Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Relationship between fantasy mmorpgs and modern-shooter rpgs?
PyroMan52134
Member Posts: 47
So given the rise of class-based shooter mmo's such as team fortress, valkyria chronicles, star wars battlefront 3, borderlands 2, battlefield 3, etc.., I've been wondering about how such classes correspond to the classes in class-based fantasy mmorpgs. Given the basic classes, rogues, warriors, healers/clerics, and mages, how do they correspond to the classes in shooter mmorpgs?
For example in valkyria chronicles, I see how healers, rogues, and warriors fit in, but where do mages fit in? In team fortress 2, it's obvious the healer is the medic. The infantry, spies, demoman,.... all fit in within the rogue/warrior classes. But where do the mages fit in? The engineers?
This raises the question of what exactly defines the mage class rather than simply magic? Are there are other things that define such a class? We can label it as squishy and dps class, but at the same time, so are rogues?
So what class in class-based shooter games correspond with mage classes?
What do you guys think?
Comments
Sniper. High damage and squishy.
Also your comparison is way off. There is no relation between MMO classes from fantasy MMORPGs and shooter classes.
You name Battlefield 3 as an example. Their classes are based on the same idea since Battlefield 1942 from 2002. Shooters grew into the classes, just like they did with reloading (with quake as an exception).
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Wouldn't archers also share more similarity with snipers?
Yeah, but your specific question was where to put mages. Basically you're asking how I can fit mages in todays army. I think they're in their tents rambling about stuff nobody believes...
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
mage would be a Engineer in a Army war game.
think about it. The Mage is master of different magic schools, such as conjuring, which is similar to a Engineer building a device to do something, rather than summoning/conjuring the device with magic.
also the Mage uses timed spells they throw out. Reminds me of a Bomb that a engineer can build, or a grenade.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
is the closest thing to mages engineers/scientists? are there any others?
To me, there are really two ideas here: "class" is about asthetics while "role" is about game theory.
To me, a mage asthetically is about complexity: lots of options, lots of utility, long learning curve. But inevitably, utility grows in power as people learn how to min-max it, so most games balance mages by giving them big drawbacks (eg: squishy). This tends to push them into a dps role.
But you could easily create an all-mage game by just filling all roles with different schools of magic. A priest/druid is often just a mage with a healing-related focus to their spells, the typical glass cannon wizard is like an dps archer or alpha-strike sniper, an enchanter might have a very rogue-like role laying traps, etc.
Would you say that mages are just rogues but deal magic damage rather than physical damage? It seems that way to me.
but aside from aesthetics, aren't typical warriors and rogues more than just the appearance. I mean, you can't possibly have a mage with heavy armor. While they can conjure heavy armor to shield themselves from damage, they just aren't trained to fight. As for rogues, mages aren't trained in stealth nor speechcraft. While they can make this up with magic, it isn't really the same.
And why can't a mage be trained to fight? Or to wear heavy armor? Snap out of the mindset being given to balance stuff out and think about it. A warrior can walk around in cloth if he so desires, as can a mage in plate armor. There's no reason for it to be impossible, but maybe cloth is more comfortable. Although... if I were a mage on a battlefield I'd grab the nearest plate armor.
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
well then why have classes at all? the point of classes is to give different roles which would balance out the game. If you're just gonna have the mage be both physically fit and capable of using magic, it's a action-adventure game with a single protagonist not a rpg.
aren't those just hybrids?
spellswords, paladins, dark knights.
but like I said, they won't excel at both. warriors would deal more physical damage than paladins and mages would deal more magic damage.
It really took 80 threads to finally ask 'what is the point of classes'? (Hello again Ishida...)
