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YOU are the Hero (not the other thousand guys you see)
ZenonSeth
Member Posts: 128
aka, Why I don't like regular quests in other games and, to some extent, personal stories in GW2.
So, in a lot of MMOs, including the original GW, the focus of almost every quest is that YOU (or your present group) go and save the world from some badass evil. Not the thousands of others playing, no. You. I always thought the idea of the player as The Hero, and massivly multiplayer didn't mix too well. In fact, I think of these as totally contradictory to each other. Just doesn't work well. It's one of the reasons I generally stay away from MMOs.
GW2's DE system is something different in that respect. You get to play along others in an event where you are actually, canonically, suppose to fight along side other players, and it's not just "you" that defeated the big evil comin' to take over town. That's great!
Ah, but then we have personal stories. Ok, ignoring the initial instance/cutscene that each race gets (I mean, as an introductory concept, that can be forgiven), the personal stories take palce in entirely instanced areas. Everything you do is suppose to be one of a kind, but you know that there's a good hundred or so other people who are going through the exact same events, also being told they were the only ones. Hell, I even helped a friend of mine on his own personal story, and while different, he met with some of the same characters who, having a few minutes ago called me a hero, now totally ignored me.
Yeah, sure, I realize that it's pretty impossible (perhaps, just hard to imagine) a non-instanced personal story, where your decisions affect everyone else in the world. But I thought that was what GW2 was going for, right? They did a bang up job with DEs, making things more cooperative, and kill sharing. But the Personal stories just don't seem to do any of that. And what was that recent post? If you can't do something well, don't do it at all. Yeah, I know it's kinda harsh, but it's their goals.
I'm not saying that personal stories aren't fun, or entertaining to some degree. I'm just saying that in a dynamic world where things are actually suppose to change, instanced missions, and entire instanced areas of the city, don't quite fit in. Yeah, they're not going to change the personal stories after having put so much work into them, but I'm entitled to my rant once in a while!
Comments
I always thought that having any storyline in an MMO was absurd. Make a world with the tools to create your own stories and adventures, and you don't have to mess with all the "hero" nonsense.
If you want a world that revolves around you, play a single player game because you will NEVER get that in an MMO, where every other player's experience is as important as your own. No one is going to be willing to spend the entirety of their game as a bit player in the saga of you.
Hard to believe this is even rant-worthy.
You misunderstood - I wasn't saying that I think MMOs should have a world that revolves around me - quite the opposite, I think that a player-centric world has little to no place in MMOs. Which is why DEs are good, yet personal stories don't work for me.
I agree with you. To me, "personall" stories are anything but, however, you can ignore the PS. So, no problem IMO.
I do understand your point of view. I do think Personal Stories are the weakest point of GW2 for me. But, even then, it not enough to bother me very much.
What's wrong about them? They are too limiting, and usually go in a direction I don't want to. Having more choices and relying less on the 'good x bad dichotomy' would alleviate this problem for me. Choosing a bolder storyline that is net contered on heroes only, but on several different walks of life would also promote a more 'organic' feel to the world.
Just give me the spvp and i ll be happy
I understand your point but I really think it comes down to time and money, it would be incredibly dificult to have everyones 'idividual' stories affect the world in a meaningful way, beyond what DE's do. One of the gripes people had with SWTOR perosnal stories is that everyone was having the same experince with the same companions ( within your class ) - but to stray from that - would be costly.
Luckily in GW2 personal stories are such a small piece of the pie it doens't matter. You can leave it out and there is still a lot to do.
There are times where I prefer personal story driven content and times where I want to be with the masses out in the wild. The story content in most games is usually the best way to experience the lore and there are still plenty of us out there that are into that stuff.
MMOs try to cater for a number of different tastes at once.. every player likes different things. Choices and more options for things to do is never a bad thing in these games.
sidepoint -- Guild Wars didnt choose that focus until the 3rd campaign Nightfall
prior to that, NPCs were the heroes and players were sidekicks
EQ2 fan sites
Agree with OP.
Personal Storyline isn't bad, but it's not that great either for various reasons. I hope we'll get more "world stories" including dialogues in the future.
Hype train -> Reality
So when everyone is cheering you, praising you and forming a parade for you to walk through at the end of each campaign it's not because the player is the hero?
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
I guess DOOM, Sonic, Mario, EQ, WoW, virtually all RPGs/FPS/RTS/games are carebear then, because they make the player a hero then too?
I don't think reputation is a thing that has lost value in video games in recent years. I think that its on a game by game thing, but it all boils down to the fact that, whether the player is a sidekick or main hero, they are ALMOST always just that: hero. Robin is loved, maybe not as much as Batman, but he is still a hero. GW1 players were the sidekick at first, and they built their reputation finally becoming full-fledged heroes. GW2 the players are not the main heroes either...they ARE the sidekicks (even if NPCs in the GW2 world call you heroes). The heroes in GW2 are Destiny's Edge. They are the ones guiding the story--we are just heroic sidekicks helping out the veteran sidekicks. And maybe after a while we will become true heroes like we did in GW1 (and like the player does in so many other games).
(PS. if you want to be a regular joe, just dont play video games, because you get the regular joe experience from real life :P Also, Zeno Clash is a good game to play if you dont like the whole hero thing--plus its a pretty epic indie game
)
I get where you're coming from, perhaps in the big picture. But when I had to chose between saving an orphanage or a hospital, and found out that apparently I'm the only compitent one in the entire city (only the place you chose gets saved), I started feeling like maybe I AM the hero here. Or if not, I'm certainly the number one errand boy that everyone uses in the entire effin city!
