Just to clear things up, I played 13 tournament ladders and won every one.. Yes I know people are just learning the game but it isn't necessarily about player skill, rather the amount of skill it requires to play effectively in this game, which happens to not be very high. There wasn't much skill involved in tournament play. All it required was bass hopping from one point to another, the head on encounters with other teams usually ended very quickly as I could burst someone down in literally 4 seconds.
Not only that but the pace of combat felt slow, they need to keep run speed constant, rather then slowing your speed the second you take damage. The dodge mechanic requires little to no skill as it's easy to see when players attacks are coming with the skill delay / charging up of melee attacks and other abilities. (I'm not talking about damage here, which is ridiculously high, but rather players not being able to react faster than the game is allowing them, many abilities fire off quite slow as a warrior and feel a bit clunky especially when you have to stop and charge an ability to use it)
Not only that, but playing the same matches over and over start to become quite stale. They need new game modes if they want to see sPvP thrive, there aren't nearly enough to keep people interested for an extended period of time.
I wish the game had healers and single target CC not just random AoE skills/CC that don't take much thinking to use. The game is fun, I just don't think it's really challenging enough to be taken as a serious e-sport.
Um, what? You contradict half the points you attempt to make. Not only is this not very credible but some of things you are stating are just flat out wrong or gloss over other aspects of the mechanic. Finally some of your points are actually countered by the players in the video itself, bursting everyone down in four second, fine try that against that necro.
I am sorry but you just sound bitter and not anywhere even close to objective.
All of this show the type of scrub you are and the type of scrubs you were playing.
Single target CC and healers are for the most pathetic PVPs ever made.
You can talk all you like but i dont believe for a single second you had tournament matches and if you did the people you fought were as bad as you.
Claiming the game has a low skill cap is laughable at best.
Also the comment that they need more game modes for the game to thrive? Yep a complete scrub again. Mobas have had the same basic design for over 7 years and they are as competitive as they have ever been.
If your next comment is something along the lines that WoW is better and the skill cap is higher ima seriously lol and block you cause any pvper that values itself doesnt touch pvp in wow, not even if they pay them.
What is this I don't even... Nervo, Tarnished Coast, Asura warrior.. Looking forward to playing matches against you
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by Navac
Um, what? You contradict half the points you attempt to make. Not only is this not very credible but some of things you are stating are just flat out wrong or gloss over other aspects of the mechanic. Finally some of your points are actually countered by the players in the video itself, bursting everyone down in four second, fine try that against that necro.
I am sorry but you just sound bitter and not anywhere even close to objective.
Where did I contradict myself? Did you read through the entire post? I'm saying damage is too high yet the game feels a bit clunky and slow paced, I was talking about movement speed and how skills fire off slowly or "charge" up, I wasn't talking about the pace of damage. The only time things are ever "fast" is when a warrior uses his frenzy ability which allows his skills to fire off twice as fast, which I know multiple classes have as well. I'm not sure how my points can be flat out wrong when I have played the game every beta weekend and experienced it for myself..
In regards to the necro using his death shroud. Having two health bars is a bit ridiculous, but I can still manage to lock a necro down for some time to completely negate his death shroud and get him down to at least 50 percent. With a bit of help he would die fairly quickly. Yes you can counter that he has abilities to break my stuns, but with my build I have 4 different stun abilities and 5 abilities total that cause loss of control of your character. And I only need two of them to kill someone quickly paired with frenzy.
I'll be playing the game competitvely, I guess you guys can judge if I suck then Looking forward to seeing you guys in tournaments...
Just to clear things up, I played 13 tournament ladders and won every one.. Yes I know people are just learning the game but it isn't necessarily about player skill, rather the amount of skill it requires to play effectively in this game, which happens to not be very high. There wasn't much skill involved in tournament play. All it required was bass hopping from one point to another, the head on encounters with other teams usually ended very quickly as I could burst someone down in literally 4 seconds.
Not only that but the pace of combat felt slow, they need to keep run speed constant, rather then slowing your speed the second you take damage. The dodge mechanic requires little to no skill as it's easy to see when players attacks are coming with the skill delay / charging up of melee attacks and other abilities. (I'm not talking about damage here, which is ridiculously high, but rather players not being able to react faster than the game is allowing them, many abilities fire off quite slow as a warrior and feel a bit clunky especially when you have to stop and charge an ability to use it)
Not only that, but playing the same matches over and over start to become quite stale. They need new game modes if they want to see sPvP thrive, there aren't nearly enough to keep people interested for an extended period of time.
I wish the game had healers and single target CC not just random AoE skills/CC that don't take much thinking to use. The game is fun, I just don't think it's really challenging enough to be taken as a serious e-sport.
Um, what? You contradict half the points you attempt to make. Not only is this not very credible but some of things you are stating are just flat out wrong or gloss over other aspects of the mechanic. Finally some of your points are actually countered by the players in the video itself, bursting everyone down in four second, fine try that against that necro.
I am sorry but you just sound bitter and not anywhere even close to objective.
I had the exact same reaction. He contradicts himself from one sentence to the next, which really just negates what ever point he was trying to make. I know I'm confused.
