it really revolutionary was the concept of the Persistant character. When you log off your character stays in the game world. Your character can even be attacked and killed when you are not logged in. The surest way to die is to not login again as a lot of 'low' style pvp was based on killing the inactives. This kind of solves the problem of inactives holding onto popular names like Legolas. If the name you want is already taken you can hunt down the inactive who had the name and perma death kill them so the name gets freed up.
As an active player it was extremely hard to die because you could regen yourself faster than other players could damage you and this regen of a player that was actually logged in was massive. This was espcially true for a low level player because even a small group of high level players could not kill an active player's regen. To kill an active player it would take a raid of people to out damage active player defending themselves. Nobody really bothered the low levels because it just wasn't the worth the resourses. The thing is you have to login to regen your character. If you don't login to regen your damage then your character will get perma death killed after a few days to a few weeks depending on how long it takes other players to find out.
The way the Perma death was designed it was really only the hard core players that got perma death killed. People like guild leaders were perma death killed. Allience leaders were perma death killed. Occasionally even the number 1 player with the most power and resourses would be killed because alliances shifted. Being killed off was all about politics in Utopia. The whole end game was about murdering the top players. Players were allowed to become as powerful as raid bosses and as such they were to be raided and taken down. Players operating outside of the major alliences usually weren't killed unless they were trouble makers who didn't respect the kings, tyrants, and warlords of the server. Make too many enemies and you can die permenently.
Ignoring the overwhelming hate on the IDEA of permadeath (not the implementation, but the idea, the word itself-- which is irrational and childish) I will simply reply to this statement, almost begging those who post on these forums to use their brains and a fraction of logic and rational thought before posting their irrational hate.
If you want to consider if something is niche, you have to look at the context of the evidence presented. Gajari (and the rest) would only be rational if the following was true: ALL gamers donate on Kickstarter. Not even that they'd have to know what kickstarter is and have an account, but they'd have to actually donate or show some form of proof in purposefully not donating but being fully aware and capable of donating to this specific website.
What is the context?
Kickstarter Gamers.
For a project to be funded to completion in less than 1 day, is certainly NOT a niche. In fact, it would have to be quite the opposite. Now remember, within ONE day this was funded over 100%, and in the end funded almost 1500% with 6 days remaining (since I last checked at OP).
Here are a list of other games, including some MMORPG projects. If permadeath were niche and 5000 people donating money to this permadeath game proves permadeath is niche, then some, if not a lot of non-permadeath projects would have greater than 5000 people donating with fully funded projects. Since this game is specifically designed as a rogue-like and that is very clear on their page, FTL is well liked BECAUSE it has permadeath. A feature which is implemented in an apparently very popular way.
**Other Game Projects*
MYTHIC HERO- 250 backers, 66% complete - practically over.
OUTREACH- 49 backers, 106% complete
SPIKE- 173 backers, successful
**MMORPG PROJECTS**
ARG Zombies - 179 backers, 46% complete
Your World- 59 backers, 1% complete
Arcade County- 2 backers, 0% complete
Chaotic Ways- 2 backers, 0% complete
These were some of the common results on kickstarter. MMORPG projects were all results when typing in "mmorpg". I have seen hundreds of MMORPG projects get less than 500 backers and go incomplete below 70% complete when time is up. Same for regular games of all sorts.
Remember...
5000 compared to 180ish is NOT niche game (unpopular).
100% completion in LESS than 1 day compared to less than 50% in months time is NOT a niche game (undesired).
1500% complete with a week left compared to 106% successful is NOT a niche idea in any regard.
In the context of Kickstarter, 5000 donating gamers is a HUGE success and quite popular. You have to remember to use that brain of yours and realize that ALL GAMERS do not donate to ALL kickstarter games they like. You have to remember that 5000 in this context actually means it would be quite popular if more people knew about it. Although the same can be said for all games, massive marketing for a failed project would be quite different than the multiplication that would result in mass marketing of an obviously popular NON-NICHE project, such as one which obtains 5000 backers.
