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Why PvE endgame will fail for MMOs
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
in Guild Wars 2
So for all endgame in any PvE game the same thing goes, it turns intoo a grind the moment developers cant push out endgame content fast enough. Wether it will be GW2 endgame zones or oldfashioned raid dungeons. So far this has allways proved right in my vision.
While GW2 has other good things to offer at max level (WvWvW and traveling to lower level zones still being somewhat challenging) why would a company that offers a Subless AAA MMO succeed where other big companies have failed to push enough content to prevent endgame from turning imtoo a grind. (Blizzard pushing a single patch every 3 months is downright evil whne you get $150M a month from subs).
But seriously, we just cant expect Arenanet to push enough new content to keep hardcore gamers happy and keep the game grindless.
Or will Arenaneet succeed to keep those 3 zones challenging and fun without turning intoo a grind because they Are much more dynamic?
I dont think they will...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
I don't consider what I find fun a failure.
They will have a Live Team like in GW1 that will make constant changes to the games. Keep in mind that they don't have to update only those 3 zones, if they add a new dungeon for level 40 characters, everyone can go there, if they add a new event for level 5 everyone can go and have fun with that content. It won't be just Orr they'll be updating
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Games are different for different people.
Personally, I've never been able to stick with any MMO once I start feeling the grind crushing me.
I often wish 'I woul dlike to go back and play around a bit', but too late, subscription cancelled. NOt going to renew for a lazy weekend.
One of the major reasons I'm pretty good with the B2P methodology of payment.
When I get tired of playing, I'll stop. Some people say '... but an MMO should be a lifetime affair', and I honestly have to wonder... how many MMOs at ALL are like that? Even games like EQ and UO or what have you, their subscriptions have been dipping for a long time now.
People get bored of games. Yes, even MMOs.
PvP is a big motivator that will keep me around at endgame.
Actually, it's been like that for every solid MMORPG I've played. PvP tends to give games (all types of videos games) lasting appeal that the games would otherwise not have.
For me, the PvE is something fun to do on the side with some friends to get some nice looking gear or attempt some of the most difficult achievements in the game together.
What a horribly misleading title. You stated "Why PvE endgame will fail", so I came in looking for facts and found nothing more than your opinion that ANet won't do what they said they're going to do because you don't think they will.
My hopes were crushed. I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!
Oderint, dum metuant.
You're missing 2 relevant differences to other MMOs in your post, Lord. I know that you actually know these, so I wonder why you keep making these kind of posts? Are you really aspiring to become the next MMOExposed?
Seems people have forgotten this game has a cash shop.
Many F2P games out there have no sub and still make a lot of money from their cash shops. How do I know? They're still around! You may not have to buy from it...but it's still there and you can bet people will buy from the GW2 cash shop.
That's where funding for continued development will come from.
As for PVE endgame? Dunno, who cares? There's very very VERY little reason to have a "main" in this game. Almost everything is accountwide it seems, titles, achievements, cosmetics...which is what you work for in this game. It's not like you have to grind for better gear for your main...it's just for looks.
Yellow: "fast enough" is subject to individual players. Some players will go through content much faster than others.
Blue: You claim the situation you cite to have always been right (in your vision - whatever that means), yet you provide no proof. We'll be waiting for examples and proof.
Red: Because not all companies are the same. Rift, WOW, SWTOR, EVE and GW2 all have different devs and different publishers and thus different philosophies and goals. Your incorrect assumptions about subless mmos speaks volumes.
Purple: your $150m per month number is incorrect. Out of the approx 10m wow subs, aprox 6m are located in Asia (mainly China) and they have a different sub model than players in EU/US.
Green: First and foremost, hardcore gamers will never be happy. Considering Anet's philosophy, it's safe to assume their goal is not to keep hardcore gamers happy; GW2 aims to mainly please casual players with enough content to keep hardcore gamers at bay (again - hardcore gamers will never be happy). And yes, I do expect Anet to push enough content for the most of us, not the elite few.
