While I haven't played D3, and probably never will because I just haven't heard enough to justify 60 dollars, I don't think it's a bad game. I do think, however, that given the targets that each game was trying to reach, that TL2 has already been far more successful than D3 ever will likely be. D3 will still probably sell more copies and have more players, but it will never live up to the hype and expectations put on it by both Blizzard and Diablo fans. There are simply too many problems inherent in the basic design (RMAH being the biggest one) that limit how much devs can actually correct the complaints about the game. TL2, on the other hand, has met every challenge it set out to meet and even beat several of them quite comfortably. It may never be the mainstream success that D3 is, but it doesn't have to be. It set out to be a fast-paced, loot driven hack and slash and it has done so with flying colors. It's not perfect, the artwork is a bit cartoony, there are aspects of the story that are clearly cut and paste from other games, but all the things people are complaining about were never really top priorities of either TL2 or it's predecessor, so it really shouldn't be all that surprising that they are a bit weaker. In the end, I just think that TL2 set more realisitic goals, expecations, and price for the game, and while D3 is still probably a very good game, I just can't see myself justifying the 60 dollars for D3 anytime soon between the decent, but far from groundbreaking, gameplay and even more problematic security issues that Blizzard seems to not care about (telling the customers it's entirely on them to take care of it is not an acceptable answer from a company that could easily spare 1% of the profits and plug most of the holes).
Originally posted by sunshadow21 While I haven't played D3, and probably never will because I just haven't heard enough to justify 60 dollars, I don't think it's a bad game. I do think, however, that given the targets that each game was trying to reach, that TL2 has already been far more successful than D3 ever will likely be. D3 will still probably sell more copies and have more players, but it will never live up to the hype and expectations put on it by both Blizzard and Diablo fans. There are simply too many problems inherent in the basic design (RMAH being the biggest one) that limit how much devs can actually correct the complaints about the game. TL2, on the other hand, has met every challenge it set out to meet and even beat several of them quite comfortably. It may never be the mainstream success that D3 is, but it doesn't have to be. It set out to be a fast-paced, loot driven hack and slash and it has done so with flying colors. It's not perfect, the artwork is a bit cartoony, there are aspects of the story that are clearly cut and paste from other games, but all the things people are complaining about were never really top priorities of either TL2 or it's predecessor, so it really shouldn't be all that surprising that they are a bit weaker. In the end, I just think that TL2 set more realisitic goals, expecations, and price for the game, and while D3 is still probably a very good game, I just can't see myself justifying the 60 dollars for D3 anytime soon between the decent, but far from groundbreaking, gameplay and even more problematic security issues that Blizzard seems to not care about (telling the customers it's entirely on them to take care of it is not an acceptable answer from a company that could easily spare 1% of the profits and plug most of the holes).
Frankly, the only area D3 excels in is story. Which considering it is a H&S isn't saying much. They're both weak overall but D3 is better. Outside of that TL2 has a lot more value and appeal for the long term H&S player.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It's a good game like D3 is a good game but yeah PoE seems the best option. Still, i'll be playing TL2 for atleast a week or so so i've got my $20 worth out of it.
Pretty much backwards in terms of quality and how many people will play each game.POE is a piece of crap.
D2 > D3 > TQ > TL2 > TL1 > POE
Where did the bad PoE touch you?
It just strikes me as odd that you would put D2 first and the game which is arguably closest to it in its gameplay and setup as last.
Flame on!
It's because POE gets it more wrong than any of the listed games do. POE literally has every element of the genre wrong or at least VERY poorly implemented. Get the combat right, from the start and then improve the music and art/animations and they may have a chance.
People kept hijacking D3 threads claiming POE was the real deal and what D3 should have been. I've tried it twice on free weekends and quit both times on the first free day. I WANT a real successor to D2, but it sure as hell isn't POE. My next hope is on Lineage Eternal as D3 and TL2 aren't the real deal either.
Why did they choose a "passive" skill tree and skill gems/runes? Really, what a horrible design. They also get tons of feedback and are VERY closed to altering the biggest problems.
