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[Column] General: Two ‘Failures’ and the Sandbox Revival

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Comments

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by JerYnkFan
    Excellent article.  My favorite MMO of all time is still SWG pre-NGE.  IMO what made that game for me was the interdependence of the economy and how it fostered that community.    It's still the only game where I participated in PvP with the epic battles at Anchorhead.  Problem with most MMOs these days is that the world you are in feels dead and all you do is run from one town to next completeting quests (BY YOURSELF).

    Added yellow text.  ;)

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Everywhere you said GW2 you sould have put TSW.

     

    Other than that good article.

    hmmm lets see how that would have worked:

    "TSW, at least to me, represents a sort of middle ground between the two subgenres. The game features a fully developer driven content pipeline, but the underlying game design and functionality of the event system inspires the same sort of wanderlust players often feel when playing a sandbox game. Events are repeatable and may even branch off in different ways and the experience earned from these events will be useful to players even at level cap. This is no doubt a very expensive and challenging form of delivering content to players, but it may serve as the beginnings of a renaissance of sandbox games that we may see over the next couple of years."

    Didnt know TSW had an event system. image

    My point is that he uses GW2 because of the event system, which he thinks represents that middle ground between the two subgenres.

    image


    image

  • FugglyFuggly Member Posts: 141
    Sandbox games are like Disco music, they will never die.

    image

  • drchocapicdrchocapic Member Posts: 27

    "WildStar doesn’t sound like a game developed in the era of World of Warcraft"

    Having played WildStar for a few hours when it was announced at gamescom last year, I can't help but find this statement hilarious.

  • AlotAlot Member Posts: 1,948


    Originally posted by Fuggly
    Sandbox games are like Disco music, they will never die.

    Star Wars Galaxies. Seems pretty dead to me. Oh, and add a few dozens of indie MMORPGs to that list.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Everywhere you said GW2 you sould have put TSW.

     

    Other than that good article.

    hmmm lets see how that would have worked:

    "TSW, at least to me, represents a sort of middle ground between the two subgenres. The game features a fully developer driven content pipeline, but the underlying game design and functionality of the event system inspires the same sort of wanderlust players often feel when playing a sandbox game. Events are repeatable and may even branch off in different ways and the experience earned from these events will be useful to players even at level cap. This is no doubt a very expensive and challenging form of delivering content to players, but it may serve as the beginnings of a renaissance of sandbox games that we may see over the next couple of years."

    Didnt know TSW had an event system. image

    My point is that he uses GW2 because of the event system, which he thinks represents that middle ground between the two subgenres.

    I think TSW is a massive missed opportunity at this point.  I see people in London desperately wanting to have a community, but the game just doesn't deliver.  The RP features are little more than a backdrop of places where you can *try* to RP with a crappy chat/emote system, and a themepark world where you can't even sit in a chair.  I don't know how they failed to realize that the kind of people that would be drawn to TSW would more likely fall into a more social gameplay scheme.

    The other problem is, I would say about 2/3's of the player base is already running nightmare dungeons repeatedly for gear.  Once they have the gear, which won't take long, the content chase will be on, and even with small monthly updates, Funcom won't be able to add enough content to keep them around.  The first update was little more than about 16 hours worth of gameplay if you take your time on purpose.  The game is easy, so even if you aren't a "content locust" it takes little time to get through it.  Again, they made the SWTOR mistake thinking people would just want to reroll factions.  Most won't.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • rdrakkenrdrakken Member Posts: 426
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by JerYnkFan
    Excellent article.  My favorite MMO of all time is still SWG pre-NGE.  IMO what made that game for me was the interdependence of the economy and how it fostered that community.    It's still the only game where I participated in PvP with the epic battles at Anchorhead.  Problem with most MMOs these days is that the world you are in feels dead and all you do is run from one town to next completeting quests (BY YOURSELF).

    Added yellow text.  ;)

     

     More like added false statement.

    You could solo UO, you could do all but the hardest guild quests in AC1, in AO the vast majority of the quests was based on if you were solo, or scaled if you accepted while grouped. In SWG, only a few things could not be soloed.

    Casual gamers are not a new thing, nor is the gameplay made for them. If anything is newer, its hardcore gameplay.

