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SWTOR is dead because of arrogant, clueless lead devs

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  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460

    Originally posted by arctarus

     

    And tor pop is tanking...

    Is it, really?

    I'm not denying the possibility, but I have yet to see a 100% reliable source about this.

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    Originally posted by Cetra
    one reason why i really hate bioware. They dont own up to mistakes and truths and try to sugar coat the problems pissing you off even more.
    I really hate it when they say "we got a dedicated team working on blah blah blah" but that feature is always bugged or badly implemented.
    "Some people" have been hating Blizzard for the same thing for over 7 years now... and Warcraft still has over 10 million players =P



    Seems to be a standard thing to give grief to whatever new game comes out. Especially if you can relate it somehow to WoW. The same thing happened with Rift, and it still seems to be trucking along just fine. They haven't changed anything dramatically in the game...still more or less the same base game as it was when it launched, but there are few, if any hate threads on it any longer. The 'hate threads' have less to do with the games than they do with the people who need something new to rage against.

    The idea that a game is 'dead', when it has more players than any other MMORPG currently running (aside from WoW of course) is ridiculous.

    The idea that a game would not have a large initial buy in and then have a large population drop is just as ridiculous. It doesn't seem like EA is doing anything rational about it. New content is good, but they aren't going to attract enough new players to repopulate those servers. They need to consolidate the player base somehow. I'd vote for free, automated server transfers...but what do I know, I'm just a player.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • PuremallacePuremallace Member Posts: 1,856

    Originally posted by Sorrow

    Sorry gotta do it....

     

     

    TOLD YOU SO!!!

     

     

    There, I feel better now...

    If there is anyone on this site mmo champ, massively that can say "Told you so" it is me, but it is never a good thing when competition is removed from the market place. All it does is make people cling to Blizzards nuts even harder and causes the genre to stagnate.

     

     

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen Member UncommonPosts: 2,483
    Originally posted by Teala

    Doesn't surprise me in the least, I knew this games was going no where just a couple of hours into beta.   I was surprised I actually beta tested it for as long as I did before I deleted it from my HD.   I was really looking forward to a good MMO, what  I found in beta was far from it.   

    What is bad is that when I and others came forward and gave our opinions we were called trolls, haters and every other name under the sun for telling the truth and now...now many of those same people are on these very boards  saying the things some of us were telling you back when they dropped they dropped the NDA - before the game launched!  

    That's one of the reasons I stopped reviewing games.   Nobody cares to hear the truth.  Nobody cares about someone elses opinion, even if it means they could save themselves $60 or $150 dollars - they do not care.   So why should I care.  Waste your money on bad games.   Keep giving it to game companies that make half-baked games.   You can make bank that as long as people keep throwing money at bad games - you'll keep getting bad games.

     

    Oh hey about all those professional reviews!  How about them?  Huh...places giving the game - game of the year!  LMFAO!  

    Yup, [mod edit] would beat you down on the forums if you brought up any of the problems the game had in beta. I blame the arrogant people in charge of SWTOR like George, Daniel etc and the biodrones for not paying attention/belittling feedback. ALL, not some of the problems/features we had concern with in beta were the first things people brought up as concerns as release by subscribers.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • SorrowSorrow Member Posts: 1,195

    Originally posted by Alders

    Originally posted by Sorrow

    Honestly as things stand game developers are right about us, we are idiots. Technically all the power belongs to us, but we are too stupid, selfish, self-centered, and lazy to use that power.

    If gamers organized and would apply the real power of a corporate boycott to cripple or bankrupt one or two of the giants like EA, then all the other developers would sit up take notice and start treating us with the respect we deserve.

    Sadly due to bought and paid for gaming sites, viral marketing teams, and generic disingenious troublemakers, we stay disorganized and fighting each other rather than organizing and fighting the real enemy.

     

    Sad that as we have come into an age of communication with incredible technology we have actually lost the ability or desire to communicate about the issues that really make a difference.

     

    Best post in the entire thread.  This isn't just in gaming or entertainment, it's everywhere today.  We've gotten lazy, fat, and complacent.  Sure we can talk all we want how we're not happy about certain directions, but no one wants to get out of their comfort zone to do anything about it.

    It's the reason every government in the world is out of control, because the people are too complacent and lazy to stand up and say..  " We do not exsist to serve you, you exsist to serve us! "

    image

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460

    Originally posted by Teala

    Doesn't surprise me in the least, I knew this games was going no where just a couple of hours into beta.   I was surprised I actually beta tested it for as long as I did before I deleted it from my HD.   I was really looking forward to a good MMO, what  I found in beta was far from it.   

