Are sandbox fans living in the past?

laokoko · August 2012

Originally posted by Prenho
Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by alexanys1982

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by Kuinn

Sandbox fans are living in dreams because nothing worthy ever gets released. Arche Age save us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

I played this game already, its called Diablo 1.

Yes you've never played lineage 1, it died in west, but in east L1 is the best open world MMORPG, with almost 1 million subscribers nowadays. Eternal is the sequel to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4f25QJyy3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6IjHruj2-I

I think just by being the first main stream mmorpg in asia and alot of people is making a living from selling virtual goods is what make it popular.

We don't play L1 because it's sandbox. We just play it. Just like another so called sandbox 2D game we have in asia which made alot of money in this few years. It's have a p2w cashshop and alot of people treat it like a job from selling virtual good. Anyway in asia I never heard of anyone discussing sandbox on game forum.

L1 is P2P east, L2 is also P2P in east. There is no cash shop in these games there. L2 became F2P only in west along with Aion(also P2P in east). None of these games have cash shop in east because all of them are P2P there. Eternal will be P2P according to the news. But in west due to the lack of players L2/Aion had to become F2P, and L1 has shut down in NA. But in east all of these games are full of people.

I'm not sure what youa re trying to tell me. I live in asia. And played L1/L2/Aion on asia server before. I'm just saying during the economy crisis in Korea, alot of people lost their jobs. And you have alot of people make a living simply selling the equipment they find.

And you really don't hear people discuss the term sandbox in Asia game forum. It's alot more divided for the western mmorpg players.

Jut try to find and play, what country do you live? Most people that play L1-L2 are in korea-china-japan and taiwan.

I live in taiwan.

Prenho · August 2012

Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by alexanys1982

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by Kuinn

Sandbox fans are living in dreams because nothing worthy ever gets released. Arche Age save us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

I played this game already, its called Diablo 1.

Yes you've never played lineage 1, it died in west, but in east L1 is the best open world MMORPG, with almost 1 million subscribers nowadays. Eternal is the sequel to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4f25QJyy3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6IjHruj2-I

I think just by being the first main stream mmorpg in asia and alot of people is making a living from selling virtual goods is what make it popular.

We don't play L1 because it's sandbox. We just play it. Just like another so called sandbox 2D game we have in asia which made alot of money in this few years. It's have a p2w cashshop and alot of people treat it like a job from selling virtual good. Anyway in asia I never heard of anyone discussing sandbox on game forum.

L1 is P2P east, L2 is also P2P in east. There is no cash shop in these games there. L2 became F2P only in west along with Aion(also P2P in east). None of these games have cash shop in east because all of them are P2P there. Eternal will be P2P according to the news. But in west due to the lack of players L2/Aion had to become F2P, and L1 has shut down in NA. But in east all of these games are full of people.

I'm not sure what youa re trying to tell me. I live in asia. And played L1/L2/Aion on asia server before. I'm just saying during the economy crisis in Korea, alot of people lost their jobs. And you have alot of people make a living simply selling the equipment they find.

And you really don't hear people discuss the term sandbox in Asia game forum. It's alot more divided for the western mmorpg players.

Jut try to find and play, what country do you live? Most people that play L1-L2 are in korea-china-japan and taiwan.

I live in taiwan.

Try to find the site of Nc taiwan and try to find some informations about L1-L2(if both are P2p there). In korea and Japan I know that both games are P2P.

laokoko · August 2012

Originally posted by Prenho
Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by alexanys1982

Originally posted by Prenho

Originally posted by Kuinn

Sandbox fans are living in dreams because nothing worthy ever gets released. Arche Age save us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

I played this game already, its called Diablo 1.

Yes you've never played lineage 1, it died in west, but in east L1 is the best open world MMORPG, with almost 1 million subscribers nowadays. Eternal is the sequel to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4f25QJyy3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6IjHruj2-I

I think just by being the first main stream mmorpg in asia and alot of people is making a living from selling virtual goods is what make it popular.

We don't play L1 because it's sandbox. We just play it. Just like another so called sandbox 2D game we have in asia which made alot of money in this few years. It's have a p2w cashshop and alot of people treat it like a job from selling virtual good. Anyway in asia I never heard of anyone discussing sandbox on game forum.

