The problem with all mmos who feature world pvp is that they fail to properly challenge hardcore pvpers and properly protect pveers. This model fixes that issue...in my opinion.
How would you change openworld pvp to make it palatable for the masses?
100% wrong. Don't build a " karma system ". They don't work in the real world and they certainly won't work in a virtual world.
EvE is a good example of an open world system that works.
I am one of the masses and I have no desire to PvP.
Why are you making a game for me?
Plenty o0f threads and games that cater to you and really no reason to come here and tell us your personal likes/dislikes since it adds noting to the conversation. If you have a suggestion that fits the theme of this thread, please feel free to contribute.
I generally do not pop into a thread about baking and say "I dont like cake, I enjoy Steak and Eggs:"- That would be silly =P
Theres nothing that would make open world PvP mainstream in an MMO. PvE has always been and forever remain the main drawing point for any RPG type of game, mmoRPG's included.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
You have to have a solid, but dynamic economy that allows for genuine scarcity. Knowing that people are risk averse, you have to either tweak things from a design perspective in order to make safe or low-risk competition strategies more expensive, or allow the players to do it themselves from rational decision making.
Taking things should give you influence over others decisions, and the more you hold, the more your risk should expand exponenentially. Risk from small groups should be just as real, if completely different, as risk from large rival groups. Assets lost should remain lost until you win them back, but there should always be an angle to force a decision about losing an asset or attempting to defend it.
EVE is pretty good, but it doesn't accomodate small groups for having a noticeable material impact on the assets of larger groups.
Where open world pvp in an mmoRPG breaks down is that the RP part is instantly chucked out the window in a consequence free mass killing spree that makes playing in a supposedly persistant rp world completely ridiculous.
To make it work you'd need lore in place that supports strong motivation to not run around killing everyone you see, as well as a publisher committed enough to the idea that they police it strictly enough to the point they have no qualms permabanning the type of player for whom the presence of PVP in any context make everything else cease to exist.
To have acceptable op pvp you would have to have a separate path for pve'ers to progress. Say a protected underground system. Then over world is pvp. As with eve if you force pve'ers to run a gauntlet you run the risk of the ove rewards not worth that risk and pve'ers leave. You would be better to have in that over world pvp area benefits to the pve that would encourgage the pve'ers to venture out into the pvp zone but know in their mind they can always go back to the underworld if they get frustrated.
Where open world pvp in an mmoRPG breaks down is that the RP part is instantly chucked out the window in a consequence free mass killing spree that makes playing in a supposedly persistant rp world completely ridiculous.
To make it work you'd need lore in place that supports strong motivation to not run around killing everyone you see, as well as a publisher committed enough to the idea that they police it strictly enough to the point they have no qualms permabanning the type of player for whom the presence of PVP in any context make everything else cease to exist.
Yes-
You need some REAL harcore consxequenses for those who CHOOSE to murder.... Like (as I said) if you kill so many people within a 24 hour period you can be perma killed (i.e. If you die, your toon is erased) during the next few hours.
This allows the "choice" to kill but also allows the "victims" to band together and permanently remove the griefer.
The reason it doesnt ever work is because there really is no punishment. We need real punishment so people have to really THINK about their choices.
Then add "Guild Wars" over territory control (Ryzom has a good system for this) where you can kill opther guild you have declared war on with no penalty (assuming they accept the War)
Thinktank...the thread is about op pvp being mainstream for the masses. Forced pvp is never ever ever ever going to be mainstream in the near future or maybe ever. Eve does goid with its balance but it is not main stream or gor the masses. Taking eves ideas you can make a good game but when i think the masses i think wow numbers. As in millions moving in and out with a million stable base. That is not eve's design. It does not need millions to be successful but the op said mainstream and for the masses.
Originally posted by Ausare Thinktank...the thread is about op pvp being mainstream for the masses. Forced pvp is never ever ever ever going to be mainstream in the near future or maybe ever. Eve does goid with its balance but it is not main stream or gor the masses. Taking eves ideas you can make a good game but when i think the masses i think wow numbers. As in millions moving in and out with a million stable base. That is not eve's design. It does not need millions to be successful but the op said mainstream and for the masses.
