As long males see women as sex objects and also not as equals you will always have this behavior by majority of males young or mature in RL or online im affraid, thats at moment a fact of live.
Unless we change the whole tradition and culture we will keep seeing this for next couple of hundred years we humans are still very child like race not matured enough give it time and hopefully we solve this MAJOR problem MEN vs WOMEN that there EQUAL.
It will prolly take another couple of hundred years before women are truely equal to men. Women themslefs are also to blame but thats another discussion not relevant here right now.
You hope that one day men will be chemically castrated so they aren't attracted to women?
As long males see women as sex objects and also not as equals you will always have this behavior by majority of males young or mature in RL or online im affraid, thats at moment a fact of live.
Unless we change the whole tradition and culture we will keep seeing this for next couple of hundred years we humans are still very child like race not matured enough give it time and hopefully we solve this MAJOR problem MEN vs WOMEN that there EQUAL.
It will prolly take another couple of hundred years before women are truely equal to men. Women themslefs are also to blame but thats another discussion not relevant here right now.
We respect female Tigers well enough, we're not like "Oh hey, it's just a female Tiger throw a bra at it."
Besides, dismissing any part of the argument throws the whole argument out the window including women's contribution to the issue.
I say, women and men are not equal because men and men are not equal. No one is equal or we'd all be identical clones or asgard from SG1. Not to say we shouldn't all be civil to eachother but equality is a stretch. People have different skillsets and levels of intelligence or physical strength, whatever the measuring stick is and some people are on either end of the spectrum. Though what someone IS and what they are capabale of are 2 different things but what's to be said is that some people don't deserve respect... for whatever reason.
Until neural cybernetics are the standard I wouldn't even bother to separate humans from the animal kingdom and we've all seen national geographic on Tv.
Thats exactly right, we are not equal, never have been and never will be.
Something that needs to be said more, is tha fact that these people who act sexist or homophobic, do it to everybody. If we keep talking about just one side of the coin, then this silly debate will never end.
This subject should not be men vs women, but instead people vs bad people. There will always be bad people, men and women alike. I have seen a lot of bad behavior from guys, name calling and general hostility. I have seen a lot of manipulative behavior from gals, creating drama in guilds and starting a lot of fights.
The best way to deal with them, is to ban together, good vs evil.
Hmmm, I've read everything in the thread so far and while I appreciate the OP's concern for his sister, I honestly feel that hiding your gender in-game is a personal choice, and it'll depend on the personality of the individual player.
For those who are inured to the internet, with years of experience - good, bad and indifferent - the idiocy spewed on fatuglyorslutty.com is met with an eyeroll and a sigh. Nothing more. The stuff thrown at Anita Sarkeesian and Jennifer Hepler earlier this year was in a league of its own. What the guys perpetrating this crap don't seem to grok is how terribad it makes THEM look. It does give me pause, sometimes, to think there are men out there who think that way - but, as a woman, if I think too hard about stuff like that I'd get nervous about leaving the house. So I file them away in the G.I.F.T. category and try to forget it. I've never hidden my gender online, but I take reasonable precautions to protect my identity.
Have I had experiences in games that made me uncomfortable? A couple. There was the guy that sang to me in vent...every time I logged on. There are the "white knights" who want to "help" me do everything (they just p**s me off - I can play the darn game perfectly fine without your help, mister!) and the a/s/l idiots (I just lie...55/m/Indianapois...and they go away).
When I started playing online games I viewed all of this as a sort of anthropological experiment. I've played male characters, and it's true that you do get treated a bit differently. There's a whole set of other judgements in play, and largely I'm cool with those - but it's interesting that male characters are rated on gear and prowess and female characters are rated on some nebulous scale of how likely they are to be female IRL and then how likely they are to be (a) hot and (b) up for some cyber if paid enough attention or given enough shinies.
Idk where the latter came from but it's an interesting juxtaposition when you have a guy here posting about how he enjoys posing as a woman to reap the rewards. I know the stereotype must have come from somewhere (I've encountered some female players who make me want to /facepalm - I'm being honest here) but guys can be as dramatic and loot-whorish as girls - and they're often "needier" (sulking because no-one want to speed run them/help with their boss/give them stuff). It's all down to the individual - gender simply isn't enough to go on.
It's the easiest thing to throw at someone, that's all. If the woman you're lobbing insults at hasn't yet developed the thick skin that the internet demands, then it could be hurtful. I don't know (and really don't want to think about) whether those a$$hats are trying to do this or just typing before thinking - or building up their own e-peen by demeaning another player. Most times, they're looking for a reaction, and if they don't get one, they go annoy someone else. Bullies will be bullies, and women are not the only targets. If women all hide behind male avatars and avoid vent etc. then we're letting the bullies win, and adding fuel to the "there are no women on the internets" fallacy.
And I'm going to stop typing now because this is loooooong - sorry!