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Dang. You're trapped.
Saying wow arena takes more skill, and GW2 skill cap is too low for e-sports, then playing the "I was a grand arena master in wow", it just kills any credibility. It's even better when you "wish there were healers". You're this kind of player who achieved some stuff in another game, gained some fame for it, and instantly want the same gratification level in any new game you touch, or "it's not as good".
I'll say it : wow arena takes no skill. Period. Everybody and their grandmother remembers those moments where a healer was simply unkillable even on 1 vs 3 just because he had 10 more iLvl on his stuff.
GW2 is about playing intelligently without relying on stuff at all. Wow can make you /faceroll a 3v3 match just because the druid in your team has 10 more iLvL than the opposite healer. So don't talk about skill, please. Oh, and pillar LoS stupidity, I forgot. And 10 sec long stuns, and 30 sec long roots against melee, making them useless. Yes, yes, skill.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Just to clear things up, I played 13 tournament ladders and won every one.. Yes I know people are just learning the game but it isn't necessarily about player skill, rather the amount of skill it requires to play effectively in this game, which happens to not be very high. There wasn't much skill involved in tournament play. All it required was bass hopping from one point to another, the head on encounters with other teams usually ended very quickly as I could burst someone down in literally 4 seconds.
Not only that but the pace of combat felt slow, they need to keep run speed constant, rather then slowing your speed the second you take damage. The dodge mechanic requires little to no skill as it's easy to see when players attacks are coming with the skill delay / charging up of melee attacks and other abilities. (I'm not talking about damage here, which is ridiculously high, but rather players not being able to react faster than the game is allowing them, many abilities fire off quite slow as a warrior and feel a bit clunky especially when you have to stop and charge an ability to use it)
Not only that, but playing the same matches over and over start to become quite stale. They need new game modes if they want to see sPvP thrive, there aren't nearly enough to keep people interested for an extended period of time.
I wish the game had healers and single target CC not just random AoE skills/CC that don't take much thinking to use. The game is fun, I just don't think it's really challenging enough to be taken as a serious e-sport.
[mod edit]
Just a quick question what mmo pvp are you playing then exactly?
Just to clear things up, I played 13 tournament ladders and won every one.. Yes I know people are just learning the game but it isn't necessarily about player skill, rather the amount of skill it requires to play effectively in this game, which happens to not be very high. There wasn't much skill involved in tournament play. All it required was bass hopping from one point to another, the head on encounters with other teams usually ended very quickly as I could burst someone down in literally 4 seconds.
Not only that but the pace of combat felt slow, they need to keep run speed constant, rather then slowing your speed the second you take damage. The dodge mechanic requires little to no skill as it's easy to see when players attacks are coming with the skill delay / charging up of melee attacks and other abilities. (I'm not talking about damage here, which is ridiculously high, but rather players not being able to react faster than the game is allowing them, many abilities fire off quite slow as a warrior and feel a bit clunky especially when you have to stop and charge an ability to use it)
Not only that, but playing the same matches over and over start to become quite stale. They need new game modes if they want to see sPvP thrive, there aren't nearly enough to keep people interested for an extended period of time.
I wish the game had healers and single target CC not just random AoE skills/CC that don't take much thinking to use. The game is fun, I just don't think it's really challenging enough to be taken as a serious e-sport.
[mod edit]
Just a quick question what mmo pvp are you playing then exactly?
None pvp in MMOs is unskilled and retarded, the only one who took any skill was GW and even then it was only good because it was better than all the other trash that other MMOs call pvp.
As a pvper than mostly PVPs in other genres i see as GW2 as the only MMO that finally gets how PVP is suposed to be.
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Dang. You're trapped.
Saying wow arena takes more skill, and GW2 skill cap is too low for e-sports, then playing the "I was a grand arena master in wow", it just kills any credibility. It's even better when you "wish there were healers". You're this kind of player who achieved some stuff in another game, gained some fame for it, and instantly want the same gratification level in any new game you touch, or "it's not as good".
I'll say it : wow arena takes no skill. Period. Everybody and their grandmother remembers those moments where a healer was simply unkillable even on 1 vs 3 just because he had 10 more iLvl on his stuff.
GW2 is about playing intelligently without relying on stuff at all. Wow can make you /faceroll a 3v3 match just because the druid in your team has 10 more iLvL than the opposite healer. So don't talk about skill, please. Oh, and pillar LoS stupidity, I forgot. And 10 sec long stuns, and 30 sec long roots against melee, making them useless. Yes, yes, skill.
I agree, it seems the only pvp he has played was WoW, he clearly doesnt know how true pvp works. Therefore making his opinion not valid in any discussion regarding pvp.
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Dang. You're trapped.
Saying wow arena takes more skill, and GW2 skill cap is too low for e-sports, then playing the "I was a grand arena master in wow", it just kills any credibility. It's even better when you "wish there were healers". You're this kind of player who achieved some stuff in another game, gained some fame for it, and instantly want the same gratification level in any new game you touch, or "it's not as good".
