A Word on Dungeon Play

Radakill · October 2012

Fail.

Not just partial fail, this is world class fook up fail on global level. I literally cant remember a single MMO in history that has screwed up a dungeon instance like ArenaNet.

So far, dungeons have been my worst experience when playing GW2.

Just to name a few..

1. No cross server group finder.

2. The absence of taunt tanking often means one or two shot kills by mobs thats are so far OP to the players, you spend the majority of time resurrecting, repairing and running back to the fight only to find yourself on an endless cycle of the same thing, just repeat.

3. No real thrill to adventuring here. I know Ive heard players complain about boredom in the open areas, so I was hoping to find a change of pace in the instances. Didnt happen. Even with a more balanced system of play, instance adventuring here would still seem repetitious and dull.

I cant even list all the negatives, I would be here all night and would run out of text space so, its easier to just name a few good things about dungeon play in GW2...

1. No monthly sub

....That’s pretty much it.

pmcubed · October 2012

your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

kaiser3282 · October 2012

So you can't learn to adjust to group play without relying on a tank to taunt and stop you from getting hit.... and thats a failure on their part?

Radakill · October 2012

Originally posted by pmcubed
your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

Radakill · October 2012

Originally posted by kaiser3282
So you can't learn to adjust to group play without relying on a tank to taunt and stop you from getting hit.... and thats a failure on their part?

There are MANY failures on thier part, yes.

When entire groups are getting wiped repeatedly, yes its a failure on their part.

When the majority of players are experiencing the same issue, yes its a failure on their part.

When you read post after post of customers complaining about similar issues, yes its a failure on their part.

When even the heavy armor classes are getting their butts handed to them, yeah its a failure on their part. When the game was DEVELOPED this way intentionally, yes its a failure on their part.

pmcubed · October 2012

Originally posted by Radakill
Originally posted by pmcubed
your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

probably. most pick up groups don't do well because everyone brings their open world PvE specs into dungeons. You simply won't make it through a dungeon without a ton of deaths that way.

People need toughness and vitality. They also need condition and stun breaks.

Think of it like this: In WoW (I assume you've played it), dungeons require sufficient gear. In GW2, gear doesnt matter so much as the proper trait make-up and utility usage. Group composition doesn't matter so much.

I will agree with you, when I first played dungeons, it was a rez-fest. But, I was specced pure glass with 10k HP @ lvl 80.

Xasapis · October 2012

Dungeons unfortunately are not designed with the levels you are allowed to enter in mind, for good or worse. This is true for both story and explorable modes. In some cases certain explorable paths are easier than the story mode.

Here are some things that you need to keep in mind:

Glass cannon builds won't cut it in GW2 dungeons. Since there is no single tank, all party members need to be tanks as much as possible. Whether it's up to toughness or other means, that's up to the individual class.
Pure damage dealing is the attribute least required. After every member being as tankish as possible, look for utility synergies. Healing, crowd control, etc. builds will fare better in there.
You are undergeared. You'll have to live with it. Dungeons seem to be made with all the above in mind plus at least rare gear for a more relaxed gameplay.

Having said all the above:

You'll still get one shotted and downed by bosses and trash mobs (which are sometimes harder than the actual bosses). It is just won't be as frustrating as the first time you run the dungeons.
The fights are balanced with corpserezzing in mind, so they will be unfair in a sense, since you're allowed to run back after dying.
Strategic play will make things smoother, but the random ultrahits mean that you will never be able to guarantee a flawless skillful execution, just faster/shorter runs.

The big problem is that dungeons play quite differently than world roaming and dynamic events or even PvP. I suppose they are one way to appreciate the trinity, for those who condemned it without thinking.

In GW2 dungeons you're a bit of everything and master of nothing and that's something you need to live with.

saurus123 · October 2012

Originally posted by Radakill
Originally posted by pmcubed
your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

say for yourself

i died maybe 5 times in dungeons total and that was becouse everyone else wiped

cuz some "players" dont understant that standing in one place and smashing keys isnt the way to play it

its not WoW where all you need is tank and spank everything

if you dont want to die you need some sort of "skill" not better gear that will absorb every damage is thrown at you

you need to know your class, use different utilities and traits

and ofc the most important, you need to DODGE!!!

i saw many players like you in dungeons that couldnt kill a first group of 3 mobs so that make this game fail?

no its the players that cant adapt, becouse of years of brainless, skill-less gameplay that past few years MMO offered

korent1991 · October 2012

Originally posted by Radakill
Originally posted by pmcubed
your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

well, it means your group sucks every time you go into a dungeon...

when I'm in EXP CM with my guild group we rarely die, when I'm in CoE we die a lot but they're kinda "fixing" that dung , we died alot in exp AC on 1 particular boss/event (where you gotta destroy the burrows) but that was only untill we figgured out WHAT we gotta do and HOW to do it in order to get things done the right way.