I've never been in a game where a female even bothered to hide the fact she's a girl. Most come right out with it without even being asked, usually during conversations that are a weak lead-in to revealing it. If anything, I notice that the most people identifying their RL gender are the females, and seemingly to garner some kind of preferential treatment in chat - perhaps to have people be nicer to them, or just watch what they say, but they really do tend to use it like an asset.
For every dude that plays a femchar and is asked in global about his gender in RL, there is usually 1-2 females chiming in with "I'm really a girl!"... or perhaps, just some really convincing trolls, but I'm more convinced that it's the truth most of the time. Mannerisms and all that.
~So I really don't get where the OP is coming from with the idea that they hide the fact.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I've never been in a game where a female even bothered to hide the fact she's a girl. Most come right out with it without even being asked, usually during conversations that are a weak lead-in to revealing it. If anything, I notice that the most people identifying their RL gender are the females, and seemingly to garner some kind of preferential treatment in chat - perhaps to have people be nicer to them, or just watch what they say, but they really do tend to use it like an asset.
For every dude that plays a femchar and is asked in global about his gender in RL, there is usually 1-2 females chiming in with "I'm really a girl!"... or perhaps, just some really convincing trolls, but I'm more convinced that it's the truth most of the time. Mannerisms and all that.
~So I really don't get where the OP is coming from with the idea that they hide the fact.
^This
I've never heard of what the OP is talking about either.
You should ask yourself why to guys feel the need to play female characters instead of male characters. Maybe some guys have something to hide ? I don't see any difference in the point you are trying to make here. BTW if I was female I would hide form you freaks everyday if I could.
You should ask yourself why to guys feel the need to play female characters instead of male characters. Maybe some guys have something to hide ? I don't see any difference in the point you are trying to make here. BTW if I was female I would hide form you freaks everyday if I could.
If you still have to ask this, after years and years of arguments over it, then you're beating a dead horse for the sake of trying to hear your own voice.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
You should ask yourself why to guys feel the need to play female characters instead of male characters. Maybe some guys have something to hide ? I don't see any difference in the point you are trying to make here. BTW if I was female I would hide form you freaks everyday if I could.
If you still have to ask this, after years and years of arguments over it, then you're beating a dead horse for the sake of trying to hear your own voice.
I think you post too much and like reading what you wrote because you need something to do to pass the time by. How do you like those apples ?
You should ask yourself why to guys feel the need to play female characters instead of male characters. Maybe some guys have something to hide ? I don't see any difference in the point you are trying to make here. BTW if I was female I would hide form you freaks everyday if I could.
If you still have to ask this, after years and years of arguments over it, then you're beating a dead horse for the sake of trying to hear your own voice.
I think you post too much and like reading what you wrote because you need something to do to pass the time by. How do you like those apples ?
I only post to give helpful advice, or tear down stupid accusations.
~and there is far bigger ratio of stupid accusations to requests for help.
(granted, I'm prone to making stupid ones too occasionally - though, the whole men playing as women thing is obvious = libido)
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I'd like to challenge any Guild/Clan/Group that currently exist to openly discourage such behavior even if said members "don't know any better". Specifically, my younger sister currently plays WoW & has to deal with a mentally handicapped member who sticks to her like glue constantly, and gets physically upset on the guild ventrilo (thereby completely embarassing her) when she's not playing with said member. Seriously, I'm all for treating handicapped people with a little less restrictiveness, but that would anger me to the point of yelling should it ever occur in my current guild. If she had hidden her identity as a female it could have all been avoided, however she would have lost out of the ability to truly express herself for who she is thereby demeaning her experience as a whole....and that's the ENTIRE problem!
Am I simply rambling here because I'm a little loopy from Monday-Morning Work, or is anyone else feeling the same way :I?
TLDR;
I'm pissed off because the current paradigm is that it's ok for Woman to have to hide their identity while playing online simply because the need is there. Why the hell is it acceptable to allow situations that force this kind of preasure thereby spawning the need to begin with? I don't think it's ever ok for a situation to arrise that warrants being forced to hide who & what you are simply because others are ok with said situations happening. Isn't there a way to change this mentality?
ps: I've been around for awhile so I very well know that it's been this way for some time, but in my book that doesn't make it right seeing as how it's 2012 already!
I don't think female gamers have it much worse than the guys. No matter what gender you are, if you want to play MMOs while avoiding the asshats, you are going to have to be selective of the people you play with. There are lots of guilds that won't tolerate the kind of stuff you describe, I say let the immature jerk guilds be themselves and move on.
Also, I've had an experience similar to your sister's with an extremely overly attached guildmate, thats not just a problem women have and hiding her gender may not have changed anything. Sometimes just being polite and helpful to someone who maybe isn't used to it is enough. I don't know how you expect the guild to deal with that situation either, its really on her to decide if the problem is ruining her game experience and if so to do something about it, not really fair (IMO) to ask a GL to step into something like that.
Yeah I'm pretty much with you.
I feel like the people who would flirt or degrade women, are the same people that would constantly insult anyone with zingers like "F'n tard."
If you've ever played a MOBA game, then you know how annoying those people can be. In the end, asshats are asshats and they will be probably asshats to either gender.