The purpose of classes varies from game system to game system. In some cases, the classes are separated for aesthetic reasons. A warrior, for example, would be expected to fight with weapons that require physical strength to wield. You'd find warriors wielding axes, swords, and perhaps bows, probably not daggers or crossbows which could be wielded effectively by a weak person. This is a case where gameplay doesn't matter. There's usually no gameplay reason why a whole category of weapons should be restricted to this class or that class other than to enforce the feel that the designers are going for. In fact, even though the game mechanics in some systems reflect the class divisions (for examples, Warriors get a lot of STR and greatswords deal bonus damage based on STR, while Rogues get a lot of DEX and daggers deal bonus damage based on DEX), there are still plenty of games where the mechanics don't reinforce the roles at all. Warriors only use greatswords because that's all they can use, Rogues only use daggers because that's all they can use.
In most cases, however, classes are used to separate characters into different roles that are possible within that specific game. In such a game, the lines dividing the classes have nothing to do with aesthetic. This is why it is sometimes impossible to make a translation from classes in one game to classes in another game.
For example, I'll use the concept of a Mage in League of Legends. In LoL, a Mage is a champion who benefits from high Ability Power and can deal a large amount of magic damage in a short time through the use of abilities rather than autoattacks. It has nothing to do with robes, staffs, mana (which almost all champions use), intelligence, or memorizing spells; these are not the defining traits of Mages in LoL. In fact, a good number of Mage champions use abilities that are all obviously technological!
1. Different classes can represent UIs and different mechanics (different resources to manage, different styles of play, different degrees of complexity to play)
2. Lore. If you are telling a story and there are certain archetypes/subcultures/schools, classes make sense.
3. Fast identification and avoiding the paradox of choice: classless systems can leave some people floundering in the sea of options, especially when new to a game.
4. Define, seperate and balance the archetypes: classless games, for all their variety, tend to collapse around a small number of ideal templates anyway when push comes to shove. If your game is competitive (whether PvP or PvE), you end up having a few correct choices and a lot of suboptimal choices. Although there's certainly fun in theorycraft, it leads to people having to choose between power and roleplaying (I don't care if camping skill does nothing useful, my character is a ranger in the wilds - he can't not spend skill points on it).
(disclaimer: I actually do prefer classless systems myself)
Only class based shooter mmo there is, is planetside (soon to be planetside and planetside 2.). But answering your question, warrior Tanks while more offensive warrior classes are generic assault classess, healers are support characters, rogues are stealth and any class with a shotgun, archers are obviously snipers, and mages are c-130's.
I'm not just talking about mmo. There are plenty of class-based shooters like battlefield, borderlands. Team fortress 2 is a class-based shooter mmo......
and disdena, hi I missed you too.
in league of legends, I disagree with how thye classify stuff. They classify kennen as a mage, when he can be a rogue just as much. As for heimerdinger and ziggs, they're just the typical engineer class. While they can be mages, they can also be rogues as well with a lot of gadgets.The only difference between rogues and engineer type of mage is that rogues know how to use the gadgets, but they don't create them. They know enough as to how to use the gadgets.
I see that classes differ from game to game and how each developer has their own division line. But can a rogue or warrior ever be defined purely by roles? Can a developer ever call a mage class in one game a warrior in another? I doubt they generally do that because it would confuse the common mmorpg player.
In most mmorpgs, I've played, mages are basically the glass cannon, similar to the rogue, but lacks some attributes such as stealth and speed. If a developer were to merge them together, and say, call a class that merges rogues and mages together and just call that class rogue based on the fact that they are all glass cannons and confining everything to that role. That would confuse most players because when they choose the rogue class they don't expect a guy shooting fireballs.
See, what you're doing is completely ignoring gameplay in order to choose classes based on appearance. Ziggs an engineer? Seriously? Are we going to call Teemo a druid next because he plants mushrooms? Or perhaps he is an engineer when you use his Astronaut skin and he places satellite dishes instead. There is nothing even vaguely engineer-like about Ziggs. If I described him to you without ever explaining that the graphics for his abilities are all bombs, you'd call him anything but an engineer.
