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How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 2
exdeathbr
Member UncommonPosts: 137
Usually when talking about permadeath here, permadeath haters complain alot about permadeath, no matter what pemadeath system another user propose.
Some thing that usually happens in those threads, is some guys not only complaining about permadeath, but saying that no game like that should be ever made. Sometimes they even compare it with the guy that like permadeath system deleting his char (in a normal mmorpg game withouth permadeath) .
Because of that I decided to see how big this specific type of ultra hate against permadeath is, the one that say no games should be ever be developed, that permadeath is forcing a gamplay into other players, that say to players just delete their chars when they die.... NOT the guys that say they wouldnt just play it and hate the gamplay.
So I made a thread with a idea that was barely permadeath. In the mmorpg idea players would start the game and after dying once they would go to another universe that is 100% similar (not 99.99% but 100%) but if you die you continue in the universe you are, the game would not have full drop, so you would be able to quickly suicide and go to other universe if you dont care about permadeath. This idea is barely permadeath, if you hate it you can just die quickly and go other universe without doing some sort of gameplay.
This thread had a poll to vote and even with this idea being barely permadeath many of the permadeath ultra haters voted on banning this idea, 56%, 24.4% not being the style of permadeath haters I am talking about or aren't even permadeath haters, and 19.5% would not complain about it.
The idea was to see if even with this idea that was barely parmadeath people would complain saying it should not be developed and stuff like that. The poll proved that yes, they would complain.
Anyway here I will try to make the poll again but with another "gameplay idea" that you can entirely avoid it, you dont even need to see it like in my original one, and ask to those ultra permadeath haters if they would hate it.
THE NEW IDEA:
The game would work in this way:
-The game has 2 servers (or more) one of those servers doenst have permadeath, another server is 100% (not 99.99% but 100%) like the other ones, but has permadeath, so if you lose your char in this permadeath server you will lose him.
-You can't change your char between servers. But can play in both servers if in each server you create a char.
PS:This is not like diablo 2 hardcore mode, in the permadeath server all players will be at permadeath mode and in the non permadeath server all players will play in a non permadeath way. Its just 2 servers that are 100% equal but one has permadeath and the other dont.
So, I will now make a question to those ultra permadeath haters that complain alot about it saying stuff like, "this is forcing users to play in your way, "just die and delete your char", "this will split userbase"..... And, so would not only not play the game or think permadeath is a super boring idea, but would even hate if one was developed.
THE POLL:
Comments
TL;DR
Nobody here complains about permadeath when brought up. When people dislike a feature they will tell you they don't like it and most likely, avoid the game that has said feature. That's hardly the same as complaining. That's just avoiding something you dislike.
People only complain about things they have to deal with in one shape or another. Permadeath isn't one of them. It's one of those things you can easily avoid
I'm one of the few who've had opportunity to play MMORPG's that made death harsh, like full loot (Ultima Online) or SWG (massive exp loss if you're jedi) and I loved those features. Why? Cuz owning players gives value and purpose. When I loot your corpse you loss gear, buffs, etc so you won't just respawn and rush again and again in the PvP action.
Permadeath exist in real life and certanly would work in MMORPG's as well. It makes risks far more risky and rewarding.
This ^^^
I will never play PD .. but it is 100% optional in D3 and i don't see a problem. More power to those who play hard core.
The ideas was to explain in detail, the idea of the thread to not have people voting in wrong things or asking the same stuff over and over like in the previous thread.
Yes they complain, they do it in the threads all the time, they say stupid stuff like saying to permadeath likers just delete their chars after they die that permadeath would be forcing gameplay on other guys and forcing stuff on other guys is a bad thing.
Also using this logic that permadeath means forcing a gameplay into other players. Mmorpgs is also forcing people to play with other guys, if the gameplay of the mmorpg was offline instead of online they would be able to play alone, so mmorpg is also forcing stuff into players.
My new idea (the one I wrote in this thread first post) is not identical, in diablo 2 hardcore mode, both players hardcore or not play in the same server. Here there is one server to each gameplay and you can transfer your char from one server to another.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Those are also the same idiots who want PvP baned in all games even if they are on seperate servers.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Yes, as I said on original post my thread is about that, not just about those mmorpg guys that hate ALOT and would NEVER, EVER play a mmorpg with permadeath. This thread is about the ones that want to ban permadeath, complain when someone say the word permadeath here in one of his mmorpgs ideas, complain about it (as in "this should be banned") in games they wouldnt play anyway....
So, the idea is to see if even 2 separated servers is a thing "too permadeath" to them and if even that idea, those guys would ban.
If you know the game has permadeath and you will play it (so, you want to play the game), you already know you can lose all your stuff. No one is talking about puting a permadeath on a server is not permadeath, so players will know they can lose their stuff before they start to play.
Here, those guys that put "hours of sweat and blood" into their chars will know from the start they can lose it. If they dont want it, they dont play or start in the server without permadeath.
THE THING IS: By the time some player agree to play in the permadeath server, this player also agree to lose his char at any moment.
Diablo 2/3 Hardcore players are quite common, so I'm not sure why you think there's "hate" for the idea.
Lot of people have already chosen that playstyle.