L1 is P2P east, L2 is also P2P in east. There is no cash shop in these games there. L2 became F2P only in west along with Aion(also P2P in east). None of these games have cash shop in east because all of them are P2P there. Eternal will be P2P according to the news. But in west due to the lack of players L2/Aion had to become F2P, and L1 has shut down in NA. But in east all of these games are full of people.

I'm not sure what youa re trying to tell me. I live in asia. And played L1/L2/Aion on asia server before. I'm just saying during the economy crisis in Korea, alot of people lost their jobs. And you have alot of people make a living simply selling the equipment they find.

And you really don't hear people discuss the term sandbox in Asia game forum. It's alot more divided for the western mmorpg players.

Jut try to find and play, what country do you live? Most people that play L1-L2 are in korea-china-japan and taiwan.

I live in taiwan.

Try to find the site of Nc taiwan and try to find some informations about L1-L2(if both are P2p there).

Why are you telling me that? I know they are P2P.

Apraxis · August 2012

Originally posted by Creslin321
Okay let me start this off by saying that I AM a sandbox fan, but what I have noticed is that most sandbox fans, myself included, typically clamor for just a few features that have been around since the nineties. For example, we all want player housing, many of us want open-world PvP, we want crafting to be a dominant force, we want a very large amount of "gatherable" resources, we want to be able to own vehicles, etc. etc.

In fact, it seems like many developers are "living in the past" as well. Just about every fantasy sandbox game I have played seems like it's living in UO's shadow. Darkfall and MO are prime examples here. They really don't try to accomplish anything that UO already didn't do...and they sadly fall short in that department.

My point in all this is that I feel like the free-form ideals of sandbox games are really the ultimate future of MMORPGs, but we're never going to get there if we keep living in the past. Many ideas of the past are great and are still applicable, but devs and players alike have to start looking forward to new sandbox ideas, instead of just trying to replicate the deified games of the past. We can't have housing, crafting, and FFA-PvP be the end all be all of sandbox gaming if we ever want it to succeed.

Thoughts?

I personally think, that the most live in the future, they dream for a game only existent in their imagination. And that has been the case since early UO. You played it, thought, wow cool, wow, what could be all possible in the future, when the technology evolve. A real virtual world, where almost everything is possible.

But well.. technology evolved to some degree, but what happend to MMOs? They dumbed down feature wise. Ok, it is not that simple.. because in all honestly SWG and to some extend EvE where both games which tried to improve build upon the Ultima Online approach. (and even Ryzom after all)

But all of them (except EvE maybe) got problems in that process and finally failed for different reasons. Mostly not got the complex systems bug free and smooth. And after that most sandbox approaches got less and less features, and were less and less "complete".

Truth is, it is complex to forsee all sandbox elements, to forsee the possibilities and problems, and get all together in a bug free and smoth experience for the player. It looks like most sandboxes got rougher and rougher. You cant do a empty world, and the player will build it up afterwards. UO wasnt a empty world, neither SWG was it. There have to be a world, which then the player can change or expand. And more often than not the developer dont think far enough. Look at DayZ(ok, its not a MMO, but it fits well). You have your starting world, and you can get something around, repair/build a car, get a lot of equipment. But whats then? Just running around and randomly killing Players and Zombies alike? Until you die, and to build up your equipment once again? Thats just not enough.

And that is mostly true for almost all sandboxes which exist at the moment. No.. real sandboxer dont live in the past, they always have lived in the future, in their imagination, in their dreams, because their everything comes togethers and is possible. But once again technology have to evolve(KI in games in general is a joke.. and it would be even more possible), and not so much hardware, but much more software technology. Nowadays a lot of game developer are just designers, they dont know anything about software development, they dont develop systems up from the ground. They use what is available and try to design something withit. But you cant reinvent the wheel, with your old toolset, in which a wheel is not available.

A game like dwarf fortress is from the world behaviors, the world simulation more advanced than almost any MMO nowadays, and that is a pathetic display.

Atlan99 · August 2012

I think sandbox players are a vocal minority.

I think they make a lot of noise with their keyboards but very little impact with their wallets.

jpnz · August 2012

Originally posted by Atlan99
I think sandbox players are a vocal minority.

I think they make a lot of noise with their keyboards but very little impact with their wallets.

It isn't 'think' when it is factually (numerically) true.