And if someone is stalking you, then just /ignore them, or leave the guild if the GM won't kick them out. You probably don't want to be in a guild with a stalker anyway .
You should ask yourself why to guys feel the need to play female characters instead of male characters. Maybe some guys have something to hide ? I don't see any difference in the point you are trying to make here. BTW if I was female I would hide form you freaks everyday if I could.
If you still have to ask this, after years and years of arguments over it, then you're beating a dead horse for the sake of trying to hear your own voice.
I think you post too much and like reading what you wrote because you need something to do to pass the time by. How do you like those apples ?
I only post to give helpful advice, or tear down stupid accusations.
~and there is far bigger ratio of stupid accusations to requests for help.
(granted, I'm prone to making stupid ones too occasionally - though, the whole men playing as women thing is obvious = libido)
I actually played a female character a few times just for variety's sake. I had played exclusively male characters in games for like 10 years, and found myself getting bored. So I just randomly made a female cahracter, and it was a little refreshing, just made the game feel different.
I've never been in a game where a female even bothered to hide the fact she's a girl. Most come right out with it without even being asked, usually during conversations that are a weak lead-in to revealing it. If anything, I notice that the most people identifying their RL gender are the females, and seemingly to garner some kind of preferential treatment in chat - perhaps to have people be nicer to them, or just watch what they say, but they really do tend to use it like an asset.
For every dude that plays a femchar and is asked in global about his gender in RL, there is usually 1-2 females chiming in with "I'm really a girl!"... or perhaps, just some really convincing trolls, but I'm more convinced that it's the truth most of the time. Mannerisms and all that.
~So I really don't get where the OP is coming from with the idea that they hide the fact.
The main issue with your point is that you're relying on personal experience, and it simply can't exactly be used to prove or disprove OP's argument. The reason why you're never been in a game where a female would hide her identity is because...she's hiding it, so how would you know? Of course there are also female players that will reveal their genders, which is great as I don't think they should have to hide it. In my opinion, the more present they are, the faster the gaming community will mature. Female gamers still represent 40% of the gaming community (most studies points to numbers between 35-45%), but when you're actually in-game, you get the feeling they actually represent only 10% at best considering how few you seem to meet.
I'd say the issue a little worse in competitive games, still the issue is there and needs to be adressed. If you look up the Cross Assault controversy for example, or websites like fatuglyorslutty that covers a lot of material coming from competitive games, I suggest watching their PAX East 2012 panel "N00dz or GTFO! Harassement in Online gaming" there is definitively a problem in the gaming community, and it's preventing female gamers to be as open as their should be.
Oh and the female gamers identifying as such to garner some kind of preferential treatment...looking at some posts in this very thread....I'd argue those were males. Just sayin'
Not because the females were more aesthetically pleasing?
You actually think it made the game itself feel different?
A bit of both, I think it's a mindset thing. Like how a female protagonist in a book feels different than a male one. You can just "imagine" your character as being something different.
I feel like a female warrior "feels" a lot different than a male warrior. I think it must be a role-playing thing.
Come to think of it, I've never once met a female Raid Leader. The hell :I?
I have in EQ2 but they are not that common. Or they don't talk about it and I don´t ask.
Personally I don´t really care what sex anyone I play with have, gaming is just about having fun anyways and who really is behind a avatar matters little to me.
If I want to meet ladies there are better ways than game anyways. Besides people are focusing too much on who is female and not in the gaming community, one would think that all males who game are really horny nerds trying to pick up all female gamers around or something.
The main issue with your point is that you're relying on personal experience, and it simply can't exactly be used to prove or disprove OP's argument. The reason why you're never been in a game where a female would hide her identity is because...she's hiding it, so how would you know? Of course there are also female players that will reveal their genders, which is great as I don't think they should have to hide it. In my opinion, the more present they are, the faster the gaming community will mature. Female gamers still represent 40% of the gaming community (most studies points to numbers between 35-45%), but when you're actually in-game, you get the feeling they actually represent only 10% at best considering how few you seem to meet.
I'd say the issue a little worse in competitive games, still the issue is there and needs to be adressed. If you look up the Cross Assault controversy for example, or websites like fatuglyorslutty that covers a lot of material coming from competitive games, I suggest watching their PAX East 2012 panel "N00dz or GTFO! Harassement in Online gaming" there is definitively a problem in the gaming community, and it's preventing female gamers to be as open as their should be.
Oh and the female gamers identifying as such to garner some kind of preferential treatment...looking at some posts in this very thread....I'd argue those were males. Just sayin'
Yes women never use the fact they are female to get preferential treatment in video games. Just like they never use it in IRL.
Have you played video games online before? Cause if you had you would realize that everybody gets shit on. Not just women. So what women are asking for, if they are asking not to be harassed, is preferential treatment.
The main issue with your point is that you're relying on personal experience, and it simply can't exactly be used to prove or disprove OP's argument. The reason why you're never been in a game where a female would hide her identity is because...she's hiding it, so how would you know?
