Will we ever see another hard mmo like Vanguard ?

delete5230 · April 2012

I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

Badem · April 2012

Vanguard had something going for it (shame SoE did not plough more assets into it IMHO)

I loved that I could level Adventure, Crafting and Diplo to 50 . Dress each class in its own 'Class enhancing' outfits, then switch between which 3 people could see as I travelled the land.

Vanguard had clearly delineated hubs that flowed easily across the land, Boats to go out searching on the seas, Houses to build and decorate.

I loved playing the game, Badem and Mairae where my mains , Raiding was fun, as was just messing around with friends across the lands.

I hope to see another game like this, had hoped it would be SWTOR , but that feels a bit too easy mode atm and very solo centric

Fadedbomb · April 2012

I don't mean to insult you at all, however I played Vanguard from Beta, Launch, and 3months into launch. Vanguard wasn't hard, but it LAGGED something fierce.

Everquest, and the first 3 yrs of DAOC were "Hard". I've yet to find a game that recaptures Everquest for me though which means i've gone back several times over the years.

I cannot wait to see if Everquest III is another steaming pile of crap like Everquest II was (i've gone back to that a couple times over the years, too :x) or if they'll actually go back to what made Everquest great, challenge!

Also, if any EQIII devs are hunting around for stuff on here I'd like to tell you that if you go a "WoW" route or a "WoW artStyle" route we'll burn you to the god damned ground. I gaurantee it!

brokennoze · April 2012

If you're looking for Hard MMO's your only real options are EVE, Perpetum and possibly FallenEarth. Darkfall might also be considered, which i understand is having a facelift as we speak.

But you seem to be talking hard as in difficulty level. Well, it might not be a proper MMO but if you're after a "Difficult" multiplayer game, Dark Souls has got to be up there.

but pure MMO?? If EVE is "not your style" then it sounds as if your looking for a difficult MMO for the masses? well lets be honest, MMO's are easy simple BECAUSE they are for the masses. If you need a degree in ecnonomics or had 1000's of retrys to succeed at something you'd alienate the audiences that pay for games like WoW in the first place. Its all about the numbers and a developer is still out to make a game are still out there to make as many bucks as they can from as many subscribers as they can.

As for free to play with microtransations, well If the only way a company sees fit to make money from the colour of the cape your character wears, are they REALLY trying to attract the kind of thinking player that ultimately doesn't give a toss about something as pointless? Its really not a good time to be an intelligent gamer.. especially if you don't like EVE!

UsulDaNeriak · April 2012

while still playing EQ1 these times, i did check out Vanguard, WoW and EQ2 directly at launch. let me tell you, that none of these 3 games was ever hard or difficult. the main reason i quit them all after a few months was, that even my dog and my little sister could play them. of course things became even worse later on with theme-parks. but "hard" seems to be very relative.

Recker · April 2012

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

Your asking for a hard MMO but you dismiss EVE

Dude EVE is the KING QUEEN AND POPE of hard mmo. It takes time dedication and a huge risk to your sanity because if you plan on doing any kind of non carebear(eve term for striclty pve content player) activity then you risk everything that you have on you.

I would be more than glad to walk you through the never ending amount of fighting ganking pve factionVSfaction crafting mining trading etc...

Dude you have no clue on what you missing.

chrisleko · April 2012

Of the more modern MMOs, Vanguard is probably the hardest (with an actual death penalty!). It is getting more development time (there were 2 patches just last week, and one a week for the past few). BUT, it is going f2p (maybe t his summer), so I know that puts a lot of people off, though I think it wil bring in some new blood.

The game still requires a group to get a lot of the "fun" stuff, though one can solo 1-51 if one wanted.

darkhalf357x · April 2012

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

I would love to see one, but highly doubt it. Funny how I left console to play the more 'sophisticated' MMOs only to find the same trend that made me leave consoles to begin with.

Gaming in general has (finally) gone mainstream which means playing to the largest generic base as possible to sell the most units. To me, this equates to 'casual' gameplay to get people who normally were adverse to video games to try it. I also think the younger generations (Im a 70s baby) are overly sensitive and couldnt take a hard difficulty level because they would have to work for it. This generation seems to be of the instant gratification where they want to see as much as possible as fast as possible.

If I gave them a copy of Mega man 1 for NES they would probably deem it unplayable. Defeat 8 bosses with 3 lives no continues. Then fight a 3-mode final boss. Yeah it was daym hard. But it was daym fun too. And nothing can take away the achievement of skill completing that game. Today you get gamer points for typing your name.

Hope a developer goes out on a limb for a niche title bringing us back to old.. but leveraging all the technical advances we have today.

xDayx · April 2012

Originally posted by Recker

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

Your asking for a hard MMO but you dismiss EVE

Dude EVE is the KING QUEEN AND POPE of hard mmo. It takes time dedication and a huge risk to your sanity because if you plan on doing any kind of non carebear(eve term for striclty pve content player) activity then you risk everything that you have on you.

