I'd argue that the single greatest hallmark of roleplaying is freedom. Freedom to do whatever you want to do within the rules of the game. What I mean by that is you can't just decide your character is going to fly out of the blue, although if you're playing a supers game, that's debatable. In a good roleplaying game, you are limited only by your imagination. If you want to go left, you go left. If you want to go right, you go right. If you want to stop and sit down and not move, you can do that too.
However, in MMOs, you have very little actual freedom in what you do. The game is built around killing things. If you don't kill things, you are at a serious disadvantage in leveling. Most XP is tied up in racking up a body count. If you decide, for instance, to play a Jainist character and refuse to ever kill anything, from the meanest monster to the most innocent dragonfly, how far will you actually progress in the game? Not very far. These games exist for the sake of combat. If you choose to opt out of combat for roleplaying reasons, there's no reason to actually play these games. There's really only one viable path through any MMO out there and that's through combat. It's like pretending you can play Halo by making peace with the Covenant. You just don't get that option.
People consistently make the mistake of assuming tabletop RPG is the same term as videogame RPG, when it fact both terms have long histories with accumulated expectations. And in the last 25+ years of videogame RPGs, those games haven't been characterized by a huge amount of freedom. They have more freedom than some games, but it's not like you could go anywhere and do anything in Ultima 3 or Sword of Fargoal or Final Fantasy 3 or Dragon Quest or Baldur's Gate or...you get the idea.
There's 25 years worth of RPGs I could name where the overwhelming majority of them have constraints which are basically in line with modern themepark MMORPGs.
That right there is something that has already been pointed out in this thread. But noooo.... it's too grindy to read through all the text!
People consistently make the mistake of assuming tabletop RPG is the same term as videogame RPG, when it fact both terms have long histories with accumulated expectations. And in the last 25+ years of videogame RPGs, those games haven't been characterized by a huge amount of freedom. They have more freedom than some games, but it's not like you could go anywhere and do anything in Ultima 3 or Sword of Fargoal or Final Fantasy 3 or Dragon Quest or Baldur's Gate or...you get the idea.
There's 25 years worth of RPGs I could name where the overwhelming majority of them have constraints which are basically in line with modern themepark MMORPGs.
It just means that these are not RPGs. They ought to come up with a different term.
People consistently make the mistake of assuming tabletop RPG is the same term as videogame RPG, when it fact both terms have long histories with accumulated expectations. And in the last 25+ years of videogame RPGs, those games haven't been characterized by a huge amount of freedom. They have more freedom than some games, but it's not like you could go anywhere and do anything in Ultima 3 or Sword of Fargoal or Final Fantasy 3 or Dragon Quest or Baldur's Gate or...you get the idea.
There's 25 years worth of RPGs I could name where the overwhelming majority of them have constraints which are basically in line with modern themepark MMORPGs.
It just means that these are not RPGs. They ought to come up with a different term.
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
Yeah, because they're right. The video game industry co-opted the term "RPG" from PnP games in hopes of appealing to them in the early days. It's virtually impossible to actually roleplay in these games, at best you can do a shallow version of "this is my character, I can talk funny".
That's not roleplaying.
With the full co-operation and licensing from PnP RPG like AD&D.
I am sure there was this big debate about what RPG should be in those days, not unlike today's debate about MMO.
BUT ... the term sticks. Would anyone consider Baldur Gates NOT a RPG? Ultima not a RPG? Even the hack-n-slash Action RPGs are pretty much standard terminology. This is a perfect example of things changes, progress made, and language uses evolve.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I believe crafting is much more of a virtual world feature, so it belongs in the MMORPG.
The thing is, I see a lot of players complaining about the "grind" of either leveling, looting, or crafting, and sometimes all of them. And I have to ask myself, what the hell are you doing playing these games?
The sad thing is, MMORPG makers are starting to cater to these complainers, taking away the things that makes RPG's RPG's.
Story can pretty much be forgotten about since the spacebar was player's favorite key in SWTOR.
Gear is on it's way out with games like GW2.
Leveling is pretty much the only thing we're left with, and I think it's probably gonna be on it's way out shortly also.
So, what does that leave us with? Something akin to street fighter online where you just log in to beat the shit out of mobs/players for I'm not sure what exactly. The "fun" of it I guess.