I disagree. Your requirements of millions is completely off base. WOW is the only MMO in the western hemisphere that has that number of subscribers. Lots of new MMOs get that many box sales, but WOW is the only one with those sustained numbers. IMHO, the only reason that EVE doesn't have a larger following is because players are a spaceship.
" Forced PvP " is openworld pvp. It is pvp that can happen at anytime. aka Free For All (FFA)
hardcore is arena pvp like in wow. The top arena teams of wow would pwn everyone no matter what mmo.
I hope to god you are joking. Loling IRL....
Hope he is joking.. lol. Real PvP requires strategy and cunning. Sometimes ruthlessness.. :P In WoW arena's it comes down to execution and gear.
Ehm... To my understanding playing WoW on the E-sport level, everyone gets access to the same gear. So it really is about execution, strategy, build and cunning.
You owe him an apology.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The question was: What would YOU do to make open World PVP blah, blah, blah-
Some people seeem to take that as an invitation to explain why THEY wouldnt play a PVP game. Or why it "wouldnt work" (Cost , LOL- Cmon these games cost LESS to make today once you get rid of cut scenes and voice overs)
Anyhow- You dont like PVP, YOU wont spend money on it It wont work you say- We dont CARE. This was a thread for discussion of how it COULD work, thanbks. Derailing because YOU dont like to PVP is not an excuse.
"Could"?? I guess if one wants to bask in ones own delusions/illusions, thats always an option. ^^ But the reality is that the vast majority of the modern western gaming population doesn't want, and would not tolerate open world PvP (in the sense it was used in the past). Thats not going to change, no matter how creative people get in design. If a design allows ganking/griefing, its a non starter.
The question was: What would YOU do to make open World PVP blah, blah, blah-
Some people seeem to take that as an invitation to explain why THEY wouldnt play a PVP game. Or why it "wouldnt work" (Cost , LOL- Cmon these games cost LESS to make today once you get rid of cut scenes and voice overs)
Anyhow- You dont like PVP, YOU wont spend money on it It wont work you say- We dont CARE. This was a thread for discussion of how it COULD work, thanbks. Derailing because YOU dont like to PVP is not an excuse.
"Could"?? I guess if one wants to bask in ones own delusions/illusions, thats always an option. ^^ But the reality is that the vast majority of the modern western gaming population doesn't want, and would not tolerate open world PvP (in the sense it was used in the past). Thats not going to change, no matter how creative people get in design. If a design allows ganking/griefing, its a non starter.
I do not disagree with you- Not one bit...
BUT the point of this thread isnt to debate what the masses want or do not want (not the individual) but to brainstorm on ways this COULD be brought to the masses.
This is a discussion about a theoretical issue- Not the issue itself.
Trust me- I KNOW we will never get anything with PVP (nor depth for that matter) into the mainstream at this point. The genre will continue to dumb itself down to attract the widest audienced- This movement will come from Niche Developers- But that isnt the point of this discussion.
EDIT: Essentially you and I are in full agreement.
Issue is that most of the players in a mmo want there enjoyment when or how they want it. Open world pvp is inharently chaotic and unpredictable, since it can happen anywhere regardless of the desires of the player that is being attacked. This fliess in the face fo the maintream desire for enjoyment in there own fashion, timeframe, and style. Also making somethign like world pvp that would be able to be accepted by the playerbase at large not just the hardcore pvp an ow pvp group set, would defeat that purpose as it would be a "bastardized" version of what could be.
You would need to make ganking an griefing actually have big/harh penalties for doing them to minimize the fact of player at large dealing with it. Then making the world pvp having goal, objectives, factions to ally with, and actual meaning behind doin it over jut grinding out poinnt or gear alone. Pvp should really not be the forefront of the game, but like pve content fights which are the glue that holds the pve content together as well is a backdrop to the actual events happening.
Comments
100% wrong. Don't build a " karma system ". They don't work in the real world and they certainly won't work in a virtual world.
EvE is a good example of an open world system that works.
I hope to god you are joking. Loling IRL....
I am one of the masses and I have no desire to PvP.
Why are you making a game for me?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Plenty o0f threads and games that cater to you and really no reason to come here and tell us your personal likes/dislikes since it adds noting to the conversation. If you have a suggestion that fits the theme of this thread, please feel free to contribute.
I generally do not pop into a thread about baking and say "I dont like cake, I enjoy Steak and Eggs:"- That would be silly =P
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Thanks Ausare!
