"End Game" is necessary. You spent all this time building your character and want to see what he/she/it can do.
What needs changing, in my opinion, are the choices of activities. I am not a raider. My 8086 processor brain can't keep up Daily Quests are the MOST boring thing ever invented by devs. I don't PvP. I suck at it. Crafting is fun but can get boring at "end game" levels. Sitting in major cities chatting in trade chat is not my idea fun. There are only so many Chuck Norris jokes...
I went for years never reaching "end game" of a MMO. I have alt-itis bad and like to try many different variations for characters. For me, "end game" usually means retirement of my character. I never really wanted to reach that pinnacle.
I am not sure what kinds of activities I'd like to see at "end game", though...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
To me, "endgame" is "metagame", and can be done at just about any time.
If a game lacks that, it's bound to get boring at some point because the only thing to do is rehash scripted content.
I agree with this one.
A game has longevity if it has tons of concepts running at the same time, besides levelling and xp.
The usual MMO is: get max level - to fight bosses - to get better gear - to fight harder bosses - ad nausium.
A Complex MMO is: level - to get money/fame - to get access to better content - to get better gear - to fight bosses - to get more money - to level your crafting - to get better gear - to grind skills and skill level - to fight harder bosses - to unlock your ultimate weapon and weapon skill - to become a god! - metagame metagame metagame
alternatives to clearing hubs/zones exist in some mmos
Yeah, i did read about that opportunity, which will most propbably stay a theoretical option for most players. At least for their mains.
And if crafting is the only metagame-friendly, non-combat feature, thats not enough. In some MMOs crafting even seems to be just a neccessary Must Have; lovelessly implemented. very often i saw, that the devs implemented crafting professions and an auction house, but forgot to implement an economy
I dont know GW2s crafting & economy yet, but crafting alone does not hold a candle.
You can avoid some of the end game stuff by not having level. You have players burning through content fast anyways whats the point in isolating the community with instances and level barriers and etc. You just end up with making the secondary post level grind game with raids and pvp grinds. That's not to mention you get newbie/mid level ghost towns due to the way developers like to funnel the level grind towards new area's. New players are left with a small group of players to play with. Not good for getting people into your game.
It's an especially annoying term for those of us who actually enjoy the journey from 1 to 80 far more than the endgame itself. But it seems a minority of players has to rush to endgame and flaunt that, and justify their efforts by saying it's "the" game, because that's where they get shiny loot or something. Happened to me with WoW and Diablo. Finally, GW2 hears us and leaves endgamers in the dust.
Not sure what the OP wants exactly. For a themepark there are very limited options other then extensive grinds/repeat quests/dungeons. This is because content is expensive to produce and it is consumed (especially by higher level players) quicker then it can be made. The alternative is no goals to work towards which leads to people quitting. PVP is another option.
I am a huge fan of non combat activities especially when the system of advancement is as high as combat is. I was a huge fan of doctors/dancers/musicians/merchants in SWG pre NGE. In fact there was so many goals that felt different enough doing it had a lot of depth to it. I think combat is great but any combat system does get boring after a while and that alternative activities are what adds depth. I mean how different is loot 10 objects that are guarded by 10 guys, versus get drops from 10 guys versus kill 10 of these guys? How different is one dungeon from the next, percentage wise?
I'm tired of games focusing on "end game". What kind of concept is that? Why bother having a beginning or a middle game if "end game" is "where the fun is" as i've heard so many times.
The alternative, it seems (leveling content), is something that people spend 5% of their playing time on. Hence "hail sandboxes, they can save us ohhhhhmmm". Would you like to read our pamphlet?
That's a little wry, intended to be. Examine the alternatives for how you spend your playtime: Alt! Level level level damn this is getting boring. Endgame endgame damn this is getting boring, Craft craft craft damn this is getting boring. Explore explore damn this is getting boring. Build build..yep, you guessed it.
There is not a perfect solution to the phenomena that does not involve playing considerably less. And that one's unacceptable, it seems.
Newgame Newgame damn this started boring, wth, the whole market sucks.
So...another altnerative; Message Board! complain complain damn this is getting boring.
We call it "Cyclic Denial Ongoing Evolution". Every step, beyond the first, generally takes less time. First step, generally, has the best rose-colored memories associated.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
there is a difference between endgame, and end of game. The first is what you do in game past the basic leveling experience. The second is characterized by unsubbing or simply cessation of play. When both of these phenomena happen simultaneously, it's bad.