I'll say it : wow arena takes no skill. Period. Everybody and their grandmother remembers those moments where a healer was simply unkillable even on 1 vs 3 just because he had 10 more iLvl on his stuff.
GW2 is about playing intelligently without relying on stuff at all. Wow can make you /faceroll a 3v3 match just because the druid in your team has 10 more iLvL than the opposite healer. So don't talk about skill, please. Oh, and pillar LoS stupidity, I forgot. And 10 sec long stuns, and 30 sec long roots against melee, making them useless. Yes, yes, skill.
When did I ever say I was skilled at WoW?.. Saying that WoW isn't a skill based game is again laughable though. When you play in higher brackets there isn't much of a gear difference, even so I've been able to hit 2200 and have gotten tier 2 weapons using gear that was a season old. Using line of sight is strategic placement of your team to maximize and minimize damage, how is that stupid? 10 second long stuns? There are no 10 second long stuns. I believe as a rogue the max you can stun someone in a combo is 5 seconds because of diminishing returns. Even so, you have abilities to stop damage while in a stun or completely get out of it with trinket, even if you have neither of those ways to counter the other persons stun, you have teammates to rely on that can CC them in order for them to not do damage. 30 second roots? That again, is impossible. If you're playing with a compitent healer in 3v3 arena as well, a simple dispel will do the trick to remove it.
I think you need to stop blaming gear difference, and assess your skill at the game first : /
Not even sure why I replied to this as it's not even on topic, another poster attempted to unsult me by calling me a scrub and WoW pvper, and I merely agreed that I have played WoW in the past.
Its going to get further nerfed .... I don't care how many utility slots they take to support it, its to strong. Yes you can see it coming .... which basically means if you see a Greatsword coming towards you, run. Which also means you HAVE to hit that dodge, or escape to ensure you don't get locked up. Which also means you have to use an escape and always hold a dodge in reserve to counter one profession. Thats not even counting that the warrior can easily predict your escape or dodge, which he should and slam you with a bash.
As in EVERY mmo with pvp before this ... when one build/class requires the rest of the community to hold things in reserve/blow cooldowns/buy items to counter that ONE build/class ... it gets nerfed. The difficulty of landing that rotation as a Warrior is also not up to par with the amount of damage it does.
I'm sure I will get drowned out by the sea of " Learn to play" folks who claim I get stomped by Warriors, which I don't I actually never get caught in a 100b combo anymore. ( See Engineer ) There is a reason Anet nerfed the original Engineers bomb drop builds, it required the players to hold escapes in reserve just to have a chance to get away.
I'm not so sure tbh.
I understand that it's scary. It is a lot of damage in a very short amount of time. However, it's not a build that is required to win matches (as shown by the OP's video). It also doesn't require you to use dodge, dodge is only one (of many) ways to counter it.
- It's also not a guarunteed kill. If you're sporting low HP, then yes, you have to be careful, but that's the trade off of having low HP. You are much more vulnerable.
- Basically this combo is an 'all or nothing' combo. You need to put your entire build into this one 2-3 second burst in order for it to work, and then you're more or less useless for the rest of the fights. I think that's a pretty fair tradeoff, even if I find it annoying when I get hit by it.
If they were to nerf this combo further (which is entirely possible), than they had better give warriors something viable in return. The warriors are already getting the nerf bat a bit hard atm, and they aren't anywhere near as tough to deal w/ as classes like the guardian, mesmer, necro, or elementalist. Nerf their burst potential, and you will essentially only see rifle warriors, and the ocassional support warrior. They just aren't that tough to fight overall. (In a lot of ways they've already become a noob check class.)
If your next comment is something along the lines that WoW is better and the skill cap is higher ima seriously lol and block you cause any pvper that values itself doesnt touch pvp in wow, not even if they pay them.
Just a quick question what mmo pvp are you playing then exactly?
None pvp in MMOs is unskilled and retarded, the only one who took any skill was GW and even then it was only good because it was better than all the other trash that other MMOs call pvp.
As a pvper than mostly PVPs in other genres i see as GW2 as the only MMO that finally gets how PVP is suposed to be.
Uh sorry but you didn't exactly answer my question. You said that any pvper that values itself dosn't touch pvp in wow so what games have you actually pvped in?
If your next comment is something along the lines that WoW is better and the skill cap is higher ima seriously lol and block you cause any pvper that values itself doesnt touch pvp in wow, not even if they pay them.
Just a quick question what mmo pvp are you playing then exactly?
None pvp in MMOs is unskilled and retarded, the only one who took any skill was GW and even then it was only good because it was better than all the other trash that other MMOs call pvp.
As a pvper than mostly PVPs in other genres i see as GW2 as the only MMO that finally gets how PVP is suposed to be.
Uh sorry but you didn't exactly answer my question. You said that any pvper that values itself dosn't touch pvp in wow so what games have you actually pvped in?
pvp is not only in MMOs, your question sounded like you were asking what MMO pvp im doing right now, thats why i said none.
And i have pvped in most MMOs, even in ftp games like maplestory, they never give the feeling that you are suposed to get from a pvp game like counterstrike or Dota.