Mind blown...
~but then it states a case for isolated incidents, because there are obviously plenty of females (in my personal experience with it) that come right out with it. Though, this is in line with how many people, overall, even bother to chime in on the global chat channels to begin with. Which is the smallest fraction of the whole.
So you could say that most players are "hiding" in general.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The main issue with your point is that you're relying on personal experience, and it simply can't exactly be used to prove or disprove OP's argument. The reason why you're never been in a game where a female would hide her identity is because...she's hiding it, so how would you know? Of course there are also female players that will reveal their genders, which is great as I don't think they should have to hide it. In my opinion, the more present they are, the faster the gaming community will mature. Female gamers still represent 40% of the gaming community (most studies points to numbers between 35-45%), but when you're actually in-game, you get the feeling they actually represent only 10% at best considering how few you seem to meet.
I'd say the issue a little worse in competitive games, still the issue is there and needs to be adressed. If you look up the Cross Assault controversy for example, or websites like fatuglyorslutty that covers a lot of material coming from competitive games, I suggest watching their PAX East 2012 panel "N00dz or GTFO! Harassement in Online gaming" there is definitively a problem in the gaming community, and it's preventing female gamers to be as open as their should be.
Oh and the female gamers identifying as such to garner some kind of preferential treatment...looking at some posts in this very thread....I'd argue those were males. Just sayin'
Yes women never use the fact they are female to get preferential treatment in video games. Just like they never use it in IRL.
Have you played video games online before? Cause if you had you would realize that everybody gets shit on. Not just women. So what women are asking for, if they are asking not to be harassed, is preferential treatment.
Oh I'm sure there are female players that use the fact they are female to gain some preferential treatment. My last line was just to poke fun at GT as a few posts in this thread are male members mentionning how they play as females to gain some items and whatnot.
You've said something interesting though. You're liking not wanting to be harassed with preferential treatment, and I think that's just completely silly. You are right though that everyone gets shit on, but it takes a lot more for male players to "trigger" the bad behavior than it is for females. The PAX East 2012 Panel that I linked covers that very well. One of the panelist was featured as Xbox's Gamer of the Week at some point and that was enough to receives plenty of bullshit emails, another panelist simply chat in-game and it's enough for her to receives all this bullshit. That's just plain silly.
No one likes being harassed, but it's not with a "so what, deal with it" attitude that it's going to change.
The PAX East 2012 Panel that I linked covers that very well. One of the panelist was featured as Xbox's Gamer of the Week at some point and that was enough to receives plenty of bullshit emails, another panelist simply chat in-game and it's enough for her to receives all this bullshit. That's just plain silly.
No one likes being harassed, but it's not with a "so what, deal with it" attitude that it's going to change.
That's totally their fault for not assuming that making an email address public, or giving notice of where/when they would be in-game, wouldn't attract tons of would-be pranksters.
This is the "Age of Asshat", people should plan accordingly.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I've been playing mmo's since 1999. I never have had to hide my gender. Originally playing Everquest, chat -such as Teamspeak and Ventrilo wasnt used to direct 60+ man raids, and your gender wasnt really getting in the way in gaming as such. Ofcourse after months even years in the same guild people start to realise your gender or you tell them if they ask.
Personally I ran the community forum for my server in EQ when SoE had closed the official forums a long long time ago. I was also an active member of a high end raiding guild, and one of our Main tanks was a woman. - At the time I dont think people really knew she was female, and they didnt know I was either for a long time. - After people find out your gender I notice two things. The guys, and girls, who have no issue being lead by a female be it in moderating chats and discussions, or tanking a boss in a raid and assigning roles. - And the large group of people, both men and women who have problems with this, on some subconscious level. What others call strong leadership, strong opinions, strict dicipline, will inevitably turn into instead: Bitchyness, period drama, emo'ing. It is an interesting thing to observe actually, how one can throw out certain stereotypes to completely invalidate someone elses skill or intent. It can be quite the battle.
Having seen it happen to other women, and having experienced it myself, I now have a direct and level way of dealing with it, especially since Im old enough to be many of these kids mother, I just have a lot of patience and understanding for what sometimes qualifies as lack of social awareness, maturity and even courtecy. I find that this allows a certain distance to various issues that prevent them ever becoming real issues.
I do not think girls go out of their way to hide their gender, atleast I have not seen this, but on the other hand I firmly believe alot of them do not offer the information when you first meet them. For, I should hope, obvious reasons. - Afterall being online is the only place where you can, somewhat, be judged solely for your actions and behaviour, rather than how you look, and indeed your gender. And it is nice to be with men in a setting where their behaviour is not influenced by some deep instinctual desire be awesomer than all the other males around, in the eyes of the females. - I know, I know this is very simplistic and crude, but there are a lot of guys who are still not that metrosexual to have completely repressed the old club, fire, drag-woman-to-cave mentality. (thank god)
Anyway, in all the rambling, I would just like to say; I have seen first hand, women who in mmo's are an absolute disgrace to the gender. Who make other women cringe with their whiny, -please help me, Im just a girl - behaviour. Who do not for one second consider how their actions affect young socially akward guys who might not have had that many encounters with women before. How it makes them behave when next they interact with one: Example; The guys who think we want you to flirt with us from the sentence after; hello. Its terribly akward, and weird. - It forces the girl to become abrupt and sometimes rude, and it leaves you feeling very uncomfortable. And why? - The guy doesnt behave like that because he wants the girl to never talk to him again, au contraire; he does that because he has experienced this to be acceptable and welcome in other situations. This I really feel girls are responsible for in many ways. - Annoying as hell.