Orange: GW2 is not as much of a grind as the average mmo (especially wow) and I have full confidence in Anet in keeping GW2 challenging.
ArenaNet don't have to do anything apart from bug fixes at launch. Why? They will make there money from box sales and download codes for the launch game. They can worry about persistance in the game later. And, believe it or not they can quite happuly just push out the odd expansion pack and nothing more.
So PvP endgame does not turn to grind? You can actually do more different stuff in PvE then you can in PvP in nearly any game, this will only change once every monster is actually player controlled. So i would say, if you do not have fun (or even if), PvP can be grind, too.
Which leads me to my next question: Are you talking about endgame itself, no matter what you actually do, as there simply isn't enough new stuff - which is kinda funny, talking about endgame and new content beyond the current endgame. For a "normal" MMO, it's only endgame if there isn't any content that is designed for those that have done the content what is currently thought of endgame. The moment there is content that allows you to progress further, as in, higher level, better equipment etc., this new content is endgame. If there would be a continious stream of new content arriving before any player has hit the current max level, there technically would be no end game at all.
With Guild Wars 2 it's a bit different because they won't add content *on top* of the current one, but right next to it, increasing the available content for all players gradually, no matter where they currently are, instead of giving 1% of the player base something to do for the next 24 hours, until the first people beat it again.
They also talked a lot about how endgame starts with level 1, and that was already somewhat true in Guild Wars. It did start with level 20 and max armor, not with level 1, but far from completing the story and even further from having seen everything.
With all this, i come to the conclusion that all MMOs so far failed (OP himself said that other/big companies including Blizzard failed), and/or Guild Wars 2 actually offers better endgame, as in, more people will (be able to) enjoy it.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
PvP is eternal end-game because it never has a stop point - for every win or tournament there is always the next match, the next tournament.
For WvW there is always the next competing server, the next ranked "match up" the dream of pursuing the #1 spot, fighting to keep it.
For PvE, if players slack they will lose control of Orr - I just hope it's challenging enough where it doesn't just fall into a cycle:
1. Player push the zone(s) to "the end" open up Zhaitan fight, kill him.
2. Players allow Orr to reset to start conditions.
3. Players push the zone(s) to "the end" open up Zhaitan fight, kill him.
I'm hoping they have some levers they can turn per-server to up or lower the difficulty to keep things challenging/engaging enough for a long, long time.
PvP is the real endgame for this game.
Considering the attention span of gamers and the fact GW2 basically has no end game, chances are people will lose interest in PvE on it pretty quickly. With nothing to work towards, people won't feel the urge to play. The carrot on a stick is what kept people playing games. Crying as much as they hate grind, without it they are even less likely to continue playing and will tire out of a game and leave it for something else.
Its only hope is PvP and considering that doesn't have anything to really progress in, chances are that will become a borefest eventually for players as well as the process of fighting will become repetative eventually.
If I may be frank. PvE endgame even one that had new, bigger, more epic content being pushed out on launch day onwards will always fail for people like you. You've been called a MMO locust and I believe it is an apt description. To keep you playing for years there would be an annual content download of 1 terabyte. No thanks, I can use my imagination and make GW2's available content fun for me and my friends for years to come.
Enjoy your 2 weeks in GW2.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Looks like someone already acquired the Legendary Unicorn Rain-bow and fired off a bunch of text.
But you certainly did an excellent job in refutting Bachus' blanket statement about the state of GW2's PvE endgame. Also why is it that when people talk about the endgame in MMOs, they seem to suffer from selective amnesia and forget entirely about the PvP. People need to realise that PvP is just as important as PvE, when it comes to the endgme of an MMO. I personally think PvP is more important, in light of games like Starcraft & any DOTA-style game.
Now that's what you called longevity.