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Dang. You're trapped.
Saying wow arena takes more skill, and GW2 skill cap is too low for e-sports, then playing the "I was a grand arena master in wow", it just kills any credibility. It's even better when you "wish there were healers". You're this kind of player who achieved some stuff in another game, gained some fame for it, and instantly want the same gratification level in any new game you touch, or "it's not as good".
I'll say it : wow arena takes no skill. Period. Everybody and their grandmother remembers those moments where a healer was simply unkillable even on 1 vs 3 just because he had 10 more iLvl on his stuff.
GW2 is about playing intelligently without relying on stuff at all. Wow can make you /faceroll a 3v3 match just because the druid in your team has 10 more iLvL than the opposite healer. So don't talk about skill, please. Oh, and pillar LoS stupidity, I forgot. And 10 sec long stuns, and 30 sec long roots against melee, making them useless. Yes, yes, skill.
When did I ever say I was skilled at WoW?.. Saying that WoW isn't a skill based game is again laughable though. When you play in higher brackets there isn't much of a gear difference, even so I've been able to hit 2200 and have gotten tier 2 weapons using gear that was a season old. Using line of sight is strategic placement of your team to maximize and minimize damage, how is that stupid? 10 second long stuns? There are no 10 second long stuns. I believe as a rogue the max you can stun someone in a combo is 5 seconds because of diminishing returns. Even so, you have abilities to stop damage while in a stun or completely get out of it with trinket, even if you have neither of those ways to counter the other persons stun, you have teammates to rely on that can CC them in order for them to not do damage. 30 second roots? That again, is impossible. If you're playing with a compitent healer in 3v3 arena as well, a simple dispel will do the trick to remove it.
I think you need to stop blaming gear difference, and assess your skill at the game first : /
Not even sure why I replied to this as it's not even on topic, another poster attempted to unsult me by calling me a scrub and WoW pvper, and I merely agreed that I have played WoW in the past.
Wrong : Rogue max stun is 6 sec (cheap shot). With DR it's 6+3+1.5 = 10.5s.
(+ daze effects (gouge, blind, 6 sec) + snare (-70% speed).) I know it, as I was a Rogue stunning people for that long.
Harmstring is undispellable and the most used snare in arena. Plus, you're assuming that your "competent healer" has nobody under focus fire to take care of, which is impossible at high level. Trinket is 2 min cd. Any class snare can be reapplied in 1-1.5s, and I'm not sure your healer wants to engage a battle of who-will-dispell-the-fastest when his other buddy is being pound to the ground, etc, etc...
It's cute to see you redirect my argument to a potential lack of skill when you make such gross mistakes on core skills.
Case closed.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Wrong : Rogue max stun is 6 sec (cheap shot). With DR it's 6+3+1.5 = 10.5s.
(+ daze effects (gouge, blind, 6 sec) + snare (-70% speed).) I know it, as I was a Rogue stunning people for that long.
Harmstring is undispellable and the most used snare in arena. Plus, you're assuming that your "competent healer" has nobody under focus fire to take care of, which is impossible at high level. Trinket is 2 min cd. Any class snare can be reapplied in 1-1.5s, etc, etc...
It's cute to see you redirect my argument to a potential lack of skill when you make such gross mistakes on core skills.
Case closed.
I played a rogue at 2400 ratings. Kidney shot is 6 seconds without diminishing returns and is on a 25 second cool down, cheap shot is 4 seconds without diminishing returns and only usuable in stealth. Skills are reduced by 50% the first diminishing return, making the max possible stun time 7 seconds without the use of shadow dance. if you use Shadow dance you can apply an additional cheapshot that stuns for an additional 1 second as the diminishing return for the stun will be at 75% at that point, making it 8 seconds total, not 10. or 10.5. The other abilities you mentioned aren't stuns, so I won't even bother with those.
It's funny though as my math didn't have to be correct, if you understood my post, the duration of the stun is irrelavent, it's about your abilities to counter the stun if you or your teammates react quickly. I was simply pointing out that you can't get stuck in a 10 second stun, just something I pointed out.
Also, I played a priest at 2500 rating and frequently dispelled my partners and the enemy team while keeping my teammates healed so your point doesn't make sense because it's simply not true.
Lastly, I was talking about a root, not a snare/slow such as hamstring (which isn't the most used snare in the game..). And these can be negated when playing with certain classes (ie. paladin using freedom on player to negate all slow effects)
edit) Doing math you could potentially lock someone for 9 seconds with a kidney shot (6)+ cheap shot (2) + cheap shot(1) combo, but that is pretty useless considering you won't be able to do damage as you're spending all your energy locking someone down and can only be pulled off using shadow dance which is your main damage dealing ability, making the idea possible but impracticle
Its going to get further nerfed .... I don't care how many utility slots they take to support it, its to strong. Yes you can see it coming .... which basically means if you see a Greatsword coming towards you, run. Which also means you HAVE to hit that dodge, or escape to ensure you don't get locked up. Which also means you have to use an escape and always hold a dodge in reserve to counter one profession. Thats not even counting that the warrior can easily predict your escape or dodge, which he should and slam you with a bash.