After more than 12 yrs playing socially in mmo's - I have not met any girl who hid her gender. I am sure there are the odd cases, but for the most part none I know of. - I have had many many interactions with gamers I immediately knew were female, while playing male chars, - whom I didnt interact much with, and certainly they didnt inform me of their gender - why should they?
I have experienced first hand, and also witnessed this happening to others, men behaving inapropriate towards myself on ventrilo or Teamspeak, and sometimes in game. But I have never felt I wasnt equal to the challenge of handling it. I have sometimes been very upset, and even cried once or twice. But I am 100% certain that this was because I am from a generation that did not have the internet growing up, and sometimes the words people say when they rage online, if directed at me in a heated situation be it raiding or something else, goes far beyond my personal boundaries. It is simply a use of language I had not encountered before in such offhand casual ways. - After a rude awakening or two, I distanced myself from those people and situations where they might occur, and felt this was as natural a way to deal with it, as it would have been for me to avoid that irl. - So, even in those situations I had the tools at my disposal to not be overly affected by people and situations I didnt equate with fun. Alot of people might frown at this, but it is my experience that it is much easier and realistic to change your own behaviour and expectations, than it is to expect the world to revolve around you and your needs. Thus, when something is unpleasent, stop seeking it out, and do your best to avoid contributing to those situations occuring. - This might be a simple enough truth, but I worry sometimes that not a lot of the younger generation really understand that this is how the world works, and especially that this is a path that leads to a lot less stress and unhappiness in any given situation, be it real life or an mmo.
So when girls hide as the OP categorises it, I think they greatly underestimate their own power and capability. And as long as you yourself, treat others respectfully, argue with facts, and keep quiet when youre premenstrual, you really dont require more space, or special treatment just because of your gender. And you are sure to find allies in both men and females, who will treat you with the same respect you show your environment. This works irl too. If you, as a girl, expect everyone else to be awed by your female'ness, to treat you with kid gloves when you're clearly deranged from your premens without acknowledging it, then you'll have a hard time, but in that case, it might be better for everyone if you do go underground, untill you can handle yourself, and your environment, giving as much as you try to take.
Gender should be irrelevant in mmo's. The fact that it isnt is just us - young, or somewhat young people - dragging our social and gender issues with us into this free environment for better or worse.
The PAX East 2012 Panel that I linked covers that very well. One of the panelist was featured as Xbox's Gamer of the Week at some point and that was enough to receives plenty of bullshit emails, another panelist simply chat in-game and it's enough for her to receives all this bullshit. That's just plain silly.
No one likes being harassed, but it's not with a "so what, deal with it" attitude that it's going to change.
That's totally their fault for not assuming that making an email address public, or giving notice of where/when they would be in-game, wouldn't attract tons of would-be pranksters.
This is the "Age of Asshat", people should plan accordingly.
By email I didn't mean emails like hotmail or gmail. Xbox Live has it's own mail server restricted solely to Xbox Live, it's tied to your profile so you could message anyone's profile you visit.
I don't get threads like this .... I've played online games since Muds and I've never encountered the OP's problem with the people I generally play with. I've always played with women ... who were always open about being women. I met my wife in an online mmo. ( happily married for 6 years on the 17th) They might have been harassed at some point , I've been harassed at times too ... but it doesn't define their online time. I think it's because I skipped WoW for the first several years ... perhaps I was never exposed to this sort of issue. When my group and I did eventually go into WoW the game and community drove us out, but nothing in the form of harassment.
/shrug I don't see any issue ... Any time anyone has said anything remotely sexist or harassing to one of the women I game with they had that woman jump down their throat instantly.
Dunno if it was brought up yet - but why is there such a slew of threads trying to defend women's rights - be it oversexualization in some game, or treatment of females in the gamespace, etc - but all brought forward by men?
So much overcompensating without ever having been asked to.
Quit it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Comments
You hope that one day men will be chemically castrated so they aren't attracted to women?
umm i dun c a problem with being woman & hiding theyr identity they might want it that way.
im male n im hiding my identity when playing y shuld i identify myself to the whole world for?:)
aint it better to let evry1 do as they want in this question?
if yu want it 2 be known yur female then do so if not then dont
its as easy as that
We respect female Tigers well enough, we're not like "Oh hey, it's just a female Tiger throw a bra at it."
Besides, dismissing any part of the argument throws the whole argument out the window including women's contribution to the issue.
