No I don't think the gems will be PtW. Since the market price is controlled by Anet, with an attached gold sink to the purchase/sale of gems in the exchange bank, (gems are not available for sale player to player, arenanet acts as a broker between players in a sequestered bank system just for this exchange.) the economy should remain healthy (Bridger discusses this feature in this episode (http://www.talesoftyria.com/)), and since PvP has very few items that require gold alone to purchase...most require two forms of currency...either glory, supply, or gold. So yeah I'll let you have all the blueprints you need for gold. If you can't get the Supply to build them and repair them...oooo a few hundred points of damage once or twice and they're destroyed. So Sorry for you.
At least in WvW, anyone seen how much siege weapons do? They keep you from the instakill zone around the gates that take like 10 minutes literally of you and a group spamming normal attacks. They did more damage I do by far and if it's not the ram, you can just lob your attacks from safety. Also, the link shows you can buy influence but it doesn't show the more damaging stuff you can do with influence, which is the WvW guild buffs bought with influence. Lastly for WvW, the commander position helps herd all of the people, especially when you can place markers and you get your own channel and the icon over your head. You have to pay lots of gold for that?
Should really add that some of the cash shop items still bug me too. Ex: they buffed the magic find boost item to 50% increased rare drop rate, the perfect salvage kit is better than all of the kits you can buy in the game, and they added repairing annoyance to the game but hey, you can just insta buy and use the instant repair canister anywhere except dungeons! Oh yeah, and you get 5 bag slots by default but if you can only get 2 more bag slots by buying them in the cash shop.
Pics of buy to win and BS cash shop items in link:
Originally posted by Palladin Originally posted by Betakodo At least in WvW, anyone seen how much siege weapons do? They keep you from the instakill zone around the gates that take like 10 minutes literally of you and a group spamming normal attacks. They did more damage I do by far and if it's not the ram, you can just lob your attacks from safety. Also, the link shows you can buy influence but it doesn't show the more damaging stuff you can do with influence, which is the WvW guild buffs bought with influence. Lastly for WvW, the commander position helps herd all of the people, especially when you can place markers and you get your own channel and the icon over your head. You have to pay lots of gold for that? Should really add that some of the cash shop items still bug me too. Ex: they buffed the magic find boost item to 50% increased rare drop rate, the perfect salvage kit is better than all of the kits you can buy in the game, and they added repairing annoyance to the game but hey, you can just insta buy and use the instant repair canister anywhere except dungeons! Oh yeah, and you get 5 bag slots by default but if you can only get 2 more bag slots by buying them in the cash shop. Pics of buy to win and BS cash shop items in link: http://my.mmosite.com/1cd10251c16a43d090e2399862b464a2/blog/ritem/ad5e6ed86cc8937c54ab9b9a77ee7e48.html
Complete and utter BULL &^%$
Yeah, using mmosite to back up your claims is a very desperate move.
i just wanna say stop being a cheapskate and spend some shit. I'm sick of kids crying for little things in such an amazing mmo that is buy to play only.
Well said. I'm tired of it too. $15 subscription fine. $15 gems OMG its the devil and unfair!
It would be like complaining that a limited free trial version of a game is unfair to the subscription payers who access to more dungeons and equipment. Isnt that p2w?
Bansisco and guy below me, what about the gold to buy guild influence? What about the gold to get good equipment? Why can I only have 5 bag slots until I pay a company that I paid $60 to get 7 bag slots? And you didn't address the perfect salvage kits. What about the SIEGE weapons? They do like a thousand times more damage than I do in a single hit. Literally. Combine that with the range they fire from, you're safe from the fort defenders because you're outside of their range.
Your uneducated about the game and how it works. That's why your posting this nonsense here. BOTTOM LINE. You'll play the game or you wont based on your perception of the reality of the situation.
I will be buying gems for my group, then that group will be randomly putting holes into keeps across the three maps.
Daoc ninja keep takes ..... are back.
I'll be the one buying your gems and using the siege equipment your group puts down.
people still think you buy gems off each other....?
Yes. Because you can buy someone's gems for gold in game.
No, you can't actually. That's not how it works.
Yeah, I know how it works. I bought 150 gems at the end to check out the system in place and I bought a key with it.
My point is that if he were on my server, I think it would be great that he bought gems an sold them for gold while I buy gems with my gold and use his sieges.