    What is bad is that when I and others came forward and gave our opinions we were called trolls, haters and every other name under the sun for telling the truth and now...now many of those same people are on these very boards  saying the things some of us were telling you back when they dropped they dropped the NDA - before the game launched!  

    That's one of the reasons I stopped reviewing games.   Nobody cares to hear the truth.  Nobody cares about someone elses opinion, even if it means they could save themselves $60 or $150 dollars - they do not care.   So why should I care.  Waste your money on bad games.   Keep giving it to game companies that make half-baked games.   You can make bank that as long as people keep throwing money at bad games - you'll keep getting bad games.

     

    Oh hey about all those professional reviews!  How about them?  Huh...places giving the game - game of the year!  LMFAO!  

    I for one am glad people like you stopped reviewing games.

    From this post, it's pretty obvious that you consider your reviews as "The Ultimate Truth", an not just an opinion. Well, you are wrong, your approach is wrong, and no, you are not some kind of masked super hero saving people from buying what YOU think are bad games.

    Good riddance, if something is just as bad as "arrogant, clueless developers" (citing the thread title), it's arrogant reviewers who think their opinion is the only valid one (and yeah, sorry if it sounds harsh, but I mean it).

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • stayBlindstayBlind Member UncommonPosts: 512

    Originally posted by Sorrow

    Originally posted by Alders


    Originally posted by Sorrow

    Honestly as things stand game developers are right about us, we are idiots. Technically all the power belongs to us, but we are too stupid, selfish, self-centered, and lazy to use that power.

    If gamers organized and would apply the real power of a corporate boycott to cripple or bankrupt one or two of the giants like EA, then all the other developers would sit up take notice and start treating us with the respect we deserve.

    Sadly due to bought and paid for gaming sites, viral marketing teams, and generic disingenious troublemakers, we stay disorganized and fighting each other rather than organizing and fighting the real enemy.

     

    Sad that as we have come into an age of communication with incredible technology we have actually lost the ability or desire to communicate about the issues that really make a difference.

     

    Best post in the entire thread.  This isn't just in gaming or entertainment, it's everywhere today.  We've gotten lazy, fat, and complacent.  Sure we can talk all we want how we're not happy about certain directions, but no one wants to get out of their comfort zone to do anything about it.

    It's the reason every government in the world is out of control, because the people are too complacent and lazy to stand up and say..  " We do not exsist to serve you, you exsist to serve us! "

    lol... you 'stand up' to a company who sells a product by .... not buying their current/future product(s). Now everyone just buys everything and then whines and complains and expects a company to change it. Giving companies money and whining in a  forum are not the way to change things. Not giving companies money for bad product is the way to change things. 

     

    'We vote with our pockets.'

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    [mod edit]
    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff Member Posts: 654
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    The idea that a game is 'dead', when it has more players than any other MMORPG currently running (aside from WoW of course) is ridiculous.

     

    [mod edit]

     

    Hint: it's not.

    It's below 400k and dropping like a brick.

    The 1.3 million number includes 1 million people who don't play and are unsubscribing, but who got a free month to cushion the sub loss.

    image

  • kanezfankanezfan Member UncommonPosts: 482

     


    Originally posted by Myria


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    The idea that a game is 'dead', when it has more players than any other MMORPG currently running (aside from WoW of course) is ridiculous.

     


    [mod edit]

     

    They said they sold 2.4 million copies of the game and now they say they have 1.3 million subs. That means they lost or failed to convert 1.1 million people into paying customers. How is that not a gigantic sign that the game is fucked? lol

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

     


    Originally posted by Myria


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    The idea that a game is 'dead', when it has more players than any other MMORPG currently running (aside from WoW of course) is ridiculous.

     

    [mod edit]

    Obviously disagree on some points, but the last sentence deserves a cookie. :-)

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

     


    Originally posted by kanezfan

    Originally posted by Myria


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    The idea that a game is 'dead', when it has more players than any other MMORPG currently running (aside from WoW of course) is ridiculous.