Merely saying that I agree hardcore for the masses is probably not a good idea.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
You have to have a solid, but dynamic economy that allows for genuine scarcity. Knowing that people are risk averse, you have to either tweak things from a design perspective in order to make safe or low-risk competition strategies more expensive, or allow the players to do it themselves from rational decision making.
Taking things should give you influence over others decisions, and the more you hold, the more your risk should expand exponenentially. Risk from small groups should be just as real, if completely different, as risk from large rival groups. Assets lost should remain lost until you win them back, but there should always be an angle to force a decision about losing an asset or attempting to defend it.
EVE is pretty good, but it doesn't accomodate small groups for having a noticeable material impact on the assets of larger groups.
How is that fail? If they segregated PvP and PvE, then how will there ever be mass PvP?
Where open world pvp in an mmoRPG breaks down is that the RP part is instantly chucked out the window in a consequence free mass killing spree that makes playing in a supposedly persistant rp world completely ridiculous.
To make it work you'd need lore in place that supports strong motivation to not run around killing everyone you see, as well as a publisher committed enough to the idea that they police it strictly enough to the point they have no qualms permabanning the type of player for whom the presence of PVP in any context make everything else cease to exist.
Yes-
You need some REAL harcore consxequenses for those who CHOOSE to murder.... Like (as I said) if you kill so many people within a 24 hour period you can be perma killed (i.e. If you die, your toon is erased) during the next few hours.
This allows the "choice" to kill but also allows the "victims" to band together and permanently remove the griefer.
The reason it doesnt ever work is because there really is no punishment. We need real punishment so people have to really THINK about their choices.
Then add "Guild Wars" over territory control (Ryzom has a good system for this) where you can kill opther guild you have declared war on with no penalty (assuming they accept the War)
I disagree. Your requirements of millions is completely off base. WOW is the only MMO in the western hemisphere that has that number of subscribers. Lots of new MMOs get that many box sales, but WOW is the only one with those sustained numbers. IMHO, the only reason that EVE doesn't have a larger following is because players are a spaceship.
" Forced PvP " is openworld pvp. It is pvp that can happen at anytime. aka Free For All (FFA)
Ehm... To my understanding playing WoW on the E-sport level, everyone gets access to the same gear. So it really is about execution, strategy, build and cunning.
You owe him an apology.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Down with exploitable flagging systems.
Down with flawed bounty systems.
Down with impractical GM imposed rules.
Down with player policing - it does not work.
Down with excessive penalties over something that is obviously fun. If you need to do this, why allow it in the first place?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"Could"?? I guess if one wants to bask in ones own delusions/illusions, thats always an option. ^^ But the reality is that the vast majority of the modern western gaming population doesn't want, and would not tolerate open world PvP (in the sense it was used in the past). Thats not going to change, no matter how creative people get in design. If a design allows ganking/griefing, its a non starter.
I do not disagree with you- Not one bit...
BUT the point of this thread isnt to debate what the masses want or do not want (not the individual) but to brainstorm on ways this COULD be brought to the masses.
This is a discussion about a theoretical issue- Not the issue itself.
Trust me- I KNOW we will never get anything with PVP (nor depth for that matter) into the mainstream at this point. The genre will continue to dumb itself down to attract the widest audienced- This movement will come from Niche Developers- But that isnt the point of this discussion.
EDIT: Essentially you and I are in full agreement.
Issue is that most of the players in a mmo want there enjoyment when or how they want it. Open world pvp is inharently chaotic and unpredictable, since it can happen anywhere regardless of the desires of the player that is being attacked. This fliess in the face fo the maintream desire for enjoyment in there own fashion, timeframe, and style. Also making somethign like world pvp that would be able to be accepted by the playerbase at large not just the hardcore pvp an ow pvp group set, would defeat that purpose as it would be a "bastardized" version of what could be.
You would need to make ganking an griefing actually have big/harh penalties for doing them to minimize the fact of player at large dealing with it. Then making the world pvp having goal, objectives, factions to ally with, and actual meaning behind doin it over jut grinding out poinnt or gear alone. Pvp should really not be the forefront of the game, but like pve content fights which are the glue that holds the pve content together as well is a backdrop to the actual events happening.