So the fact that you're dying a lot is that either your group is setted up poorly or you don't know what exactly to do or someone in your group doesn't know what to do.

The fact that there's no "taunt" makes it challenging and sets the game away from the ordinary "tank and spank" bs. Use dodge, it's an important mechanic.

Xasapis · October 2012

Proper use of the invulnerability (aka dodge) skill helps, but not as much as a proper dungeon build and some understanding of the limitations of the classes that participate in the run.

Radakill · October 2012

Originally posted by pmcubed
Originally posted by Radakill
Originally posted by pmcubed
your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

probably. most pick up groups don't do well because everyone brings their open world PvE specs into dungeons. You simply won't make it through a dungeon without a ton of deaths that way.

People need toughness and vitality. They also need condition and stun breaks.

Think of it like this: In WoW (I assume you've played it), dungeons require sufficient gear. In GW2, gear doesnt matter so much as the proper trait make-up and utility usage. Group composition doesn't matter so much.

I will agree with you, when I first played dungeons, it was a rez-fest. But, I was specced pure glass with 10k HP @ lvl 80.

A few problems with this:

1. If you are correct and players are required to spec fully on health and armor just to make it through an instance, then why isnt there an option of 'instance only armor' to swap into for instance play? Or are you suggesting that players should now be expected to carry instance armor with them in their limited inventory space?

2. Now people will also have to respec their traits as well before an instance. When you design a game correctly, you dont put all this on the shoulders of the players, its like going through a tedious checklist everytime you enter or exit a dungeon. Terrible developement.

3. Condition and stun breaks isnt always the whole problem. Many instances simply overwealm a group with too many OP mobs. The other problems with conditons (and stuns) is, there is no immune time after you remove one. Take it off, it simply gets put right back on. Try to remove it again...ooops, gotta wait for that CD...

4. WOW dosnt require you to change all your gear just to run an instance or a raid. I have made a few adjustments to some gear in WoW based on the raid, however, your base armor you wear all the time. To even suggest you should have to completely spec in defense just to run an instance is an absurd and unrealistic expectation. WoW is an apples to oranges comparison anyway as it is very much a "holy trinity" type of game. GW2 is far from the classical 3 class types, although the insances are very much developed that way.

I very much doubt that a specific "instanc spec" was part of the development teams intentions anyway, the instances are simply out of balance for the untraditional style of play in GW2.

Radakill · October 2012

Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Radakill
Originally posted by pmcubed
your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

well, it means your group sucks every time you go into a dungeon...

when I'm in EXP CM with my guild group we rarely die, when I'm in CoE we die a lot but they're kinda "fixing" that dung , we died alot in exp AC on 1 particular boss/event (where you gotta destroy the burrows) but that was only untill we figgured out WHAT we gotta do and HOW to do it in order to get things done the right way.

So the fact that you're dying a lot is that either your group is setted up poorly or you don't know what exactly to do or someone in your group doesn't know what to do.

The fact that there's no "taunt" makes it challenging and sets the game away from the ordinary "tank and spank" bs. Use dodge, it's an important mechanic.

Uh huh...

BS.

Ive been in instances with these hot shot guys that think they know it all and have all the answers for dodging and condtiton removal... what a load of crap. The same guys get trashed when 10 OP mobs come out of a room and wax his ass all over the floor before he even has a chance to hit the dodge key. Even with dodge you only get to use it twice before it has to recharge, which usually isnt even near enough, the mobs will just keep comming.

In any case, dying and repopping is just 1 out of a plathora of reasons dungeons fail in GW2.

pmcubed · October 2012

Originally posted by Radakill
/cut

Instances aren't very well made in all honesty. Like a guy said earlier, some dungeon's are easier than others. I think Anet has some tweaking to do.

You don't necessarily have to go full toughness or vitality, but you need to be tankier than what you can get away with in normal PvE.

I know some instances, you come to a room with 6+ elite's and you basically have to wipe once or more to clear them. It is absurb, i know. Luckily I don't play anymore - it got way too boring :-D

Though, I'm sure Anet will fix it up a few months from now

Radakill · October 2012

Originally posted by Xasapis
Dungeons unfortunately are not designed with the levels you are allowed to enter in mind, for good or worse. This is true for both story and explorable modes. In some cases certain explorable paths are easier than the story mode.

Here are some things that you need to keep in mind:

Glass cannon builds won't cut it in GW2 dungeons. Since there is no single tank, all party members need to be tanks as much as possible. Whether it's up to toughness or other means, that's up to the individual class.

Pure damage dealing is the attribute least required. After every member being as tankish as possible, look for utility synergies. Healing, crowd control, etc. builds will fare better in there.