I say, women and men are not equal because men and men are not equal. No one is equal or we'd all be identical clones or asgard from SG1. Not to say we shouldn't all be civil to eachother but equality is a stretch. People have different skillsets and levels of intelligence or physical strength, whatever the measuring stick is and some people are on either end of the spectrum. Though what someone IS and what they are capabale of are 2 different things but what's to be said is that some people don't deserve respect... for whatever reason.
Until neural cybernetics are the standard I wouldn't even bother to separate humans from the animal kingdom and we've all seen national geographic on Tv.
Thats exactly right, we are not equal, never have been and never will be.
Something that needs to be said more, is tha fact that these people who act sexist or homophobic, do it to everybody. If we keep talking about just one side of the coin, then this silly debate will never end.
This subject should not be men vs women, but instead people vs bad people. There will always be bad people, men and women alike. I have seen a lot of bad behavior from guys, name calling and general hostility. I have seen a lot of manipulative behavior from gals, creating drama in guilds and starting a lot of fights.
The best way to deal with them, is to ban together, good vs evil.
Hmmm, I've read everything in the thread so far and while I appreciate the OP's concern for his sister, I honestly feel that hiding your gender in-game is a personal choice, and it'll depend on the personality of the individual player.
For those who are inured to the internet, with years of experience - good, bad and indifferent - the idiocy spewed on fatuglyorslutty.com is met with an eyeroll and a sigh. Nothing more. The stuff thrown at Anita Sarkeesian and Jennifer Hepler earlier this year was in a league of its own. What the guys perpetrating this crap don't seem to grok is how terribad it makes THEM look. It does give me pause, sometimes, to think there are men out there who think that way - but, as a woman, if I think too hard about stuff like that I'd get nervous about leaving the house. So I file them away in the G.I.F.T. category and try to forget it. I've never hidden my gender online, but I take reasonable precautions to protect my identity.
Have I had experiences in games that made me uncomfortable? A couple. There was the guy that sang to me in vent...every time I logged on. There are the "white knights" who want to "help" me do everything (they just p**s me off - I can play the darn game perfectly fine without your help, mister!) and the a/s/l idiots (I just lie...55/m/Indianapois...and they go away).
When I started playing online games I viewed all of this as a sort of anthropological experiment. I've played male characters, and it's true that you do get treated a bit differently. There's a whole set of other judgements in play, and largely I'm cool with those - but it's interesting that male characters are rated on gear and prowess and female characters are rated on some nebulous scale of how likely they are to be female IRL and then how likely they are to be (a) hot and (b) up for some cyber if paid enough attention or given enough shinies.
Idk where the latter came from but it's an interesting juxtaposition when you have a guy here posting about how he enjoys posing as a woman to reap the rewards. I know the stereotype must have come from somewhere (I've encountered some female players who make me want to /facepalm - I'm being honest here) but guys can be as dramatic and loot-whorish as girls - and they're often "needier" (sulking because no-one want to speed run them/help with their boss/give them stuff). It's all down to the individual - gender simply isn't enough to go on.
It's the easiest thing to throw at someone, that's all. If the woman you're lobbing insults at hasn't yet developed the thick skin that the internet demands, then it could be hurtful. I don't know (and really don't want to think about) whether those a$$hats are trying to do this or just typing before thinking - or building up their own e-peen by demeaning another player. Most times, they're looking for a reaction, and if they don't get one, they go annoy someone else. Bullies will be bullies, and women are not the only targets. If women all hide behind male avatars and avoid vent etc. then we're letting the bullies win, and adding fuel to the "there are no women on the internets" fallacy.
And I'm going to stop typing now because this is loooooong - sorry!
I've never been in a game where a female even bothered to hide the fact she's a girl. Most come right out with it without even being asked, usually during conversations that are a weak lead-in to revealing it. If anything, I notice that the most people identifying their RL gender are the females, and seemingly to garner some kind of preferential treatment in chat - perhaps to have people be nicer to them, or just watch what they say, but they really do tend to use it like an asset.
For every dude that plays a femchar and is asked in global about his gender in RL, there is usually 1-2 females chiming in with "I'm really a girl!"... or perhaps, just some really convincing trolls, but I'm more convinced that it's the truth most of the time. Mannerisms and all that.
~So I really don't get where the OP is coming from with the idea that they hide the fact.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
^This
I've never heard of what the OP is talking about either.
You should ask yourself why to guys feel the need to play female characters instead of male characters. Maybe some guys have something to hide ? I don't see any difference in the point you are trying to make here. BTW if I was female I would hide form you freaks everyday if I could.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
If you still have to ask this, after years and years of arguments over it, then you're beating a dead horse for the sake of trying to hear your own voice.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I think you post too much and like reading what you wrote because you need something to do to pass the time by. How do you like those apples ?
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
I only post to give helpful advice, or tear down stupid accusations.
~and there is far bigger ratio of stupid accusations to requests for help.