I love when people bring up Elder Scrolls or DAYZ though.

Yeah, lets compare a single player game / free mod to an MMO!

Can I compare Elder Scrolls with COD: MAKE MONEY then?

Grimlock426 · August 2012

Originally posted by alexanys1982
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by Creslin321

I hope that the next developer sees GW2 and takes the next step to totally open up the world, add in some open world PvP, player housing in the world like UO but also maintains some quest givers here and there to help guide people who need it.

No open world pvp. That will certainly lose players. WOW use to have it ... and eliminated it because it was not popular.

I can proudly say I was around for the tarren mill / southshore battles.

R.I.P vanilla WoW, another like you there will never be.

Are you sure you guys aren't talking about UO? WoW has the same open world PvP it ever had on PvP servers. They haven't eliminated it because it wasn't popular.

And yes, I was also there during the TM/SS battles and they were a lot of fun!

laokoko · August 2012

People just stop doing the terran mill thing when they can hide in an instance and farm reknown or honor or whatever the point system is(I can't remember).

You can still do world pvp in wow(right? havn't play for years). It's just people don't do it, and there's no reward, to prevent people from kill trading etc.

valkerus · August 2012

YES. People voted with their wallets and they choose what we have today. Not being a troll just stating the absolute, undisputed truth. Nobody wants huge time sinks, nobody wants to deal with the asshats who have 23 hours a day to camp one mob for the vorpal sword.

That is not to say that some of the concepts couldn't work and work well. Player housing, deeper crafting, open world (with instanced dungeons), sure. Open world where you are a farmer, don't sell. Extreme open pvp, don't sell.

I think alot of older players look at their first experiences with SWG, EQ, UO with rose colored glasses.

Foomerang · August 2012

Originally posted by valkerus
YES. People voted with their wallets and they choose what we have today. Not being a troll just stating the absolute, undisputed truth. Nobody wants huge time sinks, nobody wants to deal with the asshats who have 23 hours a day to camp one mob for the vorpal sword.That is not to say that some of the concepts couldn't work and work well. Player housing, deeper crafting, open world (with instanced dungeons), sure. Open world where you are a farmer, don't sell. Extreme open pvp, don't sell. I think alot of older players look at their first experiences with SWG, EQ, UO with rose colored glasses.

Or you could take to heart what you yourself just wrote. Get rid of the bad stuff, bring back the good stuff.

Mikeha · August 2012

Originally posted by Prenho
I prefer a good world pvp game with a true community where players actually play in groups, and make alliances to fight over castles-territory control-hunting grounds and open bosses instead of these rush to level cap in 3 days questing and after sit in towns and wait for queues until the next instance, repeat it over and over to get better gear in order to make this same instance easier next time.

Grimlock426 · August 2012

Originally posted by valkerus
YES. People voted with their wallets and they choose what we have today. Not being a troll just stating the absolute, undisputed truth. Nobody wants huge time sinks, nobody wants to deal with the asshats who have 23 hours a day to camp one mob for the vorpal sword.

That is not to say that some of the concepts couldn't work and work well. Player housing, deeper crafting, open world (with instanced dungeons), sure. Open world where you are a farmer, don't sell. Extreme open pvp, don't sell.

I think alot of older players look at their first experiences with SWG, EQ, UO with rose colored glasses.

I agree with this for the most part.

I'll go a step further with my view of the "older" gamers being that I am one of them. Not only do the older gamers have rose colored glasses on for much of their recollection, but also at this point these older gamers are the ones who by and large don't have the time to devote to all the huge time sinks from games in the past. Older gamers are the ones who now have full time jobs, kids, responsibilities, etc. I have a theory that in many cases it's actually the older gamers who are pushing for the less grindy content and not so much the "kids" who have a lot of time.

Prenho · August 2012

For the world pvp MMOs, just one MMO like this is enough per generation, I don't need tons of sandboxes because I'm the kind of player that stay in one game for years it if offers what I want, I don't go to each new game like those players that move to each new themepark that releases every month.

I played Lineage 1 since 1999 until 2011(when L1 NA servers have shut down, and the game was P2P until its death in west), then I went to L2, I intend to stay in L2 until at least Lineage Etenal arrives here(I hope to play Eternal for 10 years like I did in L1) and so, I'll move to the next gen game(probably another Lineage).

