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Debunking and defending D3 here (also POE,T2 vs Diablo3)
Lobotomist
Member EpicPosts: 5,980
Here is the deal.
I feel that there is lot of lies and misconceptions flying around D3 since launch.
1.People claiming they played D3 while they only played open beta. Which as said many times over is stripped down test version of the game that is not representative of release client in any way.
2.People boasting advantages of T2 and POE while they didnt actually get to play them, or only glanced them briefly
3.People straight down inventing lies about D3 because they hate Blizzard (with good reasons, but hate the company not the game)
.......
As great fan of Point And click action rpgs. And roguelike games.
Someone who played All 3 diablos , been in POE closed beta for several months now. And in closed T2 beta for a month.
As someone who did gameplay design for quite sucessful comercial roguelike. And is very interested in gameplay design...
I want to throw a glow to you.
Lets compare , debunk and discuss.
But in gentleman manner.
I will answer any question or concern you have.
Comments
Let me just start with debunking funny theory that Torchlight 2 has better graphic than Diablo 3.
For sake of fairness , these are ingame screenshots taken by me:
Diablo 3:
And Torchlight 2:
Game lenght:
This is how long it took me to finish Act 1 with my barbarian.
Playing solo ,exploring maps , doing sidequests and talking with NPCs
9 hours , 20 minutes - at lvl 16
I'm having fun with a friend, reminds me of the old days playin d2, diff graphics, same ol good time. That's all i gotta say.
Just Act 1? That's impressive. It took me longer to finish my first playthrough than anyone else in my Friend's list cause I went everywhere I could find and did everything I could find to do. My first playthrough ran about 19 hours and I was level 32 or 33 when I finished the game on Normal.
Which for the record, would be my only REAL complaint with D3. Being forced to play through the game on easymode to unlock how the game was obviously meant to be played from the start: minimum of Nightmare.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Pretty much same
Generally 1 portal per open world area. In T2 its placed close to the entrance to area. While in D3 its hidden towards end of the area.Dungeons generally have portal entrance on higher levels. Provided dungeon is not random spawned.
I really went exploring every inch of the map and uncovered pretty many random dungeons and events.
As for not being able to play the game at difficulty mode of your choosing,
I would like to adress this too.
I have given it some thought. Lets just watch it from design point of view.
Blizzard decided to make Diablo a story heavy game. Making a ritch atmospheric story line an integral part of experience.
On other hand Torchlight also has story - but the story is more there to flavor the random dungeon hack.
So Diablo Story>Hack , Torchlight Hack>Story
This is why Blizz are forcing us to play trough story...
What happens is:
When you play online you can not enjoy the story, you actually just rush trough the game.
So this is what they did:
Normal you play alone. And the rest of difficulties are done online where nobody even cares about the story anyway.
There is two important things to note - Blizzard designed Diablo3 as online game , solo is just an afterthought.
And The D3 difficulties are actually leveling stages , not actual game difficulties.So you can not just choose to start playing on lvl 60.
..
While I wouldnt really call this a perfect solution. But its the one Blizzard took. And such things are not new. Borderlands also had similar gameplay :1-30 first playtrough , 30-60 second.
---------
Torchlight on other hand has difficulty separated form levels. Its completely different approach.
...
IMHO i would go with T2 on this
I think you're not going to get out of tackling the comparison between the old and busted way of picking skills (skill tree) and the new hotness (D3 skill/rune system).
Personally, I believed it would afford a high degree of customization before the game came out. After playing it, the new skill system far exceeded my expectations.
I have made so many different combinations on my monk that I can't even remember them all. I am constantly changing my builds. There are layers to this skill system that are very subtle and you have to figure out for yourself.
You have so many options that figuring out what goes well together actually provides a lot of depth.
I don't look up guides or builds on websites. It is sooo much fun to come up with something and try it out, only to see that there is a weakness that needs to be covered in the build. So you make adjustments on the fly and test it out some more. Eventually you figure out exactly what works.
I am having a bit of a build ADD problem though, as I can't seem to stick to one thing for too long.
Edit: anyway accidentally posted early oops. But the myth to be debunked is that this system is dumbed down compared to skill trees. Quite the opposite actually. It is deeper than any traditional skill tree I have ever seen. It actually makes you think about your build more. The game doesn't tell you what goes with what you have to figure it out on your own.
Like I said, before launch I knew it would be better than a skill tree, but I didn't realize how much better it would be.
In actual use, this thing blows a dumb skill tree out of the water. It's not dumbed down at all.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
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http://www.shadowshand.com
Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one? I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise. Granted not as close as Path of Exile.
However, my question is:
Which game has the flashier moves? You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e? My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.
Almost every monster in TF2 explodes in some way while most monsters(that i have seen) in Diablo III just fall down.
That should tell you something.
On the other hand though some skills in Diablo are insanely cool like the monk punches and the demon hunter skills.
So i guess both cover those departments in good ways albeit different ones.
Why do you need to defend it?
Is something wrong with it that needs defending?
This is just what I am talking about - lies and misconceptions.
I am just going to mark it as : False / Debunked
Great question, and perfectly illustrating how insane was D3 budget.
They wrote about it lately. Take for example Wizard class - it has 25 available skills. And each of these skills can be modified with 5 different runes.