As in EVERY mmo with pvp before this ... when one build/class requires the rest of the community to hold things in reserve/blow cooldowns/buy items to counter that ONE build/class ... it gets nerfed. The difficulty of landing that rotation as a Warrior is also not up to par with the amount of damage it does.
I'm sure I will get drowned out by the sea of " Learn to play" folks who claim I get stomped by Warriors, which I don't I actually never get caught in a 100b combo anymore. ( See Engineer ) There is a reason Anet nerfed the original Engineers bomb drop builds, it required the players to hold escapes in reserve just to have a chance to get away.
I'm not so sure tbh.
I understand that it's scary. It is a lot of damage in a very short amount of time. However, it's not a build that is required to win matches (as shown by the OP's video). It also doesn't require you to use dodge, dodge is only one (of many) ways to counter it.
- It's also not a guarunteed kill. If you're sporting low HP, then yes, you have to be careful, but that's the trade off of having low HP. You are much more vulnerable.
- Basically this combo is an 'all or nothing' combo. You need to put your entire build into this one 2-3 second burst in order for it to work, and then you're more or less useless for the rest of the fights. I think that's a pretty fair tradeoff, even if I find it annoying when I get hit by it.
If they were to nerf this combo further (which is entirely possible), than they had better give warriors something viable in return. The warriors are already getting the nerf bat a bit hard atm, and they aren't anywhere near as tough to deal w/ as classes like the guardian, mesmer, necro, or elementalist. Nerf their burst potential, and you will essentially only see rifle warriors, and the ocassional support warrior. They just aren't that tough to fight overall. (In a lot of ways they've already become a noob check class.)
I somewhat disagree ... that its an all or nothing combo. It's not as if the warriors doesn't have any abilties to use to maintain pressure on someone when the combo is blown. He still has *plenty* of pressure to provide and the cooldowns aren't long enough that its an issue. Two cripples, stun , block , dash , pbae spins .... thats plenty to lean over into the next refresh on 100b. I still contest that Warriors have way to much base health, absurd amounts, where as every other profession has to build for survivability Warriors come into it naturally. The health buff was done due to whines about Warriors PvE survivability, it just happens to have pushed them into "OP" territory in PvP. ( Obviously IMO ) I would be fine with their burst damage, if they actually had to trade for it ... glass cannon and all, but they don't. The warrior is actually hampered by this build more than its assisted, I've seen plenty of unique Warrior builds played well that are viable but just don't deal the burst that this Alpha build does ... so its tossed out.
/shrug -- Keep in mind, I'm for the removal of ALL alpha builds from the game, the warriors just stands out because its just .... that simple , that everyones using it.
If your next comment is something along the lines that WoW is better and the skill cap is higher ima seriously lol and block you cause any pvper that values itself doesnt touch pvp in wow, not even if they pay them.
Just a quick question what mmo pvp are you playing then exactly?
None pvp in MMOs is unskilled and retarded, the only one who took any skill was GW and even then it was only good because it was better than all the other trash that other MMOs call pvp.
As a pvper than mostly PVPs in other genres i see as GW2 as the only MMO that finally gets how PVP is suposed to be.
Uh sorry but you didn't exactly answer my question. You said that any pvper that values itself dosn't touch pvp in wow so what games have you actually pvped in?
pvp is not only in MMOs, your question sounded like you were asking what MMO pvp im doing right now, thats why i said none.
And i have pvped in most MMOs, even in ftp games like maplestory, they never give the feeling that you are suposed to get from a pvp game like counterstrike or Dota.
So you have pvped in most MMOs but somehow if you "value yourself" don't touch wow. Im wondering what MMOs you got your pvp knowledge from? Have you even played wow?
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Dang. You're trapped.
Saying wow arena takes more skill, and GW2 skill cap is too low for e-sports, then playing the "I was a grand arena master in wow", it just kills any credibility. It's even better when you "wish there were healers". You're this kind of player who achieved some stuff in another game, gained some fame for it, and instantly want the same gratification level in any new game you touch, or "it's not as good".
I'll say it : wow arena takes no skill. Period. Everybody and their grandmother remembers those moments where a healer was simply unkillable even on 1 vs 3 just because he had 10 more iLvl on his stuff.
GW2 is about playing intelligently without relying on stuff at all. Wow can make you /faceroll a 3v3 match just because the druid in your team has 10 more iLvL than the opposite healer. So don't talk about skill, please. Oh, and pillar LoS stupidity, I forgot. And 10 sec long stuns, and 30 sec long roots against melee, making them useless. Yes, yes, skill.
This has gotten pretty off topic, but for the sake of this current topic I will say this: To say Arena in WoW takes no skill is false. I'm not agreeing with every point Navac is trying to make here, but at high level play, Arena did take some sort of skill. It was mainly building a team that synergized well together (most were FotM teams), but a lot of it was just memorizing animations and reacting to those (fearing, freezing, trinketing, ect). It took a different sort of skill as GW2, but they do share a lot in how reacting to certain key abilities can win or lose you the fight. I never got to 2200, but my 3's team was close to 1800 from what I remember (been a LONG time), so I can speak from experience.