They also haven't defined how their cash shop will work and if they will actually sell full respecs for cash. If they do only make full respecs available for cash then good luck to them.
Way to use many words and say absolutely nothing.
I will stay at my original "he did not like it", ok?
Flame on!
Obversver POV: Obviously, you like it more than he does. His post actually had substance explaining his disdain for the game. On the other hand, all you have to show are smiley faces for your lack of any thing relevant to say.
That said, I'm looking forward to POE. Its item customization actually holds more interest to me than TL2's cookie-cutter formula.
Saying "Why did they choose a "passive" skill tree and skill gems/runes? Really, what a horrible design." or "POE literally has every element of the genre wrong or at least VERY poorly implemented" without explaining "how" and "why" is no different than saying "I dont like it", which is fair enough, but where do you see SUBSTANCE? Tell me, i am flawed as the next guy (if not more ).
The only 2 concrete points i saw were "respecs for money", which are unlikely considering they want to have the cash shop a'la TF2 for attire, and respec point items can be grinded and traded for anyways; and "feedback", which is questionable, there were 3 big patches the month i played it, changing even significant mechanics, so while it currently plays as a complete game, they still treat it as a early beta (last time i read they will completely change resist mechanics to go in line with d2 higher difficulty -resist).
Pretty much backwards in terms of quality and how many people will play each game.POE is a piece of crap.
D2 > D3 > TQ > TL2 > TL1 > POE
Where did the bad PoE touch you?
It just strikes me as odd that you would put D2 first and the game which is arguably closest to it in its gameplay and setup as last.
Flame on!
It's because POE gets it more wrong than any of the listed games do. POE literally has every element of the genre wrong or at least VERY poorly implemented. Get the combat right, from the start and then improve the music and art/animations and they may have a chance.
People kept hijacking D3 threads claiming POE was the real deal and what D3 should have been. I've tried it twice on free weekends and quit both times on the first free day. I WANT a real successor to D2, but it sure as hell isn't POE. My next hope is on Lineage Eternal as D3 and TL2 aren't the real deal either.
Why did they choose a "passive" skill tree and skill gems/runes? Really, what a horrible design. They also get tons of feedback and are VERY closed to altering the biggest problems.
They also haven't defined how their cash shop will work and if they will actually sell full respecs for cash. If they do only make full respecs available for cash then good luck to them.
Way to use many words and say absolutely nothing.
I will stay at my original "he did not like it", ok?
Flame on!
Obversver POV: Obviously, you like it more than he does. His post actually had substance explaining his disdain for the game. On the other hand, all you have to show are smiley faces for your lack of any thing relevant to say.
That said, I'm looking forward to POE. Its item customization actually holds more interest to me than TL2's cookie-cutter formula.
Saying "Why did they choose a "passive" skill tree and skill gems/runes? Really, what a horrible design." or "POE literally has every element of the genre wrong or at least VERY poorly implemented" without explaining "how" and "why" is no different than saying "I dont like it", which is fair enough, but where do you see SUBSTANCE? Tell me, i am flawed as the next guy (if not more ).
The only 2 concrete points i saw were "respecs for money", which are unlikely considering they want to have the cash shop a'la TF2 for attire, and respec point items can be grinded and traded for anyways; and "feedback", which is questionable, there were 3 big patches the month i played it, changing even significant mechanics, so while it currently plays as a complete game, they still treat it as a early beta (last time i read they will completely change resist mechanics to go in line with d2 higher difficulty -resist).
Flame on!
Albeit poorly written, you finally managed to say something. Good.
Unlike you, he actually explained his disdain for the game. You mentioned that "It just strikes me as odd that you would put D2 first and the game which is arguably closest to it in its gameplay and setup as last. " - Now, this strikes me as odd since TL2 is actually closer in gameplay and setup. Relatively, the customization in POE is more unique when compared to TL2 and D2 which are almost alike.
Albeit poorly written, you finally managed to say something. Good.