Doesn't seem very fair for him honestly.
I really like the idea of being able to buy cash shop currency with in game currency. However, from everything people have been saying, I don't see how this is going to work out in GW2 in practice. People have been saying that one of the reasons it can't be considered pay to win is because in-game gold doesn't get you much if any advantage for those interested in selling gems for gold. This is a double-edged sword for those interested in buying gems for gold though. If there's not much if afny advantage to having large sums of gold, where is the incentive to even buy gems to sell for gold? If it isn't worthwhile enough, then people will be less inclinded to buy gems to sell for gold and then the price of gems will inflate and it will cost more gold to buy the gems. On the other hand if they make gold give an advantage in game then you are entering pay 2 win territory and people will need the gold themselves and have less to spend on gems, which will deflate the value of gems. As it stands right now from the people posting on the forums it doesn't seem like gold does enough that would warrant someone buying gems to sell them for gold.
Jeez how hard is to understand that you can buy Gems for ingame Gold...
Yes and the other way around... The question is if that makes it pay to win or not.
It is actually rather complicated since there are way to exchange gold for the currency you use to buy buffs for the guild in wvwvw PvP. The unknown factor is if a normal guild can earn those buffs anyways or if they have to buy gems and trade for gold get them.
I still don´t have an answer, I don´t think it will be Pay2win but it might. We have to wait until after launch to truly know it.
The Shop is there for a reason. To separate you from your money. So you can buy things easier than you can acquire them through gaming activity. You can spin it about buy to win or not. I think Anet did a bang up job keeping the Shop from being blatant about it like so many other games these days. I do think gaming investors will be watchng the GW2 model closely. If it goes over well, not only expect the subscription model to fade away into oblivion, but expect single player games to have shops.
Try to add a poll in the next thread of the same kind (which will come sooner or later...), at least we can get an overview this way. And try to word the poll neutrally (yes/no/no opinion).
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It's like we've somehow made entertainment products into the "new work."
MMO's have become 'work', not entertainment. Your boss is the Guild Leader, your income is the in game rewards, the actual work is the grind to get the neccessary items to provide the necessary services to your boss, so they can have their enjoyment of running their little fiefdom.
I know that there are many casual guilds with few rules and stress fun over everything, but the top tier guilds are businesses, managed very well, with proper beauracracies, to handle everyday and extreme levels of business efficiently.
When a game is built to change this dynamic, allowing fun to be more important than work, whatever MMO does this will win majorly. As the developers forget about fun and cater to the in game managers, MMO's will always be tedious for those that want to play at the highest level of a game's systems.
To bring this back on topic, the introduction of 'PtW' features is most loudly being argued against by those that feel it's better to work in a game, rather than play. I think it's ironic when a player with money can pay $2-5 for something that someone spends hours of their time to get, thus showing what the real world/devs/publishers thinks the grinders time is worth. Think about it, if you could spend your time making $7.50/hour working in a RL job, and someone pays $2 for something that took you an hour to get, they are equating your work time to $2/hour. Makes you feel good doesn't it? Now IF the game was fun and you felt like you were getting $7.50/hour of fun out of it, then someone paying that $2/hour is OBVIOUSLY only cheating themselves. So...which game do you want to play? What reason do you want to play for? That's how a game developer should think about the cash shop.
I don't care for inflammatory catchphrases like pay-to-win any more than I do for "troll" or "fanboi". (besides, "win" what, exactly?)
But I'll say this: I dislike it, because ultimately it does give people an advantage. I'm still of the old school of thought that you should not be able to turn real life economic power into any sort of power in the game.
I'm even against being able to buy cosmetic stuff (because lord knows I've put in many hours in earning purely cosmetic stuff in MMOS), but I guess that's a completely and utterly lost case now.
As a side note, everyone realizes that the gold to gem exchange rate is limited by the devs right? In other words, even if two players agreed that 1 gem = 1 million gold, if that exchange rate is outside the fixed limits, the sale will not occur, or it will occur but the exchange bank will soak up the difference in the exchange rate.
Gem to gold sales is not a function of the open auction house, it's done in a sequestered exchange bank set up for just that purpose.
Just from playing I had enough money to purchase 5 of those catapults on my own, and I'm one person among a horde in WvWvW. You can keep trying to argue otherwise, but the gem shop has 0 to do with PvP. Those things were also a complete waste of money, I didn't see anyone die to them, they were too slow and easy to dodge, and have to be manually aimed and loaded. The rams on the other hand, are extremely useful, but they're also easy to afford.