I think endgame comes from the fact that themepark mmos are just an extention of traditional rpgs, just you play it with tons of other people. If you were to play Final Fantasy 1, you have a story line, leveling, and the final boss after that nothing cause you beat it, well I guess you can play it again if you want. Themepark mmos have a story line, leveling, final boss (until another one is added). So for people to stick with the mmo the developer has to add endgame content to keep its subscriber base. I see nothing wrong with themepark games. I feel they are working as intended. Same with its end game content, they are just 1 type of mmo.
As far as sandbox type games, people are looking for more a pen and paper type game gone virtual. There is no real story line to follow, or if there is one then its not a main feature (I am only saying this with UO in mind). So there isn't any real end game content with sandbox games. Sand box games dont really need it anyway because they have a different approach to keeping its playerbase. Which can be anything from in depth crafting which requires players to depend on the crafters, and crafters to depend on the adventures to supply them. Clan owned cities which brings in seige warfare, player housing so players can play house, dungeon crawling, guild vs guild warefare, and much much more. I know alot of the features in sandbox games are also in themeparks, but they are not the main focus.
User generated content with interactive NPC's would be an option. The focus would be theoretically shifted from player stats and skills to a player's physical actions in-game.
There is still a major issue with npc A.I. which is, they don't have any A.I. just scripts. Making them mostly lifeless, the issue persists with single player RPG's aswell. Once we have little IBM Watson's everywhere then it's a solvable issue? Also, most NPC's do not enhance a players experience, do not add to immersion, they're not smart enough, rather, they act like invisible walls guiding player actions in a predetermined direction.
So... death of endgame is a Virtual World with NPC's that have indistinguishable intelligence from their human counterparts. Since you can't be anyone other than yourself *in or out of game*, you might aswell play the Real Life game lol.
For the most part those campaigning against endgame simply do not play MMOs except in the most casual of defintions. The closest they actually come to playing a MMO is their endless whining posts on these forums. One can argue the reasons why they don't play? is it lack of time or simply because they don't have the attention span, maturity or patience to actually play a MMO? Ironically these same players yelling about the journey are the reason why there no longer is a journey in MMOs because they don't have the patience to play MMOs and they will become bored and quit if the game is to difficult, to time consuming, requires to much thought, is to slow for them or simply becomes boring for a few seconds. Essentially if they become bored they cry and stop playing. These players want no levels, no endgame, no gear, no rewards, nothing except the jump button. So they can ADHD jump their way around their empty dream MMO. Sadly there is no game that will ever appeal to these players. They hype games, play them and suddenly relaize they don't like MMOs, then bash their previous dream game before hyping their new savior game.
I should add, that I do take my time to level. And I do enjoy that experience. But a lot of times it feels like the rest of the community becomes so focused on the end game that your level becomes meaningless. Part of this too is the ease at which levels come now. Older games, a level actually did mean something and you didn't get to max level without some time spent.
Also, devs seem to get lazy about the middle game in the process. They focus on the end game and phone in the middle. I am planning to play TSW and hope this game will offer me a better development process and not make me feel like end game is where i gotta be to play with the cool kids.
For the most part those campaigning against endgame simply do not play MMOs except in the most casual of defintions. The closest they actually come to playing a MMO is their endless whining posts on these forums. One can argue the reasons why they don't play? is it lack of time or simply because they don't have the attention span, maturity or patience to actually play a MMO? Ironically these same players yelling about the journey are the reason why there no longer is a journey in MMOs because they don't have the patience to play MMOs and they will become bored and quit if the game is to difficult, to time consuming, requires to much thought, is to slow for them or simply becomes boring for a few seconds. Essentially if they become bored they cry and stop playing. These players want no levels, no endgame, no gear, no rewards, nothing except the jump button. So they can ADHD jump their way around their empty dream MMO. Sadly there is no game that will ever appeal to these players. They hype games, play them and suddenly relaize they don't like MMOs, then bash their previous dream game before hyping their new savior game.
Maybe for some. But that is so far from true in my case. I think I should clarify that the end game usually ends up being "gear grind" and that never appealed to me much. I am 100% fine with complexity and meta gaming. I think side ways and alternate progression is someting more MMOs need to look into a lot more.