You apparently missed the GW2 "interview" yesterday. There is most definitely "end game" and there is most definitely "progression". There are goals to shoot for. It might not be to get some ridicuously powerful gear, but it will look ridiculously cool.
There is way too much carrot chasing and people seem to love it. I could care less. If I am enjoying myself with friends and the content, I will keep playing. Hell, I played FFXIV for 4 months just because I was having fun with the people I was playing with ... and that was one of the worst MMO's released in a long time.
I am ready to just have fun and enjoy myself. I went back to the carrot chasing in RIFT, and "beat the game" in under 2 months ... and Trion puts out content FAST. I am kind of over being in the top server guilds, I just want to logon and play when I want and enjoy myself. The first few times through content is fun, but grinding the same instance/raid 10's of times gets old VERY fast.
My idea of fun end game isn't grinding trivial content over and over again. Apparently, yours is. Have fun with that. We haven't even seen anything past level 50, haven't even played anything past 30ish and people are already saying it sucks and it will fail.
TL;DR: Haters gonna hate.
Maybe you are right,Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
There will always be a few players that burn through content faster than it can be presented. IMO pass/fail criteria is not based on those few players.
IMO, the PvE endgame is successful so long as the players actually continue to enjoy the gameplay. Once players stop enjoying the gameplay, and begin to "tolerate" it simply to get some reward...then it's on its way to faliure.
Now that said, I don't mean to say that long-term progression mechanics are bad. On the contrary, getting cool new stuff can sometimes enhance or even constitute great gameplay. For example, a big draw of Diablo is all the different loot you find, and this is fun in and of itself. It only becomes a problem when you cease to enjoy playing the game, and you basically "put yourself through it" to get gear.
I know that for me, this is the typical progression that leads me to quit a game.
1. This game is really fun and the loot is pretty awesome too.
2. Okay...looks like I have to do such and such to get my macguffin...sounds like a lot of work, but it will be worth it.
3. Well I got my macguffin, but it took 3 days of mindnumbingly repetitive gameplay to do. Now I need to get my macguffin 2, which is even more work...
4. Why am I doing this?
5. Quit.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think there are two things needed to keep players playing for a long time: progression incentive and gameplay variety.
As long as players continually have goals to work toward, they will be driven to keep playing. If the endgame gameplay is too boring or static, however, they may lose interest and stop playing. That's where variety comes in. If it's one thing GW2 does well, it's offering variety. Players aren't restricted to just the current raid tier and daily repeatable quests as the entirety of their endgame pve experience. The entire game remains completely open and, more importantly, relevant. All parts of the game will always offer relevant rewards to the player.
This only becomes more impressive the longer the game lives on. 8 years from now, when GW2 is on its 5th major expansion, all content from every expansion will still be relevant and completely playable by everyone. Take a moment and imagine if the same were true for your favorite MMO. Yeah.
I hold Guild Wars 2 to a different standard than most MMOs and I'll explain why.
When I bought Diablo I didn't expect it to keep me satisfied forever. I played it while it was fun and then stopped when it wasn't fun. Same for Diablo 2. They were fun while it lasted and I'd revisit them from time to time. (In fact, I'm tempted to dust off my original Diablo disks and give it another go.)
When I bought WoW I had high expectations (and was not disappointed until years later). WoW needed to remain fun forever or else I'd shitcan it. Why? Because I bought WoW and then continued to pay for WoW every month. Why pay for something that isn't fun?
Guild Wars 2 falls closer to Diablo than WoW in my game standards despite being a MMO that is closer to WoW than a CRPG like Diablo because of its business model. If GW2 charged a monthly fee then it'd be different. As long as GW2 is fun long enough to justify my original purchase then I win and the game will not be considered a failure even if I eventually lose interest in it.