You are undergeared. You'll have to live with it. Dungeons seem to be made with all the above in mind plus at least rare gear for a more relaxed gameplay.

Having said all the above:

You'll still get one shotted and downed by bosses and trash mobs (which are sometimes harder than the actual bosses). It is just won't be as frustrating as the first time you run the dungeons.

The fights are balanced with corpserezzing in mind, so they will be unfair in a sense, since you're allowed to run back after dying.

Strategic play will make things smoother, but the random ultrahits mean that you will never be able to guarantee a flawless skillful execution, just faster/shorter runs.

The big problem is that dungeons play quite differently than world roaming and dynamic events or even PvP. I suppose they are one way to appreciate the trinity, for those who condemned it without thinking.

In GW2 dungeons you're a bit of everything and master of nothing and that's something you need to live with.

One other thing you forgot to mention in here is the use of AOE in dungeons. Its basically usless unless you want to see how fast 10 mobs can really drop you. Another reason this unconventional system of ArenaNets blows arse.

"The fights are balanced with corpserezzing in mind"

This is just pure development stupidity, you may think its great fun to run back and forth from rez points all night, I dont. Im not used to having to pick my ass up off the floor every 20 seconds because a dungeon is "designed that way". Not only is it a boring tedious rediculous nightmare, by the time you exit the instance your repair bill isnt worth what you get from the run.

Loke666 · October 2012

Originally posted by Radakill
Fail.

Not just partial fail, this is world class fook up fail on global level. I literally cant remember a single MMO in history that has screwed up a dungeon instance like ArenaNet.

So far, dungeons have been my worst experience when playing GW2.

Just to name a few..

1. No cross server group finder.

2. The absence of taunt tanking often means one or two shot kills by mobs thats are so far OP to the players, you spend the majority of time resurrecting, repairing and running back to the fight only to find yourself on an endless cycle of the same thing, just repeat.

3. No real thrill to adventuring here. I know Ive heard players complain about boredom in the open areas, so I was hoping to find a change of pace in the instances. Didnt happen. Even with a more balanced system of play, instance adventuring here would still seem repetitious and dull.

I cant even list all the negatives, I would be here all night and would run out of text space so, its easier to just name a few good things about dungeon play in GW2...

1. No monthly sub

....That’s pretty much it.

I also think that dungeons can use a little more work, mostly because some bosses are really hard while others are really easy and just stand still and wait to be killed. In other word I think that the AI of some bosses needs improvements.

1. Cross server dungeon finders are the worst thing I seen in any MMO. They totally screw up the server community feeling. I am all for dungeonfinders, but only for same server finders.

2. Dungeons are hard, or you will die a lot. Tanks makes any combat rather boring and predictable. Get better gear, train and try to work better with the group you are playing with.

3. Your feelings, dont agree with you but you have every right of thinking so of course.

But to me it sounds like you die a lot when you play them. They are made so they should be hard so either train so you will learn to play better or play the other parts of the games instead. MMOs needs some harder content, in most games it is raids but in GW2 it is explorable dungeons.

Pumuckl71 · October 2012

gosh ....the first week after release GW2 was the holy grail, praised by uncountable posts here.

Now it almost seems the other way around , lol . End of Sanity.

bunnyhopper · October 2012

Originally posted by Xasapis

The fights are balanced with corpserezzing in mind, so they will be unfair in a sense, since you're allowed to run back after dying.

If that is true, which is very possibly is. Then that really is a poor way to "balance" something.

Swanea · October 2012

Gosh, I thought the storymode dungeons were super too easy, and the explore modes were actually pretty hard.

Loke666 · October 2012

Originally posted by Pumuckl71
gosh ....the first week after release GW2 was the holy grail, praised by uncountable posts here.

Now it almost seems the other way around , lol . End of Sanity.

There were way more whining release week than now. Also, OP were talking about one aspect of the game, dungeons. Turning that into that the game is "the opposite of the holy grail" is really taking things out of content.

It is an excellent game, but it is not the holy grail of MMOs and never was. There is in fact no such thing as a holy grail historical or in MMOs).

Magnetia · October 2012

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Pumuckl71
gosh ....the first week after release GW2 was the holy grail, praised by uncountable posts here.

Now it almost seems the other way around , lol . End of Sanity.

There were way more whining release week than now. Also, OP were talking about one aspect of the game, dungeons. Turning that into that the game is "the opposite of the holy grail" is really taking things out of content.

It is an excellent game, but it is not the holy grail of MMOs and never was. There is in fact no such thing as a holy grail historical or in MMOs).

One day. Skyrim MMO.

Pumuckl71 · October 2012

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Pumuckl71
gosh ....the first week after release GW2 was the holy grail, praised by uncountable posts here.

