In a nutshell, your trying to equate a game experience with a group of people, exploring or questing, to being undercut at the auction house. They are NOTHING alike, at all.
There is no reason for soloers to play MMOs, unless its to show off thier uber gear...lol.. because other than that, they dont want to be bothered with people.
Its not a weak counter argument, it appears so to you because you don't understand what I said or are ignoring 90% of it. You then go on to make an emotive rant about soloers and how they think when you are obviously not a soloer and so don't know how they think and what their motivations are. Please explain?
In short - there is no way to play an average MMO like a single player game as you claim soloers play. The game world experience is dictated by other players actions. Have you ever played a single player game where another player suddenly appears and kills you, kill steals you, underbids you, undercuts you, who earlier killed the rare spawn mob you were hoping to kill when you logged on, trains you, devalues your currency by farming etc etc etc.
A lot of negative points there about your fellow players activities. It's no wonder you prefer to solo if all you see are kill stealers and gold farmers. With the increasing trend toward solo play and opinions like this, I fear for the future of MMO's. They're going to be little more than single player games with chat rooms and protection bubbles so your fellow player can't affect your own little world. Hell, it's already heading that way with TOR with its many instanced areas that nobody can bother you in.
I think the devs of GW2 are making a last ditched effort to keep the soloers and the groupers working towards the same goal. If the experiment doesn't work, the chances of seeing another title being greenlighted that has a large budget will lessen considerably.
At that point, many devs will probably concentrate their efforts on more specialized MMO's that are aimed specifically at a certain target group, like PvP, Raid, Solo, etc. Considering the impasse on threads like this, and many more I've seen like it, it's probably inevitable.
In the meantime, you'd think some company would at least try a solo server in one of their games. The only reason I can think why they haven't is the solo servers would be overcrowded in short time, and the raiders would complain about having nobody to play with.
I think the devs of GW2 are making a last ditched effort to keep the soloers and the groupers working towards the same goal. If the experiment doesn't work, the chances of seeing another title being greenlighted that has a large budget will lessen considerably.
At that point, many devs will probably concentrate their efforts on more specialized MMO's that are aimed specifically at a certain target group, like PvP, Raid, Solo, etc. Considering the impasse on threads like this, and many more I've seen like it, it's probably inevitable.
In the meantime, you'd think some company would at least try a solo server in one of their games. The only reason I can think why they haven't is the solo servers would be overcrowded in short time, and the raiders would complain about having nobody to play with.
I play Eve solo, mostly. Played it like that since 2003.
I like playing solo and doing my own thing. Why do I play Eve instead of, say, X-3 (which I also have played)?
Because the universe provides diverse challenges based on the actions of other players that I in turn have to deal with. It's challenging and engaging gameplay. And in turn, even while I'm playing solo, I'm changing the world around me. Not that I'm averse to people joining in on what I'm doing as long as they want to play nice. And of course in Eve I have the option of blowing them up
I don't like playing in groups much because I deal with jerks too much (guess I'm unlucky). It's also a lot of work if I just want to play casually. But I like other people in the game because that's what ultimately shapes the Eve universe. Solo play like mine is only possible in a game like Eve.
Perhaps this is why I burn out so quickly on WoW clones, come to think of it. I stayed with Eden Eternal for a long time only because I had a guild I liked, but even then I played mostly solo. The world and gameplay in "WoW clones" is shaped by the devs, not by the players, and both solo and group content feels forced, not liquid and organic and evolving.
Eve was my first MMO, and once it dies, it will probably be my last.
How I feel about this issue is the only right way to see it, no compromise should be attempted. MMO's should cater exlusively to my playstyle, polo ralph lauren stores everyone else is an idiot.
Two classes could solo to endgame in EQ; Druid and Necromancer.
Druid, Necro, Bard, Beastlord, SK, Monk, ranger could and frequently did solo to end game. And it was longer, I stated that, but no it wasn't a hell of a lot longer. Bards, before they were nerfed were better than druids and almost as good as necro's - charm, fear, swarm kiting ftw.
Again it wasn't hard, just longer. You had to watch the wandering mobs, and learn to kite for most of those classes but definately do-able and once you got the hang of it, pretty easy. Melody wasn't added till years later, strap on drums, fire up selo's and dot everyone, have a charm and fear for the just in case moments.
But yes for all classes grouping was better.
[...]
They are multiplayer games. But multiplayer in MMO's has never, ever ever meant MUST BE GROUPED. It has only EVER meant can interact. Thats it.
This is the thing: some classes in EQ could solo, but even those that could, it was much longer. I personally don't have a problem with a game being soloable to max level, but the problem comes in when it's as easy (time and/or difficulty, pick one) to do so. If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group. That leads to a self-defeating cycle where you can't find a group because there's no significant benefit over soloing, which ultimately takes its toll on the community.
I cut my teeth on Everquest, and I played EQ2 at launch for a few years. EQ2, at launch, was a definite group-first game, but about six months in, mimicked the WoW solo-first (group-agnostic?) model. The difference in the community after a month or two was shocking - populations didn't change, but chat channels were wastelands, other players were a little more brazen about moving in on your camp, and so on.
At the end of the day, it's all well and good to let people solo. Just flatten out the progression and loot curves to compensate.
Two classes could solo to endgame in EQ; Druid and Necromancer.
Druid, Necro, Bard, Beastlord, SK, Monk, ranger could and frequently did solo to end game. And it was longer, I stated that, but no it wasn't a hell of a lot longer. Bards, before they were nerfed were better than druids and almost as good as necro's - charm, fear, swarm kiting ftw.
Again it wasn't hard, just longer. You had to watch the wandering mobs, and learn to kite for most of those classes but definately do-able and once you got the hang of it, pretty easy. Melody wasn't added till years later, strap on drums, fire up selo's and dot everyone, have a charm and fear for the just in case moments.
But yes for all classes grouping was better.
[...]
They are multiplayer games. But multiplayer in MMO's has never, ever ever meant MUST BE GROUPED. It has only EVER meant can interact. Thats it.
This is the thing: some classes in EQ could solo, but even those that could, it was much longer. I personally don't have a problem with a game being soloable to max level, but the problem comes in when it's as easy (time and/or difficulty, pick one) to do so. If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group. That leads to a self-defeating cycle where you can't find a group because there's no significant benefit over soloing, which ultimately takes its toll on the community.
I cut my teeth on Everquest, and I played EQ2 at launch for a few years. EQ2, at launch, was a definite group-first game, but about six months in, mimicked the WoW solo-first (group-agnostic?) model. The difference in the community after a month or two was shocking - populations didn't change, but chat channels were wastelands, other players were a little more brazen about moving in on your camp, and so on.
At the end of the day, it's all well and good to let people solo. Just flatten out the progression and loot curves to compensate.
I agree with most of what you posted except where you say "If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group.".
In EQ I played an enchanter and a necromancer. As an enchanter I was always able to find groups, I could solo more efficiently with charm and stuns and duoing with a druid was crazy experience compared to grouping. As a necromancer I could easily out level a good group.
So why did I spend most of my enchanter time in groups with good in-game friends and why did I always look forward to those rare (compared to enchanter) necromancer group invites from good in-game friends? Because even though I prefer to solo and it was better experience overall, groups offer a more "fun" time IF you have a good group of in-game friends.
As for comtemporary groups in MMO's, I think people prefer to solo more now because getting a group in the queing system now is like getting a bus just as school gets out, never know what your going to get but you know its going to be annoying and unpleasant in most cases.
Two classes could solo to endgame in EQ; Druid and Necromancer.
Druid, Necro, Bard, Beastlord, SK, Monk, ranger could and frequently did solo to end game. And it was longer, I stated that, but no it wasn't a hell of a lot longer. Bards, before they were nerfed were better than druids and almost as good as necro's - charm, fear, swarm kiting ftw.
Again it wasn't hard, just longer. You had to watch the wandering mobs, and learn to kite for most of those classes but definately do-able and once you got the hang of it, pretty easy. Melody wasn't added till years later, strap on drums, fire up selo's and dot everyone, have a charm and fear for the just in case moments.
But yes for all classes grouping was better.
[...]
They are multiplayer games. But multiplayer in MMO's has never, ever ever meant MUST BE GROUPED. It has only EVER meant can interact. Thats it.
This is the thing: some classes in EQ could solo, but even those that could, it was much longer. I personally don't have a problem with a game being soloable to max level, but the problem comes in when it's as easy (time and/or difficulty, pick one) to do so. If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group. That leads to a self-defeating cycle where you can't find a group because there's no significant benefit over soloing, which ultimately takes its toll on the community.
I cut my teeth on Everquest, and I played EQ2 at launch for a few years. EQ2, at launch, was a definite group-first game, but about six months in, mimicked the WoW solo-first (group-agnostic?) model. The difference in the community after a month or two was shocking - populations didn't change, but chat channels were wastelands, other players were a little more brazen about moving in on your camp, and so on.
At the end of the day, it's all well and good to let people solo. Just flatten out the progression and loot curves to compensate.
I agree with most of what you posted except where you say "If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group.".
In EQ I played an enchanter and a necromancer. As an enchanter I was always able to find groups, I could solo more efficiently with charm and stuns and duoing with a druid was crazy experience compared to grouping. As a necromancer I could easily out level a good group.
So why did I spend most of my enchanter time in groups with good in-game friends and why did I always look forward to those rare (compared to enchanter) necromancer group invites from good in-game friends? Because even though I prefer to solo and it was better experience overall, groups offer a more "fun" time IF you have a good group of in-game friends.
As for comtemporary groups in MMO's, I think people prefer to solo more now because getting a group in the queing system now is like getting a bus just as school gets out, never know what your going to get but you know its going to be annoying and unpleasant in most cases.
You may be right, but to some degree, I think the unpleasantness is partially because of solo-first mentalities. I had my fair share of bad groups in EQ, but I would at least be reasonably sure that everyone I grouped with past level 20 or so was at least familiar with their class role in the group, encounter mechanics (e.g., aggro, mez), and basic etiquitte. The post-school bus theory is definitely true in my experience, but I think a large reason that happens is because when people get to the mid-to-high levels with a minimum of grouping, it's difficult for them to adjust their playstyles.
The corollary to my point - When I played EQ, by the time I was in my mid-20s, I had a pretty solid friends list where I could do a quick online check and find a group if I needed to, or, at least, have a quick chat with someone. Most of these people were folks I never met in real life, but met through grouping. That's probably what kept me playing EQ as long as I did. LOTRO, in which I recently hit level 40, I don't think I've had a meaningful interaction with anyone. Even within group situations, everything is very task-focused, and when the instance is done, everyone more or less says "gg" and bails.
Maybe I'm just viewing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I can't seem to find any kind of game that comes close to recreating the social atmosphere of EQ.
You may be right, but to some degree, I think the unpleasantness is partially because of solo-first mentalities. I had my fair share of bad groups in EQ, but I would at least be reasonably sure that everyone I grouped with past level 20 or so was at least familiar with their class role in the group, encounter mechanics (e.g., aggro, mez), and basic etiquitte. The post-school bus theory is definitely true in my experience, but I think a large reason that happens is because when people get to the mid-to-high levels with a minimum of grouping, it's difficult for them to adjust their playstyles.
The corollary to my point - When I played EQ, by the time I was in my mid-20s, I had a pretty solid friends list where I could do a quick online check and find a group if I needed to, or, at least, have a quick chat with someone. Most of these people were folks I never met in real life, but met through grouping. That's probably what kept me playing EQ as long as I did. LOTRO, in which I recently hit level 40, I don't think I've had a meaningful interaction with anyone. Even within group situations, everything is very task-focused, and when the instance is done, everyone more or less says "gg" and bails.
Maybe I'm just viewing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I can't seem to find any kind of game that comes close to recreating the social atmosphere of EQ.
My problem is I can't find anyone worth grouping with. Most people are rude, obnoxious, only looking for a group to use for their own devices, racing through to get to the boss, not caring what anyone else wants. They are selfish and stupid, wanting to rake in as many XP as they can in as short a time as possible before moving on to do something else. They don't care about anyone but themselves and honestly, I don't want to spend a second around most of them anyhow. Yes, there was a time when there were "better people" playing these games, but that was before they went mainstream. In the beginning, most players shared the same niche. They had the same interests and goals. Therefore they formed a single community. Today, there is a variety of interests and goals, it's hard to find people who are similar enough to make a good group.