The majority of people will be turning ingame gold INTO gems, not the other way around. I'd be willing to bet the majority of gem-sellers will be crafters trying to fund their mastery of the various crafts, which ~can~ get expensive as you get into the rarer items and higher level Runes for bags.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I don't care for inflammatory catchphrases like pay-to-win any more than I do for "troll" or "fanboi". (besides, "win" what, exactly?)
But I'll say this: I dislike it, because ultimately it does give people an advantage. I'm still of the old school of thought that you should not be able to turn real life economic power into any sort of power in the game.
I'm even against being able to buy cosmetic stuff (because lord knows I've put in many hours in earning purely cosmetic stuff in MMOS), but I guess that's a completely and utterly lost case now.
I was but I've pretty much waved the white flag anymore on the subject. Besides seems in this game it won't be a huge deal. Seems anyways.
As for your first part I can't stand those either. Not only are they completely cliche anymore but most posters don't even know what the hell they mean anymore and use them to basically label anything they don't like, anyone disagreeing with them, or to purposely get a rise out of people.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
As a side note, everyone realizes that the gold to gem exchange rate is limited by the devs right? In other words, even if two players agreed that 1 gem = 1 million gold, if that exchange rate is outside the fixed limits, the sale will not occur, or it will occur but the exchange bank will soak up the difference in the exchange rate.
Gem to gold sales is not a function of the open auction house, it's done in a sequestered exchange bank set up for just that purpose.
It isn't limited by the devs. It also isn't sequestered.
We also like the tradability of gems and gold because it makes the rest of the game’s economy more compelling. We’ll have a player-to-player Trading Post in the game—it’s like an auction house but better—which we’ll discuss in an upcoming blog post. Because gems can be traded for gold and vice versa, we don’t need two different trading systems, one for gold and one for gems. In Guild Wars 2, everything on the Trading Post is traded for gold, but of course, somebody who wants to earn gems can just sell items for gold, and then convert the gold to gems.
We have always taken our responsibility to players seriously with the original Guild Wars, and we will continue to do so with Guild Wars 2. We believe the foundation I’ve described here is the right foundation for us to build upon, and we look forward to sharing more details with you in the future as we nail down our microtransaction content.
-Mike O’Brien
John Smith posts is this thread why they can't do what you suggest they are doing.
There are consequences to artificially modifying the price of an item lacking a market failure.
If I were to make the price artificially lower to help reach the lower end, there would be a gap between supply and demand. Since we can’t change the supply, we suffer a shortage of supply, which causes further problems, including preventing those who do have a “willingness to pay” more from being able to complete a purchase.
This is glib, but I think the message that’s important is that when you are playing with markets, you can’t just do things, there are interdependent parts and if you mess with one, you mess with lots of other stuff too.
I still don't think it's Pay to Win, but I don't think we should just be so accepting of it that we just ignore the problem it's causing.
Also remember that those items do not work in WvW or structured PvP. They are PvE only items.
Of course this could still bother you.
That's true and it certainly makes them a bit more reasonable, but it's still an advantage nontheless.
lool.a bit more reasonable? tell me how an item that can only use in PvE is an advantage? advantage over mobs? great, is good to all players on PvE.loool
seriously people dont even know the game, i mean no one, even people that play BW like me. we are all new to game, no one know how high lvl zones works and how easy is to get gold on high lvl, but in this forum seem people are all expert and pro games in GW2 already.
As a side note, everyone realizes that the gold to gem exchange rate is limited by the devs right? In other words, even if two players agreed that 1 gem = 1 million gold, if that exchange rate is outside the fixed limits, the sale will not occur, or it will occur but the exchange bank will soak up the difference in the exchange rate.
Gem to gold sales is not a function of the open auction house, it's done in a sequestered exchange bank set up for just that purpose.
It isn't limited by the devs. It also isn't sequestered.
We also like the tradability of gems and gold because it makes the rest of the game’s economy more compelling. We’ll have a player-to-player Trading Post in the game—it’s like an auction house but better—which we’ll discuss in an upcoming blog post. Because gems can be traded for gold and vice versa, we don’t need two different trading systems, one for gold and one for gems. In Guild Wars 2, everything on the Trading Post is traded for gold, but of course, somebody who wants to earn gems can just sell items for gold, and then convert the gold to gems.