Shoko_Lied · August 2012

I People who prefer sandbox titles simply have different tase in the type of mmo they like. Many people prefer the freedom of a sandbox over that of a themepark. Until a good sandbox mmo comes out, I simply have no mmorpg to play. Because frankly, most modern mmo's suck.

Shoko_Lied · August 2012

Originally posted by Atlan99
I think sandbox players are a vocal minority.

I think they make a lot of noise with their keyboards but very little impact with their wallets.

Because most teenagers these days only care about instant gratification. It's sad really. Throw away quality for something cheap and easy. Actually, it's been a long time since I've seen an mmo with even a half decent community. Most these days are filled with chuck norris and mom jokes.

Vocal minority? Probably. That doesn't mean it's worse in any way. Quality over quantity.

Prenho · August 2012

Originally posted by denshing
I People who prefer sandbox titles simply have different tase in the type of mmo they like. Many people prefer the freedom of a sandbox over that of a themepark. Until a good sandbox mmo comes out, I simply have no mmorpg to play. Because frankly, most modern mmo's suck.

As I said Lineage Eternal is a big promise because it is the sequel to my beloved L1(the best world pvp MMO I've played) and also has the same kind of gameplay that L1 has:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI

valkerus · August 2012

Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by valkerus
YES. People voted with their wallets and they choose what we have today. Not being a troll just stating the absolute, undisputed truth. Nobody wants huge time sinks, nobody wants to deal with the asshats who have 23 hours a day to camp one mob for the vorpal sword.

That is not to say that some of the concepts couldn't work and work well. Player housing, deeper crafting, open world (with instanced dungeons), sure. Open world where you are a farmer, don't sell. Extreme open pvp, don't sell.

I think alot of older players look at their first experiences with SWG, EQ, UO with rose colored glasses.

I agree with this for the most part.

I'll go a step further with my view of the "older" gamers being that I am one of them. Not only do the older gamers have rose colored glasses on for much of their recollection, but also at this point these older gamers are the ones who by and large don't have the time to devote to all the huge time sinks from games in the past. Older gamers are the ones who now have full time jobs, kids, responsibilities, etc. I have a theory that in many cases it's actually the older gamers who are pushing for the less grindy content and not so much the "kids" who have a lot of time.

Beleive me i think the same thing. I was one of those guys also. I camped the mobs, I ran the raids, i did that stuff. The problem is I had a ton of fun doing it AT THE TIME. I dont look back at these things as something i would ever want to repeat.

Great insight though with older gamers pushing what they can no longer do. I think the same thing. I am a fan of play what you enjoy. I'll be honest, i enjoy SWOTOR and couldn't get past the third login to GW2. I don't hate, or judge those that like or dislike what i'm into. The point is there is so much more in this world to be upset about other than what one developer did or did not do in there video game. This website is great for getting into the weeds of details on games and i read far more than i post because there are trully some people here with much more knowledge than i have of games or how games work. But the pure spite towards companies and posters that don't agree with eachother is just sad.

Magnetia · August 2012

Minecraft? Archage? There's gotta be some merit there.

saluk · August 2012

I kind of agree with the OP

Why do we have to choose between FFA pvp, and a very limited 2 or 3 faction system? Why not have a richer faction system, with alliances etc, but not in a totally freeform and easily gamed system? Each faction can have certain bonuses and restrictions. City guard has control over city defenses etc, but can't go too far away from the city. Thieves guild gets "quests" to try and rob people without being caught, but if caught a quest is generated for the guards and their location pinpointed. You can make something much more rigid than was done in games like UO that still provides the feeling of a living breathing world, and still allows emergent behavior.

Without excessive PKing and greifing.

WoW grew up from EQ in a lot of ways, and made theme parks viable, more accessible. If the same would have happened to the sandbox genre, we would have a more balanced mmo market I think. The big difference I see between WoW and EQ is that WoW has clear direction while EQ is fairly aimless. I think there are many ways a sandbox game could have the "WoW treatment" done to it without making it no longer a sandbox. Implement clear direction and goals so people aren't completely lost when they are plunked down, and it would make it a lot easier to get them into the game.