Unlike you, he actually explained his disdain for the game. You mentioned that "It just strikes me as odd that you would put D2 first and the game which is arguably closest to it in its gameplay and setup as last. " - Now, this strikes me as odd since TL2 is actually closer in gameplay and setup. Relatively, the customization in POE is more unique when compared to TL2 and D2 which are almost alike.
Interesting argument all round. It was getting a bit lengthy so didn't post the entire line of posts.
I agree with you that TL2 is closer in gameplay and setup to D2 than D3 is. I have not tried PoE at all, and not really interested in an ARPG MMO, which is why I probably won't try it. I have reasons for that I won't get into here.
Why do I feel TL2 is more similar to D2 than D3 is? The open worldness of the explorable areas, though TL2 is even more open than D2 was in that sense: D2 had smaller areas, but more of them, TL2 fewer areas but larger. Many of D2's play systems are in place that are no longer in D3, like gambling, transmutation of objects, loot that is highly customizable and offers a huge array of different stats, lots of variation in looks of gear, more randomization, etc.
TL2 also has some things in it that D2 didn't have. As I explained before in a different thread, there are designed dungeons or challenges that never existed in D2. You have to solve puzzles or do certain activities in order to beat the board. This is more of a Gauntlet style thing than D2.
Lastly, I find it hard to compare D1 to D2, and TL1 to TL2. TL1 and D1 are more similar to each other, whereas for style of game TL1 and TL2 have a lot of differences.
Albeit poorly written, you finally managed to say something. Good.
Unlike you, he actually explained his disdain for the game. You mentioned that "It just strikes me as odd that you would put D2 first and the game which is arguably closest to it in its gameplay and setup as last. " - Now, this strikes me as odd since TL2 is actually closer in gameplay and setup. Relatively, the customization in POE is more unique when compared to TL2 and D2 which are almost alike.
On the other hand, you said nothing, particularly in which way he EXPLAINED his disdain. I have just seen (understood) him EXPRESS it. Slight difference.
As for the differences, we could be talking about which is where all day, everyone favors different aspects of the games, i was just asking why PoE is last, having nearly identical gameplay aspects to d2 (auras, fhr and lifesteal mechanics in particular), but you can also judge solely on the existence or lack of a skill tree, and then we have a completely different discussion, and it is a fair point, not PoE sucks (why?) , gets it all wrong (what?), horrible design (why?).
I've played TL2 once as a berserker on normal. I'm now rerolling on veteran difficulty.
TL2 trees are mainly active trees with skill ups for those active skills. TL2 skill trees aren't really trees as they have no prerequisities other than levels.
You can mix and match from three different "trees" however you like, with the restriction being which skills are available at each level. In this way D3 and TL2 are similar. But D3 allows you to make any build you want on the fly. TL2 has an unforgiving system that only allows you to change the last three skill point allocations. Full respecs are available, but they will flag you as a "cheater". Unless you use a workaround that exploits the system to prevent that flag from appearing.
Any modern ARPG developer that prevents full respecs is clinging to the idea that a player needs to start over if they made a mistake or wants to try a different build. They try to make up for a lack of content by urging rerolls. Good luck getting players today to buy such a game in massive numbers.
The overall story and mythology are weak. Like, really, really weak. It makes D3 story telling look like it was written by George R.R. Martin. The monsters in the game are pretty forgettable.
With that being said, the game was fun from the start, assuming you picked the right difficulty. The itemization is good but not great. Both D3 and TL2 really dumbed down the itemization and stats of D2. When something works, there's no reason to try and fix it.
Overall I'd give TL2 a 6/10 with points deducted for dated and extremely cartoony graphics, lack of closed servers, lack of full respecs, poor group finding tools (can't easily match with people on the same quest), weak itemization and over reliance on resists(in this case elemental armor).
D3 would get a 7.5/10 from me for more diverse builds, ease of full respecs, much more content, closed servers and slightly more fun combat.
I couldn't possibly grade POE. That game wasn't fun in my two tries on the kind of class I always like. I hated the low level skills and combat, the art direction, the music, the passive only skill tree and poor grouping tools. It's simply not very fun to earn a skill point and only get things like +5 strength. For pure fun per level increase, TL2 wins hands down. Unlocking new skills on a level up or increasing their power is great. Something severely lacking in D3 and POE.