It's like anything that takes a little effort is frowned upon by the masses, and it's a damn shame.
Funny part is, most people on this forum will probably agree with you. But when you get down to specifics...
"partying"...bah its a hassle, why should my leveling depend on other people?
"Grinding".. I want to have fun, I don't want to sit and kill the same thing over and over..
"questing" How many times do I have to kill X, or deliver A to B...its stupid!
"crafting"....meh its aight, but the best gear should be from dungeons! (which BTW makes crafting pointless)
"traveling" ....I want to jump right into the action! I don't have to have to spend 20 minutes walking to a area to playt he game!
"housing".. housing is aight, but I want Devs to spend more time making cool content, not houses..
Seeing that the classic role-playing community built the video game market I personally have no problem with some unenlightened people thinking that "crafting" is the pinnacle of role-playing these days.
However if people are discussing how to make games more enjoyable, more engaging and more social then it is natural that people bring up that there is more to role-playing games than World of Warcraft clones.
I don't remember having to grind in the oldschool RPGs - Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment etc.
But yes I agree that RPGs are all about character progression and that sometimes turns into grinding. If levelling, gearing up etc. are removed then it simply turns into a 3rd person action game.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Seeing that the classic role-playing community built the video game market I personally have no problem with some unenlightened people thinking that "crafting" is the pinnacle of role-playing these days.
However if people are discussing how to make games more enjoyable, more engaging and more social then it is natural that people bring up that there is more to role-playing games than World of Warcraft clones.
Clearly I said crafting is the pinnacle of MMOs.
PnP games were the inspiration for RPG's. VRPGs are not meant to be a simulated PnP game. Clearly I'm unenlightned for not playing PnPs. I bow to your superiority.
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
Yeah, because they're right. The video game industry co-opted the term "RPG" from PnP games in hopes of appealing to them in the early days. It's virtually impossible to actually roleplay in these games, at best you can do a shallow version of "this is my character, I can talk funny".
That's not roleplaying.
The video role-playing game industy developed the way it did because of the way computers and Computer Science developed during the history of classic role-playing games.
Early video role-playing games could not compete with the kind of games a kid with a high reading-age could produce wifh his friends with some books, dice, figures and some imagination from as early as the 70s. So instead the implementation was partial and people have become attached to, and argue over, these bowdlerised games.
The common-place MMO frozen, fixed plots still have some element of genuine role-playing they are just, well, inflexible.
Seeing that the classic role-playing community built the video game market I personally have no problem with some unenlightened people thinking that "crafting" is the pinnacle of role-playing these days.
However if people are discussing how to make games more enjoyable, more engaging and more social then it is natural that people bring up that there is more to role-playing games than World of Warcraft clones.
Clearly I said crafting is the pinnacle of MMOs.
PnP games were the inspiration for RPG's. VRPGs are not meant to be a simulated PnP game. Clearly I'm unenlightned for not playing PnPs. I bow to your superiority.
You haven't really articulated what your problem is, not to me at least, other than your hate of classic role-playing.
You seem to complain that people are bored with crafting but declare that other crafting-related activity such as trading and selling is boring to you.
If you want to understand good game-play, consider the human experience rather than just complain.
What exactly do you want to see in the MMO games that aren't there?
I don't hate PnP games, since I haven't even played them to find out. What I don't like is PnP gamers trying to come in and dictate the coarse of video game RPGs to relive their glory days of PnPing.
You have to consider how well the features you want would really work in a modern MMO, and most of them just would not go well with the medium.
Yeah, ArcheAge looks pretty awesome, and even though The Repopulation looks like a successor to SWG, Indie MMO devs worry me but I'll keep an eye on it.
Another thing that sucks is we have no idea when these games are releasing.
With mmorpgs, true rpg fans respect and understand the statistical nature of the games with stats and gear and currency. They should also expect some kind of "grind" because when time is assigned to a task(character progression) its inevitable there will be "grind".
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I believe crafting is much more of a virtual world feature, so it belongs in the MMORPG.
The thing is, I see a lot of players complaining about the "grind" of either leveling, looting, or crafting, and sometimes all of them. And I have to ask myself, what the hell are you doing playing these games?
The sad thing is, MMORPG makers are starting to cater to these complainers, taking away the things that makes RPG's RPG's.