I would be more than glad to walk you through the never ending amount of fighting ganking pve factionVSfaction crafting mining trading etc...

Dude you have no clue on what you missing.

I agree with the above. But, I think you are dismissing alot of sandboxes, not just EVE.

Recker · April 2012

Originally posted by xDayx

Originally posted by Recker

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

Your asking for a hard MMO but you dismiss EVE

Dude EVE is the KING QUEEN AND POPE of hard mmo. It takes time dedication and a huge risk to your sanity because if you plan on doing any kind of non carebear(eve term for striclty pve content player) activity then you risk everything that you have on you.

I would be more than glad to walk you through the never ending amount of fighting ganking pve factionVSfaction crafting mining trading etc...

Dude you have no clue on what you missing.

I agree with the above. But, I think you are dismissing alot of sandboxes, not just EVE.

Not really but he mentioned eve and was so dismissive of it and hes asking for a hard game. Its an oxymoron

Elikal · April 2012

In smaller scope as indie game, yes. But as approach for big Triple A MMO, no. I will be frank - I hated the harsh penalities like corpse run asf. back then. That just wasn't my cup of tea. I recall how often I was pissed when the group wiped at the BOTTOM of some frigging dungeon and we had to fight all the way back. No thanks.

I liked the idea of a vast open world where you could go everywhere you wanted. But by and large Vanguard was a dinosaur. I am sure there is a small niche audience for that, but nothing to justify the expenses of a big title. But that's just my guess.

Hrotha · April 2012

Guild Wars 2 PvE will be rock hard.

anemo · April 2012

Salem could be a good bet but will probably have lots of turn offs for you.

Essentially you're probably going to just see permadeath and PvP possibilities. And not realize they're there to get you to actually work with each other, socialize, and mutually work against threats. Favoring healers you'll probably love the later, as for the first part maybe not.

On the bright side looking at their test bed haven and hearth, PvP really isn't that common. Essentially to take out someone's character you'll need to also use an invested in character, and the criminal system allows one to track down and kill worst case PvPers(even if not logged in by summoning with scents). So PvP isn't just some mindless teenage gankfest, but forces players to choose a good reason to risk themselves.

CalmOceans · April 2012

Bah, none of those MMO were hard.

In EQ you set your alarm clock in the middle of the night just to raid an open raid mob even if you didn't need the keys just so the other guild wouldn't be able to progress the next day. People kept doing this night after night, until the other guild gave up or they started playing in the middle of the night too.

Larsa · April 2012

Originally posted by Recker

Originally posted by xDayx

Originally posted by Recker

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

Your asking for a hard MMO but you dismiss EVE

Dude EVE is the KING QUEEN AND POPE of hard mmo. It takes time dedication and a huge risk to your sanity because if you plan on doing any kind of non carebear(eve term for striclty pve content player) activity then you risk everything that you have on you.

I would be more than glad to walk you through the never ending amount of fighting ganking pve factionVSfaction crafting mining trading etc...

Dude you have no clue on what you missing.

I agree with the above. But, I think you are dismissing alot of sandboxes, not just EVE.

Not really but he mentioned eve and was so dismissive of it and hes asking for a hard game. Its an oxymoron

Doh, come on guys, the original poster said just one sentence about EvE and that sentence was: "I guess is good, but not my style."

And you guys make up that the OP is a dude, dismissive and has no clue out of that one sentence. Get over it, not everybody enjoys the same playstyle.

FrostWyrm · April 2012

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

Originally posted by delete5230

If I gave them a copy of Mega man 1 for NES they would probably deem it unplayable. Defeat 8 bosses with 3 lives no continues. Then fight a 3-mode final boss. Yeah it was daym hard. But it was daym fun too. And nothing can take away the achievement of skill completing that game. Today you get gamer points for typing your name.

I laughed at this because it's so very true. You also left out the "Why do I have to fight all the bosses again?!" reaction you would get just before the ragequit...if they made it that far. Not to mention "Bottomless pits kill you instead of making you lose a little health and teleporting you back to the edge?! THIS IS BS!!"

I'd love to hear grown "men" and "women" complainig that this game is impossible, despite the fact that this is a game I mastered when I was 8 years old.

RebelScum99 · April 2012

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Guild Wars 2 PvE will be rock hard.

No, it really won't.

fenistil · April 2012

ArcheAge

Though it will have alot of casual features as well.

So it propably will be half of what you looking for.

Larsa · April 2012

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. ...

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

I feel for you, like another poster already said: try Heaven & Hearth, yeah it's an indie game and there can be lag and all. But then, it's completely free to play with no cash-shop. Or lookout for Salem from the same developers.

An off chance would be to go look at Ryzom (unlimited free trial) though you have to sub once you need storage space after a few weeks, only subbed players can buy pack animals. No cash shop here too.