     


    [mod edit]

     

    They said they sold 2.4 million copies of the game and now they say they have 1.3 million subs. That means they lost or failed to convert 1.1 million people into paying customers. How is that not a gigantic sign that the game is fucked? lol


    When it's standard operating procedure for theme park style games. This is just how the games are going to operate, no matter what you do. Players are going to play for about three months, and then move on. Doesn't matter how much money you throw at it or how inventive you are with quests. That's just how it is.

    The only failure would be in not recognizing it and thinking that your game is going to avoid it. EA/Bioware might be getting ready to do this...it doesn't look like they're even acknowledging the population being on too many servers, much less doing anything about it.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Member UncommonPosts: 2,527

    Here is pretty much dead on what is involved when you deal with Publishers and Lucasarts it happened with Battlefront III

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDS6Ls0V2zQ

    I don't think the industry cares about making quality good games anymore just making buckets of cash, and its really starting to show now.

    Slapping the Star Wars name on it with as little content as possiible is what happened with TOR.

     

    All I can say is now "I told you so"


  • SkuldinSkuldin Member Posts: 79

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    Originally posted by RebornDragon

    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    "They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

    really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

     

    Stunlocking isn't fun gameplay. A stun here and there for a quick defensive or offensive boost is fine, but being able to chain them so close together is not fun or good combat design.

     

    regardless if it isnt fun,thats what a rogue class is suppose to do

     

    but i guess the failures they hired in for there pvp team thought differently

     

    not that it matters anyway,i doubt all the serious pvpers are even going to stay with swtor regardless.this games pvp just reminds me of world of warcraft,which was a joke

     

    Actually, there are alternatives, don't assume WOW's model is the only (or best) one

    In DAOC steathers were completely different in design, they  did not stun lock you, they hit you with massive burst damage early on and it was a race to the finish to see if they could kill their opponent before they healed up or out lasted them in damage before the end.

    I recall playing an Infiltrator and I'd hit the target with a big backstab using poison daggers to boost the dps with dots, then switching daggers to apply more poisons and trying to get the quick kill.

    Against sitting cloth casters this was not such a challenge, but against a tank, was near impossible except for the very skilled (or if you hit him before he was able to regen his full health (which actually took a minute or two based on downtime mechanics that title had then)

    Back to the article, the quotes in the OP aren't nearly so inflammatory if not taken out of context.  In reading the whole article he doesn't come off nearly so arrogant and it does sound like they actually put quite a bit of thought into it.

    Where my soul withers is listening to the gear / gear stats focus of the PVP design a la WOW, that's another area DAOC differed and I don't care for the trend of differing gear sets for PVP vs PVE and having to collect both, just a pain in the arse IMO.

     

     

    You must be my brother from another mother.  I had started to type up something very similar to what you said and I for one am completely sick of the PvE/PvP gap that exists in all the new games.  It's a terrible design decision any way you slice it and is trying to strong arm people like me that like to do both into playing twice as much. 

    I end up not playing PvE almost at all in the case of WoW because most of the PVE gear is worthless in PVP and with Mists of Pandaria copying SWTOR's Expertise stat (PVP Power), they are separating it even further.

     

     

    Thirty years of gaming experience...not sure if I should be proud of that
    www.mmoexaminer.blogspot.com

    image
  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    Originally posted by kanezfan

     


    Originally posted by The_Korrigan


    [mod edit]

    Before you called me a SW:TOR "fanboi", you should have checked my post history - it would have avoided you some unneeded embarassment...

    [mod edit]

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Deleted User

    To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

     

    I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

     

    Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    This.    Though I did play DA:O because in the early days I was an active participant in the DA:O boards.   But, yeah, they really did just tell the community to go to hell.   

  • eyceleycel Member Posts: 1,334
    Originally posted by Kickaxe
    Originally posted by eycel

    I dont see where u guys are getting of on, I like SWOTOR and TSW rocks.

    This thread is worse then racist old people, Id rather listen to C-span then read this crap drivel.

    Unsurprising though, wouldn't you say, Eycel?  In general, forum participants are content dealing with half truths construed in whatever light their pre-concieved notions would support.

     

    I have plenty of criticisms of TOR, but the linked article is nowhere particularly arrogant.  In fact, I would say it is simply honest and refreshingly direct.

    [mod edit]

    Any way, I just think after reading so many of these ToR bash threads I guess its more amusing for people that have nothing to do with the game then it is for people that actually play them.  That goes for all games as well, weather your gamer or not.

    ps: Id also just like to say that I dont think the developers would appreciate a thread like this and I for one dont think its appropriate in any way [mod edit]

    image

  • VocadiVocadi Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Originally posted by galphar

    Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums:

    1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad"

    2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad"

    3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"

     

    Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.