(granted, I'm prone to making stupid ones too occasionally - though, the whole men playing as women thing is obvious = libido)
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Yeah I'm pretty much with you.
I feel like the people who would flirt or degrade women, are the same people that would constantly insult anyone with zingers like "F'n tard."
If you've ever played a MOBA game, then you know how annoying those people can be. In the end, asshats are asshats and they will be probably asshats to either gender.
And if someone is stalking you, then just /ignore them, or leave the guild if the GM won't kick them out. You probably don't want to be in a guild with a stalker anyway
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I actually played a female character a few times just for variety's sake. I had played exclusively male characters in games for like 10 years, and found myself getting bored. So I just randomly made a female cahracter, and it was a little refreshing, just made the game feel different.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Not because the females were more aesthetically pleasing?
You actually think it made the game itself feel different?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The main issue with your point is that you're relying on personal experience, and it simply can't exactly be used to prove or disprove OP's argument. The reason why you're never been in a game where a female would hide her identity is because...she's hiding it, so how would you know? Of course there are also female players that will reveal their genders, which is great as I don't think they should have to hide it. In my opinion, the more present they are, the faster the gaming community will mature. Female gamers still represent 40% of the gaming community (most studies points to numbers between 35-45%), but when you're actually in-game, you get the feeling they actually represent only 10% at best considering how few you seem to meet.
I'd say the issue a little worse in competitive games, still the issue is there and needs to be adressed. If you look up the Cross Assault controversy for example, or websites like fatuglyorslutty that covers a lot of material coming from competitive games, I suggest watching their PAX East 2012 panel "N00dz or GTFO! Harassement in Online gaming" there is definitively a problem in the gaming community, and it's preventing female gamers to be as open as their should be.
Oh and the female gamers identifying as such to garner some kind of preferential treatment...looking at some posts in this very thread....I'd argue those were males. Just sayin'
A bit of both, I think it's a mindset thing. Like how a female protagonist in a book feels different than a male one. You can just "imagine" your character as being something different.
I feel like a female warrior "feels" a lot different than a male warrior. I think it must be a role-playing thing.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I have in EQ2 but they are not that common. Or they don't talk about it and I don´t ask.
Personally I don´t really care what sex anyone I play with have, gaming is just about having fun anyways and who really is behind a avatar matters little to me.
If I want to meet ladies there are better ways than game anyways. Besides people are focusing too much on who is female and not in the gaming community, one would think that all males who game are really horny nerds trying to pick up all female gamers around or something.
Yes women never use the fact they are female to get preferential treatment in video games. Just like they never use it in IRL.
Have you played video games online before? Cause if you had you would realize that everybody gets shit on. Not just women. So what women are asking for, if they are asking not to be harassed, is preferential treatment.
Mind blown...
~but then it states a case for isolated incidents, because there are obviously plenty of females (in my personal experience with it) that come right out with it. Though, this is in line with how many people, overall, even bother to chime in on the global chat channels to begin with. Which is the smallest fraction of the whole.
So you could say that most players are "hiding" in general.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Oh I'm sure there are female players that use the fact they are female to gain some preferential treatment. My last line was just to poke fun at GT as a few posts in this thread are male members mentionning how they play as females to gain some items and whatnot.
You've said something interesting though. You're liking not wanting to be harassed with preferential treatment, and I think that's just completely silly. You are right though that everyone gets shit on, but it takes a lot more for male players to "trigger" the bad behavior than it is for females. The PAX East 2012 Panel that I linked covers that very well. One of the panelist was featured as Xbox's Gamer of the Week at some point and that was enough to receives plenty of bullshit emails, another panelist simply chat in-game and it's enough for her to receives all this bullshit. That's just plain silly.
No one likes being harassed, but it's not with a "so what, deal with it" attitude that it's going to change.
That's totally their fault for not assuming that making an email address public, or giving notice of where/when they would be in-game, wouldn't attract tons of would-be pranksters.
This is the "Age of Asshat", people should plan accordingly.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
WALL OF TEXT; BEWARE!
I've been playing mmo's since 1999. I never have had to hide my gender. Originally playing Everquest, chat -such as Teamspeak and Ventrilo wasnt used to direct 60+ man raids, and your gender wasnt really getting in the way in gaming as such. Ofcourse after months even years in the same guild people start to realise your gender or you tell them if they ask.
Personally I ran the community forum for my server in EQ when SoE had closed the official forums a long long time ago. I was also an active member of a high end raiding guild, and one of our Main tanks was a woman. - At the time I dont think people really knew she was female, and they didnt know I was either for a long time. - After people find out your gender I notice two things. The guys, and girls, who have no issue being lead by a female be it in moderating chats and discussions, or tanking a boss in a raid and assigning roles. - And the large group of people, both men and women who have problems with this, on some subconscious level. What others call strong leadership, strong opinions, strict dicipline, will inevitably turn into instead: Bitchyness, period drama, emo'ing. It is an interesting thing to observe actually, how one can throw out certain stereotypes to completely invalidate someone elses skill or intent. It can be quite the battle.