Story can pretty much be forgotten about since the spacebar was player's favorite key in SWTOR.
Gear is on it's way out with games like GW2.
Leveling is pretty much the only thing we're left with, and I think it's probably gonna be on it's way out shortly also.
So, what does that leave us with? Something akin to street fighter online where you just log in to beat the shit out of mobs/players for I'm not sure what exactly. The "fun" of it I guess.
It's like anything that takes a little effort is frowned upon by the masses, and it's a damn shame.
Funny part is, most people on this forum will probably agree with you. But when you get down to specifics...
"partying"...bah its a hassle, why should my leveling depend on other people?
"Grinding".. I want to have fun, I don't want to sit and kill the same thing over and over..
"questing" How many times do I have to kill X, or deliver A to B...its stupid!
"crafting"....meh its aight, but the best gear should be from dungeons! (which BTW makes crafting pointless)
"traveling" ....I want to jump right into the action! I don't have to have to spend 20 minutes walking to a area to playt he game!
"housing".. housing is aight, but I want Devs to spend more time making cool content, not houses..
and it just goes on and on..
This is the most truthful post ever, not only will there be Million's of different views, most of them overlaps eachother.
Regardless of what we think, it all depends on the Developer to make up their mind on their game on what they want to do.
Just like real life, We have Limits to what each can do, but our limitations are hidden behind the false Freedom that we all think we have. We are bound by Laws, Moral Ethic codes, Family, and Financial means with our Freedom yet we feel like we have real choice in life.
That is what Game Developers must create, a system which mimics Real life freedom.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Oh you must be referring to where I said sitting in a house waiting for customers would be boring.
Trading and selling is fine when that's what you're actually doing.
Sitting in your store for who knows how long while waiting for a customer to come along would be boring to no end.
And realistically would not be a feature even worth implementing.
Worked in SWG because there were NPC vendors that you could hire.
Glad to see to you were able to read or remember your own posts
When you make pronouncements about "What is role-playing in Video role-playing games" you do realise that you are talking about just MMOs rather than other styles of Video role-playing games such as the latest edition of Elder Scrolls?
The latest version of Elder Scrolls is as flexible, if not more flexible in a role-playing sense, than Nethack and it is graphical and it includes the things you call role-playing within MMOs. The overall plot largely comes from the classic role-playing game, RuneQuest, which is why it is so detailed and modern programming allowed that flexibity.
For someone who openly claims to have no experience of classic role-playing you are very vocal about the parts that you consider to be negative about them. It would be like me "dissing" Eastern European films, or differing brands of bubblegum, without even bothering to read about them first.
If you are angry about people in their 40s playing MMOs, consider how people in their 40s, who also play MMOs, feel about youngsters telling them that they are the newcomers! I can't speak for my peers but I played the first MMOs and the games that spawned MMOs, from the classic role-playing games right through to Video RPGs.
Classic role-playing games are not about just "pen and paper" but are instead about people getting together using direct human interaction, well-defined rules and the human imagination to play a game. It is a platform that still rivals the most expensive computer a consumer can buy.
Modern video role-playing games are far closer to the classic experience than MMOs. There is no reason that advanced MMOs won't be able to use those advances to make a better MMO.
A better MMO where people may actually agree with you that crafting is interesting.
For the record, when I played EQ2 I experimented with crafting and one of my complaints was that crafting I really wanted to do (Woodworker and Provisioner mainly) didn't fit with the character class I wanted to play.
The video role-playing game industy developed the way it did because of the way computers and Computer Science developed during the history of classic role-playing games.
Early video role-playing games could not compete with the kind of games a kid with a high reading-age could produce wifh his friends with some books, dice, figures and some imagination from as early as the 70s. So instead the implementation was partial and people have become attached to, and argue over, these bowdlerised games.
The common-place MMO frozen, fixed plots still have some element of genuine role-playing they are just, well, inflexible.
We understand why they did it, they were trying to attract the PnP RPG crowd to play their games so they used some of the terminology as an incentive. That doesn't change the fact that there really is very little in common between a PnP RPG and a computer RPG. It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters what it is. Unfortunately today, there are lots of people who have never had any kind of RPG experience except behind a keyboard and just have no clue how little their pixelated warriors allow them to actually roleplay because they have no actual frame of reference.
It just means that these are not RPGs. They ought to come up with a different term.
What part of '25+ years of videogame RPGs being this way' was unclear?
You're a bit late to the party to try to fight that fight.
I'm not trying to get them to change anything, but words still have meanings and using the wrong terminology, no matter how widespread it is, is still wrong, especially when people's entire arguments in these threads is "I talk funny in a game, therefore I'm roleplaying". It's about as silly as saying "I make VROOM VROOM noises when I walk, therefore I'm driving a car!"
With the full co-operation and licensing from PnP RPG like AD&D.
I am sure there was this big debate about what RPG should be in those days, not unlike today's debate about MMO.
BUT ... the term sticks. Would anyone consider Baldur Gates NOT a RPG? Ultima not a RPG? Even the hack-n-slash Action RPGs are pretty much standard terminology. This is a perfect example of things changes, progress made, and language uses evolve.
It doesn't matter who consented, any more than a bicycle manufacturer getting consent from airline manufacturers to call them airplanes. Getting permission to misuse a word doesn't stop the word from being misused.
Would I think any of those games are RPGs? No, because the term "RPG" in video games does stick, but the expanded version "role playing game" does not. They're just not "role playing games", they are "RPGs". The problem comes when people try to conflate the two and act like what you can do in a "role playing game", you can do in an "RPG", or worse, what you can do in an "RPG" is the same experience you get in a "role playing game".
These past few arguments being made have made me wonder how many people have actually role played in an RPG.
Here's the thing: Pen and Paper games aren't all that special. You know why? They're just a collection of rules to make it easier for someone to inspire a character. It baffles me that people honestly believe there is a solid disconnect between P&P role-playing and video game role-playing.
YES, video games obviously have more constrictions (thereby some may argue do not grant you the best experience), but you can still do many fantastic things in these virtual worlds with a sense of uniqueness. I'm talking about VRPGs like Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls, etc.
Role-playing is not something ANYONE, regardless of the medium presented, can throw upon you. The player has to make the concious choice to role-play, and in that the options are nearly limitless.
Everyone who is complaining about progression as an indicator of RPGs, let me reassure you that ideal has NEVER been a primary philosophy of role playing.
And yes, I focus on role playing because these are role playing games.
In my experience, MMO's have given players many more opportunities to engage this experience, almost as well as P&P. Legitimate RPing exists in a community, hence why P&P became a sort of cult classic early on. Games like Elder Scrolls suppliment this need by making the community driven by the computer, which is fine on the surface level but ultimately you can see through the thin veil.
MMO's give you an organic community like the old days. If you're strictly talking about game mechanics like level progression, crafting or plot, you have lost the real foundation of role-playing UNLESS you are arguing for those mechanics in such a way that it binds you (and your character) to the community you wish to RP with.
The video role-playing game industy developed the way it did because of the way computers and Computer Science developed during the history of classic role-playing games.
Early video role-playing games could not compete with the kind of games a kid with a high reading-age could produce wifh his friends with some books, dice, figures and some imagination from as early as the 70s. So instead the implementation was partial and people have become attached to, and argue over, these bowdlerised games.
The common-place MMO frozen, fixed plots still have some element of genuine role-playing they are just, well, inflexible.
We understand why they did it, they were trying to attract the PnP RPG crowd to play their games so they used some of the terminology as an incentive. That doesn't change the fact that there really is very little in common between a PnP RPG and a computer RPG. It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters what it is. Unfortunately today, there are lots of people who have never had any kind of RPG experience except behind a keyboard and just have no clue how little their pixelated warriors allow them to actually roleplay because they have no actual frame of reference.
The classic role-playing scene has actually spawned a lot of people who work in the computing industry. Even an eleven-year-old who started playing classic role-playing games in 1977 would be able to take an degree in Computer Science during the 80s and subsequently work in the computing industry. Learning to run a game with dice, rules and mental arithmatic is actually a reasonable way to prepare to learn how to program - there is plenty of synergy.
So the people who were playing classic role-playing gamers were amongst the people writing the computer role-playing game, which intially were very limited in what they could do - in part due to how the limted ways a computer could interact with a human during those early times.
Nowdays single-player computer role-playing games, such as the latest version of the Elder Scrolls, are far more flexible and probably come closer to what those original video game programmers would have wanted to program.
Typical MMOs are branched off older single-player computer role-playing games, which is why they are so primitive in some regards. However the range of MMOs is actually very varied and if a MMO player knows the games that are available whithin even this seemingly narrow range, he or she can experience role-playing closer to the classic experience.
If someone starts to think crafting, trading and other non-combat activities are important to an MMO then they are definitely moving in the right direction as they are thinking about game-play beyond mere hack and slay combat.
I would agree that building communities in an MMO is very important - it makes the game more sociable, encourages people to stay playing a game and improves the chance that the random character you might meet is worth interacting with.
The classic role-playing scene has actually spawned a lot of people who work in the computing industry. Even an eleven-year-old who started playing classic role-playing games in 1977 would be able to take an degree in Computer Science during the 80s and subsequently work in the computing industry. Learning to run a game with dice, rules and mental arithmatic is actually a reasonable way to prepare to learn how to program - there is plenty of synergy.
So the people who were playing classic role-playing gamers were amongst the people writing the computer role-playing game, which intially were very limited in what they could do - in part due to how the limted ways a computer could interact with a human during those early times.
Nowdays single-player computer role-playing games, such as the latest version of the Elder Scrolls, are far more flexible and probably come closer to what those original video game programmers would have wanted to program.
Typical MMOs are branched off older single-player computer role-playing games, which is why they are so primitive in some regards. However the range of MMOs is actually very varied and if a MMO player knows the games that are available whithin even this seemingly narrow range, he or she can experience role-playing closer to the classic experience.
If someone starts to think crafting, trading and other non-combat activities are important to an MMO then they are definitely moving in the right direction as they are thinking about game-play beyond mere hack and slay combat.
Just because people who used to PnP game made computer games doesn't mean they were successful in translating that experience to the computer world. It may be just me but I don't think it is possible to have the same essential experience you get sitting around a table with real people, with a human GM, as you can get in an online world with computer AI. The fundamental problem is that the computer is inherently limited in what it can do. It cannot react to the unexpected, therefore it simply does not allow the unexpected. You ride it's rails whether you want to or not.
However, in a good PnP RPG, you're not stuck to anything but basic physics in the game. I've played many characters that never once engaged in any form of combat, yet had long, interesting existences. Whether or not the majority of PnP RPG players ever rise above the simplistic "duh, I swing my Sword of Kewlness +2 at the dragon", the ability to go farther is there, it is possible to do so much more.
You can't do that in an MMO no matter how hard you try.
The difference between the two is fundamental. An MMO is a game. The purpose of the game, like it or not, is to kill things, or aid in killing things. You kill, you get loot, you get XP, you level up, you get better gear, etc. In that, it's really not any different than your typical single-player FPS. In Halo, you kill things, you get new weapons and ammo, you get better at things, etc. In Dead Space, you get new weapons and ammo, you develop skills, you craft better weapons, etc. If you take out the multi-player aspects, most MMOs are pretty much like Skyrim, although Skyrim is actually a lot freer than most MMOs. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm saying it's a true thing.
However, with a true PnP RPG, you start off with a blank slate. There is no inherent purpose in an RPG. The only point of playing is to have a good time. You're not pushed down a pre-programmed path with no deviation like you are in a computer game. The players make a definite difference in the game world, it changes depending on their actions. That's simply not true in an MMO. No matter what you do, you are not going to make any kind of lasting effect on the game world because everything that happens, you're not the only one who does it, everyone else does too! With very few exceptions in an MMO, everyone does the same thing. MMOs are inherently limited because the world of an MMO is hard-coded instead of fluid like a PnP RPG.
That's not saying MMOs are bad, just that the two are inherently different experiences, caused by their fundamentally different natures.
We understand why they did it, they were trying to attract the PnP RPG crowd to play their games so they used some of the terminology as an incentive. That doesn't change the fact that there really is very little in common between a PnP RPG and a computer RPG. It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters what it is. Unfortunately today, there are lots of people who have never had any kind of RPG experience except behind a keyboard and just have no clue how little their pixelated warriors allow them to actually roleplay because they have no actual frame of reference.
And why should they? I played a little bit of PnP RPG (how about that? PnP RPG for the old table top games, RPG for CRPG) when i was in grad school ... and it was not a better experience than CRPG.
I was playing AD&D, and in particular, the accounting is just horribly cumbersome without a computer. Combat slows to a crawl with die rolls and stuff. Sure it is a bit more free form, but you are still mostly casting magic missiles and fireballs at monsters.
Personally, i would be happy to forgo that "roleplaying" just to get the combat game more playable. There is a reason why CRPG is 10000x more successful/popular than PnP RPGs.
Comments
That right there is something that has already been pointed out in this thread. But noooo.... it's too grindy to read through all the text!
Maybe you'll have better luck!
It just means that these are not RPGs. They ought to come up with a different term.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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/facepalm
With the full co-operation and licensing from PnP RPG like AD&D.
I am sure there was this big debate about what RPG should be in those days, not unlike today's debate about MMO.
BUT ... the term sticks. Would anyone consider Baldur Gates NOT a RPG? Ultima not a RPG? Even the hack-n-slash Action RPGs are pretty much standard terminology. This is a perfect example of things changes, progress made, and language uses evolve.
What part of '25+ years of videogame RPGs being this way' was unclear?
You're a bit late to the party to try to fight that fight.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Funny part is, most people on this forum will probably agree with you. But when you get down to specifics...
"partying"...bah its a hassle, why should my leveling depend on other people?
"Grinding".. I want to have fun, I don't want to sit and kill the same thing over and over..
"questing" How many times do I have to kill X, or deliver A to B...its stupid!
"crafting"....meh its aight, but the best gear should be from dungeons! (which BTW makes crafting pointless)
"traveling" ....I want to jump right into the action! I don't have to have to spend 20 minutes walking to a area to playt he game!
"housing".. housing is aight, but I want Devs to spend more time making cool content, not houses..
and it just goes on and on..
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Seeing that the classic role-playing community built the video game market I personally have no problem with some unenlightened people thinking that "crafting" is the pinnacle of role-playing these days.
However if people are discussing how to make games more enjoyable, more engaging and more social then it is natural that people bring up that there is more to role-playing games than World of Warcraft clones.
I don't remember having to grind in the oldschool RPGs - Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment etc.
But yes I agree that RPGs are all about character progression and that sometimes turns into grinding. If levelling, gearing up etc. are removed then it simply turns into a 3rd person action game.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Clearly I said crafting is the pinnacle of MMOs.
PnP games were the inspiration for RPG's. VRPGs are not meant to be a simulated PnP game. Clearly I'm unenlightned for not playing PnPs. I bow to your superiority.
The video role-playing game industy developed the way it did because of the way computers and Computer Science developed during the history of classic role-playing games.
Early video role-playing games could not compete with the kind of games a kid with a high reading-age could produce wifh his friends with some books, dice, figures and some imagination from as early as the 70s. So instead the implementation was partial and people have become attached to, and argue over, these bowdlerised games.
The common-place MMO frozen, fixed plots still have some element of genuine role-playing they are just, well, inflexible.
You haven't really articulated what your problem is, not to me at least, other than your hate of classic role-playing.
You seem to complain that people are bored with crafting but declare that other crafting-related activity such as trading and selling is boring to you.
If you want to understand good game-play, consider the human experience rather than just complain.
Where did I say trading and selling is boring?
What exactly do you want to see in the MMO games that aren't there?
I don't hate PnP games, since I haven't even played them to find out. What I don't like is PnP gamers trying to come in and dictate the coarse of video game RPGs to relive their glory days of PnPing.
You have to consider how well the features you want would really work in a modern MMO, and most of them just would not go well with the medium.
Oh you must be referring to where I said sitting in a house waiting for customers would be boring.
Trading and selling is fine when that's what you're actually doing.
Sitting in your store for who knows how long while waiting for a customer to come along would be boring to no end.
And realistically would not be a feature even worth implementing.
Worked in SWG because there were NPC vendors that you could hire.
Yeah, ArcheAge looks pretty awesome, and even though The Repopulation looks like a successor to SWG, Indie MMO devs worry me but I'll keep an eye on it.
Another thing that sucks is we have no idea when these games are releasing.
This is the most truthful post ever, not only will there be Million's of different views, most of them overlaps eachother.
Regardless of what we think, it all depends on the Developer to make up their mind on their game on what they want to do.
Just like real life, We have Limits to what each can do, but our limitations are hidden behind the false Freedom that we all think we have. We are bound by Laws, Moral Ethic codes, Family, and Financial means with our Freedom yet we feel like we have real choice in life.
That is what Game Developers must create, a system which mimics Real life freedom.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Glad to see to you were able to read or remember your own posts
When you make pronouncements about "What is role-playing in Video role-playing games" you do realise that you are talking about just MMOs rather than other styles of Video role-playing games such as the latest edition of Elder Scrolls?
The latest version of Elder Scrolls is as flexible, if not more flexible in a role-playing sense, than Nethack and it is graphical and it includes the things you call role-playing within MMOs. The overall plot largely comes from the classic role-playing game, RuneQuest, which is why it is so detailed and modern programming allowed that flexibity.
For someone who openly claims to have no experience of classic role-playing you are very vocal about the parts that you consider to be negative about them. It would be like me "dissing" Eastern European films, or differing brands of bubblegum, without even bothering to read about them first.
If you are angry about people in their 40s playing MMOs, consider how people in their 40s, who also play MMOs, feel about youngsters telling them that they are the newcomers! I can't speak for my peers but I played the first MMOs and the games that spawned MMOs, from the classic role-playing games right through to Video RPGs.
Classic role-playing games are not about just "pen and paper" but are instead about people getting together using direct human interaction, well-defined rules and the human imagination to play a game. It is a platform that still rivals the most expensive computer a consumer can buy.
Modern video role-playing games are far closer to the classic experience than MMOs. There is no reason that advanced MMOs won't be able to use those advances to make a better MMO.
A better MMO where people may actually agree with you that crafting is interesting.
For the record, when I played EQ2 I experimented with crafting and one of my complaints was that crafting I really wanted to do (Woodworker and Provisioner mainly) didn't fit with the character class I wanted to play.
We understand why they did it, they were trying to attract the PnP RPG crowd to play their games so they used some of the terminology as an incentive. That doesn't change the fact that there really is very little in common between a PnP RPG and a computer RPG. It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters what it is. Unfortunately today, there are lots of people who have never had any kind of RPG experience except behind a keyboard and just have no clue how little their pixelated warriors allow them to actually roleplay because they have no actual frame of reference.
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I'm not trying to get them to change anything, but words still have meanings and using the wrong terminology, no matter how widespread it is, is still wrong, especially when people's entire arguments in these threads is "I talk funny in a game, therefore I'm roleplaying". It's about as silly as saying "I make VROOM VROOM noises when I walk, therefore I'm driving a car!"
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It doesn't matter who consented, any more than a bicycle manufacturer getting consent from airline manufacturers to call them airplanes. Getting permission to misuse a word doesn't stop the word from being misused.
Would I think any of those games are RPGs? No, because the term "RPG" in video games does stick, but the expanded version "role playing game" does not. They're just not "role playing games", they are "RPGs". The problem comes when people try to conflate the two and act like what you can do in a "role playing game", you can do in an "RPG", or worse, what you can do in an "RPG" is the same experience you get in a "role playing game".
They are two very different animals.
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These past few arguments being made have made me wonder how many people have actually role played in an RPG.
Here's the thing: Pen and Paper games aren't all that special. You know why? They're just a collection of rules to make it easier for someone to inspire a character. It baffles me that people honestly believe there is a solid disconnect between P&P role-playing and video game role-playing.
YES, video games obviously have more constrictions (thereby some may argue do not grant you the best experience), but you can still do many fantastic things in these virtual worlds with a sense of uniqueness. I'm talking about VRPGs like Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls, etc.
Role-playing is not something ANYONE, regardless of the medium presented, can throw upon you. The player has to make the concious choice to role-play, and in that the options are nearly limitless.
Everyone who is complaining about progression as an indicator of RPGs, let me reassure you that ideal has NEVER been a primary philosophy of role playing.
And yes, I focus on role playing because these are role playing games.
In my experience, MMO's have given players many more opportunities to engage this experience, almost as well as P&P. Legitimate RPing exists in a community, hence why P&P became a sort of cult classic early on. Games like Elder Scrolls suppliment this need by making the community driven by the computer, which is fine on the surface level but ultimately you can see through the thin veil.
MMO's give you an organic community like the old days. If you're strictly talking about game mechanics like level progression, crafting or plot, you have lost the real foundation of role-playing UNLESS you are arguing for those mechanics in such a way that it binds you (and your character) to the community you wish to RP with.
Balance Over All
The classic role-playing scene has actually spawned a lot of people who work in the computing industry. Even an eleven-year-old who started playing classic role-playing games in 1977 would be able to take an degree in Computer Science during the 80s and subsequently work in the computing industry. Learning to run a game with dice, rules and mental arithmatic is actually a reasonable way to prepare to learn how to program - there is plenty of synergy.
So the people who were playing classic role-playing gamers were amongst the people writing the computer role-playing game, which intially were very limited in what they could do - in part due to how the limted ways a computer could interact with a human during those early times.
Nowdays single-player computer role-playing games, such as the latest version of the Elder Scrolls, are far more flexible and probably come closer to what those original video game programmers would have wanted to program.
Typical MMOs are branched off older single-player computer role-playing games, which is why they are so primitive in some regards. However the range of MMOs is actually very varied and if a MMO player knows the games that are available whithin even this seemingly narrow range, he or she can experience role-playing closer to the classic experience.
If someone starts to think crafting, trading and other non-combat activities are important to an MMO then they are definitely moving in the right direction as they are thinking about game-play beyond mere hack and slay combat.
A very considered response to this thread.
I would agree that building communities in an MMO is very important - it makes the game more sociable, encourages people to stay playing a game and improves the chance that the random character you might meet is worth interacting with.
Just because people who used to PnP game made computer games doesn't mean they were successful in translating that experience to the computer world. It may be just me but I don't think it is possible to have the same essential experience you get sitting around a table with real people, with a human GM, as you can get in an online world with computer AI. The fundamental problem is that the computer is inherently limited in what it can do. It cannot react to the unexpected, therefore it simply does not allow the unexpected. You ride it's rails whether you want to or not.
However, in a good PnP RPG, you're not stuck to anything but basic physics in the game. I've played many characters that never once engaged in any form of combat, yet had long, interesting existences. Whether or not the majority of PnP RPG players ever rise above the simplistic "duh, I swing my Sword of Kewlness +2 at the dragon", the ability to go farther is there, it is possible to do so much more.
You can't do that in an MMO no matter how hard you try.
The difference between the two is fundamental. An MMO is a game. The purpose of the game, like it or not, is to kill things, or aid in killing things. You kill, you get loot, you get XP, you level up, you get better gear, etc. In that, it's really not any different than your typical single-player FPS. In Halo, you kill things, you get new weapons and ammo, you get better at things, etc. In Dead Space, you get new weapons and ammo, you develop skills, you craft better weapons, etc. If you take out the multi-player aspects, most MMOs are pretty much like Skyrim, although Skyrim is actually a lot freer than most MMOs. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm saying it's a true thing.
However, with a true PnP RPG, you start off with a blank slate. There is no inherent purpose in an RPG. The only point of playing is to have a good time. You're not pushed down a pre-programmed path with no deviation like you are in a computer game. The players make a definite difference in the game world, it changes depending on their actions. That's simply not true in an MMO. No matter what you do, you are not going to make any kind of lasting effect on the game world because everything that happens, you're not the only one who does it, everyone else does too! With very few exceptions in an MMO, everyone does the same thing. MMOs are inherently limited because the world of an MMO is hard-coded instead of fluid like a PnP RPG.
That's not saying MMOs are bad, just that the two are inherently different experiences, caused by their fundamentally different natures.
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And why should they? I played a little bit of PnP RPG (how about that? PnP RPG for the old table top games, RPG for CRPG) when i was in grad school ... and it was not a better experience than CRPG.
I was playing AD&D, and in particular, the accounting is just horribly cumbersome without a computer. Combat slows to a crawl with die rolls and stuff. Sure it is a bit more free form, but you are still mostly casting magic missiles and fireballs at monsters.
Personally, i would be happy to forgo that "roleplaying" just to get the combat game more playable. There is a reason why CRPG is 10000x more successful/popular than PnP RPGs.