They decided that every skill+rune combination should have its own special animation.
This brough them to 120 unique skill animations per class!
As for combat feeling. Blizzard developed their inhous physic system. Almost every part of scenery. Dungeon or outside can be smashed, often falling and killing monsters around it.
Depending on how powerful you are - monsters are falling,knocked,decapitated, or exploding in sprays of blood.
If you carry elemental weapon, monsters burn are electrified etc... often you can see decapitated body parts still flaming on the map.
Also monsters react to the hits, parry or are moved by its force.
Torchlight2
Lets just say. Run D3 , play it a bit. Than run T2 and you will think something is wrong with T2. The difference is so drastic.
T2 also has exploding monsters and physics. But there is just so much team of 20 people can do. And its certanly not 120 unique skill animations per class
How about some videos?
No.
There is simply laughable amount of lies and misconceptions flying around.
I totally agree with this! I do wish they were a bit more specific with identifying how a skill works. For instance, on the barbarian you can get a run for cyclone spin that is called blood funnel. It says grants life from using cyclone on enemies. If you ctrl and hover over it though, it says grants 1% life for each critical hit while cycloning. I felt like that was a bit mis leading. How hard would it be to change hit to crit in the text. But after I figured that out I just stacked crit runes and bam I was a healing machine. There are so many builds and its fun to figure out the weird ways to make skills work together.
which part? if you mean the first one i specifically said "that i have seen"
I just feel that stuff explodes more in torchlight 2 from the very beggining, they explode for everything i do to them
Seriously, i literally ment exploding as in the only thing they do even when just hit by a god gam knucle
He asked for the "extra explosion" so i was just going by what he said.
The few hours ive played my monk (im waiting for my friends to buy it to play more) i didnt saw much difference, im sure it must just be me, pretty sure electrifying atacks and the like should do something different.
Also post videos of the things you debunk not just write a two liner.
Gladly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEM0kHXgKIg
And bear in mind that it ranks up with your power. Here its from start of the game, but the effects you get on buffed up character with elemental weapons gets pretty insane.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5005008#5005008
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5005054#5005054
I, too have played all three games. I believe that they each do something better, and that players would do best to choose based on what is more valuable to them. Here are the reasons why I think you should play each:
Diablo 3: Graphics, Animation and Storyline.
Artstyle aside, this game has the prettiest graphic engine. It is definately 'shiny' and if you watch the animations, and dynamic events, it sure looks good. The single strongest feature for this game is the Storyline. Not the actual story... but how it is presented. The combination of cut scenes, interactive quests, and audio clips really do a great job.
Path of Exile: Gameplay, Price
Path of Exile has the best gameplay, hands down. It is Diablo II on steriods. They have taken the old style of gameplay, and built on it in a great way. There is a reasonable challenge to the game... and it is extremely satisfying. The game is also free. This means that even if you spent $60 on D3, there is no reason you cant check this out later, and see what you were missing.
Torchlight 2: Offline Play, Mods
Torchlight 2 falls between the first two. It is very pretty, and can be compared to D3 on graphics. I do believe its engine just isnt as good as D3... but it is reasonably close. It has a storyline, and it rolls it out reasonably well (but without all the bells and whistles that D3 has). It also has solid gameplay. Not as good as PoE, but much more tangible than D3. On top of all of this, it is the only one to offer offline gameplay, and the ability to modify your game. This is HUGE for some people. Lastly, it only costs $20.
I think all three games are great. You really cant go wrong with any of them. However, many people may find that one of them is a GREAT game (for them) and the other two are just good.
(and just to clear up something pre-emptively: I am not anti-DRM because I want to deal with piratism or some philosophical drivel but because of having been involved with DRM for quite some time I know that the only real effect of DRM is a worse user experience)
I very much agree
All 3 are great games. With exception that POE gameplay is not best IMHO.
It has some amazing inovations and most complex system. But gameplay wise. Both D3 and T2 take the cake
One's $60, another $20 and finally one is $0-$20 (mt's).
One's by a huge company, another a semi-pedigreed team and finally one by a relative unknown.
Two require online all the time, one offers a standard SP mode.
Movement, which has the best setup for moving your avatar?
The genre is stupid simple, does any offer a real challenge?
Why did we have years of none of these and then a glutton of them?
Why haven't they evlolved into more of a 3rd person perspective?
This genre is so simplistic that to me they are all pretty much the same. One that offers a challenge I'd call the best. So in your opinion which is the hardest?
I meant more of a suite of comparison vids.
Since you are in T2 and POE beta you could make comparison vids in comparable situations from all the games.
Like make lvl 1-3 D3, POE, T2 vids, just capture them, no voiceover or anything. should be a quicky.
I'm not in T2 or POE beta so i cant compare them to D3 at all, hence the video is useless to me, i know how D3 looks and plays.
To hit on the game length topic I'd like to point out that it took me 19 hours and 7 minutes to beat the game on normal. I explored every map and all dungeons but still played pretty fast and kept moving.
I also only died about 6 or so times. I'd say for the average person who doesn't just rush through the game it will take them 15-20 hours on normal solo.
T2's character moves on the screen the fastest. I prefer that in this genre.