    On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  

    image
  • ClerigoClerigo Member UncommonPosts: 400

    Well im not gonna say "i told you so" because it really doesnt make any impact at this moment.

    What im gonna say is that it takes a strong and commited dev team to come public and admit that they were wrong at some stage of game developing and that things will get better soon.

    There are very powerful words in this industry,

     we were wrong and we are going to fix it

    we listen to players and we implemented the ideas that came to us

    we listen to players, we appreciate your feedback but we feel some of these ideas can be implemented but others wont be

    we feel towards the dedicated player that if you have been paying a subscription to one of our games for 5 years, and you had to buy all the expansions of our shitty game, we decided to offer you "that other game"...

    Its sad, but you know, not every dev team is called CCP, and if you are not playing EVE online, you are in gamers hell bus...

  • sfc1971sfc1971 Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    SWTOR will be used as an example of what not to do when developing and maintaining an MMO.

     

    HAHA

     

    Same was said for Vanguard and then AoC, then WAR and also STO

    Dont forget NGE.

     

    There are a long list of games in the "What NOT to do" pile.

    Problem is, Devs (for some insane reason) keep rooting around in that pile and putting that same crap back in these new games.

    I think the exact opposite is true. MMO developers think "I got this great idea" lock themselves up in an ivory tower for half a decade, then proudly launch their great creation on the huddled masses below and wonder why they don't regonize a single thing in the world around them anymore and everyone goes "who the hell are you and what is this montrosity you call a MMO, have you been living in a game? It is missing all the essential features and includes all the mistakes of half a decade ago".

    Games evolve, take very basic stuff like saving. F5 for save? It didn't used to exist, now it is near standard. The number keys for item/action selection? Someone invented that. And others copied and it became the norm.

    And you either learn from that and made sure your game stands on the shoulders of others OR have to re-invent everything yourself the hardway. Like dealing with spammers.

    If I wish for one thing and one thing alone, it is a MMO that at launch has the well established basic mechanism for dealing with spam ready at the start. 

    If MMO's were cars, every new car would launch without brakes and the developers would go "A means to stop? Gosh whatever are you thinking user, go away, maybe in 1.6"

  • TUX426TUX426 Member Posts: 1,907

    Agreed! Arrogant and egotistical describes their attitudes.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Vocadi
    Originally posted by galphar Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums: 1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad" 2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad" 3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"   Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.
    On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  




    Galphar is just pointing out the repetitive nature of these forums. The responses and opinions expressed seem almost independent of the games themselves. Every new game that releases follows the same trends on these forums. You can literally watch it happen. It's worse than being bad, it's boring.

    Everyone can express their opinion, but it might be more interesting if they engaged in a discussion instead of a shouting match trying to "win" the thread.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 4,990
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Vocadi

    Originally posted by galphar Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums: 1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad" 2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad" 3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"   Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.
    On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion?  With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here? 

     

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.  



    Galphar is just pointing out the repetitive nature of these forums. The responses and opinions expressed seem almost independent of the games themselves. Every new game that releases follows the same trends on these forums. You can literally watch it happen. It's worse than being bad, it's boring.

    Everyone can express their opinion, but it might be more interesting if they engaged in a discussion instead of a shouting match trying to "win" the thread.

     

    Considering the route most of the newer mmos have gone and their cycle is it the least surprising people's response and remarks on it has followed the same pattern? I think believing it is simply the nature of this forum is a tad shortsighted frankly.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • erictlewiserictlewis Member UncommonPosts: 3,022

    Star Wars is dead due to lack of forsight from ea/blizzard and the devs using an old engine that limited what they could do and how they could do it.  It also is dead becasue it did not go outside the box, it stayed with the 10 rats,fedex, that we all know too well.

    We were all warned but I fell for the hype anyways. 

    Star Wars is going to be looked at as how not to do an mmo.

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Member Posts: 2,414
    Originally posted by erictlewis

    Star Wars is dead due to lack of forsight from ea/blizzard and the devs using an old engine that limited what they could do and how they could do it.  It also is dead becasue it did not go outside the box, it stayed with the 10 rats,fedex, that we all know too well.

    We were all warned but I fell for the hype anyways. 

    Star Wars is going to be looked at as how not to do an mmo.

    What does Blizzard have to do with it?

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

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