There's plenty of room out there for a true heir to D2. It's just not going to be D3, TL2 or POE.
Overall I'd give TL2 a 6/10 with points deducted for dated and extremely cartoony graphics, lack of closed servers, lack of full respecs, poor group finding tools (can't easily match with people on the same quest), weak itemization and over reliance on resists(in this case elemental armor).
D3 would get a 7.5/10 from me for more diverse builds, ease of full respecs, much more content, closed servers and slightly more fun combat.
Uh, what? TL2 is a longer game with more stuff in it than D3 is. It has taken me way longer to complete TL2 than D3!
I pre-ordered the game months ago, I played on release day, got to level 50 something, and then I just couldnt drag myself to log in again...
Its not even the graphics, its the utterly pointless storyline and loot hunting in a single player game... Had they implemented a secure server where your progress is there for the world to see and play legit with people, I would have dropped diablo in the blink of an eye.
TL2 doesnt take itself too seriously & is thus fun which for me is of primary importance.
TL2 will have people playing it for a long time, the TL community is strong & lived a long time and thats with no multiplayer in the first game. TL2 with the added multiplayer will be quite a busy hive for a few years yet.
One of the things that kept so many players playing TL1 was the many combinations of skills in the skill tree, this will continue with TL2.
For me TL & TL2 represents everything I loved about Diablo (unsurprising given Runics founding fathers) with a lot of decent improvements and some logical progression of the genre. I stayed away from D3 after I found I didnt enjoy D2 anywhere near as much as Diablo and had to force myself to grind out to the end of D2 and then never replayed, something I never had trouble with in Diablo. Besides at the Price Runic is asking for a sequel to a game I quite enjoyed with absoultely no DRM...... Its an instant purchase.
Lastly the Kotaku Piece is just an Opinion piece and only the opinions of one writer therefore should not be taken too seriously IMHO. Far be it for me to suggest they may have posted a controversial Opinion Piece to generate traffic.....
I want to wait a month or so to see how many people are still playing TL2. I'm pretty close to buying it, but I have a feeling it won't last me as many hours as even D3 did.
That article was ridiculously biased, especially by the glow of a newly released game.
Both are largely single player games with some very limited multi-player elements. Why would how many people playing it matter at all?
Lol did someone say Torchlight 2 had weak itemisation compared to BUY BUY BUY on out real money auction house 3!
Also apparently it makes up for lack of content by not having a respec? When its a longer game than diablo3 with its trick of front loading all its content in act 1. Also off no respecs is making up for lack of content, what the hell is; A) forcing you to play through noob difficulty before you can play at a fun difficulty forcing you to repeat grind sections (or give blizzard a cut on the rmah) by having such a low drop rate on gear you need to progress.
The only thing d3 has over tl2 is graphics. And tl2 graphics while simpler have a consistent art style. Are modern gamers so shallow that graphics is THAT important compared to gameplay.
TL2 is a classic. I'm going to say something controversial. In my opinion its the best ARPG ever, evenbetter than original diablo
Any modern ARPG developer that prevents full respecs is clinging to the idea that a player needs to start over if they made a mistake or wants to try a different build. They try to make up for a lack of content by urging rerolls. Good luck getting players today to buy such a game in massive numbers.
I think this is a moot point given the difficulty choices. Moreover when you actually look at most of the skills, which have either %weapon dps or *based on character level, there is not much difference if you have +10 or +12 (thus 2 ponts to assign wrongly). But on the other hand, insane people did reroll for a single point in axe mastery instead of sword mastery in d2...
What is personally annoying for me is the targeting and movement system, together with the quite questionable choice of allowing projectiles to fly trough objects, but not spells, as a mage you are nearly constantly out of los, due to stairs, bushes, urns, rocks...
TL2 is a classic. I'm going to say something controversial. In my opinion its the best ARPG ever, evenbetter than original diablo
That is a HUGE call. That said I can see how you can make that argument. As I said in my first post in this thread, TL2 encapsulates everything I loved from Diablo and adds to it so you could be onto something.