We have always taken our responsibility to players seriously with the original Guild Wars, and we will continue to do so with Guild Wars 2. We believe the foundation I’ve described here is the right foundation for us to build upon, and we look forward to sharing more details with you in the future as we nail down our microtransaction content.
-Mike O’Brien
John Smith posts is this thread why they can't do what you suggest they are doing.
There are consequences to artificially modifying the price of an item lacking a market failure.
If I were to make the price artificially lower to help reach the lower end, there would be a gap between supply and demand. Since we can’t change the supply, we suffer a shortage of supply, which causes further problems, including preventing those who do have a “willingness to pay” more from being able to complete a purchase.
This is glib, but I think the message that’s important is that when you are playing with markets, you can’t just do things, there are interdependent parts and if you mess with one, you mess with lots of other stuff too.
Comments
Complete and utter BULL &^%$
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Yeah, using mmosite to back up your claims is a very desperate move.
So do threads like this.
So do whiners like... Well you know the rest.
Of course its play to win. I have a 5 backpack spec that completely owns!
Well said. I'm tired of it too. $15 subscription fine. $15 gems OMG its the devil and unfair!
It would be like complaining that a limited free trial version of a game is unfair to the subscription payers who access to more dungeons and equipment. Isnt that p2w?
Your uneducated about the game and how it works. That's why your posting this nonsense here. BOTTOM LINE. You'll play the game or you wont based on your perception of the reality of the situation.
I personally hope you choice not to.
Jeez how hard is to understand that you can buy Gems for ingame Gold...
You should do that, buy them all up, spend all your gold on gems, then come back and tell us how OP you are...LOL!!
I really like the idea of being able to buy cash shop currency with in game currency. However, from everything people have been saying, I don't see how this is going to work out in GW2 in practice. People have been saying that one of the reasons it can't be considered pay to win is because in-game gold doesn't get you much if any advantage for those interested in selling gems for gold. This is a double-edged sword for those interested in buying gems for gold though. If there's not much if afny advantage to having large sums of gold, where is the incentive to even buy gems to sell for gold? If it isn't worthwhile enough, then people will be less inclinded to buy gems to sell for gold and then the price of gems will inflate and it will cost more gold to buy the gems. On the other hand if they make gold give an advantage in game then you are entering pay 2 win territory and people will need the gold themselves and have less to spend on gems, which will deflate the value of gems. As it stands right now from the people posting on the forums it doesn't seem like gold does enough that would warrant someone buying gems to sell them for gold.
Yes and the other way around... The question is if that makes it pay to win or not.
It is actually rather complicated since there are way to exchange gold for the currency you use to buy buffs for the guild in wvwvw PvP. The unknown factor is if a normal guild can earn those buffs anyways or if they have to buy gems and trade for gold get them.
I still don´t have an answer, I don´t think it will be Pay2win but it might. We have to wait until after launch to truly know it.
The Shop is there for a reason. To separate you from your money. So you can buy things easier than you can acquire them through gaming activity. You can spin it about buy to win or not. I think Anet did a bang up job keeping the Shop from being blatant about it like so many other games these days. I do think gaming investors will be watchng the GW2 model closely. If it goes over well, not only expect the subscription model to fade away into oblivion, but expect single player games to have shops.
Try to add a poll in the next thread of the same kind (which will come sooner or later...), at least we can get an overview this way. And try to word the poll neutrally (yes/no/no opinion).
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
MMO's have become 'work', not entertainment. Your boss is the Guild Leader, your income is the in game rewards, the actual work is the grind to get the neccessary items to provide the necessary services to your boss, so they can have their enjoyment of running their little fiefdom.
I know that there are many casual guilds with few rules and stress fun over everything, but the top tier guilds are businesses, managed very well, with proper beauracracies, to handle everyday and extreme levels of business efficiently.
When a game is built to change this dynamic, allowing fun to be more important than work, whatever MMO does this will win majorly. As the developers forget about fun and cater to the in game managers, MMO's will always be tedious for those that want to play at the highest level of a game's systems.