I would love to see a triple "A" MMO developed that had amazing gameplay and graphics and everything you could ever desire - but had an enforced full loot/perma death rule to every server.
How many people would actually play a game that was everything they've ever asked for, dynamic and visceral combat, crazy indepth exploration/crafting/building, expansive character and item progression and customization, etc etc - except for the fact of this one harsh penalty to dying. How many people would play the game of their dreams (like 100x better than anything currently on the market) if it meant having to endure permadeath?
So curious....
Its not the haters, its not the guys that would never play it, but the ones that want to ban it.
Imagine those kids that not only hate justin bieber but really want to stop him from making music. But at least in the case of justin bieber his label pays to be on radio and in many cases you can't avoid him (and also the fact that his label pays to him be alot on the radio, remove other bands from radio, a thing that will never happens with permadeath 99% of mmorpgs dont have permadeath and mmorpgs will not turn into a permadeath feast if some start to do some games with it).
I think you are building up an imaginary opposition to your point of view. People just don't care playing permadeath games. There's no hate.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
How do you ban Permadeath? You mean like lobbying your Senator to make Diablo, Rogue and Dwarf Fortress illegal?
I agree, then. I'm 100% against Anti-Permadeath laws. Freedom! Let My People Die!
Sure I don't see why you couldn't have a full loot premadeath server for every MMO. I doubt they would have a heavy load, but if that's what some people want then why not.
They could even send a big brute to your house an beat the snot out of you if you want even more realism.
I find it kind of funny how you start off saying "Sometimes they even compare it with the guy that like permadeath system deleting his char (in a normal mmorpg game withouth permadeath) ." then you go on to make your new poll idea where the game is 100% the same, just you essentially are forced to delete your character on one server. So the only difference is that everyone else has to start over if they die too. To me, that's essentially the same thing. You only dislike the idea of deleting your own character on a 'normal' non-permadeath game because everybody else isn't forced into doing it too. Really this is no different than being on a permadeath server with a group of more aggressive players who are less prone to be cautious and more likely to attack you on sight.
I'm not totally against permadeath games existing, but I still voted no, because you're ignoring the effect having a permadeath server at all would have on the overall game design. Permadeath and non-permadeath gameplay really don't mix all that well in the long run, one has to suffer to make the other interesting. Or maybe you recognize this, and this is why you don't want to just delete your character on a game without permadeath.
All that aside, the people who don't want any permadeath game to be made ever realize that there's a finite number of resources in the world. There aren't an infinite number of game developers, so for every permadeath game made, essentially one less game of another style isn't made. This is why people often want only games(or movies, or TV shows) they like to be made and want all others to fail so they're less likely to make similar in the future, and more likely to make what said person enjoys. It's actually fairly rampant on these forums... And yeah, it's a rather self-centered view point, but it's rather logical in its own way.
I'm not against perma death. I just won't play them. I love a harsh death penalty, but perma is a bit much for me. I really enjoy progression in an MMO. A long drawn out game, customizing my character, growing in power and skill.
Often perma death games, any progression is extremely fast and practically meaningless, to counter the fact you'll lose your character. So remaking your new character and leveling up is quite quick. I find that type of gameplay boring and counter to the type of game I want to play.
I think permadeath is a rather boring solution to the problem of making death interesting.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You have to realize that
1) People who instantly (with real hatred, I mean real HATE, like they want the idea to actually cease to exist and get angry at the concept) say no to the idea of permadeath, no matter how it's implemented, are morons.
2) People don't care what a game's concepts or features have: they care that it is fun.
3) Most people have the brain power of nothing more than a brain stem, and are thus incapable of understanding that permadeath doesn't necessarily mean WoW + Permadeath. These types read "permadeath", ignore all other text, and imagine WoW with Permadeath, and then get angry/belligerent in their reply.
4) People don't know what they want, and have no idea what would be fun until they actually try it.
But most of all...
5) The people here, especially the vocal/angry ones, are in the minority. The majority of the populous don't care or even know what "permadeath" is and don't care if the game has it: they care if the game is FUN or not. They care if the game is GOOD or not. The care if the design has DEPTH and is well designed or not. No one here is a good representative of "most people" and instead can only speak to their niche group. Most people don't post on forums.
If you're interested in that last line, try looking up Battlefield Online (I think that was the game?) where they added in a cash shop and got a massive amount of people on forums going full-on-hatred with flooded topics hating hte idea and demanding it to change.
They didn't change it. They kept it. Then they got rich and successful and went on to make a 2nd version of the game. Turns out that vocal angry forum members were <1% of players, and their opinion was worthless in relation to the game's success.
Just goes to show...
6) Even if 99% of a popular forum like this votes permadeath as a bad idea, that might not be the truth. 99% of players may love the idea and pay big money because of it. You'll never know until you do it, and do it right.
I have no problem with an "Iron man" server. (As long the server is a choice. PVP, PVE, RP, IM)
I don't really see many people complaining about permadeath because I don't see many games that have it. DayZ as a mod has it I think.
If you want to try permadeath just go try 'Realm of the Mad God' and see if you like it. Personally I don't. You get tired of permadeath pretty fast.
I don't have a problem with servers with permadeath for those that want it. But I think it is a minority which is why hardly any MMO's have it.
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