What do you think? How does TL2 stack up to D3 from your experience so far?
For me, I slightly prefer the D3 art style (less cartoony, darker) but I still like that of TL2m, which is starting to grow on me. I also like the D3 combat animations a bit better, but I am still only to level 5-6 on all four TL2 classes. Yes, I know it's still early.
But I really do love the options for offline and LAN modes in TL2. I also love the price point difference. I am having a lot of fun with TL2, so back to it now.
It's really quite simple.
From a gameplay standpoint, Torchlight 2 just blows Diablo 3 out of the water. It's superior on every lvl. Actually interesting loot, fun & rewarding skills, good online & offline group play. Good single player experience. Pleanty of exploration outside of the the main questline. Mod community support. You really can't get much more bang for your buck off a 20$ game. It really should be a no-brainer if you like dungeon crawlers. Unless you are so strapped for cash that 20$ is a huge investment for you.
What D3 does have over Torchlight 2, is graphics. TL2 is very cartoony. D3 is still cartoony, but it hides it w/ a very gothic setting.
So basically, if you don't care about good gameplay, and all you really want in a video game is a gothic art style, then D3 is for you. If a game having good gameplay is important to you, and you enjoy dungeon crawlers, then there really is no good reason to not get torchlight 2. It's just a really damn good, fun game.
Yeah, I think diablo had better story and memorable characters. But arpgs aren't really about story. Torchlight 2 really powers the arpg experience with.
The pet - fantastic, no more constant journeys back and forth to town. The randomness - each playthrough is so different, with cool things like the phase beast challenges, secret areas, puzzles, dungeons that aren't on every play etc.. The pace - its so fast and actiony, which is what you want from an arpg.
TL2 is a classic. I'm going to say something controversial. In my opinion its the best ARPG ever, evenbetter than original diablo
That is a HUGE call. That said I can see how you can make that argument. As I said in my first post in this thread, TL2 encapsulates everything I loved from Diablo and adds to it so you could be onto something.
^
I wouldn't disagree (when it comes to dungeon crawlers at least). TL2 is what diablo 3 should've been (aside from the graphics). Some of the original creators for the diablo IP worked on TL2, and they not only improved upon the ideas they started to in D1 & 2, but they also learned from the mistakes D3 made, and tweaked their game accordingly prior to release.
2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain
3) More interesting classes
4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)
5) More interesting universe and story
6) More adult oriented minions
7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).
Neither game implemented runewords, charms or many other things that made D2 special.
Right now I'm playing TL2. It's a great single player game but full of hackers that are already able to cheat without having a flag.
I played TL1 for about two weeks and got bored. They totally borked item drops in that game somewhere around level 40. I did keep up with checking out the multiplayer mods people were proposing but they never beared fruit.
I expect to play a little longer in TL2, but it will likely be a very niche game a few months from now. And you'll never know if someone hacked their character.
More interesting classes - err no, they all play one way only, you have way more flexibility in tl2.
E.g. with an engineer you can Go around smaking the hell out of stuff with a hander, make a summoner build, make a group focused heal / support build, make a s+b tank build, make a cannon totting rdps build.
7 - nope dev team devoted to making as much money as possible outta the rmah
6 - what the hell is more adult orientated minions, do you get a pet Gimp or something?
2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain
3) More interesting classes
4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)
5) More interesting universe and story
6) More adult oriented minions
7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).
Obviously no one can argue with an opinion, but 3-6 seem wildly subjective. I think the Engineer is much more interesting than Barbarian, in fact I've always groaned at Diablo's slavish implementation of the classic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue trope. While TL2's story was sort of hand-wavy, it doesn't sink to the level of D3's narrative fail.
And why is "adult minions" listed as a plus for D3? I like my ferret far more than I ever liked my Paladin, but more importantly my ferret is a viable combat partner without a thousand dollars of gear festooning it. No comparision between the two games minions should ever end up with D3 ahead.
