Originally posted by moosecatlolBetter Dragons1234Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
Those are very differn't types of games where the entire areas are instances.. now we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
I don't believe it, A script will run the same weather its on a rat or a giant. What does it matter if its initialized in a zone or an instance?
You can see from the amount of De's running per zone that the server can handle the load of multiple complex scripts.
The only thing imo that would stop these kind of events happening would be the end users computer not being able to render those rather large models.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I have only read the first page of the thread, so sorry if I repeat something, but people seem to take these huge entities as normal dungeon bosses or raid bosses from other games.
Look at the size of that thing, it does not run around chasing single little guy based on "hate", all the other games where I raided the bosses were at least half the size to chase anything, and when they got really huge like raggy in WoW, he stood still doing stuff.
Just saying, if I was that dragon, I wouldnt be making estimates of who is the best healer of the little attacking insects, or which one of the individual raiders are shooting the most powerful needles at me.
That's just what comes to mind as first, as I havent experienced these fights yet so I cant say how they feel on the go.
Though I do agree that the things seem a bit too slow to do anything, I'd expect them to more wildly swipe the floor to get rid of the ants, and blow crystal smoke at player clusters or what the feck ever these things do to guys they dont fancy that much. Now the dragons look like they would be a bit bored with the crowd who are killing them
After 15 years, I'm a little disappointed that game companies are still using Dragons: Yet Again, yep.
Not quite the op's intended topic spin though, never mind.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
But those are tiny are are from dynamic events, not the meta- events, I'm talking about the large bosses. The flame elemental in the asura area, the worm in the sylvari area, the shadow behemoth and all of the intro bosses etc etc. The small to medium sized bosses are much more mobile.
But those are tiny are are from dynamic events, not the meta- events, I'm talking about the large bosses. The flame elemental in the asura area, the worm in the sylvari area, the shadow behemoth and all of the intro bosses etc etc. The small to medium sized bosses are much more mobile.
I still have nightmares about the flame elemental and people standing on the bridge trying to rez others, instead of going in and dancing with the thing.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
Everquest?
Big ass Dragons that you had to worry about hate, aggro, etc. They moved, and reacted based on different events. Even EQII being the horrible game that it was had better Dragon events.
DAOC had half decent Dragon events too that worried about how many people were hitting it, how many DPS were hitting it, and how many healers were active rather than hate management. The events would also change based on # of players to make it drastically harder if you brought 100 instead fo 50.
Also, BABY dragons O_o;? Those things are huge, you're joking right X_x? What are the higher end-game dragon fights? You running on their backs smacking giant mountains that are their joints x_X?
Also, "top Level" or not those dragons are extremely dumb and static fights. Just saying .
Everquest dragon fights... uber dynamic? I see people standing in a ball mashing #1.... Heindsight is 20/20 in most cases but i dont think this is one of those.
I don't understand the issue. I mean those freaking things are huge! Do you want them to shuffle around like Onyxia or something? Chase after the player who pulled agrro until the tank gets it back?
When you have to kill a couple of ants on your kitchen countertop, do you do a lot of running around or do you just get a tissue or bug spray and *splat*?
You character is about a size of an ant to those dragons. Well, maybe a bit bigger but I hope you get what I'm saying. The dragons are so big that they do not have to move as they are so big that you'll still be in their reach.
Who's to say, answering the OP, that Dragon Fights can't become something comprable to really intricate, fast paced, Skyrim type dragon fight. If you have the Deadly Dragons mod you'd know what I mean. Given some time, ANet can create some really awesome lengthy boss fights.
OP, the movement is turned around, players move constantly, the huge bosses are static. Phisicaly they can't move or it will be nighmare for players to follow them. Smaller bosses move a lot.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
Everquest?
Big ass Dragons that you had to worry about hate, aggro, etc. They moved, and reacted based on different events. Even EQII being the horrible game that it was had better Dragon events.
DAOC had half decent Dragon events too that worried about how many people were hitting it, how many DPS were hitting it, and how many healers were active rather than hate management. The events would also change based on # of players to make it drastically harder if you brought 100 instead fo 50.
Also, BABY dragons O_o;? Those things are huge, you're joking right X_x? What are the higher end-game dragon fights? You running on their backs smacking giant mountains that are their joints x_X?