Really, anything over 250 backers is quite popular and begins to rage in the 1000's quite rapidly. Most logical, rational, non-hate-filled people would conclude that "niche" game ideas (unpopular) would not only fail to reach even 500 backers, but you'd be hard pressed to find them successful at all. It's not like the hardcore FFA PvP Permadeath masochists make up 100% of the kickstarter donations. Normal, casual gamers most likely make up the majority, and it is actually the majority who fund these projects, not than 10 or so that fund it in large amounts.
I will not even present the evidence that FTL, a permadeath core-feature game, was the #2 most popular game (its unfinished demo) on a very popular gaming website. People did not only like this game enough to fund it-- they apparently loved it enough to play it above nearly all other games on the website.
If some don't like it and you can't understand this i wonder who is more ignorance you or them.
Learn to accept others maybe think differently then you and all is ok and you dont need to make silly USELESS topics like this one.
Open your mind be free of predujice judgment thank you:)
@ Gajari I don't think OP knows what niche is hehe.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I think you fail to understand many concepts. The simple fact you are agreeing with Gajari, and acting like I did not provide a robust rebuttal to his irrational and incorrect comment, makes me wonder if you are here to actually have a conversation or to just stroke your own ego.
This has nothing to do with "some don't like it" and my inability to accept it. This has everything to do with an overwhelming "it's the cool thing to do" hatred for the idea of permadeath void of its implementation. Irrational, unexplainable hatred for the word and the idea, despite it being meaningless without implementation.
You are fully allowed to think differently than others, as long as you are rational, logical, and have a clear reasoning for doing so. Being irrational, full of unexplainable hatred, and clear ignorance of the topic is certainly not something most (rational) people are okay with.
I apologize if I do not open my mind to the idea that ignorance and hatred are logical, rational, and intelligent parts of mental reasoning.
Do YOU know what niche means? 5000 donations is actually evidence to suggest that permadeath might be the OPPOSITE of niche. Why? As any intelligent person can clearly see (in my post or just by going to kickstarter.com), even 250 donations are a lot.
I know it is condescending to explain to your simple mathematics, but this permadeath core feature game, FTL, is "A LOT multiplied by 20."
I'm pretty sure niche requires something to be...niche...not extremely popular and during its unfinished demo run one of the most popular games played on a very popular AAA game website.
Since when do niche games become #2 most played game on AAA game websites?
5000 is not niche? That is the stupidest thing i have heard. Do YOU know what niche means?
Do you know how many gamers are out there? Even something like Eve, which is totally niche, has two order of magnitude of players more than 5000 .. and every single one a paying customers that donate way more than those on kickstart.
You all are smoking crack or some derivative.
hundreds of thousands of players play a permadeath game and dont even notice.
EvE and Perpetuum (eve with robots) offer permadeath. You die and your spaceship or robot goes boom...end of story.
Permadeath works well when the system mechanics are tuned to it. People dont lose progress in these games when they die, they just lose some money buying or making another robot.
People dont want their progress and achievements to permanatly die typically.
Also, if you set the bar really low, you can achive hundreds or thousands of percents above what your goal was.
Also, as the OP states numerically, is a prime example of the actual definition of niche. around 5000 players playing with 250 people paying. Doesnt get more niche than that. To tie this in with my example of EvE having hundreds of thousands of players AND having a type of permadeath...people consider that game niche. Its really the only one of its type creating a niche within the industry...so again...perhaps your example isnt as mind blowing and groundbreaking as you had origionally thought.
Dictionary Def right here:
"Niche - a DISTINCT segment of the market; having SPECIFIC appeal"
By Distinct, and Specific, it does not mean distinct in a large way. It means that the gamer playerbase who actively supports permadeath are a distinctly small and specific group in comparision to the total community. WoW alone has 12 million players - you want to compare that to your 5k? Hell, even its lesser competitors like EVE have a few million, and even F2P MMOs like DC Universe are many ways above.