     
  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by rdrakken
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by JerYnkFan
    Excellent article.  My favorite MMO of all time is still SWG pre-NGE.  IMO what made that game for me was the interdependence of the economy and how it fostered that community.    It's still the only game where I participated in PvP with the epic battles at Anchorhead.  Problem with most MMOs these days is that the world you are in feels dead and all you do is run from one town to next completeting quests (BY YOURSELF).

    Added yellow text.  ;)

     

     More like added false statement.

    You could solo UO, you could do all but the hardest guild quests in AC1, in AO the vast majority of the quests was based on if you were solo, or scaled if you accepted while grouped. In SWG, only a few things could not be soloed.

    Casual gamers are not a new thing, nor is the gameplay made for them. If anything is newer, its hardcore gameplay.

     

    Yes, you *could* solo if you wanted to.  Most people chose not to, and even more people chose to make custom builds that didn't lend themselves well to soloing tougher mobs, but worked great in groups.  The game also rewarded groups with a little extra XP per player while hunting, which was an easy touch to keep people grouping.

    The point is, you had choices, and at least on the two servers I played on, people chose groups much more than they chose to solo.  I can't speak for your experience in the game, but me and about 100 people I knew personally on my server were constantly grouping, hanging out, building things together, talking, etc.  Today's themepark games are lonely experinces by design, and you really have to get people willing to go out of their way, for no added fun or benefit, to group.

    I know SWG from launch to NGE inside and out.  I've been writing about it for years[mod edit]

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Member UncommonPosts: 2,341

    I don't understand (and never did) why there can't be a game that does both well. Sandbox elements are difficult to make, but easy to maintain, themepark elements are easy to make, but hard to maintain. Have both, and now you have a self-sustaining game that also gives themeparkers a carrot to follow when that inevitable crawl in sandbox avatar progression starts to hit them. In other words, just because as a sandbox game I can build my own homes and castles and run around pillaging monster corpses for parts, doesn't mean it can't also have a dungeon to explore with some really neat gear, or a storyline. I want a mish-mash, I want what Skyrim and GW2 are doing, what games like Prototype, Assassin's Creed and Ultima (single player versions) did; there was a story, a rail you could follow if you chose too, but ultimately you could go wherever the hell you wanted, and do whatever you wanted. Then, when you had enough, you go back to the storyline, progress for a bit, take a break and go cause some havok/explore/craft/whatever.

     

    Too many sandbox games drop you off in the middle of nowhere with no real goal or incentive to spend your time in the game beyond simply existing. Too many themeparks are purely goal oriented and, when those goals are reached, the game ceases to exist and grindy carrots like raid gear are dangled to keep people subbing. There has got to be a happy medium in there somewhere.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

    I don't understand (and never did) why there can't be a game that does both well. Sandbox elements are difficult to make, but easy to maintain, themepark elements are easy to make, but hard to maintain. Have both, and now you have a self-sustaining game that also gives themeparkers a carrot to follow when that inevitable crawl in sandbox avatar progression starts to hit them. In other words, just because as a sandbox game I can build my own homes and castles and run around pillaging monster corpses for parts, doesn't mean it can't also have a dungeon to explore with some really neat gear, or a storyline. I want a mish-mash, I want what Skyrim and GW2 are doing, what games like Prototype, Assassin's Creed and Ultima (single player versions) did; there was a story, a rail you could follow if you chose too, but ultimately you could go wherever the hell you wanted, and do whatever you wanted. Then, when you had enough, you go back to the storyline, progress for a bit, take a break and go cause some havok/explore/craft/whatever.

     

    Too many sandbox games drop you off in the middle of nowhere with no real goal or incentive to spend your time in the game beyond simply existing. Too many themeparks are purely goal oriented and, when those goals are reached, the game ceases to exist and grindy carrots like raid gear are dangled to keep people subbing. There has got to be a happy medium in there somewhere.

    I agree.  One of the reasons SWG was looked upon fondly was that there was some hybrid elements to it.  There were some quest lines, and story-arc quests added later, though the engine wasn't designed for them and they were clunky.  Later expansions brought different things, such as Space and more themeparky areas such as Kashyyyk.  There was plenty of fun things to do that were sort of Farmville-like in the crafting lines, and the game gave power to social players in many areas, one of which was the Entertainers healing and buffing people on cantinas.

    It was a good try at a hybrid mix of things to do, but the strong points were more on the sandbox side.  Today, someone could actually make an "SWG 2" type hybrid game, and totally pull it off.

    Games like Xsyonhad promise, but it was all sandbox.  Combat was a joke, and there is no larger game element to drive people to care about combat, wars, etc.  When I logged into Xsyon and joined a group, I instantly started to see shades of SWG with the way people came together and had a much more interesting, creative and communal experience, but there still has to be a reason for all that stuff to exist, there has to be a "bad guy" out there who wants to take it all away.  Xsyon missed that boat.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832

    My own preference is for sandbox's and I look forward hopefully to see some quality ones coming onto the market in the next few years.

    That said, what I believe people are truely tired of is a lack of variety in choices and games that are sold largely based on thier hype and not thier merits. Both of those are killers in a crowded market (which is what we have for MMO's now). You've got to differentiate yourself from your competition significantly and you've got to deliver products that consistantly meet or exceed the customers expectations. Those are basic rules of business that apply universaly to crowded markets and MMO's are no exception. Somehow publishers seem to have forgotten that.

    It looks like there is a good opportunity for sandbox's now simply because they are an underserved market segment. There clearly is a significant demand there, even if it's true that it's a minority market segment, and there are very few quality offerings to meet that demand.

    I don't think that neccesarly bodes a deathknell for new themeparks though (even though I'm not a themepark fan) it just means that those games need to find a way to differentiate themselves significantly from thier competition and they need to be able to meet the expectations of thier customers. What CAN'T happen is that when the player comes into your game, they feel like they are pretty much playing the same game they just left and they can't feel like the game they are playing doesn't remotely resemble the expectations your marketing and PR have setup for it.  That's a recipie for loosing customers quickly.

  • MyriaMyria Member UncommonPosts: 699
    Originally posted by winter

      Surely in the end the Author can come up with better then wishfull thinking and the arguement that because one SW sandbox game failed and one SW theme park game failed its gonna lead to a revival of sandbox games. Thatt just doesn't make any logical sense

    Pretty much this. The article is one overlong non sequitor, but since it somehow reaches a conclusion many of the denizens of this wretched hive of scum and villany want to believe, people are falling all over each other to sing the OP's praises.

  • gravesworngravesworn Member Posts: 324
    It all depends on the community with sandbox games. Issues like griefing and the such have the potential to be remedied by the player base. I hope we get a massive sandbox soon.
  • ZylaxxZylaxx Member Posts: 2,574

    Dear MMO Developers, you want retention and you want a growing subscriber base do these things:

    • Huge, i'm talking at least 15 sq km size world, if not larger.
    • hundreds if not thousands of caves, dungeons, villas, and other mini-boss hideouts
    • open ended questing where the player seeks out his content of choice.
    • crafting not tied to leveling or combat
    • open world housing
    • non-linear
    • choice of PvP flagging on non-pvp worlds
    • FFA no faction PvP on red servers.
    • Dynamic loot system not tied to raiding
     
    Do those things and profit, no applause needed and no royalties required just get busy and make World Of Asheron's Skyrim and watch the subs and players roll in.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Member CommonPosts: 1,096

    MMO Game Developers need to comprehend the fact that WoW was a fluke. A Perfect Storm so to speak.

    It came at the right time, with the right features.

     

    Will it happen again? Sure, but not by repeating what Blizzard did.

    The only way to beat WoW is to NOT be like WoW.

     

    Different. Unique.

    They need to leave the Themeparks and start thinking Outside the Sandbox

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by winter

      Surely in the end the Author can come up with better then wishfull thinking and the arguement that because one SW sandbox game failed and one SW theme park game failed its gonna lead to a revival of sandbox games. Thatt just doesn't make any logical sense

    Pretty much this. The article is one overlong non sequitor, but since it somehow reaches a conclusion many of the denizens of this wretched hive of scum and villany want to believe, people are falling all over each other to sing the OP's praises.

    What I find most amusing about you is that you believe your point of view, the themepark preference, is the only valid one despite mounting evidence that this isn't true.  It's ok you know.  You don't have to feel threatened.  Themeparks aren't going away.  What the author is basically saying is that there is room for a AAA sandbox/hybrid, and there is evidence out in the gaming world to support this fact.  The "wretched hive" of people on this site who agree with him are some of those people.  The people playing in games such as Day Z, which is much more sandbox than it is thempark or even FPS might enjoy it. People who enjoy building games such as all those millions on Facebook, and the millions playing Minecraft and the clones may also enjoy a deeper sandbox experience because they love creating things that other people can see and try.

    Not everyone wants to jump in and have their hand held through a contrived linear themepark.  We've done that, for several years now, and we are tired of it.  Sandbox / hybrids offer a much more dynamic gaming world that doesn't have to rely completely on content updates.  They can offer the best of both worlds, really.

    Those of us interested in what the author is saying want more 'virtual world', and less Disneyland.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • AkruxAkrux Member UncommonPosts: 56

    Personally I am looking forward to The Repopulation. Its a sandbox sci-fi MMO without classes or levels. It has open world multi-sided PvP and a strong crafting side. Improve your skills by using them.

    Still in alpha but hopefully coming in 2013 to a computer near you. I am not a fan boy or a shill for the devs. Just a player looking for a good MMO.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596
    Originally posted by Akrux

    Personally I am looking forward to The Repopulation. Its a sandbox sci-fi MMO without classes or levels. It has open world multi-sided PvP and a strong crafting side. Improve your skills by using them.

    Still in alpha but hopefully coming in 2013 to a computer near you. I am not a fan boy or a shill for the devs. Just a player looking for a good MMO.

    I rather enjoy being a bit of a "shill", though I am a reasonable shill with more hope than loyalty.  The Repopulation looks great on paper, but still has to prove itself.  I support them because they are on the right track in my opinion, they are a great group of developers who are working hard, and the game appeals to me.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,706

    Seems like LA just dumped all over themselves... first they mutilate their sandbox game to try to get with the WoW times... then the spend a few hundred million to try and make a different WoW. They would probably have been better off keeping SWG as it was before the NGE.

    Sucks to be them.

  • rdrakkenrdrakken Member Posts: 426
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Yes, you *could* solo if you wanted to.  Most people chose not to, and even more people chose to make custom builds that didn't lend themselves well to soloing tougher mobs, but worked great in groups.  

     Nice...I chose not to solo in SWTOR, a game that basically is a SRPG. Your point isnt that you dont have a choice, the point is that you now play as if you dont. Many of the games back then were as easy as they are now...the only thing that has changed is that there are more whiney players.

  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Member UncommonPosts: 689
    For once I actually agree with everything you said Mike B. lol

    Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
    Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
    Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.

  • ThemePorkThemePork Member Posts: 312
    Originally posted by DSWBeef
    Theres to many people who wont play sandboxes due to FFA pvp and full loot me included.

     

    THERE IS NO RULE THAT SAYS THAT SANDBOX GAMES MUST HAVE FFA PVP OR PLAYER LOOTING.

    DID SWG HAVE FFA PVP??? NO!

    DID SWG HAVE PLAYER LOOTING??? NO!

    (caps to emphasize rage)

    Infact there doesn't need to be any PvP at all, or even combat, for a game to qualify as a sandbox MMO. Look at A Tale in the Desert.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by jusomdude
    Seems like LA just dumped all over themselves... first they mutilate their sandbox game to try to get with the WoW times... then the spend a few hundred million to try and make a different WoW. They would probably have been better off keeping SWG as it was before the NGE.Sucks to be them.

    LA didn't spend any money on SWToR. I'm sure they have operating expenses, but they're basically just collecting money from the IP on that deal.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas Member Posts: 468

    " EVE Online, the most successful sandbox of them all, did indeed manage to grow as large as it did while in World of Warcraft’s massive shadow"

    Long live Eve!!! The baddest motherf*cker of them all!

    Where's the any key?

  • AlotAlot Member Posts: 1,948


    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Dear MMO Developers, you want retention and you want a growing subscriber base do these things:
    • Huge, i'm talking at least 15 sq km size world, if not larger.
     

    Zylaxx, most MMORPGs are at least 15 sq km size. Your minimum for an MMORPG is a world slightly smaller than Oblivion's.

    Linky.

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