Also, "top Level" or not those dragons are extremely dumb and static fights. Just saying .
got any video? I remember most being very static like wow, rift.. ect
not ot mention both those videos are very old the shatterer one is years old so no telling how the mechanics will be at launch
Proabably talking about smaller dragons. I remember them being pretty mobile in EQ1.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Originally posted by Enok4Twunni Who's to say, answering the OP, that Dragon Fights can't become something comprable to really intricate, fast paced, Skyrim type dragon fight. If you have the Deadly Dragons mod you'd know what I mean. Given some time, ANet can create some really awesome lengthy boss fights.
Skyrim is only good at one thing exploration and nothing more. The dragon fights were a joke at hour one and a joke a few hours later. No strategy, no tactics nothing really.
Bosses that stay relatively stantionary is a pretty common thing in many different kinds of games. Demons Souls, The Witcher 2 and many other games feature some stationary bosses. They are no less challenging or fun than the mobile bosses...just different.
I guess if GW2 had ONLY stationary bosses, I could understand this complaint...but they have both mobile and stationary bosses. So I see no problem here. In fact, I could even see people complaining if GW2 had NO stationary bosses because its boss fights would lack variety.
Originally posted by Enok4Twunni Who's to say, answering the OP, that Dragon Fights can't become something comprable to really intricate, fast paced, Skyrim type dragon fight. If you have the Deadly Dragons mod you'd know what I mean. Given some time, ANet can create some really awesome lengthy boss fights.
Skyrim is only good at one thing exploration and nothing more. The dragon fights were a joke at hour one and a joke a few hours later. No strategy, no tactics nothing really.
Originally posted by Enok4Twunni Who's to say, answering the OP, that Dragon Fights can't become something comprable to really intricate, fast paced, Skyrim type dragon fight. If you have the Deadly Dragons mod you'd know what I mean. Given some time, ANet can create some really awesome lengthy boss fights.
Skyrim is only good at one thing exploration and nothing more. The dragon fights were a joke at hour one and a joke a few hours later. No strategy, no tactics nothing really.
No TES game is noted for having exceptional combat. In fact, all of them are. Skyrim has a lot more going for it than just exploration though.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
Everquest?
Big ass Dragons that you had to worry about hate, aggro, etc. They moved, and reacted based on different events. Even EQII being the horrible game that it was had better Dragon events.
DAOC had half decent Dragon events too that worried about how many people were hitting it, how many DPS were hitting it, and how many healers were active rather than hate management. The events would also change based on # of players to make it drastically harder if you brought 100 instead fo 50.
Also, BABY dragons O_o;? Those things are huge, you're joking right X_x? What are the higher end-game dragon fights? You running on their backs smacking giant mountains that are their joints x_X?
Also, "top Level" or not those dragons are extremely dumb and static fights. Just saying .
got any video? I remember most being very static like wow, rift.. ect
not ot mention both those videos are very old the shatterer one is years old so no telling how the mechanics will be at launch
This is one of the more famous examples of what happens when you take on a dragon(s) in Everquest and don't do it right;
The video quality is crap, but notice that the one dragon aggroes another, who then both proceed to chase and follow the entire raid force of dozens of people, destroying them all.
I'm sorry, but look; Guild Wars 2 may be the flavor of the moment, and it may have many, many, many good things going for it, but better or "more interactive" boss fights than Everquest most certainly, by no stretch of the imagination, are not one of those things.
Pulling triplets! I was a Monk back then, and let me tell you, that was one of the most challenging raid encounters I've ever done. This is the kind of thing GW2 does not have, nor ever will.
Dragon comes up, makes an awesome entrance, and then stands there with little targety things for you to attack. It doesn't chase anyone around, and it doesn't pounce around the battlefield like TERA mobs do (which I had expected them to).
Instead major Dragons literally stand there, or fly straight up a couple feet while something diff happens (normally summoning mobs or something to fight you?). After flying in the same static spot for a bit they come back down to stand EXACTLY where they were before breathing in a single direction or swiping 180 degrees infront of them.
Seriously, watch as he just stands there attacking/swiping forward. Never moves from that spot while he gets beat on, flys up into the air at some point to summon mobs for a "mini-stage", and then comes back down to stand in place....breath in one direction....only to be beat on with little targety thingies like you're playing Shadows of Collosus or w/e that game was.
It's something a lot of MMO's do these days, I guess to make the fights fair for smaller groups/raids or something. Maybe to make it more platformy as well by having safespots and such.
It probably helps minimize on griefing as well. I recall far to often in EQ some Druid or Bard dragging a Dragon throughout the zone knocking off players who just happened to get caught in a pulsing AE or something.
Originally posted by moosecatlolBetter Dragons1234Hopefully we will see some actual AI come into play for the dragons of GW2, rather than the current scripted sequences.
Those are very differn't types of games where the entire areas are instances.. now we don't know but the final elder dragon battles could perhaps be in their own instance which would allow for more of this type of gameplay but either way they are working with the limitations of an open world raid
I don't believe it, A script will run the same weather its on a rat or a giant. What does it matter if its initialized in a zone or an instance?
You can see from the amount of De's running per zone that the server can handle the load of multiple complex scripts.
The only thing imo that would stop these kind of events happening would be the end users computer not being able to render those rather large models.
It's quite simple actually.
Open world you have X number of players fighting where X could be well be around 80-100
In an instance you have a fixed and limited amount of players.
Not only technologically wise is instanced content easier to make but it's even easier to balance.
It's pretty simple really. In open world content designed for anyone to just jump in and join the action, it's not possible to require the level of coordination and skill that is required of other raids in other games. Even 1 person doing something wrong in other raiding games will cause a wipe, if that were the case in GW2 nothing would ever die.
Luckily there are other games for people who want to raid specifically in an instanced environment. I bought GW2 because I know what it is. It's a decent game, with no subscription, and has pretty fun WvWvW PVP and a new take on leveling. I won't try to make GW2 out to be what it is not, and that is it's not a hardcore raiders wet dream.
The 5 man dungeons might take some amount of skill, but anything open world / beyond that probably will not take much beyond moving out of the red circles.
As for coordination and skill to deal with a more raid like instanced dragon that moves around, drops blobs of fire goo to avoid, while at the same time needing four people to simultaneously toggle anti shield devices... i just get bored to death from spending less time fighting and more time running around. At least from what i've seen in the videos there is plenty of opportunity to beat the snot out of it. To each their own i suppose. Maybe it's just the viking blood in me.
OP doesn't even know the difference between a "Major" dragon and their lieutenants. Hell, you only fight ONE of the Elder dragons in the initial GW2 game.
As for the dragons themselves, they are a certain mechanic in and of themselves. They are a giant obstacle that follows other events. There are plenty of other bosses, including veteran champions that can wipe a group and move around plenty. They just don't happen to be dragons. There's enough variety in combat situations if you actually open your eyes. If you don't, that's your problem really.
Originally posted by Aerowyn they are mid-high level raids not top level stuff also show me a MMO with more interactive dragon fights
Everquest?
Big ass Dragons that you had to worry about hate, aggro, etc. They moved, and reacted based on different events. Even EQII being the horrible game that it was had better Dragon events.
DAOC had half decent Dragon events too that worried about how many people were hitting it, how many DPS were hitting it, and how many healers were active rather than hate management. The events would also change based on # of players to make it drastically harder if you brought 100 instead fo 50.
Also, BABY dragons O_o;? Those things are huge, you're joking right X_x? What are the higher end-game dragon fights? You running on their backs smacking giant mountains that are their joints x_X?
Also, "top Level" or not those dragons are extremely dumb and static fights. Just saying .
got any video? I remember most being very static like wow, rift.. ect
not ot mention both those videos are very old the shatterer one is years old so no telling how the mechanics will be at launch
You're kidding right O_o? Have you never raided in EQ/EQII/DAOC? I've had to manage those before, and we've had stupid people screw up the whole encounter and the dragon moving around going on a rampage masacreing people :O!
Comments
in EQ2 -- the raid dragon fights Ive seen have always been in confined rooms
there are EQ2 raid dragons flying in the skies but only for visual effects, you could not engage them
there is an outdoor raid Chimera in Stonebrunt,Oxdaxius, but as long as the tank has aggro, its the traditional tank / spank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TzAL5WZb4M
EQ2 fan sites
I don't believe it, A script will run the same weather its on a rat or a giant. What does it matter if its initialized in a zone or an instance?
You can see from the amount of De's running per zone that the server can handle the load of multiple complex scripts.
The only thing imo that would stop these kind of events happening would be the end users computer not being able to render those rather large models.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
The mechanics of the fight would not work if it moved.
I have only read the first page of the thread, so sorry if I repeat something, but people seem to take these huge entities as normal dungeon bosses or raid bosses from other games.
Look at the size of that thing, it does not run around chasing single little guy based on "hate", all the other games where I raided the bosses were at least half the size to chase anything, and when they got really huge like raggy in WoW, he stood still doing stuff.
Just saying, if I was that dragon, I wouldnt be making estimates of who is the best healer of the little attacking insects, or which one of the individual raiders are shooting the most powerful needles at me.
That's just what comes to mind as first, as I havent experienced these fights yet so I cant say how they feel on the go.
Though I do agree that the things seem a bit too slow to do anything, I'd expect them to more wildly swipe the floor to get rid of the ants, and blow crystal smoke at player clusters or what the feck ever these things do to guys they dont fancy that much. Now the dragons look like they would be a bit bored with the crowd who are killing them
After 15 years, I'm a little disappointed that game companies are still using Dragons: Yet Again, yep.
Not quite the op's intended topic spin though, never mind.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
But those are tiny are are from dynamic events, not the meta- events, I'm talking about the large bosses. The flame elemental in the asura area, the worm in the sylvari area, the shadow behemoth and all of the intro bosses etc etc. The small to medium sized bosses are much more mobile.
I still have nightmares about the flame elemental and people standing on the bridge trying to rez others, instead of going in and dancing with the thing.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Everquest dragon fights... uber dynamic? I see people standing in a ball mashing #1.... Heindsight is 20/20 in most cases but i dont think this is one of those.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaVUtXneDrY
I don't understand the issue. I mean those freaking things are huge! Do you want them to shuffle around like Onyxia or something? Chase after the player who pulled agrro until the tank gets it back?
When you have to kill a couple of ants on your kitchen countertop, do you do a lot of running around or do you just get a tissue or bug spray and *splat*?
You character is about a size of an ant to those dragons. Well, maybe a bit bigger but I hope you get what I'm saying. The dragons are so big that they do not have to move as they are so big that you'll still be in their reach.
Proabably talking about smaller dragons. I remember them being pretty mobile in EQ1.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Skyrim is only good at one thing exploration and nothing more. The dragon fights were a joke at hour one and a joke a few hours later. No strategy, no tactics nothing really.
I really don't see any problem here.
Bosses that stay relatively stantionary is a pretty common thing in many different kinds of games. Demons Souls, The Witcher 2 and many other games feature some stationary bosses. They are no less challenging or fun than the mobile bosses...just different.
I guess if GW2 had ONLY stationary bosses, I could understand this complaint...but they have both mobile and stationary bosses. So I see no problem here. In fact, I could even see people complaining if GW2 had NO stationary bosses because its boss fights would lack variety.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Install the Deadly Dragons mod
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
No TES game is noted for having exceptional combat. In fact, all of them are. Skyrim has a lot more going for it than just exploration though.
Pulling triplets! I was a Monk back then, and let me tell you, that was one of the most challenging raid encounters I've ever done. This is the kind of thing GW2 does not have, nor ever will.
Chexk out this blog
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/TemperHoof/082012/23711_Guild-Wars-2-Predicting-Zhaitan
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
It's something a lot of MMO's do these days, I guess to make the fights fair for smaller groups/raids or something. Maybe to make it more platformy as well by having safespots and such.
It probably helps minimize on griefing as well. I recall far to often in EQ some Druid or Bard dragging a Dragon throughout the zone knocking off players who just happened to get caught in a pulsing AE or something.
It's quite simple actually.
Open world you have X number of players fighting where X could be well be around 80-100
In an instance you have a fixed and limited amount of players.
Not only technologically wise is instanced content easier to make but it's even easier to balance.
It's pretty simple really. In open world content designed for anyone to just jump in and join the action, it's not possible to require the level of coordination and skill that is required of other raids in other games. Even 1 person doing something wrong in other raiding games will cause a wipe, if that were the case in GW2 nothing would ever die.
Luckily there are other games for people who want to raid specifically in an instanced environment. I bought GW2 because I know what it is. It's a decent game, with no subscription, and has pretty fun WvWvW PVP and a new take on leveling. I won't try to make GW2 out to be what it is not, and that is it's not a hardcore raiders wet dream.
The 5 man dungeons might take some amount of skill, but anything open world / beyond that probably will not take much beyond moving out of the red circles.
OP doesn't even know the difference between a "Major" dragon and their lieutenants. Hell, you only fight ONE of the Elder dragons in the initial GW2 game.
As for the dragons themselves, they are a certain mechanic in and of themselves. They are a giant obstacle that follows other events. There are plenty of other bosses, including veteran champions that can wipe a group and move around plenty. They just don't happen to be dragons. There's enough variety in combat situations if you actually open your eyes. If you don't, that's your problem really.
Stupid people can make anything hard.