A justification for Ebaying

Cryomatrix · October 2005

Hey guys,

I truly do not see a problem in purchasing items off of Ebay, however, it is unfair that some people do have more money to spend than others, but then again, some people have a lot more time to spend on the game than others. So I'm going to attempt to justify buying in-game items or gold off of Ebay. My analysis will hinge on a number of points I will try to make.

1. A real life aspect of video games, 2. time is money and money is time, and finally I'll attempt to point out some weaknesses of my argument. This time i'm not half asleep like I was last time.

1. WoW is real life.

- Now I don't mean to say that the game is real life, but you are spending "Real Life" (RL will be the abbreviation) time on the game. To borrow an economics term, when you are playing the game for 3 hours you are incurring an opportunity cost of 3 hours on doing something else. The game itself isn't real life, but the time you spend on it is sure as hell as real as it can get. So if you play X hours you just lost X amount of time to do RL things. Hence, WoW is real in the RL opportunity costs that it incurs.

So when we are playing WoW, what are we really doing? Essentially we are saying that in this block of time, there isn't anything else that I can do that isn't more fun or doesn't give me as much utility than playing WoW, so you play WoW. On another aspect, WoW is just a tool or a toy that entertains us, like a ballgame or a movie. When you go out to a movie you pay in two ways, the first is you pay in money and the second is you pay in opportunity cost, same as in WoW.

2. Time is money and money is time

When you play WoW for X hours at a time, you could have been doing some extra hours work or doing something else. You oculd even be working a few odd jobs here and there to get some extra cash. The common adage of "time is money" rings true ubiquitously throughout life because if there is time you can always use it to make money. So a person can play X hours of WoW or they can work X hours in a certain time block, it is there choice. When a person works they could think their opportunity cost is that they lose the X amount of leisure time to have fun at the game.

Money is time is also true, haven't you seen the amount of time rich people have, just kidding. Anyway, if a person has money, they can always trade in that money for time. Instead of doing yardwork, you can pay someone to do it, instead of painting your house, you can pay someone to do it. It's a tradeoff. Instead of farming in WoW for uber duper items, you can pay someone who farmed to give you massive amounts of gold so you can just buy the items. Either way, you are trading money for time.

Now let us apply this to WoW and Ebay. I just went to a website where they were selling 1000 gold for a reasonable price. I'm thinking to myself, how many hours would it take me in WoW to farm for 1000 gold compared to how many hours of extra work I can do to buy that 1000 gold. Essentially, after taxes I can make enough money in about 5-6 hours (2 teaching sessions for me) to buy 1000 gold. How long would it take me in WoW to farm that 1000 gold. I'd say at lvl 50, I get about 3-4g an hour questing, so we'll extrapolate some information and say if I was lvl 60 and my main goal was to farm, I'd make about 10g an hour but we'll increase it for the small chance that you find an amazing item to sell on the auction house, so we'll triple that amount to 30g per hour. How many hours would it take to reach 1000g Abdul? It's about 33.33 (repeating of course) hours.

So to a person like myself who truly believes in the fact that by playing WoW I'm sinking RL time into it and that money is time and time is money, I see no problem in calling into work getting a few extra hours in, just enough to cover the cost of the gold and then buy the gold. It would seem to me that I'm saving hours in the process.

The problem people have with Ebayying is that it has such a negative connotation with it. I have to agree to a certain point, it would mean a lot more to me to earn that 1000g by playing the game than by buying it, hell I earned my first mount 90g, all by myself without handouts and it felt great and it was a sense of accomplishment.

I really disagree when people buy other people's accounts so they can get attention or whatever, if they don't earn their PvP skill by actually fighting than how can someone feel good about it and have pride.

BUT!!!!!! As much as I disagree with buying people to PvP for your character or whatever, (i'm sure they just have a bot doing it, running the same routes over and over again), if a person feels that they have fun getting all the attention or whatever, then that is there prerogative. If they have to be High Warlord and pay someone to get there, it's lame, but I have no problems with someone feeling the need to pay for it. If it enhances their fun they have two options, play the game for countless hours to reach it or pay someone a large sum that can be negated by working the necessary hours to offset the cost.