Generally speaking, I believe no AAA game will bring you the difficulty and complexity you're looking for. Just another target audience. Stick to indie games and accept that they won't have the polish of a AAA release.

Nilenya · April 2012

I played Everquest since 1999. I loved EQ, I was in a raiding guild called Raging Fury, and played hardcore till around 2003, when I left to Beta something else. Around the end of PoP, just a few months after Ldon.

I also played EVE on and off since 2007.

I dont like EVE as much. Its not that I dont appreciate the risk involved - I do like that part. I have just not felt the same connection with EVE, as I had with EQ1. I would probably dismiss EVE as a game among my favorites, where EQ reins supreme.

It is possible to love "hard" mmo's - being a veteran EQ1 player, and not LOVE EVE.

Its just a matter of how EVE uses a different avatar than most mmo's and lets be honest, Captains quarters doesnt exactly make up for the fact that most of the time you're supposed to picture yourself in a pod inside your ship. That just doesnt hit the same nerve for me and many other gamers.

So while OP is funny, when he calls Vanguard hard like people who call Vanilla wow hard (lol) - its not invalid of him to dismiss EVE.. People will not connect with what EVE offters because its Sci fi sandbox, where your avatar is mostly a ship. Thats enough to alienate people from it. And thats all it is.

EQ had as much risk involved as EVE did in a way. I have certainly been caught in a deathloop once or twice. And anyone who knows what that is like, who didnt have a pocket cleric around will know it hurt a lot more than flying what you can afford and losing it to a gate camp or a random pirate.

StarI · April 2012

Originally posted by delete5230
I hate 90% of all mmo's. Some I played around with for more than 30 days....But the bottom line is that I really liked three mmo's.

Vanilla WoW - for me it was hard because I had no one to ask questions. No one at work, no one in my social life. I had to figure out everything myself. I had to ask in chat where to go after level 10, I had figure out trainers for abilities and how to equip them. It was very hard because I had to stick with other players to learn. Players were teaching me stuff well into the 40's. Infact I was in my mid 20's when I found out about group dungeons. I got a /tell out of the blue to do ShadowFang Keep, then bammm I was in a group of 5 running to the entrance....They were the fun days.

D&D Online - Before F2P, I made a healer and found I was good at it. Groups loved me as I was passionate about it. I knew everyone on my server.

Vanguard - Was hard, but to survive you had to make friends...IT has a community because of it.

EvE - I guess is good, but not my style.

EQ2 - I guess it could be hard, but the game is a mess, it always has been, with its nasty coding, below adv. graphics and pasted together maps.

Something tells me GW2 will be easy mode too. It looks fun and all with it's WvWvW PvP, but it also has a Rift look and feel to it. Rift was a 30 day excitement for me.

Will we ever see an extremely hard mmo ever again, where you really really need a community ?...No Dungeon finder or dynamic events to do a quickie and leave without saying a word, and think that you grouped.

I need a down and dirty, nasty hard mmo !.... I need an mmo where I need a community to survive !.....Will we ever see what I'm looking for again ?

Just take low level naked toons into a high level dungeon. Make all communication through /say and voila, hardcore difficulty right there. I mean it's easier than convincing a new company to make a brand new game just for you.

You might also want to aknowledge people have very different views on what hard is. Like I never ever thought of vanilla WoW leveling as something hard. Neither do I think Vanguard is.

Quirhid · April 2012

Vanguard a "hard MMO"?

No. What you want is not "hard" but has strong class interdependency - e.g. strict holy trinity.

delete5230 · April 2012

I guess you could say, I would like hard to bring back a community....Working together, A game where if you piss someone off you should apologize and make it up to them.

An mmo where you can solo if needed or if you just not in the mood to group, but the good stuff is with others, and everyone knows it, so everyone works togeather............That kind of hard !

And " yes " EVE is not my style of mmo....Is that such a big deal ?

CalmOceans · April 2012

Originally posted by delete5230
I guess you could say, I would like hard to bring back a community....Working together, A game where if you piss someone off you should apologize and make it up to them.

An mmo where you can solo if needed or if you just not in the mood to group, but the good stuff is with others, and everyone knows it, so everyone works togeather............That kind of hard !

I think many want this. EQ used to have this but players started boxing, less people found groups and more started boxing, until everyone is basically running multiple accounts. Now people say they miss when everyone grouped, well, maybe they should have thought about that before they all started playing on their own.

nariusseldon · April 2012

Why should we?

The question is not whether it is hard. The question is whether it is FUN.

Kilrain · April 2012

You guys are wrong, he said he guessed it was hard just not his style. that tells me that he tried it but didn't really get to experience it because it wasn't his cup o tea. If I were to take everything into account that he said, he's looking for a fantasy MMO, not SciFi.

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Will we ever see another hard mmo like Vanguard ?

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