I don't think I'll lose interest in GW2 because I'm into PvP. I like running 5 man dungeons, and the hardcore 5 mans look like they'll be difficult enough to keep me busy for a while, too. I'm also likely to play alts and will want legendary weapons for all of them. By the time I've consumed all of that content there will be new content added for free as well as expansions and/or mission packs. If I'm enjoying the game and feel that it's a good value I'll likely buy those, too... which extends the life of the game.
If and when I grow tired of GW2 then I'll just stop playing until I feel like playing again, but that certainly won't mean that GW2 has failed as long as it was fun up until it was no longer fun and I'm not pressured into continuing to play when it isn't fun because I'm locked into a subscription.
Anet has so far promised and made all these promises a reality, so it is actually one of the companies that u could have faith in. I expect Guild Wars 2 to be a real great experience, both '' the way to lvl 80 '' and the '' end-game '' plus '' PvP '', don´t forget that most games are actually made to keep u going after gear jsut for the purpose of being good at PvP. Here we get many different ways presented to us so different people can have in different ways. However, GW2 is more of a fun game than a hardcore one and I guess that with all this content, u should be happy for around 6 months. 6 months of one of the best gameplay out there may keep GW2 always in ur mind, this is for sure.
However, Anet may has much in the way to keep people playing, having fun. Like extra content from now to then etc. End-game may also be improved by housing and other stuff that is kinda of '' building ur own life '', getting titles, cool gear, stuff and everything. It is more like making your own legend to keep ur name rememberd by the world. nd of course, we get, in top of that, great experience with friend in, for example, PvP. If Anet could put that '' extra '' content, the expereince may turn out to be around 8 months intead of 6, afterwars .. GW2 will be kinda like the game that u turn back to every week and so to have, it will still be a great experience. Maybe 1 months of this kinda quite play-style and later a new explanion will come with maybe a whole new content that will re-build the whole hype about the game or even an expansion presenting a new continent, like Cantha, Elona or other contenents not presented in GW1.
That´s my opinion.
I think part of the beauty of the game is that you effectively cannot out level content, since you're always reduced in power and level of the zone. To me that's one of the best decisions made, and it turns the entire pve world into an "endgame" of sorts. Since you can always find a way to be rewarded for experiecing the content.
I still think it's way too early to see how the high level PvE endgame will work in GW2 though, since we really haven't seen any of the high level zones, or their events. They could be insanely fun, and wickedly challenging. Hell look at how many people die in the lower level zones. You could have various events passing/failing all over a zone which could effectively change how the zone is played every time you log in. Not to mention the Dungeons with multiple paths to complete. Also, never discredit Auction House "pvp", there's a ton of folks who invest countless hours playing the AH game in WoW alone. Considering crafting is actually rewarding in GW2 and you can get decent gear from it, the AH should be fairly competitive.
PvP will keep many sustanined for a long time though. The battlegrounds are fun, and WvWvW has the potential for a DAoCesque experience.
I can see this game keeping many happy for years to come. I do think that the "hardcore" folks who no life games, just need to learn to pace themselves. Seriously speaking, many of them seem to get OCD over mmos, that can't be healthy.
Here's a HUGE difference in this game: "No Grey Mobs"
In other games onces a player starts running into grey mobs and gets no XP from them, they move on to another zone. In this game, I noticed that doesn't happen because the zone just keeps deleveling the player as they level up naturally.
During one of the BWE's, I stayed in the starting zone 5 levels above what I should have because of completion, but didn't notice it because was having so much fun and the content stayed challenging.
What that does overall is it makes it where players won't nessessarily 'skip' over content just because they're not gaining XP or rewards for it. That will overall make the content much more valuable and last longer.
That's for general PvE content up until and leading through level 80. But, even at level 80, there's reasons to still be doing that content because the player still gains XP. That XP as the player level's up converts directly into addtional Skill Points, which can be used to purchase addtional skills or be used to purchase things that can make Legendary items through the Mystic Forge. And for the completionist, this is a great thing because they can continually be rewarded for still trying to do zone completion on every zone in the game.