Conclusion:

My overall point is that if someone wants to pay money on Ebay for items or services for a video game it is fine. What's wrong with paying money for enhanced entertainment. Don't we all do that every single day? You pay for cable right? You pay to go see a movie? You pay to see a baseball game, you pay to play this video game? So what's wrong with paying to enhance the game itself.

Someone might say that he's paying for a virtual item, I don't see the difference in paying to see a movie, they both entertain people they just have different mechanisms of entertaining people. What is a cartoon movie anyway? Animations on a screen, what is a video game, animations on a screen. Entertainment is entertainment and we all pay for it every single day, when I go play golf, i'm paying to be entertained the same way I pay for WoW each month to be entertained by it, so why not Ebay to enhance your entertainment?

Someone may scoff at another person who ebays, but in my mind, I'd rather go work for 6 hours and get 1000 gold then play the game for 30 hours to get the same amount. Some people will be like, well I earned the gold fair and square so that makes me better than you, but the person who Ebayyed will be like, you're right, but I had 25 extra hours to work or to read a book or workout or to do whatever else. Who finished out on top? It is a matter of opinion.

Personal note:

Will I work a few hours and buy 1000 gold off some website? I'm not sure I'd want to use the extra money on WoW, however, it is possible I might do that If I felt that it was worth it. I haven't decided yet, I'd really only want the gold for a lvl 60 mount, but you never know, maybe I'll have it in my head to go for warlord or whatever.

Now please I don't want any responses saying, so if you can steal money from a bank to save time then why would anyone ever work. Ebaying is not a moral issue here, you can ebay or you can farm, they are both legal and amoral actions.

My whole point of this thread is to try to make a point that there is nothing really wrong with Ebaying, sorry, that I don't see anything wrong with ebaying. Of course if people use 3rd party programs and hacks and dupes then that is a different story as it ruins the game to some degree. I'm not sure if WoW has botters or dupes or anything but if people farm by running from chest to chest or whatever and selling it on ebay, I see no problem with that.

Disclaimer:

One point where I am weak in is that I'm not sure how the people who sell the gold get the gold so fast and get it fast enough to make a profit, I assume they must have bots, but I'm not completely sure. Another thing is that the argument is centered on a selfish theme in which I'm really only taking the individual player into account and not the affect that the ebaying has on the community and the game.

I am not encouraging anyone to Ebay, all I'm saying is that I don't think it should be looked at so badly.

Cryomatrix

Zhanghia · October 2005

WoW is already the most casual friendly so if you have to resort to ebay'ing, you need to go outside. I only skimmed along but seriously. I don't care if ebay is good in your idea. It promotes gold farming and excess gold will only raise prices. The only thing ebay was made for was 'real' merchandise (imho anyway). You don't own it, the company owns it. It's data, nothing more nothing less.

UncleSanta · October 2005

Nice selfish arguments but you forget one thing. MMORPG's are supposed to be fun/boring all the way including when you farm for gold for your epic mount or level your character to lvl 60. Ebaying gold or a character sure is convient for the individual who does so, but what about the person who hasnt got the money to buy items or cash but who has to go get it himself? Its all about the fairness of the game and ebaying aint fair to other players. And all that rich people talk is just shit! Its like accepting that you can run someone over in a car and the cops let you go because you got the money to bribe them, while the poor guy who did the same ends in the slammer.

A lot of MMORPG's has had huge problems with persons running bots or permacamping the same mobs 24/7 only in order to get items to sell. I know you dont care because you could just go to their website and buy the items. But what about the person who hasnt got the money and want that items so bad but cant get it because the mob that drops it is permacamped? Instances, "lore" items and "bind on pick up" items are some of the solutions the companies has had to come up with in order to prevent this and IMO they all suxs. I would rather have had no instances or bind on pick up items but farmers have ruined that.

I wont even start talking about the "plat dupes" who has been in some games and has ruined the economy. If you play the game as it is supposed to be played and suddenly find that all items has had their prices raised with x10 because somebody has made a zillion gold, what are you supposed to do? Buy some money so you can handle the increased prices or stick to it and not be able to buy anything?

When you level a character its not just about getting the exp and the next level. Its about learning how to play your class. Buying a character of a high level means that you have missed a lot in the learning process. Sure you can learn how to play (if you are good or get some advice) but mostly you'll have little clue about what you character can and should do.

Originally posted by Cryomatrix

Another thing is that the argument is centered on a selfish theme in which I'm really only taking the individual player into account and not the affect that the ebaying has on the community and the game

Thats the biggest problem with it all. All games have selfish bastards who only think about themselves, but MMORPG's are games with a lot of people and what you do affects the game for all. Of course its all great for the individual who has the cash to spend, but for the community as a whole ebaying tips the balance a lot!! MMORPG's aint all about YOU whatever you think! Show the community a little respect and play the game as it is supposed to be played or go play a solo game instead where you can behave like a retarded brat without disturbing others.

PS. Am I the only one who is offended seeing adds for IGE.com here on MMORPG.com??

IcoGames · October 2005

There are numerous small companies that employ people to farm for gold and items. These people spend their working hours in one area. Next time you log on, check out Tyre's Hand in EPL or the satyr spawns in Azshara. Most of the players in those locations are farmers.

IMO you're devaluing the experience when you purchase items or gold. At level 60, you can easily make 10-15 gold per hour without much effort. In the least, pickup Herbalism.

For my Epic Mount Fund, I spend maybe 30 minutes in Winterspring gathering Ice Cap and Mountain Silversage. Over the course of a week, I have enough gathered to make 75 - 100 gold. That's not too much of a time investment.

Siphons · October 2005

I have no respect for IGE or Ebayers. MMO's are supposed to escape from reality, not extend it. Pig. ::::27::

Johnark · October 2005

Because gold buyer players suck and dunno how to play the game!

Ever grouped with a player, equiped with epic armor & weapon, you'd think he's l33t and knows what to do, then when you play with him, he doesn't communicate, he makes so many mistakes, never assists or heals, and whines if you tell him to "learn how to play your class"!

I mean sucky players won't be that well equipped, so they don't deserve to be rich and own epic equipment! I mean if you think you'll be super powerful and useful for a group cause of your all IGE equipment only, think again! A real player who EARNED his equipment will be more useful in groups and raids and it shows!!! Cause the REAL player will know how to play, he will have gotten all his gold and epic equipment by grouping with others, so he knows how to play!

Plus it ruins the economy! There's a cool weapon at the AH that I want, but it's priced at 200g!!! On a server not filled with chinese farmers and IGE/Ebay-wh0res, if that epic is overpriced at 200g, NO ONE WILL BUY IT! So the seller will be forced to sell it for cheaper 24 hours later! But in a ruined economy with idiot gold buyers, if he has 5000g on hand, who cares about 200g... he wants the item, HE BUYS! So this gives the illusion to the seller than 200g is the going price, so he'll always sell that item for 200g!

Volkarus · October 2005

I'm not a fan of ebaying, but on the other hand, I've noticed I can sell the items I find for more then they used to sell for. This in turn makes in-game prices go down.

With my lvl 44 mage, I had no trouble buying my mount at 40, whereas 8 months ago, i didn't have enough gold until I was 45. I've bought pretty good armor, have all my spells, and have gold left over. Repair prices are lower, travel, spells, etc.

So, its true that items on the AH are more expensive due to gold sellers, but the players that don't buy gold can still survive financially, and easier then they used to.

Thoughts?

crack_fox · October 2005

Good post Cryomatrix. I agree with a lot of what you say in principle at least. In practice though, I've never really understood the need to buy gold or items. All of the games I've played have enabled players to easily amass enough gold for their needs. For most of the "journey" to maximum level, you don't need to have the best possible equipment. Using lower quality gear doesn't stop you levelling, it just means you level a little bit slower. The only time I was caught short financially was when SoE decided to implement item attunement into EQ2 to appease the craftaholics.

However, I'm not 100% convinced by the arguments against buying gold. The objections of time-rich hardcore players just make me laugh. They're not bothered about protecting the economy or the "community", just their bragging rights. Really guys, if you want to show the world how skilled you are go fight into your underpants. Uber-armour is for wimps who don't know when to duck. I'm sure that bought gold does have an impact on game economies, but I've never experienced a situation where the impact has been so severe that it has caused me any real problems. Besides, if it helps some poor Chinese bloke put real food on his family table, then I'm cool with that. If it sends some fat loser of a player with no life beyond his computer screen into raging fits of indignant fury, I'm cool with that too.

gargantroo · October 2005

my rogue is so gimped out and I pwn any class so easily. Never spent a dime on ebay (for WOW at least)

Croe · October 2005

I look at the whole thing like this....

"lets say im out playing golf with my buddy and were walking along the greens wiht our clubs and were about to tee off right. so im about to hit my ball and ive just got regular joe smoe clubs so i hit my ball whoopie its done. So my friend goes to hit his ball and he whips out the Golf pro pwn cakey 5000 1/2 Im not gonnna be mad at him because he has a better club beacause this is what he does for fun he chooses to spend his money on it. I may not condone it but thats how it is the same can be said of people that buy in game items they have money to spend on what they enjoy oh well right. Im satisfied knowing i raided for my stuff and am doing somthing with my game experiance rather then having it given to me. you only cheat yourself out of cotent buying things but you cant really tell that to the guy who just bought 1 thou gold and it only took em 10 mins cause he more then likely wont listen to you."

Hashman · October 2005

@OP The time is money description is flawed, since the people who actually farm the money are paid a slave wage even if the companies selling in game currency are glossed as some respected corporation. So while you may spend 3hrs to get however much RL money to buy in game money, the individuals who farm would need to spend so much more time than you for the same amount. That is why they are so profitable and continue. These companies have loads of people playing 3 8hr shifts farming money.

To counter your cinema analogy, there is copyright involved and what you are essentially doing is buying a pirate DVD of a film instead of going to cinema and watching it.

There never will be a justification for buying IG money with RL money.

NeoDias · October 2005

ebay is a good place for trading.

Azirophos · October 2005

Originally posted by Cryomatrix
Of course if people use 3rd party programs and hacks and dupes then that is a different story as it ruins the game to some degree.

To some degree?? Aha.

@topic: Also your time comparisons are a bit weak. Where is the achievement in finding that good gear if everyone can buy it off Ebay? Where is achievement in reaching the 100 Gold barrier if a 3 day old character can purchase it. Trading at Ebay (and with all the other companies that are active in this) disturbs the work/achievment relation in a game, since you influence the game world with non-game world assets. Not even mentioning the fact that you rob yourself of the biggest fun in game - the path to achieving a good character.

Some games that will be released in the near future will actively rely on additional income by including a trade system that is partly relying on RL money. Afaik, Roma Victor will be the first game to do this to a larger extent. But, while the content will hopefully also be balanced toward the possibility of additional game asset purchase with RL cash, I certainly won't play such a game. If your achievements in a game start to rely on monetary resources in RL its time for me to pull the plug.

jimmyman99 · October 2005

Originally posted by Mandolin
I'm sure that bought gold does have an impact on game economies, but I've never experienced a situation where the impact has been so severe that it has caused me any real problems.

http://plaguelands.com/?page_id=172

Although that was caused by duping, but the situation is practicaly the same - a lot of gold was introduced very fast into the market. The fact that that gold is farmed and not duped like in the above link makes this issue even more critical because from technical standpoint, that gold was obtain legally.

I am strongly against EBAYING, I believe it affects economy (strongly or not, doesnt matter), it affects the whole concept of MMORPG. Even if that would be acceptible, the concept of purchasing gold for RL money means most people will be in a disadvantage, specificaly poor people. They will be forced to farm as well in order to compete with others. Farm gold to make money to buy better stuff to compete. so soon we will see everybody running in blue gear, farming their ass off to stay in shape or earn money.

MMORPG is a fantasy world, it should stay that way. I dont like my dreams to be commercialized.

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A justification for Ebaying

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