Having seen it happen to other women, and having experienced it myself, I now have a direct and level way of dealing with it, especially since Im old enough to be many of these kids mother, I just have a lot of patience and understanding for what sometimes qualifies as lack of social awareness, maturity and even courtecy. I find that this allows a certain distance to various issues that prevent them ever becoming real issues.
I do not think girls go out of their way to hide their gender, atleast I have not seen this, but on the other hand I firmly believe alot of them do not offer the information when you first meet them. For, I should hope, obvious reasons. - Afterall being online is the only place where you can, somewhat, be judged solely for your actions and behaviour, rather than how you look, and indeed your gender. And it is nice to be with men in a setting where their behaviour is not influenced by some deep instinctual desire be awesomer than all the other males around, in the eyes of the females. - I know, I know this is very simplistic and crude, but there are a lot of guys who are still not that metrosexual to have completely repressed the old club, fire, drag-woman-to-cave mentality. (thank god)
Anyway, in all the rambling, I would just like to say; I have seen first hand, women who in mmo's are an absolute disgrace to the gender. Who make other women cringe with their whiny, -please help me, Im just a girl - behaviour. Who do not for one second consider how their actions affect young socially akward guys who might not have had that many encounters with women before. How it makes them behave when next they interact with one: Example; The guys who think we want you to flirt with us from the sentence after; hello. Its terribly akward, and weird. - It forces the girl to become abrupt and sometimes rude, and it leaves you feeling very uncomfortable. And why? - The guy doesnt behave like that because he wants the girl to never talk to him again, au contraire; he does that because he has experienced this to be acceptable and welcome in other situations. This I really feel girls are responsible for in many ways. - Annoying as hell.
After more than 12 yrs playing socially in mmo's - I have not met any girl who hid her gender. I am sure there are the odd cases, but for the most part none I know of. - I have had many many interactions with gamers I immediately knew were female, while playing male chars, - whom I didnt interact much with, and certainly they didnt inform me of their gender - why should they?
I have experienced first hand, and also witnessed this happening to others, men behaving inapropriate towards myself on ventrilo or Teamspeak, and sometimes in game. But I have never felt I wasnt equal to the challenge of handling it. I have sometimes been very upset, and even cried once or twice. But I am 100% certain that this was because I am from a generation that did not have the internet growing up, and sometimes the words people say when they rage online, if directed at me in a heated situation be it raiding or something else, goes far beyond my personal boundaries. It is simply a use of language I had not encountered before in such offhand casual ways. - After a rude awakening or two, I distanced myself from those people and situations where they might occur, and felt this was as natural a way to deal with it, as it would have been for me to avoid that irl. - So, even in those situations I had the tools at my disposal to not be overly affected by people and situations I didnt equate with fun. Alot of people might frown at this, but it is my experience that it is much easier and realistic to change your own behaviour and expectations, than it is to expect the world to revolve around you and your needs. Thus, when something is unpleasent, stop seeking it out, and do your best to avoid contributing to those situations occuring. - This might be a simple enough truth, but I worry sometimes that not a lot of the younger generation really understand that this is how the world works, and especially that this is a path that leads to a lot less stress and unhappiness in any given situation, be it real life or an mmo.
So when girls hide as the OP categorises it, I think they greatly underestimate their own power and capability. And as long as you yourself, treat others respectfully, argue with facts, and keep quiet when youre premenstrual, you really dont require more space, or special treatment just because of your gender. And you are sure to find allies in both men and females, who will treat you with the same respect you show your environment. This works irl too. If you, as a girl, expect everyone else to be awed by your female'ness, to treat you with kid gloves when you're clearly deranged from your premens without acknowledging it, then you'll have a hard time, but in that case, it might be better for everyone if you do go underground, untill you can handle yourself, and your environment, giving as much as you try to take.
Gender should be irrelevant in mmo's. The fact that it isnt is just us - young, or somewhat young people - dragging our social and gender issues with us into this free environment for better or worse.
By email I didn't mean emails like hotmail or gmail. Xbox Live has it's own mail server restricted solely to Xbox Live, it's tied to your profile so you could message anyone's profile you visit.
I don't get threads like this .... I've played online games since Muds and I've never encountered the OP's problem with the people I generally play with. I've always played with women ... who were always open about being women. I met my wife in an online mmo. ( happily married for 6 years on the 17th) They might have been harassed at some point , I've been harassed at times too ... but it doesn't define their online time. I think it's because I skipped WoW for the first several years ... perhaps I was never exposed to this sort of issue. When my group and I did eventually go into WoW the game and community drove us out, but nothing in the form of harassment.
/shrug I don't see any issue ... Any time anyone has said anything remotely sexist or harassing to one of the women I game with they had that woman jump down their throat instantly.
Mountains > Mole Hills
Dunno if it was brought up yet - but why is there such a slew of threads trying to defend women's rights - be it oversexualization in some game, or treatment of females in the gamespace, etc - but all brought forward by men?
So much overcompensating without ever having been asked to.
Quit it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture