ALL mmorpg's that have servers in diffrent locations - company make it clear to it's clients so they can choose server closest to them for best experience if they want to.
If there are really some servers in EU and some in USA and Fucnom haven't informed players about which servers are located where - then it is ridiculosely bad service.
Given how the technology Funcom uses for TSW works they didn't need to implicitly inform anyone about that. All dimensions are connected and in the end which dimension one chooses only matters for Fusang as it's persistent.
In fact they could run servers an the US, europe and even somewhere else and just put players in an instance running in a server farm close to the player. This would also explain wastly different pings players from nearly the same location. Determining a players location may not work 100% accurate (yet).
They should in fact have informed PvP focused players if different dimensions Fusang zones are running in specific region server farms, so players would have known on which dimension they should start for that. But then it is absolutely possible that they are monitoring from which region a given Fusang instance is connected to the most and then move that instance to the server farm of that region.
Originally posted by EvilGeekShouldn't we be doing a ping test to the server location (my understanding is that it's the East coast of America)Local ping resultsTo the East coast:Which puts it closer to the range of me getting 90-100ms in game
See? Now we are changing the subject. Wasnt the problem with crappy isp-s? Who is to blame that the (all) servers are located in USA?
Not changing the subject at all. Yes it would have been better to have a closer server but as they are using a single server technology what would you suggest? Have it in the EU and upset the rest of the world? I'm not saying the single server was a good idea, it's obvious we would have better performance if there was an EU server too. I'm just not seeing any effect on performance in game, very few people are and I'm seeing no complaints over on the official forums.
You do realize that this is very subjective? The fact remains that some have this problem. I think I will leave to you the speculation of the exact number but just a question: What is the percent of player base that posts on forums. Again I am not stating that I know the exact number of people having latency issues only that there are problems.
i gotta admit this thread makes me lol... living in australia i've always and i mean always in MMO's had a latency of at least 180ms and it has never rendered me useless in any PvP situation - WoW, GW1, aion, AoC, Rift, Tera, etc... i've always been able to at least compensate and do well to exceptional in PvP.. all i hear is people complaining that they're getting roflstomped and need a scapegoat... over 300ms starts to be a disafvatage.. but honestly.. anything under 200 is more then playable and competetive.. playing the secret world now i was stomping people in PvP all day... just sayin
edit - latency in TSW for me is about 230 - 250ms how do i know this
Originally posted by n3v3rriv3r Originally posted by EvilGeekOriginally posted by n3v3rriv3rOriginally posted by EvilGeekShouldn't we be doing a ping test to the server location (my understanding is that it's the East coast of America)Local ping resultsTo the East coast:Which puts it closer to the range of me getting 90-100ms in game
See? Now we are changing the subject. Wasnt the problem with crappy isp-s? Who is to blame that the (all) servers are located in USA? Not changing the subject at all. Yes it would have been better to have a closer server but as they are using a single server technology what would you suggest? Have it in the EU and upset the rest of the world? I'm not saying the single server was a good idea, it's obvious we would have better performance if there was an EU server too. I'm just not seeing any effect on performance in game, very few people are and I'm seeing no complaints over on the official forums.You do realize that this is very subjective? The fact remains that some have this problem. I think I will leave to you the speculation of the exact number but just a question: What is the percent of player base that posts on forums. Again I am not stating that I know the exact number of people having latency issues only that there are problems.
There are problems for sure and I am not trying to say there aren't for some people, I just think the title of this thread needs a better perspective, as an EU player I don't feel I'm being shafted at all, going by the lack of consistent and numerous complaints on the issue I would say it is a very small minority (I'm not discounting their complaints at all).
Forums are where people come to post complaints, if we saw more complaints I would acknowledge it's a bigger problem than it looks at the moment. Sorry it affects your gaming experience.
Yes it's nice that some Europeans don't feel a difference between a good latency and one that's above 150 in PvP, or that they're happy to pay a higher subscription price than US players or EU players in every other MMO, or also that their maintenance schedule will obviously conflict with EU playing times, like it is right now, 9-13 GMT on a Sunday.
For me though, and quite clearly others in the thread as well, all that does make me feel shafted.
Originally posted by Rysha Yes it's nice that some Europeans don't feel a difference between a good latency and one that's above 150 in PvP, or that they're happy to pay a higher subscription price than US players or EU players in every other MMO, or also that their maintenance schedule will obviously conflict with EU playing times, like it is right now, 9-13 GMT on a Sunday.For me though, and quite clearly others in the thread as well, all that does make me feel shafted.
Just a quick look at your profile and you are down as being based in the US?
This is the future of mmorpg gaming. There will be fewer region specific and permanent server homes. Sharding is the future EvE was ahead of its time and developers are playing catch up. Having said all that yes of course I do wish they added a European server farm.
Considering though I have played many mmos on US servers, like city of heroes and I was willing to put up with the maintenance times and some bad latency now and then. I am willing to put up with it here.
The good thing about the servers being in america is that there are I think less hops through different network regions to the server. This has caused me problems in the past, I remember wow once having months of issues through telnet or something.
Players have to decide if this is a game breaker for them, so far for me it isn't. I will not lecture folks but economies of scale also play a massive part in this you can do the math in the knowledge that funcom launched this as a niche game not an epic wow clone with gusto and trumpets.
I am grateful for what it is trying to achieve and am likely to stick with it for that reason.
Haha, the subscription fee for the UK is £12.99. This MMO is more expensive than any MMO before it. It is a P2P which charges an extra £4 a month, they have a cash shop and in-game advertisements.
The sub fee is 44% higher than any other MMO. No thanks!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Haha, the subscription fee for the UK is £12.99. This MMO is more expensive than any MMO before it. It is a P2P which charges an extra £4 a month, they have a cash shop and in-game advertisements.
The sub fee is 44% higher than any other MMO. No thanks!
This is wrong!
The fee monthly was lowered by funcom. If you pay in £ its 11.50. Also you can pay in dollars then its lower. There are no ingame advertisements unless you are one of those who think the T-Shirt promotion by mmorpg.com is an advert "sigh".
Haha, the subscription fee for the UK is £12.99. This MMO is more expensive than any MMO before it. It is a P2P which charges an extra £4 a month, they have a cash shop and in-game advertisements.
The sub fee is 44% higher than any other MMO. No thanks!
This is wrong!
The fee monthly was lowered by funcom. If you pay in £ its 11.50. Also you can pay in dollars then its lower. There are no ingame advertisements unless you are one of those who think the T-Shirt promotion by mmorpg.com is an advert "sigh".
If you can pay in dollars, that's fine. 11.50 pounds is still a lot more than what other MMOs charge (8.99).
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Haha, the subscription fee for the UK is £12.99. This MMO is more expensive than any MMO before it. It is a P2P which charges an extra £4 a month, they have a cash shop and in-game advertisements.
The sub fee is 44% higher than any other MMO. No thanks!
This is wrong!
The fee monthly was lowered by funcom. If you pay in £ its 11.50. Also you can pay in dollars then its lower. There are no ingame advertisements unless you are one of those who think the T-Shirt promotion by mmorpg.com is an advert "sigh".
If you can pay in dollars, that's fine. 11.50 pounds is still a lot more than what other MMOs charge (8.99).
2.50 pounds more is not that much. Now if i was forced to pay 20 euros like in Anarchy Online, then i would be complaining.
The retail price alone puts me off. $50 or €50, they really are running this old scam still. The whole thing just smells too much of EA policy to me. 10 years ago I fell for it, but now there are lots of games to choose from, so this one won't get my money.
The retail price alone puts me off. $50 or €50, they really are running this old scam still. The whole thing just smells too much of EA policy to me. 10 years ago I fell for it, but now there are lots of games to choose from, so this one won't get my money.
It's nothing new for FC, they have done it for decade...
Still could be worse, they could go with AO's pricing 17.19€ per single month... Now that is a rip-off.
So, I tried PVP at Fusang yesterday, ping was floating between 128-160 ms, which seems to be my normal range. I had my trusty QL1 Pistol, and setting my foot in PVP for the first time. So, was my ass handed to me by the Illuminati, yes it was, on quite a few occassions actually. Was it because of my latency, no I don't think so. They were just better at moving as a group, in a one on one, which happened on occassion, I was actually able to do some damage.
I finished all my quests, got a few tokens, and also quite a few SP and AP, so all in all I must say it was quite a successful adventure. Going into PVP with gfx on Ultra was a bad idea however, and that caused me some pain in the mass brawls. It all became much smoother when I turned down the video options.
So OP, I am sorry I cannot agree with you on a latency of 158 making PVP unplayable.
It's sort of like another whinger that I noticed in GC yesterday, crying his head of screaming to all that would hear, "I cannot believe Funcom actually released this game in this horrid unplayable state." Strange I thought, my fanboy senses tingling, I thought this version of the game was pretty smooth. So I asked him in a tell, what are you having issues with? I have this horrible choppiness and they've released with a total lack of tools, he/she replied. Hmm, what settings are you running the game at, asked I? Ultra, he/she said. Ohh, said I, you might want to turn down the details a bit, I don't think you have a card that is able to run this game on Ultra, I said. F*** you, he said... Oh, and the missing tools, when pressed on that he mentioned the character generator, pffft.
And now you are bringing in box prices and the cost of subscription not being adjusted according to which currency you use. Come on people, this is common practice, I am not saying it's fair, but it is not like Funcom is the big operator behind setting prices. They are a small company, they follow the lead from the big boys, and they adjust the prices to what they think the market will pay. In Norway, a normal conversion from US dollar prices to NOK (norwegian kroner), is usally multiply by ten and you get the price of the product in a norwegian store. The actual conversion rate is somewhere between 5 or 6 so talk about getting the short end of the stick. Why do they do this? Because they can, and it makes sense, because the customer is willing to pay the price for convenience sake. Nothing is stopping them from importing the goods from the US themselves, but almost no one bothers because it's a hassle.
I agree with the aussie that lol'ed, I lived in Oz for three years, playing AO over a dial up modem, THAT was a a crap connection. I feel your pain, man.
I still dont get the qq on latency on this site. In every other MMO there have been massive critizism on that EU players cannot play with their friends in the US etc. Now finally Funcom delivers on this and then according to quite a few manages to pull the PVP off (in a PVE centric game) and still there is this massive thread on MMORPG on people that want to go back to the EU/US server split.
Originally posted by BishopB:
Are a lot of the trolls just angry kids with old gaming hardware?
So, I tried PVP at Fusang yesterday, ping was floating between 128-160 ms, which seems to be my normal range. I had my trusty QL1 Pistol, and setting my foot in PVP for the first time. So, was my ass handed to me by the Illuminati, yes it was, on quite a few occassions actually. Was it because of my latency, no I don't think so. They were just better at moving as a group, in a one on one, which happened on occassion, I was actually able to do some damage.
I finished all my quests, got a few tokens, and also quite a few SP and AP, so all in all I must say it was quite a successful adventure. Going into PVP with gfx on Ultra was a bad idea however, and that caused me some pain in the mass brawls. It all became much smoother when I turned down the video options.
So OP, I am sorry I cannot agree with you on a latency of 158 making PVP unplayable.
It's sort of like another whinger that I noticed in GC yesterday, crying his head of screaming to all that would hear, "I cannot believe Funcom actually released this game in this horrid unplayable state." Strange I thought, my fanboy senses tingling, I thought this version of the game was pretty smooth. So I asked him in a tell, what are you having issues with? I have this horrible choppiness and they've released with a total lack of tools, he/she replied. Hmm, what settings are you running the game at, asked I? Ultra, he/she said. Ohh, said I, you might want to turn down the details a bit, I don't think you have a card that is able to run this game on Ultra, I said. F*** you, he said... Oh, and the missing tools, when pressed on that he mentioned the character generator, pffft.
And now you are bringing in box prices and the cost of subscription not being adjusted according to which currency you use. Come on people, this is common practice, I am not saying it's fair, but it is not like Funcom is the big operator behind setting prices. They are a small company, they follow the lead from the big boys, and they adjust the prices to what they think the market will pay. In Norway, a normal conversion from US dollar prices to NOK (norwegian kroner), is usally multiply by ten and you get the price of the product in a norwegian store. The actual conversion rate is somewhere between 5 or 6 so talk about getting the short end of the stick. Why do they do this? Because they can, and it makes sense, because the customer is willing to pay the price for convenience sake. Nothing is stopping them from importing the goods from the US themselves, but almost no one bothers because it's a hassle.
I agree with the aussie that lol'ed, I lived in Oz for three years, playing AO over a dial up modem, THAT was a a crap connection. I feel your pain, man.
Cheers,
Conlai "Darkmoor" MacGregor
the funny thing is i dont even have pain with my latency.... i jumped into fusang today had all 3 quests done in about 15min and then ran around with the groups just PvPing for fun for another hour and a half and i'm also lucky enough to be able to run fusang in ultra .. at no point did i feel handycapped by a high latency... infact at no point was it an issue for me at all... 1 on 1 i could own people, big battles i could hold my own... hell i critted some guy for like 3.8k was basically an insta kill 1 on 1 with my trusty QL4 weapon... i honestly believe "latency" unless it is extreme and close to or more then a second of actual latency are you handycapped and it's a pathetic excuse for people who cant compensate and NEED something to complain about
Not had any issues in PVP so far and im based in the UK...
This is not an fps so a ping of 150ms wont really make a differece..
So no we are not getting shafted they wanted to find the best place to locate the servers and as latency is not that big of a deal in a tab target MMO...
Europe doesn't consist of Atlantic ocean coastline countries only. Sure if you are one of those countries, you are bound to have half way decent connection to the US East Coast. If you are not one of those countries, you're getting shafted, royally.
From Italy I got 175 ping to the fastest East Coast pingtest.net server. Thats the fastest thats ever going to get. Normally I get 220+ ping from EC servers (overhead and all that).
I played some of the beta and I thought the game was interesting, but seriously, 200+ ping is barely playable. Thats only when there are no lag spikes mind you. Even on proper EU servers that I get 30-40ms ping, during lag spikes it goes up to 150-200ms, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. If the base latency is 200ms on this game, when the occasional lag spike occurs, its going up to as high as 500-600ms, thats half a second delay at minimum.
Its playable for target based MMO's, but even then, its not even remotely enjoyable. Only explanation I got for this, is that they got better deal from US server companies and didn't want to spend extra cash on dedicated EU servers. Thats depressing, because combining that with in game cash shop, pre order cash shop and jacked up EU prices, I'd say they are trying to get as much cash as they possibly can from the launch period.
Comments
I can understand why the few ppl who seem to have the prob are upset but i do not see the problem here.
Most MMOs have this probelms nothing new really
Given how the technology Funcom uses for TSW works they didn't need to implicitly inform anyone about that. All dimensions are connected and in the end which dimension one chooses only matters for Fusang as it's persistent.
In fact they could run servers an the US, europe and even somewhere else and just put players in an instance running in a server farm close to the player. This would also explain wastly different pings players from nearly the same location. Determining a players location may not work 100% accurate (yet).
They should in fact have informed PvP focused players if different dimensions Fusang zones are running in specific region server farms, so players would have known on which dimension they should start for that. But then it is absolutely possible that they are monitoring from which region a given Fusang instance is connected to the most and then move that instance to the server farm of that region.
You do realize that this is very subjective? The fact remains that some have this problem. I think I will leave to you the speculation of the exact number but just a question: What is the percent of player base that posts on forums. Again I am not stating that I know the exact number of people having latency issues only that there are problems.
i gotta admit this thread makes me lol... living in australia i've always and i mean always in MMO's had a latency of at least 180ms and it has never rendered me useless in any PvP situation - WoW, GW1, aion, AoC, Rift, Tera, etc... i've always been able to at least compensate and do well to exceptional in PvP.. all i hear is people complaining that they're getting roflstomped and need a scapegoat... over 300ms starts to be a disafvatage.. but honestly.. anything under 200 is more then playable and competetive.. playing the secret world now i was stomping people in PvP all day... just sayin
edit - latency in TSW for me is about 230 - 250ms how do i know this
/setoption latency_window 1
Not changing the subject at all. Yes it would have been better to have a closer server but as they are using a single server technology what would you suggest? Have it in the EU and upset the rest of the world? I'm not saying the single server was a good idea, it's obvious we would have better performance if there was an EU server too. I'm just not seeing any effect on performance in game, very few people are and I'm seeing no complaints over on the official forums.
You do realize that this is very subjective? The fact remains that some have this problem. I think I will leave to you the speculation of the exact number but just a question: What is the percent of player base that posts on forums. Again I am not stating that I know the exact number of people having latency issues only that there are problems.
There are problems for sure and I am not trying to say there aren't for some people, I just think the title of this thread needs a better perspective, as an EU player I don't feel I'm being shafted at all, going by the lack of consistent and numerous complaints on the issue I would say it is a very small minority (I'm not discounting their complaints at all).
Forums are where people come to post complaints, if we saw more complaints I would acknowledge it's a bigger problem than it looks at the moment. Sorry it affects your gaming experience.
Yes it's nice that some Europeans don't feel a difference between a good latency and one that's above 150 in PvP, or that they're happy to pay a higher subscription price than US players or EU players in every other MMO, or also that their maintenance schedule will obviously conflict with EU playing times, like it is right now, 9-13 GMT on a Sunday.
For me though, and quite clearly others in the thread as well, all that does make me feel shafted.
Just a quick look at your profile and you are down as being based in the US?
This is the future of mmorpg gaming. There will be fewer region specific and permanent server homes. Sharding is the future EvE was ahead of its time and developers are playing catch up. Having said all that yes of course I do wish they added a European server farm.
Considering though I have played many mmos on US servers, like city of heroes and I was willing to put up with the maintenance times and some bad latency now and then. I am willing to put up with it here.
The good thing about the servers being in america is that there are I think less hops through different network regions to the server. This has caused me problems in the past, I remember wow once having months of issues through telnet or something.
Players have to decide if this is a game breaker for them, so far for me it isn't. I will not lecture folks but economies of scale also play a massive part in this you can do the math in the knowledge that funcom launched this as a niche game not an epic wow clone with gusto and trumpets.
I am grateful for what it is trying to achieve and am likely to stick with it for that reason.
Haha, the subscription fee for the UK is £12.99. This MMO is more expensive than any MMO before it. It is a P2P which charges an extra £4 a month, they have a cash shop and in-game advertisements.
The sub fee is 44% higher than any other MMO. No thanks!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
This is wrong!
The fee monthly was lowered by funcom. If you pay in £ its 11.50. Also you can pay in dollars then its lower. There are no ingame advertisements unless you are one of those who think the T-Shirt promotion by mmorpg.com is an advert "sigh".
If you can pay in dollars, that's fine. 11.50 pounds is still a lot more than what other MMOs charge (8.99).
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
2.50 pounds more is not that much. Now if i was forced to pay 20 euros like in Anarchy Online, then i would be complaining.
The retail price alone puts me off. $50 or €50, they really are running this old scam still. The whole thing just smells too much of EA policy to me. 10 years ago I fell for it, but now there are lots of games to choose from, so this one won't get my money.
Edited first post to remind some points and ty for re-opening this.
Wow another PING Post..
'm on the East Coast US and played WOW for years (West Coast Servers); usually with PING somewhere near 180..
If you are getting 200 or more, I could see a point but under that doesn't make much differerence...
Funcom has mentioned they were getting PING of like 80 from Norway...
I hardly think they set out to "screw" Europe....
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
It's nothing new for FC, they have done it for decade...
Still could be worse, they could go with AO's pricing 17.19€ per single month... Now that is a rip-off.
Is the scam charging for your game? Well, you're missing out!
Yeah but you get free health care along with that great latency so it is not all bad :P
So, I tried PVP at Fusang yesterday, ping was floating between 128-160 ms, which seems to be my normal range. I had my trusty QL1 Pistol, and setting my foot in PVP for the first time. So, was my ass handed to me by the Illuminati, yes it was, on quite a few occassions actually. Was it because of my latency, no I don't think so. They were just better at moving as a group, in a one on one, which happened on occassion, I was actually able to do some damage.
I finished all my quests, got a few tokens, and also quite a few SP and AP, so all in all I must say it was quite a successful adventure. Going into PVP with gfx on Ultra was a bad idea however, and that caused me some pain in the mass brawls. It all became much smoother when I turned down the video options.
So OP, I am sorry I cannot agree with you on a latency of 158 making PVP unplayable.
It's sort of like another whinger that I noticed in GC yesterday, crying his head of screaming to all that would hear, "I cannot believe Funcom actually released this game in this horrid unplayable state." Strange I thought, my fanboy senses tingling, I thought this version of the game was pretty smooth. So I asked him in a tell, what are you having issues with? I have this horrible choppiness and they've released with a total lack of tools, he/she replied. Hmm, what settings are you running the game at, asked I? Ultra, he/she said. Ohh, said I, you might want to turn down the details a bit, I don't think you have a card that is able to run this game on Ultra, I said. F*** you, he said... Oh, and the missing tools, when pressed on that he mentioned the character generator, pffft.
And now you are bringing in box prices and the cost of subscription not being adjusted according to which currency you use. Come on people, this is common practice, I am not saying it's fair, but it is not like Funcom is the big operator behind setting prices. They are a small company, they follow the lead from the big boys, and they adjust the prices to what they think the market will pay. In Norway, a normal conversion from US dollar prices to NOK (norwegian kroner), is usally multiply by ten and you get the price of the product in a norwegian store. The actual conversion rate is somewhere between 5 or 6 so talk about getting the short end of the stick. Why do they do this? Because they can, and it makes sense, because the customer is willing to pay the price for convenience sake. Nothing is stopping them from importing the goods from the US themselves, but almost no one bothers because it's a hassle.
I agree with the aussie that lol'ed, I lived in Oz for three years, playing AO over a dial up modem, THAT was a a crap connection. I feel your pain, man.
Cheers,
Conlai "Darkmoor" MacGregor
I still dont get the qq on latency on this site. In every other MMO there have been massive critizism on that EU players cannot play with their friends in the US etc. Now finally Funcom delivers on this and then according to quite a few manages to pull the PVP off (in a PVE centric game) and still there is this massive thread on MMORPG on people that want to go back to the EU/US server split.
Originally posted by BishopB:
Are a lot of the trolls just angry kids with old gaming hardware?
simple answer why everything costs more in europe
its on an edge of destruction. so food, taxes everything have to go up in order to bring more money to countries.
sad but true and off topicly i sure wish my country would leave this union and go back to its own form ;p
So your distance to WoW servers is 4 000 kilometers or less? Europeans have a distance of 5 000 - 8 000 kilometers to AoC servers.
the funny thing is i dont even have pain with my latency.... i jumped into fusang today had all 3 quests done in about 15min and then ran around with the groups just PvPing for fun for another hour and a half and i'm also lucky enough to be able to run fusang in ultra
.. at no point did i feel handycapped by a high latency... infact at no point was it an issue for me at all... 1 on 1 i could own people, big battles i could hold my own... hell i critted some guy for like 3.8k was basically an insta kill 1 on 1 with my trusty QL4 weapon... i honestly believe "latency" unless it is extreme and close to or more then a second of actual latency are you handycapped and it's a pathetic excuse for people who cant compensate and NEED something to complain about
Not had any issues in PVP so far and im based in the UK...
This is not an fps so a ping of 150ms wont really make a differece..
So no we are not getting shafted they wanted to find the best place to locate the servers and as latency is not that big of a deal in a tab target MMO...
Europe doesn't consist of Atlantic ocean coastline countries only. Sure if you are one of those countries, you are bound to have half way decent connection to the US East Coast. If you are not one of those countries, you're getting shafted, royally.
From Italy I got 175 ping to the fastest East Coast pingtest.net server. Thats the fastest thats ever going to get. Normally I get 220+ ping from EC servers (overhead and all that).
I played some of the beta and I thought the game was interesting, but seriously, 200+ ping is barely playable. Thats only when there are no lag spikes mind you. Even on proper EU servers that I get 30-40ms ping, during lag spikes it goes up to 150-200ms, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. If the base latency is 200ms on this game, when the occasional lag spike occurs, its going up to as high as 500-600ms, thats half a second delay at minimum.
Its playable for target based MMO's, but even then, its not even remotely enjoyable. Only explanation I got for this, is that they got better deal from US server companies and didn't want to spend extra cash on dedicated EU servers. Thats depressing, because combining that with in game cash shop, pre order cash shop and jacked up EU prices, I'd say they are trying to get as much cash as they possibly can from the launch period.
This does not bode well for Funcom.