2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain
3) More interesting classes
4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)
5) More interesting universe and story
6) More adult oriented minions
7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).
Obviously no one can argue with an opinion, but 3-6 seem wildly subjective. I think the Engineer is much more interesting than Barbarian, in fact I've always groaned at Diablo's slavish implementation of the classic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue trope. While TL2's story was sort of hand-wavy, it doesn't sink to the level of D3's narrative fail.
And why is "adult minions" listed as a plus for D3? I like my ferret far more than I ever liked my Paladin, but more importantly my ferret is a viable combat partner without a thousand dollars of gear festooning it. No comparision between the two games minions should ever end up with D3 ahead.
I think
Barb > Berserker
DH > outlander
Wizard > embermage
WD & Monk > Engineer
I think the three classes with real counterparts are just more enjoyable in D3.
Comments
IMO:
D2 >>> TQ >>> D3 > POE > TL1 > TL2
Frankly, the only area D3 excels in is story. Which considering it is a H&S isn't saying much. They're both weak overall but D3 is better. Outside of that TL2 has a lot more value and appeal for the long term H&S player.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Saying "Why did they choose a "passive" skill tree and skill gems/runes? Really, what a horrible design." or "POE literally has every element of the genre wrong or at least VERY poorly implemented" without explaining "how" and "why" is no different than saying "I dont like it", which is fair enough, but where do you see SUBSTANCE? Tell me, i am flawed as the next guy (if not more
).
The only 2 concrete points i saw were "respecs for money", which are unlikely considering they want to have the cash shop a'la TF2 for attire, and respec point items can be grinded and traded for anyways; and "feedback", which is questionable, there were 3 big patches the month i played it, changing even significant mechanics, so while it currently plays as a complete game, they still treat it as a early beta (last time i read they will completely change resist mechanics to go in line with d2 higher difficulty -resist).
Flame on!
Albeit poorly written, you finally managed to say something. Good.
Unlike you, he actually explained his disdain for the game. You mentioned that "It just strikes me as odd that you would put D2 first and the game which is arguably closest to it in its gameplay and setup as last. " - Now, this strikes me as odd since TL2 is actually closer in gameplay and setup. Relatively, the customization in POE is more unique when compared to TL2 and D2 which are almost alike.
Interesting argument all round. It was getting a bit lengthy so didn't post the entire line of posts.
I agree with you that TL2 is closer in gameplay and setup to D2 than D3 is. I have not tried PoE at all, and not really interested in an ARPG MMO, which is why I probably won't try it. I have reasons for that I won't get into here.
Why do I feel TL2 is more similar to D2 than D3 is? The open worldness of the explorable areas, though TL2 is even more open than D2 was in that sense: D2 had smaller areas, but more of them, TL2 fewer areas but larger. Many of D2's play systems are in place that are no longer in D3, like gambling, transmutation of objects, loot that is highly customizable and offers a huge array of different stats, lots of variation in looks of gear, more randomization, etc.
TL2 also has some things in it that D2 didn't have. As I explained before in a different thread, there are designed dungeons or challenges that never existed in D2. You have to solve puzzles or do certain activities in order to beat the board. This is more of a Gauntlet style thing than D2.
Lastly, I find it hard to compare D1 to D2, and TL1 to TL2. TL1 and D1 are more similar to each other, whereas for style of game TL1 and TL2 have a lot of differences.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
On the other hand, you said nothing, particularly in which way he EXPLAINED his disdain. I have just seen (understood) him EXPRESS it. Slight difference.
As for the differences, we could be talking about which is where all day, everyone favors different aspects of the games, i was just asking why PoE is last, having nearly identical gameplay aspects to d2 (auras, fhr and lifesteal mechanics in particular), but you can also judge solely on the existence or lack of a skill tree, and then we have a completely different discussion, and it is a fair point, not PoE sucks (why?) , gets it all wrong (what?), horrible design (why?).
Flame on!
I've played TL2 once as a berserker on normal. I'm now rerolling on veteran difficulty.