The bottom line is this: trying to bicker between eachother over which took more skill and which didn't is pointless. They are 2 different games altogether and not much is common between them. I thoroughly enjoy the PvP in GW2 because I believe outplaying an opponent/team based on precise placement of fields, clutch use of stability and knockbacks/knockdowns to get your ally back into the fight to swing it back in your favor and dodging at just the right time to avoid that Warrior burst makes it worth it for me.
I'm not a fan of WoW but it'd be silly to say it didn't take skill to perform well in arena.
The combat may not have been super complex to become decent at, but there were certainly plenty of nuances that set good players and great players apart from each other. All you had to see was the same players performing consistently well each season to see that much.
This game plays differently in pvp but I wouldn't say it's really much more complicated. It's true gear won't play a factor but honestly there was a large portion of pvpers in WoW that had the best gear too or close enough that it didn't matter. Still had consistent winners and losers and I expect to see the same here.
I played a rogue at 2400 ratings. Kidney shot is 6 seconds without diminishing returns and is on a 25 second cool down, cheap shot is 4 seconds without diminishing returns and only usuable in stealth. Skills are reduced by 50% the first diminishing return, making the max possible stun time 7 seconds without the use of shadow dance. if you use Shadow dance you can apply an additional cheapshot that stuns for an additional 1 second as the diminishing return for the stun will be at 75% at that point, making it 8 seconds total, not 10. or 10.5. The other abilities you mentioned aren't stuns, so I won't even bother with those.
It's funny though as my math didn't have to be correct, if you understood my post, the duration of the stun is irrelavent, it's about your abilities to counter the stun if you or your teammates react quickly. I was simply pointing out that you can't get stuck in a 10 second stun, just something I pointed out.
Also, I played a priest at 2500 rating and frequently dispelled my partners and the enemy team while keeping my teammates healed so your point doesn't make sense because it's simply not true.
First, for the Rogue : Cheap Shot (4 sec), Kidney Shot 5 combo points (6 sec). DR resets after 15 sec. Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot are on the same DR table ( http://www.wowwiki.com/Diminishing_returns ), but Gouge and Blind are on 2 other separate DR families. Gouge is 5s daze, 10s CD, Blind 8s disorient, 1 min cd. + Vanish / Prep / start it over.
With this in mind, it is perfectly possible for one class alone to prevent someone to play for 10 sec straight, if not more. Now you put into that table other classes stuns, snares (as you played Rogue, how many times did you find yourself sluggishly trying to reach your target while being chain snared ? I remember it happened so often that it cut all the fun, trinket or not, dispell or not. Don't you remember the US forums when rogues were constantly complaining about their mobility because of that ?).
Do you really find this Incapacitating game something called skill ? Where it's up to the first who chain the most stuns/dazes/roots/dispell ? Seriously ? Where one healer can just put 3 Heals over time on one mate, and sit down for the rest of the match ? Where one class is constantly dominating 70% of seasons ?
To this point you can say that being the one who triggers his 3 min CD quicker to counter another 3 min cd can be called skill, for me it's just called whack-a-mole.
To stay on topic, GW2 deliberately suppressed everything that was dumbing down that skill you're talking about : stuff inflated stats and exaggerated crowd controls. If you think about this gamedesign decision alone you can't just simply say that GW2's skillcap is too limited (= below WoW arena) to be an e-sport.
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Um, what? You contradict half the points you attempt to make. Not only is this not very credible but some of things you are stating are just flat out wrong or gloss over other aspects of the mechanic. Finally some of your points are actually countered by the players in the video itself, bursting everyone down in four second, fine try that against that necro.
I am sorry but you just sound bitter and not anywhere even close to objective.
What is this I don't even... Nervo, Tarnished Coast, Asura warrior.. Looking forward to playing matches against you
I would agree WoW arena does take more skill, I've played S9 through 10 at 2500 rating but quit due to balance issues. Claiming wow arena takes no skill is laughable.
Where did I contradict myself? Did you read through the entire post? I'm saying damage is too high yet the game feels a bit clunky and slow paced, I was talking about movement speed and how skills fire off slowly or "charge" up, I wasn't talking about the pace of damage. The only time things are ever "fast" is when a warrior uses his frenzy ability which allows his skills to fire off twice as fast, which I know multiple classes have as well. I'm not sure how my points can be flat out wrong when I have played the game every beta weekend and experienced it for myself..
In regards to the necro using his death shroud. Having two health bars is a bit ridiculous, but I can still manage to lock a necro down for some time to completely negate his death shroud and get him down to at least 50 percent. With a bit of help he would die fairly quickly. Yes you can counter that he has abilities to break my stuns, but with my build I have 4 different stun abilities and 5 abilities total that cause loss of control of your character. And I only need two of them to kill someone quickly paired with frenzy.
I'll be playing the game competitvely, I guess you guys can judge if I suck then
Looking forward to seeing you guys in tournaments...
I had the exact same reaction. He contradicts himself from one sentence to the next, which really just negates what ever point he was trying to make. I know I'm confused.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Dang. You're trapped.