If you are honestly going to assign classes based on appearance alone, then how can there possibly be a correlation between fantasy games and Team Fortress and Star Wars? Nobody in those games carries poisoned daggers or holy symbols. They don't look even remotely like any fantasy class at all.
I was referring to those in the second sentence but I was making a point. I never got to be a snob on this site so I might as well be once. But yeah, there is kind of a relationship between classes and roles in both of these games but it isn't really simple to connect them. Well it isn't simple to connect them in my opinion but personally I think the whole skill tree and how classes do multiple things in mmorpg's and regular rpg's sometimes makes this difficult. Still a connection could be made.
genius, cuz it sometimes is based on appearance. there's a difference between a guy like ziggs throwing bombs around and him just using knives and daggers dancing around and throwing them at people. In what way is a guy running around throwing knives without using telekinesis a mage. How is a guy throwing bombs in any way a mage? You're basing that simply off the fact that they deal massive damage and use ability power.
If you think about it, it's definitely possible for a guy in real life to be like ziggs throwing bombs and traps. What mages do is not possible in real life, and what is, they're still researchign into it.
As for heimerdinger, I don't see how he's not an engineer. He's described as a scientist/engineer. I agree that he is more of a mage because he actaully creates his own technology. As for ziggs, based on the context of the lore, he is also a mage because he creates them.
But if it weren't for the lore, the possibility of them being rogues is always out there. We can always assume that they weren't the ones who created it. A rogue can always be someone who just dispatches a turret or bomb traps or throws a bomb half way across the map because he knows how to use his wide arsenal of gadgets.
The reason that they are mages aren't because of gameplay, might as well call a warrior guy a mage just because some riot developer got high and gave them more advantage with ability power. What's more, builds in league of legends are extremely versatile. For example, I've heard of people running a dps janna build. So what, we call her a rogue/warrior just because she can do really high damage?
The division of classes, imo, is based on the lore, if it is available, the skills and stats, and believe it or not, the aesthetics of the class also play a significant role. However, you can't just rely on stats in games like league of legends where any build is viable, and there's not one or a few ways of building a character.
and also, why would c-130's be mages?
If you look at the jet just as a class itself, it seems more like a rogue. able to maneuver quickly, travel fast, squishy, and hits hard too
A c-130 isn't a jet. I say c-130 because mages have the area of effect speels, or high damage spells and whatnot while AC-130's have a variety of weapons loaded.
but so can rogues do area of effect damage and high damage attacks. the only difference is that they do physical damage instead.
and also, roles are present in almost every mmorpg with the concept of the holy trinity. It's just that not every class always subdivides their classes according to roles. King of Kings 3 does that with 3 classes.
However, it's not even possible to separate the typical rogue and mage classes then sine they both play the same role, squishy dps. If you're not gonna go with aesthetics such as stealth and speed and daggers and bows and arrows, there's no way to separate rogues and mages.
League of legends is one of the mmorpgs that doesn't do this as it labels mage characters as assassins as well.
So what is the correlation between team fortress calsses and fantasy rpg classes.
in fact, league of legends doesn't even have classes. they name characters purely based on their roles. it's obvious that they don't have classes as they're like 5 labels for each character anyways ranging from tank to carry to mage.
and the definitions of warrior and rogues are static and constant throughout the genre. A rogue doesn't have to define a guy using daggers and bows and arrows. they typically correlate them with such weapons because they are easily concealable and hidden weapons. This could correspond with snipers and spies in class-based shooters as well. It's just that the aesthetics of a rogue with daggers and bow and arrows is common throughout the fantasy rpg genre.
your argument with league of legends doesn't even make sense. obviously heimerdinger and ziggs are mages because they are the present-day engineers who make their own weapons. what else can you classify them as? League of legends doesn't even have classes, they don't classify with names like warriors and rogues. they use terms like carry, tank, fighter, which are terms for roles, not classes.
any ideas
any ideas?
I still find it odd you try to make a link between something modern day and high fantasy. Asking who the modern day dwarves and elves are is about just as weird...
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...