TL2 trees are mainly active trees with skill ups for those active skills. TL2 skill trees aren't really trees as they have no prerequisities other than levels.
You can mix and match from three different "trees" however you like, with the restriction being which skills are available at each level. In this way D3 and TL2 are similar. But D3 allows you to make any build you want on the fly. TL2 has an unforgiving system that only allows you to change the last three skill point allocations. Full respecs are available, but they will flag you as a "cheater". Unless you use a workaround that exploits the system to prevent that flag from appearing.
Any modern ARPG developer that prevents full respecs is clinging to the idea that a player needs to start over if they made a mistake or wants to try a different build. They try to make up for a lack of content by urging rerolls. Good luck getting players today to buy such a game in massive numbers.
The overall story and mythology are weak. Like, really, really weak. It makes D3 story telling look like it was written by George R.R. Martin. The monsters in the game are pretty forgettable.
With that being said, the game was fun from the start, assuming you picked the right difficulty. The itemization is good but not great. Both D3 and TL2 really dumbed down the itemization and stats of D2. When something works, there's no reason to try and fix it.
Overall I'd give TL2 a 6/10 with points deducted for dated and extremely cartoony graphics, lack of closed servers, lack of full respecs, poor group finding tools (can't easily match with people on the same quest), weak itemization and over reliance on resists(in this case elemental armor).
D3 would get a 7.5/10 from me for more diverse builds, ease of full respecs, much more content, closed servers and slightly more fun combat.
I couldn't possibly grade POE. That game wasn't fun in my two tries on the kind of class I always like. I hated the low level skills and combat, the art direction, the music, the passive only skill tree and poor grouping tools. It's simply not very fun to earn a skill point and only get things like +5 strength. For pure fun per level increase, TL2 wins hands down. Unlocking new skills on a level up or increasing their power is great. Something severely lacking in D3 and POE.
There's plenty of room out there for a true heir to D2. It's just not going to be D3, TL2 or POE.
I enjoy Torchlight 2 more then any other diablo type game Ive played.
PoE was the worst. I dunno why but I got extremely bored right from start
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I pre-ordered the game months ago, I played on release day, got to level 50 something, and then I just couldnt drag myself to log in again...
Its not even the graphics, its the utterly pointless storyline and loot hunting in a single player game... Had they implemented a secure server where your progress is there for the world to see and play legit with people, I would have dropped diablo in the blink of an eye.
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TL2 doesnt take itself too seriously & is thus fun which for me is of primary importance.
TL2 will have people playing it for a long time, the TL community is strong & lived a long time and thats with no multiplayer in the first game. TL2 with the added multiplayer will be quite a busy hive for a few years yet.
One of the things that kept so many players playing TL1 was the many combinations of skills in the skill tree, this will continue with TL2.
For me TL & TL2 represents everything I loved about Diablo (unsurprising given Runics founding fathers) with a lot of decent improvements and some logical progression of the genre. I stayed away from D3 after I found I didnt enjoy D2 anywhere near as much as Diablo and had to force myself to grind out to the end of D2 and then never replayed, something I never had trouble with in Diablo. Besides at the Price Runic is asking for a sequel to a game I quite enjoyed with absoultely no DRM...... Its an instant purchase.
Lastly the Kotaku Piece is just an Opinion piece and only the opinions of one writer therefore should not be taken too seriously IMHO. Far be it for me to suggest they may have posted a controversial Opinion Piece to generate traffic.....
Both are largely single player games with some very limited multi-player elements. Why would how many people playing it matter at all?
Also apparently it makes up for lack of content by not having a respec? When its a longer game than diablo3 with its trick of front loading all its content in act 1. Also off no respecs is making up for lack of content, what the hell is;
A) forcing you to play through noob difficulty before you can play at a fun difficulty
The only thing d3 has over tl2 is graphics. And tl2 graphics while simpler have a consistent art style. Are modern gamers so shallow that graphics is THAT important compared to gameplay.