Saying wow arena takes more skill, and GW2 skill cap is too low for e-sports, then playing the "I was a grand arena master in wow", it just kills any credibility. It's even better when you "wish there were healers". You're this kind of player who achieved some stuff in another game, gained some fame for it, and instantly want the same gratification level in any new game you touch, or "it's not as good".
I'll say it : wow arena takes no skill. Period. Everybody and their grandmother remembers those moments where a healer was simply unkillable even on 1 vs 3 just because he had 10 more iLvl on his stuff.
GW2 is about playing intelligently without relying on stuff at all. Wow can make you /faceroll a 3v3 match just because the druid in your team has 10 more iLvL than the opposite healer. So don't talk about skill, please. Oh, and pillar LoS stupidity, I forgot. And 10 sec long stuns, and 30 sec long roots against melee, making them useless. Yes, yes, skill.
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Just a quick question what mmo pvp are you playing then exactly?
None pvp in MMOs is unskilled and retarded, the only one who took any skill was GW and even then it was only good because it was better than all the other trash that other MMOs call pvp.
As a pvper than mostly PVPs in other genres i see as GW2 as the only MMO that finally gets how PVP is suposed to be.
I agree, it seems the only pvp he has played was WoW, he clearly doesnt know how true pvp works. Therefore making his opinion not valid in any discussion regarding pvp.
When did I ever say I was skilled at WoW?.. Saying that WoW isn't a skill based game is again laughable though. When you play in higher brackets there isn't much of a gear difference, even so I've been able to hit 2200 and have gotten tier 2 weapons using gear that was a season old. Using line of sight is strategic placement of your team to maximize and minimize damage, how is that stupid? 10 second long stuns? There are no 10 second long stuns. I believe as a rogue the max you can stun someone in a combo is 5 seconds because of diminishing returns. Even so, you have abilities to stop damage while in a stun or completely get out of it with trinket, even if you have neither of those ways to counter the other persons stun, you have teammates to rely on that can CC them in order for them to not do damage. 30 second roots? That again, is impossible. If you're playing with a compitent healer in 3v3 arena as well, a simple dispel will do the trick to remove it.
I think you need to stop blaming gear difference, and assess your skill at the game first : /
Not even sure why I replied to this as it's not even on topic, another poster attempted to unsult me by calling me a scrub and WoW pvper, and I merely agreed that I have played WoW in the past.
I'm not so sure tbh.
I understand that it's scary. It is a lot of damage in a very short amount of time. However, it's not a build that is required to win matches (as shown by the OP's video). It also doesn't require you to use dodge, dodge is only one (of many) ways to counter it.
- It's also not a guarunteed kill. If you're sporting low HP, then yes, you have to be careful, but that's the trade off of having low HP. You are much more vulnerable.
- Basically this combo is an 'all or nothing' combo. You need to put your entire build into this one 2-3 second burst in order for it to work, and then you're more or less useless for the rest of the fights. I think that's a pretty fair tradeoff, even if I find it annoying when I get hit by it.
If they were to nerf this combo further (which is entirely possible), than they had better give warriors something viable in return. The warriors are already getting the nerf bat a bit hard atm, and they aren't anywhere near as tough to deal w/ as classes like the guardian, mesmer, necro, or elementalist. Nerf their burst potential, and you will essentially only see rifle warriors, and the ocassional support warrior. They just aren't that tough to fight overall. (In a lot of ways they've already become a noob check class.)
Uh sorry but you didn't exactly answer my question. You said that any pvper that values itself dosn't touch pvp in wow so what games have you actually pvped in?
pvp is not only in MMOs, your question sounded like you were asking what MMO pvp im doing right now, thats why i said none.
And i have pvped in most MMOs, even in ftp games like maplestory, they never give the feeling that you are suposed to get from a pvp game like counterstrike or Dota.
Wrong : Rogue max stun is 6 sec (cheap shot). With DR it's 6+3+1.5 = 10.5s.
(+ daze effects (gouge, blind, 6 sec) + snare (-70% speed).) I know it, as I was a Rogue stunning people for that long.
Harmstring is undispellable and the most used snare in arena. Plus, you're assuming that your "competent healer" has nobody under focus fire to take care of, which is impossible at high level. Trinket is 2 min cd. Any class snare can be reapplied in 1-1.5s, and I'm not sure your healer wants to engage a battle of who-will-dispell-the-fastest when his other buddy is being pound to the ground, etc, etc...
It's cute to see you redirect my argument to a potential lack of skill when you make such gross mistakes on core skills.
Case closed.
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I played a rogue at 2400 ratings. Kidney shot is 6 seconds without diminishing returns and is on a 25 second cool down, cheap shot is 4 seconds without diminishing returns and only usuable in stealth. Skills are reduced by 50% the first diminishing return, making the max possible stun time 7 seconds without the use of shadow dance. if you use Shadow dance you can apply an additional cheapshot that stuns for an additional 1 second as the diminishing return for the stun will be at 75% at that point, making it 8 seconds total, not 10. or 10.5. The other abilities you mentioned aren't stuns, so I won't even bother with those.