The fact that its not even "Hey I just got a Sword of Lost Hopelessness! Thats so rare and awesome!" anymore, not its just "Ya, I finally got the teir 3 Warrior set". Shows just how bad the end game gear grind has gotten.
Once upon a time, there were games where end game term didnt exist. And people used to play the same game for years, without ever mentioning the 'end game' term. Thats over now tho New mmos focus on 1-80 content, or whatever 'max lvl' might be, just to make all that content irrelevant with 1st update, because you know, anything except 'end game instances' is just a stepping stone to... fun ! and doesnt matter one bit, because end game is where fun starts.
which does sound a bit ridiculous really. So ridiculous that we could make another topic out of it. How many times we have heard ... the 'real' game starts end game. And you can even have fun and join interesting activites, if you reach infamous end game. lol really, it does sound stupid :=)
I could not agree more! 'End-game' is one used and oper-produced lately. What ever happened to leveling concpets like FFXI and Lineage II had them, where after maximum level you could take a subclass and head elsewhere to explore the game? Or like EverQuest II where you can dump XP into 'alternate advancement' and Vanguard where you can toggle XP progression?
Nooo... These days (well, started a while back already but I first heard with Age of Conan of it) players think that they have to hit maximum level ASAP and then get into the threadmill of the same instances day in, day out. And the worst part..? They actually enjoy playing the same freaking instances each day for the coming year till the next update comes out *don't see the fun of it though*
Back to EverQuest II... I know there's an 'end-game' there as well, but I've never really explored anything there or enjoyed the humor that's in the quests. Right now I'm actively playing it and enjoying every step I take. And every step is taken with 90% of my XP dumped into the 'alternate advancement'. After close to 2 days of play time I'm only level 28 now, and am in no hurry to get to 29 or 30 anytime soon. Why..? Because right now I'm walking around in Nektulos Forest and I still have a quarter of it to explore and a lot of quests to do there...
DEATH TO END-GAME - THE ROAD SHOULD BE AS IMPORTANT AS THE DESTINATION
...yeah, old-school pen-n-paper role-player here ;-)
I dont think GW2 and TSW will change the basic issue. Both have a levelling phase, an endgame and a dramatic shift in between.
What happens in GW2 if you did your personal story (which ends already at levl 30 afaik) and if you got all your skills and you saw all the DEs more than once?
GW2 personal story ends at level 30 for beta. It won't end at 30 full release.
End game these days means "after questing phase" and currently questing is quite poorly done:
- moving around area X, mobbossa in in my way I kill it, find a dude with a quest to kill mobbossa - I already killed it, nope doesn't count because I did it without a quest;
- dudex is chilling out in his house but when I talk to him he is apparently in great distress because a horrid horde of undead are trampling the area. I go outside, nope, there is no horrid horde of undeads trampling the land - there is a few standind there without a purpose, rotting all happy.
Those are 2 of the most annoying aspects of questing these days.
Instead of sorting it, developers added something else at max level cap, which generally is more developed, aka raids.
And then the game enters the same silly phase of action rpgs - one spends their time farming/grinding for the most powerfull gear, but once we get it we are so strong the content becomes so easy it isn't fun any more. This would be the end in action rpgs. In mmos they just release a new raid where you play exactly the same (maybe a twist here or there) as the previously raid, but the mobs are so powerfull that what was very powerfull gear becomes weak gear. Rinse and repeat.
NoW, GW2 doesn't have a raid phase - the PvE experience is personal story, dungeons and DEs, so I don't know where the shift phase occurs.
You've done all of that?
Game is finished, go do something else - It isn't as if you are paying a subscription fee or have to pay $15 upfront just to log in when you have a urge to play after being away for some time.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I had this very adventure playing FFXi.In the first years MANY gamers took a VERY long time to hit max level [a full year or longer],but not many cared,we just had fun in groups with real people.Also the design was more about developing your player,so just hitting max level meant nothing,you still had a long way to go to improve your player.I loved the sub class design and the way it was done.I am sure there was some thought put into it based on longevity to keep players around,but i didn't care it worked out great.
I liked the way FFXI did the whole game design.Your level meant almost nothing,sure it was used to give your spells abilities,but if your skills were not kept up to your levels,you were a very weak player.You wanted to advance,you do it with real people [go figure].Other games are designed to linear follow npc quest markers around that give you your loot and xp.That is a design that does not reflect well on a MMO,which should be more about REAL people than QUEST NPC's with markers over their heads.