5000 people amongst tens of millions of people is a VERY small, VERY distinct, VERY specific segment of the market. You are specifically focused on a single topic, your topic is extremely distinct and unmarketable, and YOUR argument that a lopsided indie donation project constitutes a majority of the market is VERY small indeed.
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
I couldn't really focus on the topic here. That craptastic looking video ate all my attention. Have fun playing it!
I cannot believe the level of fail this community has shown in this thread.
I will no longer be posting in this thread as so many here are completely oblivious to rational thought and show clear signs that they do not (or cannot) read or comprehend what they read.
For the last time, 5000 people donating and becoming fully funded almost instantly on kickstarter makes it one of the most popular projects on there.
For the final time, 5000 donating gamers is a significant number, as most titles get under 100 and even successful ones get under 250. This "niche" game has gathered Popular # multiplied by 20.
And to all those who still fail to comprehend basic rational thought and logic... ALL gamers do not donate to ALL game projects on kickstarter. 5000 is a huge amount, and those who have played the game, liked the game, and support the game enough to buy it when it releases (without donating) are many times higher than the amount of people donating.
It just boggles my mind that no matter how many times you try to explain to people that 5000 on kickstarter is a huge number and that the actual amount of players who loved this game far exceeds 5000. That number alone cannot count for it being #2 most played game (as an unfinished demo...) on an AAA game website.
But why listen to reason, facts, or evidence? All you have to read is "5000" and you can automatically assume it is niche right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... fail community is epic fail.
5000 donating != <5000 playing || <5000 likes
Donators != All Gamers
AAA game website != Kickstarter website
A game receiving [x] players liking the game must be considered in relation to [total players]. Basic logic: if a game has had 10,000 people playing it, and 99.99% love the game because of permadeath, it doesn't mean the game is niche just because 100,000,000 haven't yet played the game. What it does mean, is that of those who played, 99.99% loved the game which would actually hint that close to the same % of "millions" would also love the game, making it the opposite of a small niche.
You cannot simply state something caters to a small niche of gamers, unless it is marketed to a large market of gamers and the majority decline the idea or concept.
Permadeath has never even been marketed to a large audience, except with EVE, and EVE is a huge success. However, you cannot compare it to say, WoW, because even grandparents know what WoW is-- but they don't know what EVE is. Granted EVE would likely be less liked than WoW if given equal marketing (so a lower % of players played would like it or continue to play it after testing it out) but EVE doesn't have chuck norris level fame on primetime commercials either.
There are thousands of variables that should be taken into consideration, but the most obvious ones would be the % of those who have had a chance to play the game or become aware of it. Seeing as how this game was #2 on a AAA game website which advertises ON primetime commercials, it would actually be considered the exact opposite of small niche, because the amount of people who go to this AAA game website actually end up PLAYING this game and liking it enough to keep playing it whenever they visit.
Niche would be if all those who went to the website DIDNT want to play it, DIDNT like it, and DIDNT tell their friends about it. If this game can become #2 on a AAA advertised game website, then it would also become a very, very popular game if mass marketed or placed on other websites or stores such as STEAM or free browser game websites.
But who cares about reality? All you see is the number "5000" and that is enough right? right? riiiiiiiiight....
/end
This....shows that you have learnt nothing from this thread, that you (despite posting on an online forum) do not care about others' arguments, and that you still fail to grasp the meaning of the word you provided: "niche".
It DOES. NOT. MATTER that 5000 is the largest number for a Kickstarter project. It doesn't matter that has grown with rapid "popularity" compared to other projects on the site. "NICHE" means that it is a distinctly small and unpopular segment of the market - and PERMADEATH IS NICHE. 5000 is a pathetically miniscule number in the grand scheme of gaming, and Kickstater does not nearly represent the tininest percentile of gamers. That is why this thread is overwhelmingly against you on the matter, and that is why nobody but you seems to be starstruck over permadeath games.