Now it almost seems the other way around , lol . End of Sanity.

There were way more whining release week than now. Also, OP were talking about one aspect of the game, dungeons. Turning that into that the game is "the opposite of the holy grail" is really taking things out of content.

It is an excellent game, but it is not the holy grail of MMOs and never was. There is in fact no such thing as a holy grail historical or in MMOs).

cmon loke no need to nitpick words i know that there isnt such a thing as a holy grail mmo ..twas a metaphoric remark.

Radakill · October 2012

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Radakill
Fail.

Not just partial fail, this is world class fook up fail on global level. I literally cant remember a single MMO in history that has screwed up a dungeon instance like ArenaNet.

So far, dungeons have been my worst experience when playing GW2.

Just to name a few..

1. No cross server group finder.

2. The absence of taunt tanking often means one or two shot kills by mobs thats are so far OP to the players, you spend the majority of time resurrecting, repairing and running back to the fight only to find yourself on an endless cycle of the same thing, just repeat.

3. No real thrill to adventuring here. I know Ive heard players complain about boredom in the open areas, so I was hoping to find a change of pace in the instances. Didnt happen. Even with a more balanced system of play, instance adventuring here would still seem repetitious and dull.

I cant even list all the negatives, I would be here all night and would run out of text space so, its easier to just name a few good things about dungeon play in GW2...

1. No monthly sub

....That’s pretty much it.

I also think that dungeons can use a little more work, mostly because some bosses are really hard while others are really easy and just stand still and wait to be killed. In other word I think that the AI of some bosses needs improvements.

1. Cross server dungeon finders are the worst thing I seen in any MMO. They totally screw up the server community feeling. I am all for dungeonfinders, but only for same server finders.

2. Dungeons are hard, or you will die a lot. Tanks makes any combat rather boring and predictable. Get better gear, train and try to work better with the group you are playing with.

3. Your feelings, dont agree with you but you have every right of thinking so of course.

But to me it sounds like you die a lot when you play them. They are made so they should be hard so either train so you will learn to play better or play the other parts of the games instead. MMOs needs some harder content, in most games it is raids but in GW2 it is explorable dungeons.

Tanks makes any combat rather boring and predictable.

Not necessarily. It very much depends on the encounter, as tanks can only handle so much. There are many ways to make the "holy trinity" extremely challenging, using mechanics, special boss skills, adds etc. Healing, DPS and support roles can and usually do play a big part in controlling the situation, if everyone isnt working as a team and knows their rolls well, then the encounter can fall apart very quickly. Its anything but boring and predictable.

These dungeons are just pure chaos. As stated earlier, there are many encounters that leave ANY group with little to no chance of surviving. Thats not a challenge, its a poorly designed chaotic drudgery that just frustrates players.

You dont have to die a lot for dungeons to be entertaining and fun, with a development team that knows how to design them, groups will still have a chance to live through encounters and have a great time in the process.

Karelia · October 2012

because i m not a skilled and cool player.

because i dont play it right.

because i dont see the next gen thing.

because i have played gw2 dungeons.

i love TRINITY!

gw2 dungeons really suck.

wartyxwt · October 2012

I love the game and enjoy much of it, but dungeons are just crap. Not because of no tanks, I play only with close friends, often LAN party. We're all competent and rarely have much in the way of cock ups, but frankly the dungeons are just shit. Bland, uninspired and generally boring. Makes pre Cata Wailing Caverns look good.

I honestl think even if all untelegraphed 1shots were redone, everything balanced for the level given etc, you'd still be looking at a complete revamp to not be boring. I think they had good intentions with the storytelling but in it's current incarnation it doesn't work. Hell, take out the story from story mode (I know, I know, but..) you'd only have a 10minute dungeon.

AvatarBlade · October 2012

Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Xasapis

The fights are balanced with corpserezzing in mind, so they will be unfair in a sense, since you're allowed to run back after dying.

If that is true, which is very possibly is. Then that really is a poor way to "balance" something.

No they're not. With proper strategy and and gear/specs even the hardest bosses in explorables like Giganticus and Subject Alpha can be done without way point rezzing or at worse with minimal. I'd say consumable are also at least recommended in these fights, toughness food and the -10% dmg taken elixirs.

I agree that the rest of the PvE doesn't prepare you for explorable tho, at all.

Vesavius · October 2012

This game, as much as I have enjoyed it (and continue to do so) on a lot of levels, is ultimately steered by two things... the cash shop and E-Sports PvP.

To my mind the dungeons were adversely affected by the latter.

So much so that I will be pushing GW2 to the back burner for a good while when FFXIV launches in the hope that it can deliver me with a more satisfying group PvE experience.

Despite this though, I still have a lot of love for the game and all it's achieved, it's just that their chosen focuses make it not for me in the long run.

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