To be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing either. The genre couldn't have survived if it hadn't gone mainstream. It was a natural progression for a huge number of different types of people to get involved in the genre. Even back in the "old days", I don't think people were all that hot, you still had shallow, stupid, obnoxious people around whose only commentary was telling off-color jokes. Maybe the problem is that most of us grew up and the people we run into who act like they acted back in the old days are people we don't want to be around today.
Even the old-time gamers I see today, I don't want to play with. They're just as bad as anyone else. The old days are gone. Good riddance to them. It's better to have a wide variety of games to play and people to play them with than to have a single type and a shrinking genre.
You may be right, but to some degree, I think the unpleasantness is partially because of solo-first mentalities. I had my fair share of bad groups in EQ, but I would at least be reasonably sure that everyone I grouped with past level 20 or so was at least familiar with their class role in the group, encounter mechanics (e.g., aggro, mez), and basic etiquitte. The post-school bus theory is definitely true in my experience, but I think a large reason that happens is because when people get to the mid-to-high levels with a minimum of grouping, it's difficult for them to adjust their playstyles.
The corollary to my point - When I played EQ, by the time I was in my mid-20s, I had a pretty solid friends list where I could do a quick online check and find a group if I needed to, or, at least, have a quick chat with someone. Most of these people were folks I never met in real life, but met through grouping. That's probably what kept me playing EQ as long as I did. LOTRO, in which I recently hit level 40, I don't think I've had a meaningful interaction with anyone. Even within group situations, everything is very task-focused, and when the instance is done, everyone more or less says "gg" and bails.
Maybe I'm just viewing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I can't seem to find any kind of game that comes close to recreating the social atmosphere of EQ.
My problem is I can't find anyone worth grouping with. Most people are rude, obnoxious, only looking for a group to use for their own devices, racing through to get to the boss, not caring what anyone else wants. They are selfish and stupid, wanting to rake in as many XP as they can in as short a time as possible before moving on to do something else. They don't care about anyone but themselves and honestly, I don't want to spend a second around most of them anyhow. Yes, there was a time when there were "better people" playing these games, but that was before they went mainstream. In the beginning, most players shared the same niche. They had the same interests and goals. Therefore they formed a single community. Today, there is a variety of interests and goals, it's hard to find people who are similar enough to make a good group.
To be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing either. The genre couldn't have survived if it hadn't gone mainstream. It was a natural progression for a huge number of different types of people to get involved in the genre. Even back in the "old days", I don't think people were all that hot, you still had shallow, stupid, obnoxious people around whose only commentary was telling off-color jokes. Maybe the problem is that most of us grew up and the people we run into who act like they acted back in the old days are people we don't want to be around today.
Even the old-time gamers I see today, I don't want to play with. They're just as bad as anyone else. The old days are gone. Good riddance to them. It's better to have a wide variety of games to play and people to play them with than to have a single type and a shrinking genre.
My problem is I can't find anyone worth grouping with. Most people are rude, obnoxious, only looking for a group to use for their own devices, racing through to get to the boss, not caring what anyone else wants. They are selfish and stupid, wanting to rake in as many XP as they can in as short a time as possible before moving on to do something else. They don't care about anyone but themselves and honestly, I don't want to spend a second around most of them anyhow. Yes, there was a time when there were "better people" playing these games, but that was before they went mainstream. In the beginning, most players shared the same niche. They had the same interests and goals. Therefore they formed a single community. Today, there is a variety of interests and goals, it's hard to find people who are similar enough to make a good group.
To be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing either. The genre couldn't have survived if it hadn't gone mainstream. It was a natural progression for a huge number of different types of people to get involved in the genre. Even back in the "old days", I don't think people were all that hot, you still had shallow, stupid, obnoxious people around whose only commentary was telling off-color jokes. Maybe the problem is that most of us grew up and the people we run into who act like they acted back in the old days are people we don't want to be around today.
Even the old-time gamers I see today, I don't want to play with. They're just as bad as anyone else. The old days are gone. Good riddance to them. It's better to have a wide variety of games to play and people to play them with than to have a single type and a shrinking genre.
Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system. If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again.
Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you. In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds. Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.
Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating. No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.
They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going
Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system. If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again.
Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you. In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds. Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.
Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating. No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.
They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going
Reputation really doesn't work in modern MMOs, all one has to do is change characters or change servers and their bad reputation vanishes. Since there isn't a single community anymore, that doesn't seem to matter either. There are always groups you can join and, if you wear out your welcome there, just go join a different group. Guilds can be useful in weeding out some of the random grouping, but that works only if you stick within your narrow niche of friends or within your guild. Guilds are very useful for that kind of thing, you have a group of people that you know and, assuming you don't stray outside of that group, you're probably going to get a better experience, again assuming that the people in your guild want to play the same way you do.
Last guild I was in, in fact in most guilds, they didn't. They all want to run as fast as they can through the instance, get to the boss, get as much XP as they can and get out. That seems to be the norm these days. I, however, like to be slow, methodical, loot every chest, check every body, pick up everything that gets dropped, even if it isn't the big drops that come off the boss. So I'm checking chests, they're running down the hall as fast as they can. No thanks. I've talked to lots of guildies and they all agree that the chances of me finding a party that takes things slow is somewhere between slim and nil.
Probably the biggest problem with modern grouping is that it's universal. You don't have to actually be at the place you want to go, you just put in a request, people from all over the "world" join the group, it takes everyone 30-45 minutes to get there and get ready and you go do it. By the time everyone is ready, the first people, the ones who were standing in front of the dungeon from the beginning, are bored silly and just want to get it over with. The people who were last were probably already in another group elsewhere, trying to maximize XP, and have to rush from that group to the new group to get going on another boss run with the least down time possible. With the mad rush to endgame, most people only care about gaining levels, not about making friends. And, of course, just because you're friends with someone, as above, doesn't mean you necessarily want to group with them.
Games are never going back to the way they were. They can't. Living in the past, dreaming nostalgically about the way things used to be is pointless. This is the new MMO reality. Either play that way or don't play. I don't see any other way to get around the problems.
Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system. If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again.
Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you. In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds. Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.
Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating. No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.
They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going
Games are never going back to the way they were. They can't. Living in the past, dreaming nostalgically about the way things used to be is pointless. This is the new MMO reality. Either play that way or don't play. I don't see any other way to get around the problems.
The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them. If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).
In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.
The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them. If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).
In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.
EvE has it's own problems, like the douchebags that camp the gates in low sec space so they can kill anyone coming through. That's a whole class of people who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.
Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system. If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again.
Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you. In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds. Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.
Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating. No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.
They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going
Reputation really doesn't work in modern MMOs, all one has to do is change characters or change servers and their bad reputation vanishes. Since there isn't a single community anymore, that doesn't seem to matter either. There are always groups you can join and, if you wear out your welcome there, just go join a different group. Guilds can be useful in weeding out some of the random grouping, but that works only if you stick within your narrow niche of friends or within your guild. Guilds are very useful for that kind of thing, you have a group of people that you know and, assuming you don't stray outside of that group, you're probably going to get a better experience, again assuming that the people in your guild want to play the same way you do.
Last guild I was in, in fact in most guilds, they didn't. They all want to run as fast as they can through the instance, get to the boss, get as much XP as they can and get out. That seems to be the norm these days. I, however, like to be slow, methodical, loot every chest, check every body, pick up everything that gets dropped, even if it isn't the big drops that come off the boss. So I'm checking chests, they're running down the hall as fast as they can. No thanks. I've talked to lots of guildies and they all agree that the chances of me finding a party that takes things slow is somewhere between slim and nil.
Probably the biggest problem with modern grouping is that it's universal. You don't have to actually be at the place you want to go, you just put in a request, people from all over the "world" join the group, it takes everyone 30-45 minutes to get there and get ready and you go do it. By the time everyone is ready, the first people, the ones who were standing in front of the dungeon from the beginning, are bored silly and just want to get it over with. The people who were last were probably already in another group elsewhere, trying to maximize XP, and have to rush from that group to the new group to get going on another boss run with the least down time possible. With the mad rush to endgame, most people only care about gaining levels, not about making friends. And, of course, just because you're friends with someone, as above, doesn't mean you necessarily want to group with them.
Games are never going back to the way they were. They can't. Living in the past, dreaming nostalgically about the way things used to be is pointless. This is the new MMO reality. Either play that way or don't play. I don't see any other way to get around the problems.
Actually they are, full steam ahead!
Look at GW2, they are developing game mechanics that reward group play, and also reward players who help other players, even if your not in the same group. This is proven to build strong communities which in turn make games last longer.
Go read the latest article on Elder Scrolls online, they are also developing game mechanics that reward players for helping other players, and also group play.
This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.
Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.
The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them. If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).
In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.
EvE has it's own problems, like the douchebags that camp the gates in low sec space so they can kill anyone coming through. That's a whole class of people who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.
I would call that a game specific feature not a general problem of it. If you don't like the game giving you "too much freedom", there's a large collection of games that are made for people that prefer to avoid conflicts and/or losses.
Spoiler alert: People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually). The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.
Spoiler alert: People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually). The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.
Spoiler alert: People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually). The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.
As I've been saying for years.
Its partially the games fault, its the mechanics of teh game that decide what players do, to some degree.
But your right about the players in game that screw things up, and thats part of my point, we get soloers all the time going into MMOs that encourage grouping, and then complain, and make the game unpleasant for other players.
In the past we have seen many game devs cave to this pressure, but it is changing, GW2 is a good example. While it is very friendly to the soloer, in the form of DEs and some other stuff, the PvP and dungeons are more group directed. I doubt Anet will stop the development of group content in favor of soloers, just not going to happen.
I would call that a game specific feature not a general problem of it. If you don't like the game giving you "too much freedom", there's a large collection of games that are made for people that prefer to avoid conflicts and/or losses.
I tried to make it short. I hope it isn't too confusing.
I remember this debate on the swtor forums. It boiled down to soloers wanting to obtain the same gear that raiders/wz pvpers can achieve.
People really got into it. There was a lot of hate and rudness put into those posts. I personally was biased to group content because I raided in wow for several years. I said some stupid crap about how soloers should get gear made specific for solo content, raiding gear for raiders, and so on.
I wish I could take it back, because you know what grinds my gears? Gear grinds. I'm so sick of them.
I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world. I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive. One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons.
Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to.
Comments
Its not a weak counter argument, it appears so to you because you don't understand what I said or are ignoring 90% of it. You then go on to make an emotive rant about soloers and how they think when you are obviously not a soloer and so don't know how they think and what their motivations are. Please explain?
A lot of negative points there about your fellow players activities. It's no wonder you prefer to solo if all you see are kill stealers and gold farmers. With the increasing trend toward solo play and opinions like this, I fear for the future of MMO's. They're going to be little more than single player games with chat rooms and protection bubbles so your fellow player can't affect your own little world. Hell, it's already heading that way with TOR with its many instanced areas that nobody can bother you in.
I think the devs of GW2 are making a last ditched effort to keep the soloers and the groupers working towards the same goal. If the experiment doesn't work, the chances of seeing another title being greenlighted that has a large budget will lessen considerably.
At that point, many devs will probably concentrate their efforts on more specialized MMO's that are aimed specifically at a certain target group, like PvP, Raid, Solo, etc. Considering the impasse on threads like this, and many more I've seen like it, it's probably inevitable.
In the meantime, you'd think some company would at least try a solo server in one of their games. The only reason I can think why they haven't is the solo servers would be overcrowded in short time, and the raiders would complain about having nobody to play with.
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I play Eve solo, mostly. Played it like that since 2003.
I like playing solo and doing my own thing. Why do I play Eve instead of, say, X-3 (which I also have played)?
Because the universe provides diverse challenges based on the actions of other players that I in turn have to deal with. It's challenging and engaging gameplay. And in turn, even while I'm playing solo, I'm changing the world around me. Not that I'm averse to people joining in on what I'm doing as long as they want to play nice. And of course in Eve I have the option of blowing them up
I don't like playing in groups much because I deal with jerks too much (guess I'm unlucky). It's also a lot of work if I just want to play casually. But I like other people in the game because that's what ultimately shapes the Eve universe. Solo play like mine is only possible in a game like Eve.
Perhaps this is why I burn out so quickly on WoW clones, come to think of it. I stayed with Eden Eternal for a long time only because I had a guild I liked, but even then I played mostly solo. The world and gameplay in "WoW clones" is shaped by the devs, not by the players, and both solo and group content feels forced, not liquid and organic and evolving.