It is not because of a bias against YOU personally. It is not because we all don't understand the definitions you have presented: on the contrary, you seem to be incapable of releasing the cold truth. The vast majority of gamers do not want Permadeath anywhere near their games, and no matter how much you throw your unbelievably minor statistics at us, you cannot change the fact that you and all permadeath supporters are a niche group.
Facts are facts. Please, when you next start up a thread obviously designed to brew controversy and conflict of opinions, reflect first on what exactly your argument entails, and whether it has any evidence to back it up whatsoever.
/truth
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
Okay this is really funny indeed, since niche also means a specilizined market, regardless of the size of the market. So even though many sports games, or even first person shooters are quite popular, you can call them a niche game. The reason being that they are specilized to a specific style or demographic of the playerbase, and the same is true of permadeath games. Also with how few permadeath games exist in the market not to mention even fewer well made versions, than you could easily take into account that a large segment of the playerbase of gamers that seek such a game would flock to, and even donate money to a game that promises such a thing to them. Though exactly how many non-donating players are playing this game, and then we can compare that to the estimanted number of players that play mmos, which would then actually tell if anyone is right. Even just going by the general pop of WoW rigght now, and taking a guess of the permadeath game having 10 to 20 times the players playing it compared to the 5000 donators that would only place it at 50,000 to 100,000 players that is still a niche market, as such it would take almost 100 or so times the number of donators to be playing for it to be not a niche market game.
Niche doesn't mean specialized market. Where are you getting your definitions from?
The rest of the post is pure nonsense as well. You do not need a triple A, well polished title to really figure out if permadeath is niche or not. That's an easy out to avoid dealing with the fact it is niche. By using that argument one can just say.. well we will never know since there never will be a triple A title with permadeath. It really doesn't work that way. If people love a mechanic, they will seek out games that has said mechanics period. Current and past market including non MMOs like Diablo 2 has shown that it is a minority that chooses a permadeath option
What you, the OP and a few others in this thread is failing to understand is this. Niche or not is not the most important question, but if its sustainable and profitable. Clearly it is. As long as a developer is realistic with his budget vs his returns. This is partly why you have low budget permadeath MMOs
Even more people play words with friends. And checkers. So what?
Jesus, what an abstruse post.
Not that the OP is correct. FFA and even more so, perma-death, are classic niche elements in MMOs.
Then again, most MMO players are absolute morons.
Wow never read a dictionary i take it, since that is actually the difinition given in many of them both online, as well as in many of the paperbacks volumes. Here so you can read one of them i will even copy it for you.
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a: a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted <finally found her niche> b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
To prove it where some are concearned you do, since most will bring up that what ever game that uses it has permadeath implimented terribly, or that the game is such a unpolished game that it only draws in the trully die-hard permadeath fans. As such getting a game that is actually AAA qaulity will allow more players to actually want to try it, and then if all that really remains is the diehard permadeath players it is a niche game feature. Yet i would love to see where you took the fact of me saying we needed a AAA title, since all i said was that we needed a well made title that implimented the concept well, so that we can compare the numbers which would lay to rest for all conceared if permadeath is or is not niche regardless of point of view. Also you said exactly what i did, by saying that players will seek out a game that suits their playstyles (even some paying out of pocket to see it created via donations.).
So if I specialize in making space sims or western games, It's niche because it's a specialized market?... right
What about specializing in asian grinders. That's a specialized market.... Niche too?