To bring this back on topic, the introduction of 'PtW' features is most loudly being argued against by those that feel it's better to work in a game, rather than play. I think it's ironic when a player with money can pay $2-5 for something that someone spends hours of their time to get, thus showing what the real world/devs/publishers thinks the grinders time is worth. Think about it, if you could spend your time making $7.50/hour working in a RL job, and someone pays $2 for something that took you an hour to get, they are equating your work time to $2/hour. Makes you feel good doesn't it? Now IF the game was fun and you felt like you were getting $7.50/hour of fun out of it, then someone paying that $2/hour is OBVIOUSLY only cheating themselves. So...which game do you want to play? What reason do you want to play for? That's how a game developer should think about the cash shop.
when you prove anyone have any advantage in game buying gems you can create a topic and complain about that.
I don't care for inflammatory catchphrases like pay-to-win any more than I do for "troll" or "fanboi". (besides, "win" what, exactly?)
But I'll say this: I dislike it, because ultimately it does give people an advantage. I'm still of the old school of thought that you should not be able to turn real life economic power into any sort of power in the game.
I'm even against being able to buy cosmetic stuff (because lord knows I've put in many hours in earning purely cosmetic stuff in MMOS), but I guess that's a completely and utterly lost case now.
As a side note, everyone realizes that the gold to gem exchange rate is limited by the devs right? In other words, even if two players agreed that 1 gem = 1 million gold, if that exchange rate is outside the fixed limits, the sale will not occur, or it will occur but the exchange bank will soak up the difference in the exchange rate.
Gem to gold sales is not a function of the open auction house, it's done in a sequestered exchange bank set up for just that purpose.
Just from playing I had enough money to purchase 5 of those catapults on my own, and I'm one person among a horde in WvWvW. You can keep trying to argue otherwise, but the gem shop has 0 to do with PvP. Those things were also a complete waste of money, I didn't see anyone die to them, they were too slow and easy to dodge, and have to be manually aimed and loaded. The rams on the other hand, are extremely useful, but they're also easy to afford.
The majority of people will be turning ingame gold INTO gems, not the other way around. I'd be willing to bet the majority of gem-sellers will be crafters trying to fund their mastery of the various crafts, which ~can~ get expensive as you get into the rarer items and higher level Runes for bags.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I was but I've pretty much waved the white flag anymore on the subject. Besides seems in this game it won't be a huge deal. Seems anyways.
As for your first part I can't stand those either. Not only are they completely cliche anymore but most posters don't even know what the hell they mean anymore and use them to basically label anything they don't like, anyone disagreeing with them, or to purposely get a rise out of people.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It isn't limited by the devs. It also isn't sequestered.
http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2
We also like the tradability of gems and gold because it makes the rest of the game’s economy more compelling. We’ll have a player-to-player Trading Post in the game—it’s like an auction house but better—which we’ll discuss in an upcoming blog post. Because gems can be traded for gold and vice versa, we don’t need two different trading systems, one for gold and one for gems. In Guild Wars 2, everything on the Trading Post is traded for gold, but of course, somebody who wants to earn gems can just sell items for gold, and then convert the gold to gems.
We have always taken our responsibility to players seriously with the original Guild Wars, and we will continue to do so with Guild Wars 2. We believe the foundation I’ve described here is the right foundation for us to build upon, and we look forward to sharing more details with you in the future as we nail down our microtransaction content.
-Mike O’Brien
John Smith posts is this thread why they can't do what you suggest they are doing.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gem/Honestly-does-anyone-believe-that-buying-gems-for-gold-will-work/page/1#post165018
There are consequences to artificially modifying the price of an item lacking a market failure.
If I were to make the price artificially lower to help reach the lower end, there would be a gap between supply and demand. Since we can’t change the supply, we suffer a shortage of supply, which causes further problems, including preventing those who do have a “willingness to pay” more from being able to complete a purchase.
This is glib, but I think the message that’s important is that when you are playing with markets, you can’t just do things, there are interdependent parts and if you mess with one, you mess with lots of other stuff too.
-John Smith
lool.a bit more reasonable? tell me how an item that can only use in PvE is an advantage? advantage over mobs? great, is good to all players on PvE.loool
seriously people dont even know the game, i mean no one, even people that play BW like me. we are all new to game, no one know how high lvl zones works and how easy is to get gold on high lvl, but in this forum seem people are all expert and pro games in GW2 already.
gems have nothing to do with it, If you're playing GW2, you've already won.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SoundStrategyNetwork around 1:05:32
OK so there is something being misuderstood...but there's where I got my info.