Or you could always take the minecraft route, and at least make the gameplay interesting enough to watch, that youtube can take the place of tutorials and get people hooked on the game before they even touch the controls.

laokoko · August 2012

I can't wait for Archage or WarZ to be out. So I can keep hearing sandboxers complaining about no game to play.

All those themepark/lobby game are crap too. We still play it. I think that's the difference.

Now who wouldn't want to play sandbox game? Living in a realistic free world to do whatever you want. Maybe such game just dont' exist.

Prenho · August 2012

Originally posted by saluk
I kind of agree with the OP

Why do we have to choose between FFA pvp, and a very limited 2 or 3 faction system? Why not have a richer faction system, with alliances etc, but not in a totally freeform and easily gamed system? Each faction can have certain bonuses and restrictions. City guard has control over city defenses etc, but can't go too far away from the city. Thieves guild gets "quests" to try and rob people without being caught, but if caught a quest is generated for the guards and their location pinpointed. You can make something much more rigid than was done in games like UO that still provides the feeling of a living breathing world, and still allows emergent behavior.

Without excessive PKing and greifing.

WoW grew up from EQ in a lot of ways, and made theme parks viable, more accessible. If the same would have happened to the sandbox genre, we would have a more balanced mmo market I think. The big difference I see between WoW and EQ is that WoW has clear direction while EQ is fairly aimless. I think there are many ways a sandbox game could have the "WoW treatment" done to it without making it no longer a sandbox. Implement clear direction and goals so people aren't completely lost when they are plunked down, and it would make it a lot easier to get them into the game.

Or you could always take the minecraft route, and at least make the gameplay interesting enough to watch, that youtube can take the place of tutorials and get people hooked on the game before they even touch the controls.

In Lineage the players make their own alliances and enemies, and because of this they are dynamic, not static like a faction game, I've seen a big alliance breaking up into smaller enemy ones and small enemy alliances becoming a big ally.

Murashu · August 2012

Originally posted by valkerus
Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by valkerus
YES. People voted with their wallets and they choose what we have today. Not being a troll just stating the absolute, undisputed truth. Nobody wants huge time sinks, nobody wants to deal with the asshats who have 23 hours a day to camp one mob for the vorpal sword.

That is not to say that some of the concepts couldn't work and work well. Player housing, deeper crafting, open world (with instanced dungeons), sure. Open world where you are a farmer, don't sell. Extreme open pvp, don't sell.

I think alot of older players look at their first experiences with SWG, EQ, UO with rose colored glasses.

I agree with this for the most part.

I'll go a step further with my view of the "older" gamers being that I am one of them. Not only do the older gamers have rose colored glasses on for much of their recollection, but also at this point these older gamers are the ones who by and large don't have the time to devote to all the huge time sinks from games in the past. Older gamers are the ones who now have full time jobs, kids, responsibilities, etc. I have a theory that in many cases it's actually the older gamers who are pushing for the less grindy content and not so much the "kids" who have a lot of time.

Beleive me i think the same thing. I was one of those guys also. I camped the mobs, I ran the raids, i did that stuff. The problem is I had a ton of fun doing it AT THE TIME. I dont look back at these things as something i would ever want to repeat.

Great insight though with older gamers pushing what they can no longer do. I think the same thing. I am a fan of play what you enjoy. I'll be honest, i enjoy SWOTOR and couldn't get past the third login to GW2. I don't hate, or judge those that like or dislike what i'm into. The point is there is so much more in this world to be upset about other than what one developer did or did not do in there video game. This website is great for getting into the weeds of details on games and i read far more than i post because there are trully some people here with much more knowledge than i have of games or how games work. But the pure spite towards companies and posters that don't agree with eachother is just sad.

I don't think age has anything to do with liking or disliking most gaming features. I love games with full looting, open world PvP, non-instanced dungeons, territory control, player housing...you know most of the features missing from AAA MMOs other than EVE. If something were to happen in my life that made it so that I had less time to play, I wouldn't just stop liking those features and start liking games like WoW or Rift. Hell I'm retiring in January after 22 years in the Army, my son goes off to college at the end of the month and the last thing I want is another MMO that can be burned through in a month due to no player driven content.

I was deployed to Afghanistan the month before Vanguard launched and although I was working 16 hour days for 15 months and rarely had a decent internet connection, it was Vanguard I chose to play when I had the time. I probably could have gained more levels or experienced more content in a casual friendly game, but those casual friendly games just dont have the gameplay I enjoy.

xpiher · August 2012

Yes and no. Sandbox players want those features but also more that have been introduced over the last 5 years such as dynamic events, raids, mini games, and etc.