And to quote you on why I comment using triple A as an example
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"Also with how few permadeath games exist in the market not to mention even fewer well made versions, than you could easily take into account that a large segment of the playerbase of gamers that seek such a game would flock to, and even donate money to a game that promises such a thing to them"
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The key words in your quote is "fewer well made versions"
last but not least you are completely deluting yourself If you think lack of quality is what is keeping perma death from being more popular. From that I find it hard to take anything you say remotely serious. It's like lala land all over again
Oh and niche is a subset within a specialized market which is exactly the parimeters perma death falls within
By the definition of what niche means yea, you are creating a game, or marketing it to a small sub-set of the people in the market. If you look at the actual facts every game is a niche type of entertainment, that s creted for the explicit purpose of a person enjoying that type of entertainment. Even MMOs are a niche market of gaming at large, and video gaming mainly as each of is a further specilization of that market. Or is that to hard for you to grasp? I mean really is it too hard to understand that as you specilize the design, features, and such of a game you are shrinking the overall appeal of the game. So the notion that niche means a game that is created for a subset or smaller groups of players is true, but it is actually coming from the idea that you have created a specilized game or entertainment that appeals to a spacific type of player.
Where did i say i thought it was the fact of under polished games that use permadeath in them that makes them less popular, or having them more polished would make them more popular. I stated that if you had more well polished games that use the feature, then you could actually make an actual arguement either way. Yet since all yo have is small games that either do not have the polish to bring in more players to try the fature more freely, or are in such a bad shape with how the feature is used that it scares people that have never played with the feature away. As such if you create a game that would actually make those that like plished or well made games, or even in this fact a AAA game will try it. This allows those pllayers that never have tried permadeath to see f they like it or not, since some that say they do not like it never played using it. It's like saying you cann't like a book that you never read for yourself, but heard from a friend that it was badly writen, and a gernal outline of the story.
Niche is a subset within a specialized market.. IE permadeath. Just like carpentry is a specialized field where furniture as the focus would be the niche subset
Carpentry is not niche but is specialized
Maybe you will get it this way
lol that is exactly what i said wow you are hardheaded. So what you are saying is that i was right, and you want to twist words to sound right? I remeber saying that permadeath was a niche or specilized market far before this fact. Actually by the definition of what means even carpentry is niche, but in another fashion in that it is a place/employment that is best suited to that activity. So how will you turn this about?
Definition of NICHE
1
a: a recess in a wall especially for a statue b: something (as a sheltered or private space) that resembles a recess in a wall
2
a: a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted <finally found her niche> b: a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c: the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d: a specialized market
Nevermind, pointless discussion
So a subset in a specialized market is not a further specilization of a market? Exactly they are since they are specilized to appeal to a certain type of gamer, and so look to a smaller demographic of the playerbase or a subset of the playerbase. You can argue with the fact that you want to be right, but just as much the fact is that by the definition of what Niche means i am right as well. Anytime somethign focuses or specalizes to a smaller group or set of the market it is niche, since it is a smaller or more speclized focus. All activities other then the primary activity such as building are niches within the larger activity, as each time you are using more specilized techiniques to what you are doing, or in the fact of this marketing to a specific style of gaming witin the market.
Yeah it is really, we are argueing over point of view of a difinition.
Er, didn't they get a plug from a gaming magazine?
Magazine gives big viral kick
The game is a working prototype
The game isn't actually the type of permadeath players hate at all, because sessions are short.
No big surprise that they did alright.
But you're crazy if you think it has relevance to people's preference of death systems in MMORPGs. A short-session-death like you see in Nethack (or even Tetris for that matter) is completely acceptable to players.
However in MMORPGs where characters live longer than a few hours, permadeath is niche. This kickstarter does nothing to prove otherwise.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No big surprise that they did alright.
But you're crazy if you think it has relevance to people's preference of death systems in MMORPGs. A short-session-death like you see in Nethack (or even Tetris for that matter) is completely acceptable to players.
However in MMORPGs where characters live longer than a few hours, permadeath is niche. This kickstarter does nothing to prove otherwise.
/
THIIIISSSSSSSS!
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
The new sci-fi MMO Origins of Malu, powered by BigWorld Indie, features perma-death. http://bgwld.co/HOJWWt