It's funny though as my math didn't have to be correct, if you understood my post, the duration of the stun is irrelavent, it's about your abilities to counter the stun if you or your teammates react quickly. I was simply pointing out that you can't get stuck in a 10 second stun, just something I pointed out.
Also, I played a priest at 2500 rating and frequently dispelled my partners and the enemy team while keeping my teammates healed so your point doesn't make sense because it's simply not true.
Lastly, I was talking about a root, not a snare/slow such as hamstring (which isn't the most used snare in the game..). And these can be negated when playing with certain classes (ie. paladin using freedom on player to negate all slow effects)
edit) Doing math you could potentially lock someone for 9 seconds with a kidney shot (6)+ cheap shot (2) + cheap shot(1) combo, but that is pretty useless considering you won't be able to do damage as you're spending all your energy locking someone down and can only be pulled off using shadow dance which is your main damage dealing ability, making the idea possible but impracticle
I somewhat disagree ... that its an all or nothing combo. It's not as if the warriors doesn't have any abilties to use to maintain pressure on someone when the combo is blown. He still has *plenty* of pressure to provide and the cooldowns aren't long enough that its an issue. Two cripples, stun , block , dash , pbae spins .... thats plenty to lean over into the next refresh on 100b. I still contest that Warriors have way to much base health, absurd amounts, where as every other profession has to build for survivability Warriors come into it naturally. The health buff was done due to whines about Warriors PvE survivability, it just happens to have pushed them into "OP" territory in PvP. ( Obviously IMO ) I would be fine with their burst damage, if they actually had to trade for it ... glass cannon and all, but they don't. The warrior is actually hampered by this build more than its assisted, I've seen plenty of unique Warrior builds played well that are viable but just don't deal the burst that this Alpha build does ... so its tossed out.
/shrug -- Keep in mind, I'm for the removal of ALL alpha builds from the game, the warriors just stands out because its just .... that simple , that everyones using it.
So you have pvped in most MMOs but somehow if you "value yourself" don't touch wow. Im wondering what MMOs you got your pvp knowledge from? Have you even played wow?
This has gotten pretty off topic, but for the sake of this current topic I will say this: To say Arena in WoW takes no skill is false. I'm not agreeing with every point Navac is trying to make here, but at high level play, Arena did take some sort of skill. It was mainly building a team that synergized well together (most were FotM teams), but a lot of it was just memorizing animations and reacting to those (fearing, freezing, trinketing, ect). It took a different sort of skill as GW2, but they do share a lot in how reacting to certain key abilities can win or lose you the fight. I never got to 2200, but my 3's team was close to 1800 from what I remember (been a LONG time), so I can speak from experience.
The bottom line is this: trying to bicker between eachother over which took more skill and which didn't is pointless. They are 2 different games altogether and not much is common between them. I thoroughly enjoy the PvP in GW2 because I believe outplaying an opponent/team based on precise placement of fields, clutch use of stability and knockbacks/knockdowns to get your ally back into the fight to swing it back in your favor and dodging at just the right time to avoid that Warrior burst makes it worth it for me.
I'm not a fan of WoW but it'd be silly to say it didn't take skill to perform well in arena.
The combat may not have been super complex to become decent at, but there were certainly plenty of nuances that set good players and great players apart from each other. All you had to see was the same players performing consistently well each season to see that much.
This game plays differently in pvp but I wouldn't say it's really much more complicated. It's true gear won't play a factor but honestly there was a large portion of pvpers in WoW that had the best gear too or close enough that it didn't matter. Still had consistent winners and losers and I expect to see the same here.
First, for the Rogue : Cheap Shot (4 sec), Kidney Shot 5 combo points (6 sec). DR resets after 15 sec. Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot are on the same DR table ( http://www.wowwiki.com/Diminishing_returns ), but Gouge and Blind are on 2 other separate DR families. Gouge is 5s daze, 10s CD, Blind 8s disorient, 1 min cd. + Vanish / Prep / start it over.
With this in mind, it is perfectly possible for one class alone to prevent someone to play for 10 sec straight, if not more. Now you put into that table other classes stuns, snares (as you played Rogue, how many times did you find yourself sluggishly trying to reach your target while being chain snared ? I remember it happened so often that it cut all the fun, trinket or not, dispell or not. Don't you remember the US forums when rogues were constantly complaining about their mobility because of that ?).
Do you really find this Incapacitating game something called skill ? Where it's up to the first who chain the most stuns/dazes/roots/dispell ? Seriously ? Where one healer can just put 3 Heals over time on one mate, and sit down for the rest of the match ? Where one class is constantly dominating 70% of seasons ?
To this point you can say that being the one who triggers his 3 min CD quicker to counter another 3 min cd can be called skill, for me it's just called whack-a-mole.
To stay on topic, GW2 deliberately suppressed everything that was dumbing down that skill you're talking about : stuff inflated stats and exaggerated crowd controls. If you think about this gamedesign decision alone you can't just simply say that GW2's skillcap is too limited (= below WoW arena) to be an e-sport.
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