It makes me VERY unhappy to see the one developer who got it right and understood MMO gaming [Square Enix] has begun to copy the Jones and follow the same design as everyone else.Dailies/instant warps/quest markers ect ect,we did not need more of the same old we need more developers to create their OWN type of game.
I know not everyone thinks a like ,so there will be other great developers with a versatile mind to creativity,we just need to patiently wait.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I dont think GW2 and TSW will change the basic issue. Both have a levelling phase, an endgame and a dramatic shift in between.
What happens in GW2 if you did your personal story (which ends already at levl 30 afaik) and if you got all your skills and you saw all the DEs more than once?
GW2 personal story ends at level 30 for beta. It won't end at 30 full release.
...
NoW, GW2 doesn't have a raid phase - the PvE experience is personal story, dungeons and DEs, so I don't know where the shift phase occurs.
You've done all of that?
Game is finished, go do something else - It isn't as if you are paying a subscription fee or have to pay $15 upfront just to log in when you have a urge to play after being away for some time.
Good to hear, that level 30 is just the beta-limit. But i dont care anyways about this personal story. You are also correct, that GW2 got no raids. I dont care about raids, too.
But i guess, you didnt get my point. I like the DEs so far and i guess its a great new feature we will see in most future MMOs. However, i did not argue about the type of endgame several games may have. My point is, if you run out of story (wether thru Quests or DEs) and/or you run out of skill-progression, you have reached the endgame. Now you will not find new story-content and you cant progress your character anymore via skills. Every game has this point. Here is the shift. Of course i have not done all DEs yet, but i will.
Now in a theme-park the phase starts, where you start repeating tasks: the same dungeons all over again, the same unchangeable pvp-zones (even WvW resets), the same old DEs; over and over again. I call this phase: The Endgame. The only new thing in GW2 about endgame is, that there is no item-progression-treadmill which usually replaces the skill-progression. Progression ends, no story content left and there are no metagame friendly features to keep you busy.
So the game simply ends for people like me, which is fine for a B2P game. And it restarts with a new expansion. Unfortunately i am not looking for an unlasting game. I am not playing games. I am not interested in playing games at all. I am used to live in an endless virtual world called MMORPG.
However, there is a small hope, that Arenanet will bomb us with expansions and DLCs fast enough. It did never work so far, but it could work better with expanding existing DEs, than implementing new quests in the old model. In a few years, DEs in GW2 might have become such complex, that you really got the illusion to live in an endless and always changing virtual world, which is usually just possible with player driven features.
So i strongly disagree with the OP and his statement "Death to endgame". There was always an endgame and there will be an endgame forever. We just see different types of endgame and sometimes you may bypass the levelling phase more or less.
I dont think GW2 and TSW will change the basic issue. Both have a levelling phase, an endgame and a dramatic shift in between.
What happens in GW2 if you did your personal story (which ends already at levl 30 afaik) and if you got all your skills and you saw all the DEs more than once?
GW2 personal story ends at level 30 for beta. It won't end at 30 full release.
...
NoW, GW2 doesn't have a raid phase - the PvE experience is personal story, dungeons and DEs, so I don't know where the shift phase occurs.
You've done all of that?
Game is finished, go do something else - It isn't as if you are paying a subscription fee or have to pay $15 upfront just to log in when you have a urge to play after being away for some time.
Good to hear, that level 30 is just the beta-limit. But i dont care anyways about this personal story. You are also correct, that GW2 got no raids. I dont care about raids, too.
But i guess, you didnt get my point. I like the DEs so far and i guess its a great new feature we will see in most future MMOs. However, i did not argue about the type of endgame several games may have. My point is, if you run out of story (wether thru Quests or DEs) and/or you run out of skill-progression, you have reached the endgame. Now you will not find new story-content and you cant progress your character anymore via skills. Every game has this point. Here is the shift. Of course i have not done all DEs yet, but i will.
Now in a theme-park the phase starts, where you start repeating tasks: the same dungeons all over again, the same unchangeable pvp-zones (even WvW resets), the same old DEs; over and over again. I call this phase: The Endgame. The only new thing in GW2 about endgame is, that there is no item-progression-treadmill which usually replaces the skill-progression. Progression ends, no story content left and there are no metagame friendly features to keep you busy.