GW1 Prophecies also had this going on, sort of. You'd get to do some minor tasks first, then accompany the prince as he runs away, but even if you were technically playing 2nd fiddle to these other guys, you STILL did most of the work. By the end, you were going through stuff that apparently no one else had gone through in a long time, making you, more or less, The Hero.
Besides, it's not just about that, it's about the fact that whatever you do, most games try to tell you you're unique, yet many thousands of others go through the same stuff (Everyone's Unique... waaaait a second...)
Like I said, the DEs are a great solution to this, making you feel like a hero, yet not The Hero.
The personal storylines sort of go back to the old ways. I realize this counts as nitpicking, but come on, the fact that people are resorting to nitpicking means there's only small things in the game they aren't happy with. And yes, I'll probably just ignore the personal stories (mostly)
Personarry, I don't care as rong as I'm having fun.
Single player, multiplayer, I usually make my own stories regardless. That's why I didn't know what the hell was going on in GW1 until I read the movement of the world. "What? You say sorrow's furnace had the tome of Rubicon and it had prophecies in it? You don't say!" - Me about 3 years ago.
This is not a game.
I agree/understand what you say, and agree with most of it--it still all boils down to virtually all games (especially RPGs and MMORPGs) naming the player or a small group of players as the heroes in some way. Then again, the hero concept is also a staple of almost every human culture. Even things such as communism and group communities have given their creators hero-worship (or something close to it in which they praise them). So with MMOs its always kind of weird when you are the sole person (its worse when you are in a group of human players and the other players are overlooked in the cutscene, even though they are standing right next to you). So I try to just think of the personal storyline as I do a play, with willing suspension of disbelief.
The thing that makes me really love the way Anet handled them though is this: you, as a player can ignore the personal story COMPLETELY and still progress in the game if you really want to
Not many games allow for that.
You are right, while done right, the story itself is to cliche, espescially the low level stuff i played.
However I am one of those players that loves how the personal story adds depth to your character (despite the many cliche parts of it) and would not want to miss it.
My immersion works pretty well from this, i am following my main story through the world and all these adventures (DE) happen while i am on the road. I love being the hero or the villain in a story, it takes my toughts away from the real world.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I enjoy personal stories in MMOs but I really don't care for the you are the HERO ones which most MMOs seem to push. It just doesn't fit within the game at all and obviously doesn't make much sense. In a SRPG yea it's great but really in a MMO there's no place for you are the "one" stuff.. I sort of like how TSW did it where everyone is "special" but no single person is the " sole savior" or "the one".
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
i believe personal stories should be in MMOs. Not as the main questline but as something that is pushing you forward and lets you know to change zone and so on.
i dont want another quest hub game where the quest barely means anything... just pick up all, complete them and return them and then repeat. the option ANET has gone for seems pretty good to me.
i will do the personal story because iam 100% sure that some reward at the end will be pretty bad ass looking and only accessible via the PS only, so no1 else would get it unless they do the full personal story.
i have no idea if its true but i think we may see it like this,
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
I agree with you OP.
That is another reason why a lot of older generation of players still cling to memories of SWG, Ultima Online or DAoC.
In those games, you are not a hero, but a regular schmole who were given the power to be good at whatever you want. There are people who became renown not in fighting but selling best weapons/armor on the server, there are people who trades with both sides, and might also be guilds who are known not because they are best at killing, but because the run a very powerful business (cornered the market) and busy player towns.
Sorry, but you can´t make a MMORPG the same way you make a CORPG or a single player game.
It just ain´t possible, at best you could let something in your personal story effect the world for a short time, like maximum one hour (and even that is probably too much).
MMOs allow you to be a hero, but not the. It is just one of the limits of the genre. If you want more than that you need to play a CORPG or even better, a single player game.
Focus on economy have not been a priority for a time, no. But there are reasons for that as well (http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03/06/how-i-helped-destroy-star-wars-galaxies/), making a good game economical model is really hard and many people try to manipulate the system and have in the past more or less ruined the games for many players.
I would love to see a MMO that actually had someone competent in real world economics that made the crafting and economical mechanics. It could be very interesting.
Now almost all games have an inflation that are similar to Germany in the roaring 20s because in MMOs you get money for nothing besides time and there is no real limit to how much money you can get besides how long time it takes you to get it.
In the real world there is a limited amount of money and you need someone to spend money for you to get them, unless you are a private gold miner and it is really hard to live on that. For many reasons it is hard to make an economy in a game that are similar to that.
It would be interesting to try though, I have been giving it some thoughts myself but GW2 is focused on other stuff and you have to live with that or play something else.
I never seen a MMO with a good economical system and I have been playing since M59.
Actually interesting that you've mentioned inflation, because in SWG before they introduced so many of those attachments that stop items from decaying, player economy was one of the healthiest aspects of SWG as a game.
Perm decay on items and loot resources only (not items) was a good idea - it ensures continuous production is required, provided cash dump and remove saturation of items from market.
Of course no many mmos does that anymore, unfortunately
Sorry to be off-track, but at the end of the day of course game economy has also a lot to do with player-storyline and feeling of immersion - because you can't really feel immersed to be honest when you and the guy next to you got the exact same item from the same heroic quest (which makes one wonder, how many exact same items does this person keep in store and how many times do he need help with the same dragon? lol :P )
The whole MMO economy is indeed very interesting and deserves it´s own thread. SWG did some things right but also many things wrong (did you read the link I posted?).
I agree that the way rare items are made really doesn´t work to make things feel personal in most MMOs.
But if you want to discuss economy, create it´s own thread instead of discussing it in the GW2 forum, at best it is off topic here.