Eve was my first MMO, and once it dies, it will probably be my last.
How I feel about this issue is the only right way to see it, no compromise should be attempted. MMO's should cater exlusively to my playstyle, polo ralph lauren stores everyone else is an idiot.
This is the thing: some classes in EQ could solo, but even those that could, it was much longer. I personally don't have a problem with a game being soloable to max level, but the problem comes in when it's as easy (time and/or difficulty, pick one) to do so. If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group. That leads to a self-defeating cycle where you can't find a group because there's no significant benefit over soloing, which ultimately takes its toll on the community.
I cut my teeth on Everquest, and I played EQ2 at launch for a few years. EQ2, at launch, was a definite group-first game, but about six months in, mimicked the WoW solo-first (group-agnostic?) model. The difference in the community after a month or two was shocking - populations didn't change, but chat channels were wastelands, other players were a little more brazen about moving in on your camp, and so on.
At the end of the day, it's all well and good to let people solo. Just flatten out the progression and loot curves to compensate.
I agree with most of what you posted except where you say "If soloing is roughly as fast as grouping, people are going to solo, because it removes the element of finding a group.".
In EQ I played an enchanter and a necromancer. As an enchanter I was always able to find groups, I could solo more efficiently with charm and stuns and duoing with a druid was crazy experience compared to grouping. As a necromancer I could easily out level a good group.
So why did I spend most of my enchanter time in groups with good in-game friends and why did I always look forward to those rare (compared to enchanter) necromancer group invites from good in-game friends? Because even though I prefer to solo and it was better experience overall, groups offer a more "fun" time IF you have a good group of in-game friends.
As for comtemporary groups in MMO's, I think people prefer to solo more now because getting a group in the queing system now is like getting a bus just as school gets out, never know what your going to get but you know its going to be annoying and unpleasant in most cases.
You may be right, but to some degree, I think the unpleasantness is partially because of solo-first mentalities. I had my fair share of bad groups in EQ, but I would at least be reasonably sure that everyone I grouped with past level 20 or so was at least familiar with their class role in the group, encounter mechanics (e.g., aggro, mez), and basic etiquitte. The post-school bus theory is definitely true in my experience, but I think a large reason that happens is because when people get to the mid-to-high levels with a minimum of grouping, it's difficult for them to adjust their playstyles.
The corollary to my point - When I played EQ, by the time I was in my mid-20s, I had a pretty solid friends list where I could do a quick online check and find a group if I needed to, or, at least, have a quick chat with someone. Most of these people were folks I never met in real life, but met through grouping. That's probably what kept me playing EQ as long as I did. LOTRO, in which I recently hit level 40, I don't think I've had a meaningful interaction with anyone. Even within group situations, everything is very task-focused, and when the instance is done, everyone more or less says "gg" and bails.
Maybe I'm just viewing the past through rose-colored glasses, but I can't seem to find any kind of game that comes close to recreating the social atmosphere of EQ.
My problem is I can't find anyone worth grouping with. Most people are rude, obnoxious, only looking for a group to use for their own devices, racing through to get to the boss, not caring what anyone else wants. They are selfish and stupid, wanting to rake in as many XP as they can in as short a time as possible before moving on to do something else. They don't care about anyone but themselves and honestly, I don't want to spend a second around most of them anyhow. Yes, there was a time when there were "better people" playing these games, but that was before they went mainstream. In the beginning, most players shared the same niche. They had the same interests and goals. Therefore they formed a single community. Today, there is a variety of interests and goals, it's hard to find people who are similar enough to make a good group.
To be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing either. The genre couldn't have survived if it hadn't gone mainstream. It was a natural progression for a huge number of different types of people to get involved in the genre. Even back in the "old days", I don't think people were all that hot, you still had shallow, stupid, obnoxious people around whose only commentary was telling off-color jokes. Maybe the problem is that most of us grew up and the people we run into who act like they acted back in the old days are people we don't want to be around today.
Even the old-time gamers I see today, I don't want to play with. They're just as bad as anyone else. The old days are gone. Good riddance to them. It's better to have a wide variety of games to play and people to play them with than to have a single type and a shrinking genre.
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I play Everquest 2, mostly, doodle in many others, sometimes.
I am a social gamer, but sometimes I just want to craft something, by myself.
I don't believe in power leveling.
I love the chatting, the killing and the randomness that tossing a bunch of strangers together provides.
I also talk to strangers, but everyone was a stranger before they were a friend!
Life is Short, Read a Book.
Yeah, I can't find any flaw in what you said.
And now I'm sad.
Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system. If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again.
Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you. In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds. Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.
Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating. No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.
They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going
Reputation really doesn't work in modern MMOs, all one has to do is change characters or change servers and their bad reputation vanishes. Since there isn't a single community anymore, that doesn't seem to matter either. There are always groups you can join and, if you wear out your welcome there, just go join a different group. Guilds can be useful in weeding out some of the random grouping, but that works only if you stick within your narrow niche of friends or within your guild. Guilds are very useful for that kind of thing, you have a group of people that you know and, assuming you don't stray outside of that group, you're probably going to get a better experience, again assuming that the people in your guild want to play the same way you do.
Last guild I was in, in fact in most guilds, they didn't. They all want to run as fast as they can through the instance, get to the boss, get as much XP as they can and get out. That seems to be the norm these days. I, however, like to be slow, methodical, loot every chest, check every body, pick up everything that gets dropped, even if it isn't the big drops that come off the boss. So I'm checking chests, they're running down the hall as fast as they can. No thanks. I've talked to lots of guildies and they all agree that the chances of me finding a party that takes things slow is somewhere between slim and nil.
Probably the biggest problem with modern grouping is that it's universal. You don't have to actually be at the place you want to go, you just put in a request, people from all over the "world" join the group, it takes everyone 30-45 minutes to get there and get ready and you go do it. By the time everyone is ready, the first people, the ones who were standing in front of the dungeon from the beginning, are bored silly and just want to get it over with. The people who were last were probably already in another group elsewhere, trying to maximize XP, and have to rush from that group to the new group to get going on another boss run with the least down time possible. With the mad rush to endgame, most people only care about gaining levels, not about making friends. And, of course, just because you're friends with someone, as above, doesn't mean you necessarily want to group with them.
Games are never going back to the way they were. They can't. Living in the past, dreaming nostalgically about the way things used to be is pointless. This is the new MMO reality. Either play that way or don't play. I don't see any other way to get around the problems.
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The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them. If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).
In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.
EvE has it's own problems, like the douchebags that camp the gates in low sec space so they can kill anyone coming through. That's a whole class of people who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.
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Actually they are, full steam ahead!
Look at GW2, they are developing game mechanics that reward group play, and also reward players who help other players, even if your not in the same group. This is proven to build strong communities which in turn make games last longer.
Go read the latest article on Elder Scrolls online, they are also developing game mechanics that reward players for helping other players, and also group play.
This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.
Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.
I would call that a game specific feature not a general problem of it. If you don't like the game giving you "too much freedom", there's a large collection of games that are made for people that prefer to avoid conflicts and/or losses.
Spoiler alert: People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually). The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.
As I've been saying for years.
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Its partially the games fault, its the mechanics of teh game that decide what players do, to some degree.
But your right about the players in game that screw things up, and thats part of my point, we get soloers all the time going into MMOs that encourage grouping, and then complain, and make the game unpleasant for other players.
In the past we have seen many game devs cave to this pressure, but it is changing, GW2 is a good example. While it is very friendly to the soloer, in the form of DEs and some other stuff, the PvP and dungeons are more group directed. I doubt Anet will stop the development of group content in favor of soloers, just not going to happen.
Better luck with the next game.
I entirely avoid PvP.
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I tried to make it short. I hope it isn't too confusing.
I remember this debate on the swtor forums. It boiled down to soloers wanting to obtain the same gear that raiders/wz pvpers can achieve.
People really got into it. There was a lot of hate and rudness put into those posts. I personally was biased to group content because I raided in wow for several years. I said some stupid crap about how soloers should get gear made specific for solo content, raiding gear for raiders, and so on.
I wish I could take it back, because you know what grinds my gears? Gear grinds. I'm so sick of them.
I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world. I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive. One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons.
Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to.