So the game simply ends for people like me, which is fine for a B2P game. And it restarts with a new expansion. Unfortunately i am not looking for an unlasting game. I am not playing games. I am not interested in playing games at all. I am used to live in an endless virtual world called MMORPG.
However, there is a small hope, that Arenanet will bomb us with expansions and DLCs fast enough. It did never work so far, but it could work better with expanding existing DEs, than implementing new quests in the old model. In a few years, DEs in GW2 might have become such complex, that you really got the illusion to live in an endless and always changing virtual world, which is usually just possible with player driven features.
So i strongly disagree with the OP and his statement "Death to endgame". There was always an endgame and there will be an endgame forever. We just see different types of endgame and sometimes you may bypass the levelling phase more or less.
Well, Anet commented before several times that they will have a team dedicated on producing new DEs and they will be removing DEs and replacing them with new ones.
Obviously, if you a completitionist you can get all the achievments,all the weapon/armor skins, all the dyes, etc - the good thing, imo, about GW2, is that you don't have to if you don't want to, because it won't restrict your ability to play.
And then there are alts.
Now to your more personal point of wanting a virtual world - as the OP stated "death to the endgame", he didn't say death to the virtualworlds.
What is there in GW2 for more community based?
There is WvWvW and claiming castles, keeps; there is developing the guild, there has been talk of guild halls (I hope so, GH was such a nice feature in GW1), not sure what they have in terms of devoloping your home district.
There will be the economy game - sure, players don't lose their gear, but between buying influence points for your guild (you can buy points with gold, at the rate of 1silver/10 point, by buying drinks for townsfolk to cheer for your guild) and the fact you can buy gems with coin, and those gems allow you to buy stuff from the gem store, you can bet the economy will be important.
And what if you want is a virtual world, certainly isn't raids, that is the associated thing to endame, that will give you that.
A decent chunk of the players interested in GW2, want freedom, want to be independent, they want to play with whom they want, whenever they want, however they want - they don't want to have to go up in some social structure just because that is the only way to do content X, they don't to be "friends" with Schmuck a and Schmuck b just because they are the best tank or are really good at the game.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Comments
"End Game" is necessary. You spent all this time building your character and want to see what he/she/it can do.
What needs changing, in my opinion, are the choices of activities. I am not a raider. My 8086 processor brain can't keep up
Daily Quests are the MOST boring thing ever invented by devs. I don't PvP. I suck at it. Crafting is fun but can get boring at "end game" levels. Sitting in major cities chatting in trade chat is not my idea fun. There are only so many Chuck Norris jokes...
I went for years never reaching "end game" of a MMO. I have alt-itis bad and like to try many different variations for characters. For me, "end game" usually means retirement of my character. I never really wanted to reach that pinnacle.
I am not sure what kinds of activities I'd like to see at "end game", though...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree with this one.
A game has longevity if it has tons of concepts running at the same time, besides levelling and xp.
The usual MMO is: get max level - to fight bosses - to get better gear - to fight harder bosses - ad nausium.
A Complex MMO is: level - to get money/fame - to get access to better content - to get better gear - to fight bosses - to get more money - to level your crafting - to get better gear - to grind skills and skill level - to fight harder bosses - to unlock your ultimate weapon and weapon skill - to become a god! - metagame metagame metagame
Or maybe I was describing FFXI again
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
Yeah, i did read about that opportunity, which will most propbably stay a theoretical option for most players. At least for their mains.
And if crafting is the only metagame-friendly, non-combat feature, thats not enough. In some MMOs crafting even seems to be just a neccessary Must Have; lovelessly implemented. very often i saw, that the devs implemented crafting professions and an auction house, but forgot to implement an economy
I dont know GW2s crafting & economy yet, but crafting alone does not hold a candle.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
You can avoid some of the end game stuff by not having level. You have players burning through content fast anyways whats the point in isolating the community with instances and level barriers and etc. You just end up with making the secondary post level grind game with raids and pvp grinds. That's not to mention you get newbie/mid level ghost towns due to the way developers like to funnel the level grind towards new area's. New players are left with a small group of players to play with. Not good for getting people into your game.
It's an especially annoying term for those of us who actually enjoy the journey from 1 to 80 far more than the endgame itself. But it seems a minority of players has to rush to endgame and flaunt that, and justify their efforts by saying it's "the" game, because that's where they get shiny loot or something. Happened to me with WoW and Diablo. Finally, GW2 hears us and leaves endgamers in the dust.
Not sure what the OP wants exactly. For a themepark there are very limited options other then extensive grinds/repeat quests/dungeons. This is because content is expensive to produce and it is consumed (especially by higher level players) quicker then it can be made. The alternative is no goals to work towards which leads to people quitting. PVP is another option.
I am a huge fan of non combat activities especially when the system of advancement is as high as combat is. I was a huge fan of doctors/dancers/musicians/merchants in SWG pre NGE. In fact there was so many goals that felt different enough doing it had a lot of depth to it. I think combat is great but any combat system does get boring after a while and that alternative activities are what adds depth. I mean how different is loot 10 objects that are guarded by 10 guys, versus get drops from 10 guys versus kill 10 of these guys? How different is one dungeon from the next, percentage wise?
The alternative, it seems (leveling content), is something that people spend 5% of their playing time on. Hence "hail sandboxes, they can save us ohhhhhmmm". Would you like to read our pamphlet?
That's a little wry, intended to be. Examine the alternatives for how you spend your playtime: Alt! Level level level damn this is getting boring. Endgame endgame damn this is getting boring, Craft craft craft damn this is getting boring. Explore explore damn this is getting boring. Build build..yep, you guessed it.
There is not a perfect solution to the phenomena that does not involve playing considerably less. And that one's unacceptable, it seems.
Newgame Newgame damn this started boring, wth, the whole market sucks.
So...another altnerative; Message Board! complain complain damn this is getting boring.
We call it "Cyclic Denial Ongoing Evolution". Every step, beyond the first, generally takes less time. First step, generally, has the best rose-colored memories associated.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
there is a difference between endgame, and end of game. The first is what you do in game past the basic leveling experience. The second is characterized by unsubbing or simply cessation of play. When both of these phenomena happen simultaneously, it's bad.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I think endgame comes from the fact that themepark mmos are just an extention of traditional rpgs, just you play it with tons of other people. If you were to play Final Fantasy 1, you have a story line, leveling, and the final boss after that nothing cause you beat it, well I guess you can play it again if you want. Themepark mmos have a story line, leveling, final boss (until another one is added). So for people to stick with the mmo the developer has to add endgame content to keep its subscriber base. I see nothing wrong with themepark games. I feel they are working as intended. Same with its end game content, they are just 1 type of mmo.
As far as sandbox type games, people are looking for more a pen and paper type game gone virtual. There is no real story line to follow, or if there is one then its not a main feature (I am only saying this with UO in mind). So there isn't any real end game content with sandbox games. Sand box games dont really need it anyway because they have a different approach to keeping its playerbase. Which can be anything from in depth crafting which requires players to depend on the crafters, and crafters to depend on the adventures to supply them. Clan owned cities which brings in seige warfare, player housing so players can play house, dungeon crawling, guild vs guild warefare, and much much more. I know alot of the features in sandbox games are also in themeparks, but they are not the main focus.
There will always be an endgame in MMOs.
Even in a game like Eve there are endgames. ONly difference is that you have many
endgames to choose from so it gives you less of a "OMG IM TRAPPED!!!" feeling.
I think the key it to give people more options. Currently Raiding for dungeon tokens and Farming pvp points is as far as endgame goes.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
User generated content with interactive NPC's would be an option. The focus would be theoretically shifted from player stats and skills to a player's physical actions in-game.
There is still a major issue with npc A.I. which is, they don't have any A.I. just scripts. Making them mostly lifeless, the issue persists with single player RPG's aswell. Once we have little IBM Watson's everywhere then it's a solvable issue? Also, most NPC's do not enhance a players experience, do not add to immersion, they're not smart enough, rather, they act like invisible walls guiding player actions in a predetermined direction.
So... death of endgame is a Virtual World with NPC's that have indistinguishable intelligence from their human counterparts. Since you can't be anyone other than yourself *in or out of game*, you might aswell play the Real Life game lol.
For the most part those campaigning against endgame simply do not play MMOs except in the most casual of defintions. The closest they actually come to playing a MMO is their endless whining posts on these forums. One can argue the reasons why they don't play? is it lack of time or simply because they don't have the attention span, maturity or patience to actually play a MMO? Ironically these same players yelling about the journey are the reason why there no longer is a journey in MMOs because they don't have the patience to play MMOs and they will become bored and quit if the game is to difficult, to time consuming, requires to much thought, is to slow for them or simply becomes boring for a few seconds. Essentially if they become bored they cry and stop playing. These players want no levels, no endgame, no gear, no rewards, nothing except the jump button. So they can ADHD jump their way around their empty dream MMO. Sadly there is no game that will ever appeal to these players. They hype games, play them and suddenly relaize they don't like MMOs, then bash their previous dream game before hyping their new savior game.
thats why ill play archeage once its released
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
I should add, that I do take my time to level. And I do enjoy that experience. But a lot of times it feels like the rest of the community becomes so focused on the end game that your level becomes meaningless. Part of this too is the ease at which levels come now. Older games, a level actually did mean something and you didn't get to max level without some time spent.
Also, devs seem to get lazy about the middle game in the process. They focus on the end game and phone in the middle. I am planning to play TSW and hope this game will offer me a better development process and not make me feel like end game is where i gotta be to play with the cool kids.
Maybe for some. But that is so far from true in my case. I think I should clarify that the end game usually ends up being "gear grind" and that never appealed to me much. I am 100% fine with complexity and meta gaming. I think side ways and alternate progression is someting more MMOs need to look into a lot more.
The fact that its not even "Hey I just got a Sword of Lost Hopelessness! Thats so rare and awesome!" anymore, not its just "Ya, I finally got the teir 3 Warrior set". Shows just how bad the end game gear grind has gotten.
I could not agree more! 'End-game' is one used and oper-produced lately. What ever happened to leveling concpets like FFXI and Lineage II had them, where after maximum level you could take a subclass and head elsewhere to explore the game? Or like EverQuest II where you can dump XP into 'alternate advancement' and Vanguard where you can toggle XP progression?
Nooo... These days (well, started a while back already but I first heard with Age of Conan of it) players think that they have to hit maximum level ASAP and then get into the threadmill of the same instances day in, day out. And the worst part..? They actually enjoy playing the same freaking instances each day for the coming year till the next update comes out *don't see the fun of it though*
Back to EverQuest II... I know there's an 'end-game' there as well, but I've never really explored anything there or enjoyed the humor that's in the quests. Right now I'm actively playing it and enjoying every step I take. And every step is taken with 90% of my XP dumped into the 'alternate advancement'. After close to 2 days of play time I'm only level 28 now, and am in no hurry to get to 29 or 30 anytime soon. Why..? Because right now I'm walking around in Nektulos Forest and I still have a quarter of it to explore and a lot of quests to do there...
DEATH TO END-GAME - THE ROAD SHOULD BE AS IMPORTANT AS THE DESTINATION
...yeah, old-school pen-n-paper role-player here ;-)
The only one that's REALLY on my waiting list as well...
Indeed.
Death to story-mode! to subcriptions! and to prolific combat gameplay!
This.
GW2 personal story ends at level 30 for beta. It won't end at 30 full release.
End game these days means "after questing phase" and currently questing is quite poorly done:
- moving around area X, mobbossa in in my way I kill it, find a dude with a quest to kill mobbossa - I already killed it, nope doesn't count because I did it without a quest;
- dudex is chilling out in his house but when I talk to him he is apparently in great distress because a horrid horde of undead are trampling the area. I go outside, nope, there is no horrid horde of undeads trampling the land - there is a few standind there without a purpose, rotting all happy.
Those are 2 of the most annoying aspects of questing these days.
Instead of sorting it, developers added something else at max level cap, which generally is more developed, aka raids.
And then the game enters the same silly phase of action rpgs - one spends their time farming/grinding for the most powerfull gear, but once we get it we are so strong the content becomes so easy it isn't fun any more. This would be the end in action rpgs. In mmos they just release a new raid where you play exactly the same (maybe a twist here or there) as the previously raid, but the mobs are so powerfull that what was very powerfull gear becomes weak gear. Rinse and repeat.
NoW, GW2 doesn't have a raid phase - the PvE experience is personal story, dungeons and DEs, so I don't know where the shift phase occurs.
You've done all of that?