TL2 is a classic. I'm going to say something controversial. In my opinion its the best ARPG ever, evenbetter than original diablo
I think this is a moot point given the difficulty choices. Moreover when you actually look at most of the skills, which have either %weapon dps or *based on character level, there is not much difference if you have +10 or +12 (thus 2 ponts to assign wrongly). But on the other hand, insane people did reroll for a single point in axe mastery instead of sword mastery in d2...
What is personally annoying for me is the targeting and movement system, together with the quite questionable choice of allowing projectiles to fly trough objects, but not spells, as a mage you are nearly constantly out of los, due to stairs, bushes, urns, rocks...
Flame on!
That is a HUGE call. That said I can see how you can make that argument. As I said in my first post in this thread, TL2 encapsulates everything I loved from Diablo and adds to it so you could be onto something.
It's really quite simple.
From a gameplay standpoint, Torchlight 2 just blows Diablo 3 out of the water. It's superior on every lvl. Actually interesting loot, fun & rewarding skills, good online & offline group play. Good single player experience. Pleanty of exploration outside of the the main questline. Mod community support. You really can't get much more bang for your buck off a 20$ game. It really should be a no-brainer if you like dungeon crawlers. Unless you are so strapped for cash that 20$ is a huge investment for you.
What D3 does have over Torchlight 2, is graphics. TL2 is very cartoony. D3 is still cartoony, but it hides it w/ a very gothic setting.
So basically, if you don't care about good gameplay, and all you really want in a video game is a gothic art style, then D3 is for you. If a game having good gameplay is important to you, and you enjoy dungeon crawlers, then there really is no good reason to not get torchlight 2. It's just a really damn good, fun game.
The pet - fantastic, no more constant journeys back and forth to town.
The randomness - each playthrough is so different, with cool things like the phase beast challenges, secret areas, puzzles, dungeons that aren't on every play etc..
The pace - its so fast and actiony, which is what you want from an arpg.
^
I wouldn't disagree (when it comes to dungeon crawlers at least). TL2 is what diablo 3 should've been (aside from the graphics). Some of the original creators for the diablo IP worked on TL2, and they not only improved upon the ideas they started to in D1 & 2, but they also learned from the mistakes D3 made, and tweaked their game accordingly prior to release.
Damn good game.
Nope. I said it had weak itemization. So does D3. Both have weak itemization compared to D2.
TL2 pluses over D3:
1) offline mode
2) sending pets to town
3) $20
4) actual stat allocation
5) skill tree with actual skill upgrades
6) D2-like soundtrack
D3 pluses over TL2:
1) closed servers - HUGE advantage in multiplayer
2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain
3) More interesting classes
4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)
5) More interesting universe and story
6) More adult oriented minions
7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).
Neither game implemented runewords, charms or many other things that made D2 special.
Right now I'm playing TL2. It's a great single player game but full of hackers that are already able to cheat without having a flag.
I played TL1 for about two weeks and got bored. They totally borked item drops in that game somewhere around level 40. I did keep up with checking out the multiplayer mods people were proposing but they never beared fruit.
I expect to play a little longer in TL2, but it will likely be a very niche game a few months from now. And you'll never know if someone hacked their character.
E.g. with an engineer you can
Go around smaking the hell out of stuff with a hander, make a summoner build, make a group focused heal / support build, make a s+b tank build, make a cannon totting rdps build.
7 - nope dev team devoted to making as much money as possible outta the rmah
6 - what the hell is more adult orientated minions, do you get a pet Gimp or something?
Obviously no one can argue with an opinion, but 3-6 seem wildly subjective. I think the Engineer is much more interesting than Barbarian, in fact I've always groaned at Diablo's slavish implementation of the classic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue trope. While TL2's story was sort of hand-wavy, it doesn't sink to the level of D3's narrative fail.
And why is "adult minions" listed as a plus for D3? I like my ferret far more than I ever liked my Paladin, but more importantly my ferret is a viable combat partner without a thousand dollars of gear festooning it. No comparision between the two games minions should ever end up with D3 ahead.
I think
Barb > Berserker
DH > outlander
Wizard > embermage
WD & Monk > Engineer
I think the three classes with real counterparts are just more enjoyable in D3.