What the sandbox community craves is a good fantasy sandbox like eve. Hopefully ccp will deliver with world of darkness and xlgames will deliver with archage.

Yodi2007 · August 2012

Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Icewhite
What makes you think it's just the sandbox fans, Cres?

I don't necessarily think it's just sandbox fans, I just noticed that I never really see sandbox games pushing the envelope.

I know people hate on themeparks, but I feel like they have actually made a lot of forward momentun with different class and combat mechanics, quest mechanics, etc. etc.

But sandboxes...it seems like we're all just hearkening for the good ole days with player housing, and meaningful crafting etc...I just want to see the sandbox concept get pushed forward.

A good sandbox could be made! this is what i came up with after a little thinking!

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

Joliust · August 2012

Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by DrunkWolf to me the games of the past are still light years ahead of the games we have now. the genre is going backwards. we are just now starting to see some hints of features that we had 10 years ago and companies act like its somthing new. take Tera for example, they act like dodgeing skills and makeing combat skill based is somthing new. not even close, Asherons Call did it back in 1999 and did it far better than Tera could even dream of doing it in 2012. thats just one small example of many hundreds that i can come up with. games from the past such as UO/AC were made by gamers for gamers to have fun in a WORLD not some instanced lobby with a dungeon finder because people are to lazy. the closest experience i have gotten to those days is in DayZ. you start off the game dropped into the world with a flash light and some bandages and are expected to figure the rest out on your own. and when you die you start all over. its a little more hardcore than any MMO i have played, but at least it doesnt hold your hand and walk you threw panzy land makeing sure you get everything you want spoon fed to you along the way. ( looking at you wow and all your clones )
That sums up my feelings pretty well. There's just something about being thrown into a world with nothing but a marj melon and survival knife that these games are lacking today, no sense of adventure or wonder. The term themepark has been taken far too literal by these companies as comparatively that's what they feel like as that's what they're creating, virtual disneylands.
The problem is that for every 1 of you there are 10 people who will go "what the heck am I supposed to do? This game is dumb, I'm out." They will quit and not come back. This is the dilemma for game designers and publishers. If it's a AAA development they can't afford to take the chance that people will quit and therefore the type of game you are describing is generally made by the indie companies and made on the cheap because they don't need a huge playerbase to make their money back. I think this is part of where the OP is going. There needs to be innovation and compromise. A game like UO launched now wouldn't be more than a niche game. They need to encorporate some "hand-holding" if you will at the beginning and probably use some guides, it's really a matter of how much or how little they use.
The OP agrees .
Lack of accessibility was a hallmark "feature" of older sandbox games, and is sadly, a hallmark feature of just about every newer one. There is nothing about an inaccessible game that makes it more sandboxy...it's quite possible to have a very accessible game that is free-form as well.
I agree that there needs to be "innovation and compromise" as you say. We need fresh sandbox concepts that don't require players to either spend a month doing menial tasks, or read a book on the internet to understand.

The problem between 'hardcore' and 'casual' mmoers I blame on the developers and partly on expectations. What the developers have been doing is dumbing down the entire game so that people who have a limited time or experience with MMOs can play on the same level as people who can play a great deal and are experienced.

In my opinion this is the wrong approach. There is no reason a game cannot have content that someone playing only a few hours a week can participate in. To use SWG as an example, a small group or soloer could run some missions out of a large city. If they had some ranger skills the could harvest the mobs and sell the mats. Easily something you could do for an hour and if you had to leave right away it was safe to just log off. However, you could also go to one of the uncivilized planets and spend all night doing missions. It was much more difficult, getting to the mission way points was much harder, but the rewards were greater. In both instances you have casual gamers and hardcore gamers enjoying the same mechanic in the same game. And when that hardcore gamer gets online and no one wants to run those difficult missions, he can still do what the casuals are doing, and when the casuals have some free time to play longer they can experience something different.

This is kind of a mess but TL:DR "You can have different content in your game for people who have different amount of time/dedication they can give to the game and it benefits everyone."

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Are sandbox fans living in the past?

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Are sandbox fans living in the past?

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