Game is finished, go do something else - It isn't as if you are paying a subscription fee or have to pay $15 upfront just to log in when you have a urge to play after being away for some time.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
@ the OP...
I had this very adventure playing FFXi.In the first years MANY gamers took a VERY long time to hit max level [a full year or longer],but not many cared,we just had fun in groups with real people.Also the design was more about developing your player,so just hitting max level meant nothing,you still had a long way to go to improve your player.I loved the sub class design and the way it was done.I am sure there was some thought put into it based on longevity to keep players around,but i didn't care it worked out great.
I liked the way FFXI did the whole game design.Your level meant almost nothing,sure it was used to give your spells abilities,but if your skills were not kept up to your levels,you were a very weak player.You wanted to advance,you do it with real people [go figure].Other games are designed to linear follow npc quest markers around that give you your loot and xp.That is a design that does not reflect well on a MMO,which should be more about REAL people than QUEST NPC's with markers over their heads.
It makes me VERY unhappy to see the one developer who got it right and understood MMO gaming [Square Enix] has begun to copy the Jones and follow the same design as everyone else.Dailies/instant warps/quest markers ect ect,we did not need more of the same old we need more developers to create their OWN type of game.
I know not everyone thinks a like ,so there will be other great developers with a versatile mind to creativity,we just need to patiently wait.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Good to hear, that level 30 is just the beta-limit. But i dont care anyways about this personal story. You are also correct, that GW2 got no raids. I dont care about raids, too.
But i guess, you didnt get my point. I like the DEs so far and i guess its a great new feature we will see in most future MMOs. However, i did not argue about the type of endgame several games may have. My point is, if you run out of story (wether thru Quests or DEs) and/or you run out of skill-progression, you have reached the endgame. Now you will not find new story-content and you cant progress your character anymore via skills. Every game has this point. Here is the shift. Of course i have not done all DEs yet, but i will.
Now in a theme-park the phase starts, where you start repeating tasks: the same dungeons all over again, the same unchangeable pvp-zones (even WvW resets), the same old DEs; over and over again. I call this phase: The Endgame. The only new thing in GW2 about endgame is, that there is no item-progression-treadmill which usually replaces the skill-progression. Progression ends, no story content left and there are no metagame friendly features to keep you busy.
So the game simply ends for people like me, which is fine for a B2P game. And it restarts with a new expansion. Unfortunately i am not looking for an unlasting game. I am not playing games. I am not interested in playing games at all. I am used to live in an endless virtual world called MMORPG.
However, there is a small hope, that Arenanet will bomb us with expansions and DLCs fast enough. It did never work so far, but it could work better with expanding existing DEs, than implementing new quests in the old model. In a few years, DEs in GW2 might have become such complex, that you really got the illusion to live in an endless and always changing virtual world, which is usually just possible with player driven features.
So i strongly disagree with the OP and his statement "Death to endgame". There was always an endgame and there will be an endgame forever. We just see different types of endgame and sometimes you may bypass the levelling phase more or less.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Well, Anet commented before several times that they will have a team dedicated on producing new DEs and they will be removing DEs and replacing them with new ones.
Obviously, if you a completitionist you can get all the achievments,all the weapon/armor skins, all the dyes, etc - the good thing, imo, about GW2, is that you don't have to if you don't want to, because it won't restrict your ability to play.
And then there are alts.
Now to your more personal point of wanting a virtual world - as the OP stated "death to the endgame", he didn't say death to the virtualworlds.
What is there in GW2 for more community based?
There is WvWvW and claiming castles, keeps; there is developing the guild, there has been talk of guild halls (I hope so, GH was such a nice feature in GW1), not sure what they have in terms of devoloping your home district.
There will be the economy game - sure, players don't lose their gear, but between buying influence points for your guild (you can buy points with gold, at the rate of 1silver/10 point, by buying drinks for townsfolk to cheer for your guild) and the fact you can buy gems with coin, and those gems allow you to buy stuff from the gem store, you can bet the economy will be important.
And what if you want is a virtual world, certainly isn't raids, that is the associated thing to endame, that will give you that.
A decent chunk of the players interested in GW2, want freedom, want to be independent, they want to play with whom they want, whenever they want, however they want - they don't want to have to go up in some social structure just because that is the only way to do content X, they don't to be "friends" with Schmuck a and Schmuck b just because they are the best tank or are really good at the game.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders