Originally posted by lizardbones How are you objectively measuring the "innovation level" of the two games?
Originally posted by Goldknyght Not trying to write a novel about it, just saying there is nothing innovative about GW2.
How are you defining innovation in the MMORPG genre?
Originally posted by Goldknyght As innovation i would say somthing that hasnt been done or if has its done better in a way that it felt different.
How sure are you that your experience with ToR applies to everyone else who's playing GW2?
Originally posted by Goldknyght Easy because I was posting same type of threads and now TOR is uninstalled.
How sure are you that the factors you've listed are the primary drivers behind WoW's success? How sure are you that those drivers are relevant to GW2's success?
Originally posted by Goldknyght I believe WoW's success was because it was created in what I would coin the Goldylocks Era. Not to few mmo's where theres not alot of players and not to late where there is a flood of MMO's (like today). It was made at the right time where there was only 2 to 4 other MMO's to even consider playing.
I'm not saying you're wrong. You might be right. It seems like you came to your conclusion first, and then rooted around for some reasons after reaching your conclusion (to me).
Originally posted by Goldknyght Sorry for that kinda sleepy
You've applied your personal experience to a million plus people. You're using a very loosely defined term in "innovation" and you're assuming that a portion of the factors that lead to WoW's success are the primary driving factors behind whether or not GW2 will be successful.
Originally posted by Goldknyght But isnt everyone on here who is saying they are having a blast comparing their personal experiences? I gave few reasons, but I hit on the main one.
I'm using the BBML editor, so your red text has gone missing. I'm going to try to make it bold or something, but no guarantees.
It's not the opinion that is suspect because opinions can't be right or wrong. It's the conclusion that GW2 will fail or be successful because of the opinions that is suspect. If the conclusion depends on people sharing your opinion, and not on objective facts, then the conclusion is suspect. You're going to have a hard time getting a consensus on what innovation even means, much less a consensus on how to compare the innovation of WoW to GW2.
The bit about conclusion first, justification afterwards is how most decisions are made by humans. What you've outlined just looks like this process to me because the reasons depend on subjective agreement to be true. There's no measuring stick for innovation and no clear definition, so it depends on someone having the same opinion as you to be true.
Again, you could still be right. However, if GW2 does go bust, the reasons will be much more objective and measurable than what you've outlined. The environment that the games have been released in is a better reason. That seems much more objective to me...much more measurable.
Interesting Note: Our unconscious mind makes most of our decisions quickly, including things like whether we believe a game will succeed or fail. After our unconscious mind makes the decision, it's passed off to our conscious mind to justify the decision. It's like this because our conscious minds are so slow compared to our unconscious minds in making decisions. It's not always like this but most of the time it is, because otherwise we'd almost never get anything done.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are readily available tomarkets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a better and, as a result, novel idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself. Innovation differs from improvement in that innovation refers to the notion of doing something different (Lat. innovare: "to change") rather than doing the same thing better."
By definition WoW is the most innovative game ever...They took what was already there and cut out the bad or slow parts, mashed the two major games at the time together and you have WoW. I think alot of people get invention and innovation mixed up.
Its already sold over a million units in pre-order downloads alone so your very first sentance makes no sence at all .
So comercially speaking you've already been proven wrong . If your talking about it being an innovative faliure its so soon atter launch its impossible to have experianced enough of the game to know one way or another .
Most people I know are having a blast in it so far a few launch issues aside .
I think a more apt title for your thread would be " why Guild Wars 2 doesn't appeal to me"
I do have some sympathy for you though I would like to see games like Everquest 1 being released today but things have moved on . Back then you could have a couple of hundred thousand subs and be considered a success .
Guild Wars 2 is successful already and it looks like its going to grow in popularity over the coming months .
Reasons I beleive GW2 will be a failure is because its not as innovative as WoW was when it stole everything good from MMO's. When WoW did it there was 1 other MMO that was even worth playing and that was EverQuest. DAoC had its fan base it just wasnt on the level of EQ. By the time WoW came out, People were ready for something different. Today there are too many mmo's out there. I blame WoW for this.
Only Reason
GW2 will be a bust because its only fun because its the new girl or boy whichever is ur liking. In this world of MMO's we just look for the next one and lie to ourselves that this one is the one. I know this because its happened to myself with TOR and my friends with TERA. Once the newness wears off these threads like mine will become common.
Graphics are good, the world is fresh, the quests are the same, the classes the same. the grind is the same. Only reason to purchase this game I can honestly say is because its free after purchase as long as the servers are still active that is and theoreticly it could possible be worth 60 bucks of entertainment if u put it in scales of taking a family of 4 to the movies.
I wanted to like this game. IM FIENDING for a fantasy MMO thats worth playing. This just isnt it. I compare all fantasy games to Everquest 1 and what seperates EQ from every MMO released is, it was a world you wanted to explore. No one guided you, you played a character in a game and created your own story. I'll save my money stick with Vanguard.
Glad you guys who love the game love it more power to ya. I just wanted a thread so if someone was on the line about purchasing it and didnt buy it yet would have a non bias prespective.Only because of all the glory threads on this forum. Sorry for any typo's im tired and my head hurts.
Thank you for your opinion and prediction of the future. I've done the same based on my time playing MMOs, which started with EQ, and discovering what systems GW2 has.
If my experience with 1-17 is any indication it's far superior in every department beyond nostalgic. In fact it's better than any game I have played IMO.
GW2 reminds me on Rift. They're both solid theme park MMORPGs, with good graphics, a few new mechanics while beeing not too innovative. The main difference is for me right now, that GW2 has more starting zones. That counts a lot for me. On the other hand: Rift is getting regularily new content. Can GW2 offer the same?
Hmmm... I think GW2 will do ok. Whether or it becomes in the long run stronger or weaker than Rift depends on what the developers offers in the next few weeks. *cough* forums *cough*
GW2 is already a massive success. They're hiring more people right now. That should tell you something. They're also pushing the game to China right now in one of the largest deals ever for a MMO. That is not a bust. GW2 is going to make NCSoft and ANet a lot of money and rightfully so. It's a great game.
Originally posted by jdnyc GW2 is already a massive success. They're hiring more people right now. That should tell you something. They're also pushing the game to China right now in one of the largest deals ever for a MMO. That is not a bust. GW2 is going to make NCSoft and ANet a lot of money and rightfully so. It's a great game.
Not even a week old and it is already a success ? Many games sell over 1 mill at launch, this is nothing new.
"innovation refers to the notion of doing something different"
By definition WoW is the most innovative game ever
Really i think GW2 has WoW on this. No trinity, no traditional quest system, content scaling, overflow zones, chained DEs, weapon swap skill systems, good xp for every facet of the game (harvesting, crafting, exploring)...GW2 is certainly the most unique themepark released recently.
You could make the argument that EQ2 was more innovative than WoW as well.
You are confusing the game's popularity with its degree of innovation.
"Perhaps most interestingly to players, however, is the fact that EA has reported sales of more than 2 million units of The Old Republic with about 1.7 million subscribers."
Originally posted by jdnyc GW2 is already a massive success. They're hiring more people right now. That should tell you something. They're also pushing the game to China right now in one of the largest deals ever for a MMO. That is not a bust. GW2 is going to make NCSoft and ANet a lot of money and rightfully so. It's a great game.
Not even a week old and it is already a success ? Many games sell over 1 mill at launch, this is nothing new.
A million pre-orders. They're hiring more people to handle the load. No sub. A ton of people I know in my guild have already bought gems. They're expanding into China already. They had 400k concurrent users. It's not a bust. We just don't know how big of a success the game will be.
Originally posted by jdnyc GW2 is already a massive success. They're hiring more people right now. That should tell you something. They're also pushing the game to China right now in one of the largest deals ever for a MMO. That is not a bust. GW2 is going to make NCSoft and ANet a lot of money and rightfully so. It's a great game.
Not even a week old and it is already a success ? Many games sell over 1 mill at launch, this is nothing new.
A million pre-orders. They're hiring more people to handle the load. No sub. A ton of people I know in my guild have already bought gems. They're expanding into China already. They had 400k concurrent users. It's not a bust. We just don't know how big of a success the game will be.
I don't think that means anything. AOC and Rift sold over 1 million. WAR sold 1.5 million. SWTOR sold 2 million. All we know is thta GW2 sold over 1 million pre-copies. How many, and how much difference between headstarta dn launch remaisn to be seen.
And most importantly, it's ongoing reveneu is what matters, after all. So, predicting eitehr sucess or doom at this point is really useless.
Really, why can't people just wait some time for these games to age abit and full numbers being revelead? BTW, BW is also hiring.
Originally posted by jdnyc GW2 is already a massive success. They're hiring more people right now. That should tell you something. They're also pushing the game to China right now in one of the largest deals ever for a MMO. That is not a bust. GW2 is going to make NCSoft and ANet a lot of money and rightfully so. It's a great game.
Not even a week old and it is already a success ? Many games sell over 1 mill at launch, this is nothing new.
A million pre-orders. They're hiring more people to handle the load. No sub. A ton of people I know in my guild have already bought gems. They're expanding into China already. They had 400k concurrent users. It's not a bust. We just don't know how big of a success the game will be.
I don't think that means anything. AOC and Rift sold over 1 million. WAR sold 1.5 million. SWTOR sold 2 million. All we know is thta GW2 sold over 1 million pre-copies. How many, and how much difference between headstarta dn launch remaisn to be seen.
And most importantly, it's ongoing reveneu is what matters, after all. So, predicting eitehr sucess or doom at this point is really useless.
Really, why can't people just wait some time for these games to age abit and full numbers being revelead? BTW, BW is also hiring.
The mmo genre needs hype to survive because the majority of other mmos fail. Some people are just so sick of WoW that they will proclaim anything the savior of mmos just to get a rise out of the industry. This game is only build for the short term so I wouldn't get too concerned about what some diehards are saying. Nothing but a grain of salt.
I don't think that means anything. AOC and Rift sold over 1 million. WAR sold 1.5 million. SWTOR sold 2 million. All we know is thta GW2 sold over 1 million pre-copies. How many, and how much difference between headstarta dn launch remaisn to be seen.
And most importantly, it's ongoing reveneu is what matters, after all. So, predicting eitehr sucess or doom at this point is really useless.
Really, why can't people just wait some time for these games to age abit and full numbers being revelead? BTW, BW is also hiring.
Are they hiring for SWTOR though? Rift wasn't a bust. It was a success. And the games you listed were sub based. ANet relies off box sales. Long term profit? That's another discussion. The only thing this thread is dealing with is whether the game is a bust. Coming from another game that I also love, TSW, that's a bust. ANet is happy with their initial sales and swamped because the game is too popular. That doesn't sound like a bust, does it?
Page number predictions? It's a troll thread folks. He/she is not playing and saved his/her money and is continuing to play Vanguard. Why do you guys feel the need to defend your fun?
However, I am playing but I'm not compelled to play by the storyline. SWTOR's story telling ruined that for me. Also, events are like "What the hell just happened?" Hopefully they'll be more fun as the number of people plowing through the zones starts to dwindle. Last night, I was a little disappointed with Ebonhawke. The city itself is awesome and the events inside the city were fun, but some of the surrounding areas events were broken. I lost momentum searching for events that weren't bugged. This made the zone feel choppy. So I quit for the night with a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure they'll fix these events. This "ain't my first rodeo," so I'll forgive and forget. I'm still figuring things out which is fun, and I've got a long way to go.... so I've got to get back to it.
Page number predictions? It's a troll thread folks. He/she is not playing and saved his/her money and is continuing to play Vanguard. Why do you guys feel the need to defend your fun?
However, I am playing but I'm not compelled to play by the storyline. SWTOR's story telling ruined that for me. Also, events are like "What the hell just happened?" Hopefully they'll be more fun as the number of people plowing through the zones starts to dwindle. Last night, I was a little disappointed with Ebonhawke. The city itself is awesome and the events inside the city were fun, but some of the surrounding areas events were broken. I lost momentum searching for events that weren't bugged. This made the zone feel choppy. So I quit for the night with a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure they'll fix these events. This "ain't my first rodeo," so I'll forgive and forget. I'm still figuring things out which is fun, and I've got a long way to go.... so I've got to get back to it.
They were doing server work while the game was running last night. They made an announcement about that and said they're would be some performance issues in global announcements.
That means there is plenty of trinity style games for you to play OP so why you in this sub-forum busting on GW2 when its a B2P mmo that is by far the most innovative and very likely the biggest most beautiful vanilla world ever created..
Its a one of a kind game..
Wow stole from a few of the better games of the era and added their own twists to make a great game..
Enter 2012 and anet has done the exact same thing only GW2 has many of the better features of many mmogs all rolled into one game with an absolutely killer twist on each....
And there is no nosewiper trinity which is the best part of it all..
Your looking for a fanstasy mmo worth playing and GW2 aint it ? ok i am going to shock you out of your socks, it will take around 10 years before we see any fantasy mmo as good as GW2.
Now go play some other game thats better then GW2 lulz
The only thing innovative WoW really did was have TV commercials. TV commercials bring in a boat load more customers than strictly web based advertisements, especially back when WoW was launched. By doing this they were able to pull in all sorts of demographics not just the computer nerds. If you don’t believe me just compare insurance companies that advertise on TV to the ones that don’t.
"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."
Oddly. The No Trinity thing is a bit of a drawback for many when talking about dungeons. I find the dungeon encounters a little boring myself.
Oddly, I am the exact opposite. The idea of no more trinity and thus elitism in that is what I find intriguing (not saying there won't be elitism - that aways seems to happen).
I wish people would stop comparing the two games. They are night and day although they are both MMO's.
Comments
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
I'm using the BBML editor, so your red text has gone missing. I'm going to try to make it bold or something, but no guarantees.
It's not the opinion that is suspect because opinions can't be right or wrong. It's the conclusion that GW2 will fail or be successful because of the opinions that is suspect. If the conclusion depends on people sharing your opinion, and not on objective facts, then the conclusion is suspect. You're going to have a hard time getting a consensus on what innovation even means, much less a consensus on how to compare the innovation of WoW to GW2.
The bit about conclusion first, justification afterwards is how most decisions are made by humans. What you've outlined just looks like this process to me because the reasons depend on subjective agreement to be true. There's no measuring stick for innovation and no clear definition, so it depends on someone having the same opinion as you to be true.
Again, you could still be right. However, if GW2 does go bust, the reasons will be much more objective and measurable than what you've outlined. The environment that the games have been released in is a better reason. That seems much more objective to me...much more measurable.
Interesting Note:
Our unconscious mind makes most of our decisions quickly, including things like whether we believe a game will succeed or fail. After our unconscious mind makes the decision, it's passed off to our conscious mind to justify the decision. It's like this because our conscious minds are so slow compared to our unconscious minds in making decisions. It's not always like this but most of the time it is, because otherwise we'd almost never get anything done.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are readily available tomarkets, governments, and society. Innovation differs from invention in that innovation refers to the use of a better and, as a result, novel idea or method, whereas invention refers more directly to the creation of the idea or method itself. Innovation differs from improvement in that innovation refers to the notion of doing something different (Lat. innovare: "to change") rather than doing the same thing better."
By definition WoW is the most innovative game ever...They took what was already there and cut out the bad or slow parts, mashed the two major games at the time together and you have WoW. I think alot of people get invention and innovation mixed up.
Its already sold over a million units in pre-order downloads alone so your very first sentance makes no sence at all .
So comercially speaking you've already been proven wrong . If your talking about it being an innovative faliure its so soon atter launch its impossible to have experianced enough of the game to know one way or another .
Most people I know are having a blast in it so far a few launch issues aside .
I think a more apt title for your thread would be " why Guild Wars 2 doesn't appeal to me"
I do have some sympathy for you though I would like to see games like Everquest 1 being released today but things have moved on . Back then you could have a couple of hundred thousand subs and be considered a success .
Guild Wars 2 is successful already and it looks like its going to grow in popularity over the coming months .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEhDZN0RFjw
If my experience with 1-17 is any indication it's far superior in every department beyond nostalgic. In fact it's better than any game I have played IMO.
Have fun in your game of choice.
GW2 reminds me on Rift. They're both solid theme park MMORPGs, with good graphics, a few new mechanics while beeing not too innovative. The main difference is for me right now, that GW2 has more starting zones. That counts a lot for me. On the other hand: Rift is getting regularily new content. Can GW2 offer the same?
Hmmm... I think GW2 will do ok. Whether or it becomes in the long run stronger or weaker than Rift depends on what the developers offers in the next few weeks. *cough* forums *cough*
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Not even a week old and it is already a success ? Many games sell over 1 mill at launch, this is nothing new.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Really i think GW2 has WoW on this. No trinity, no traditional quest system, content scaling, overflow zones, chained DEs, weapon swap skill systems, good xp for every facet of the game (harvesting, crafting, exploring)...GW2 is certainly the most unique themepark released recently.
You could make the argument that EQ2 was more innovative than WoW as well.
You are confusing the game's popularity with its degree of innovation.
"Perhaps most interestingly to players, however, is the fact that EA has reported sales of more than 2 million units of The Old Republic with about 1.7 million subscribers."
...And many call TOR a failure...
A million pre-orders. They're hiring more people to handle the load. No sub. A ton of people I know in my guild have already bought gems. They're expanding into China already. They had 400k concurrent users. It's not a bust. We just don't know how big of a success the game will be.
I don't think that means anything. AOC and Rift sold over 1 million. WAR sold 1.5 million. SWTOR sold 2 million. All we know is thta GW2 sold over 1 million pre-copies. How many, and how much difference between headstarta dn launch remaisn to be seen.
And most importantly, it's ongoing reveneu is what matters, after all. So, predicting eitehr sucess or doom at this point is really useless.
Really, why can't people just wait some time for these games to age abit and full numbers being revelead? BTW, BW is also hiring.
Oddly. The No Trinity thing is a bit of a drawback for many when talking about dungeons. I find the dungeon encounters a little boring myself.
The mmo genre needs hype to survive because the majority of other mmos fail. Some people are just so sick of WoW that they will proclaim anything the savior of mmos just to get a rise out of the industry. This game is only build for the short term so I wouldn't get too concerned about what some diehards are saying. Nothing but a grain of salt.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Are they hiring for SWTOR though? Rift wasn't a bust. It was a success. And the games you listed were sub based. ANet relies off box sales. Long term profit? That's another discussion. The only thing this thread is dealing with is whether the game is a bust. Coming from another game that I also love, TSW, that's a bust. ANet is happy with their initial sales and swamped because the game is too popular. That doesn't sound like a bust, does it?
Page number predictions? It's a troll thread folks. He/she is not playing and saved his/her money and is continuing to play Vanguard. Why do you guys feel the need to defend your fun?
However, I am playing but I'm not compelled to play by the storyline. SWTOR's story telling ruined that for me. Also, events are like "What the hell just happened?" Hopefully they'll be more fun as the number of people plowing through the zones starts to dwindle. Last night, I was a little disappointed with Ebonhawke. The city itself is awesome and the events inside the city were fun, but some of the surrounding areas events were broken. I lost momentum searching for events that weren't bugged. This made the zone feel choppy. So I quit for the night with a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure they'll fix these events. This "ain't my first rodeo," so I'll forgive and forget. I'm still figuring things out which is fun, and I've got a long way to go.... so I've got to get back to it.
They were doing server work while the game was running last night. They made an announcement about that and said they're would be some performance issues in global announcements.
That means there is plenty of trinity style games for you to play OP so why you in this sub-forum busting on GW2 when its a B2P mmo that is by far the most innovative and very likely the biggest most beautiful vanilla world ever created..
Its a one of a kind game..
Wow stole from a few of the better games of the era and added their own twists to make a great game..
Enter 2012 and anet has done the exact same thing only GW2 has many of the better features of many mmogs all rolled into one game with an absolutely killer twist on each....
And there is no nosewiper trinity which is the best part of it all..
Playing GW2..
Your looking for a fanstasy mmo worth playing and GW2 aint it ? ok i am going to shock you out of your socks, it will take around 10 years before we see any fantasy mmo as good as GW2.
Now go play some other game thats better then GW2 lulz
The only thing innovative WoW really did was have TV commercials. TV commercials bring in a boat load more customers than strictly web based advertisements, especially back when WoW was launched. By doing this they were able to pull in all sorts of demographics not just the computer nerds. If you don’t believe me just compare insurance companies that advertise on TV to the ones that don’t.
"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."
You must be kidding....
you lost me there.
Oddly, I am the exact opposite. The idea of no more trinity and thus elitism in that is what I find intriguing (not saying there won't be elitism - that aways seems to happen).
I wish people would stop comparing the two games. They are night and day although they are both MMO's.