Originally posted by Thorbrand Average player should not ever be able to solo in a MMO unless they are grinding on lower lvl mobs. Part of why they are currently broken.
One of the many reasons why this group is hard to please when it comes to MMOs. There is a constant call for a world their character can live in, but built around arbitrary rules that humans normally do not - and in some cases cannot - live by.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
I think there should be a MMO where you can solo EVERYTHING(or partially). Though, should you get it at the same rate of people who group, I don't think so. Some benefit should be given to those who decide to group. Example: Group takes 1-2 days to get items, solo takes 4-6 days. Or even make it where if you want the BEST gear grouping is needed.
I'm not talking about having companions (npc or player)...but one character being able to solo 100% of everything. Now...hear me out...
Many MMOs, especially themeparks...they in a way...very much mislead you. You can spen levels 1 to 85 (as an example) being able to do EVERYTHING solo. Suddenly you hit max level...and the game had the bait...then it switched...suddenly there is very little content you can solo. You can only do raids if you are in a group, or if the raids become out of date (and that takes a while)...only very few (if any) classes are able to solo (when, while leveling, every class can solo everything).
MMOs are already on the path of becoming quick to play, cheap and more solo oriented. Log on, do raid/dungeon finder...play for 15-30 min and accomplish a lot. Not relying on spamming chat "lfg" "lfg"...15 minutes later... "lfg". And many MMOs are very quickly relying on the player WANTING to group, and not feeling FORCED to group. WoW went far down this path, but to do new raids...still need a group and (last I saw), new raids aren't part of the raid finder. SWTOR was on the way to this path, but found voice acting and adding to the story was much more expensive than adding raids that forced you to group.
But you can still group up while leveling in WoW and themeparks, doing dungeons and what not (that are still solable with certain classes)...if you want to...not if you are forced to.
You do understand what the basic concept of an MMO is compared to a single player?
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
Well it looks like a group kills it quicker with less hassle, and thus gets more xp. Doesn't sound too pointless to me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
Well it looks like a group kills it quicker with less hassle, and thus gets more xp. Doesn't sound too pointless to me.
thats not group content, thats single player content played in a group. not the same
anyways, on the the tread, unless they find it worth making an entirely solo game it will never happen. and if they do it will no longer be an mmorpg but a new genre
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
Well it looks like a group kills it quicker with less hassle, and thus gets more xp. Doesn't sound too pointless to me.
thats not group content, thats single player content played in a group. not the same
anyways, on the the tread, unless they find it worth making an entirely solo game it will never happen. and if they do it will no longer be an mmorpg but a new genre
Thats just a difference of opinion, not in reality or fact. Group content is content that is designed for groups yes, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of doing it slower/longer/more carefully/more thought as a solo player.
In EQ and WoW people solo dungeons they have outleveled, that is still group content that they have chosen to do solo. I don't see any difference between that and what is discussed here.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
Well it looks like a group kills it quicker with less hassle, and thus gets more xp. Doesn't sound too pointless to me.
thats not group content, thats single player content played in a group. not the same
anyways, on the the tread, unless they find it worth making an entirely solo game it will never happen. and if they do it will no longer be an mmorpg but a new genre
Thats just a difference of opinion, not in reality or fact. Group content is content that is designed for groups yes, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of doing it slower/longer/more carefully/more thought as a solo player.
In EQ and WoW people solo dungeons they have outleveled, that is still group content that they have chosen to do solo. I don't see any difference between that and what is discussed here.
The difference is that its all level based, just because you can go back and do 50 levels later doesnt make it solo content, the content was created with a group of level apropriate people to complete it.
most of the time when you outlevel content by a certain number of levels you gain nothing from doing it anyway
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
Well it looks like a group kills it quicker with less hassle, and thus gets more xp. Doesn't sound too pointless to me.
thats not group content, thats single player content played in a group. not the same
anyways, on the the tread, unless they find it worth making an entirely solo game it will never happen. and if they do it will no longer be an mmorpg but a new genre
Thats just a difference of opinion, not in reality or fact. Group content is content that is designed for groups yes, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of doing it slower/longer/more carefully/more thought as a solo player.
In EQ and WoW people solo dungeons they have outleveled, that is still group content that they have chosen to do solo. I don't see any difference between that and what is discussed here.
The difference is that its all level based, just because you can go back and do 50 levels later doesnt make it solo content, the content was created with a group of level apropriate people to complete it.
most of the time when you outlevel content by a certain number of levels you gain nothing from doing it anyway
Thats where we see the difference. There is no group or solo content, there is just content. Some is designed for a group of a particular level to handle but there is nothing stopping the enterprising solo from trying to tackle it.
You always gain loot and coin.
EQ's dungeons were designed that way, best for groups of a particular size and level and yet people crawled through them solo constantly. It was just content.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Thats where we see the difference. There is no group or solo content, there is just content. Some is designed for a group of a particular level to handle but there is nothing stopping the enterprising solo from trying to tackle it.
You always gain loot and coin.
EQ's dungeons were designed that way, best for groups of a particular size and level and yet people crawled through them solo constantly. It was just content.
This ^^^
In fact, it is quite popular to go back and solo dungeons (after you over-level and over-gear them) in WOW. There are tons of youtube video soloing this and that. And there are tons of people going back to solo old dungeons for mounts and stuff. I have done that myself.
It is actually quite fun. Sometimes (depending on the dungeon), it actually post a challenge.
Thats where we see the difference. There is no group or solo content, there is just content. Some is designed for a group of a particular level to handle but there is nothing stopping the enterprising solo from trying to tackle it.
You always gain loot and coin.
EQ's dungeons were designed that way, best for groups of a particular size and level and yet people crawled through them solo constantly. It was just content.
This ^^^
In fact, it is quite popular to go back and solo dungeons (after you over-level and over-gear them) in WOW. There are tons of youtube video soloing this and that. And there are tons of people going back to solo old dungeons for mounts and stuff. I have done that myself.
It is actually quite fun. Sometimes (depending on the dungeon), it actually post a challenge.
Now you come with that...
MC - waterlords rep, recipes (THE SCOPE NEVER DROPPED FOR ME until they made it 100%), legendarys
brd - reps, dark iron (FOR THE SCOPE THAT NEVER DROPPED FOR ME), bot
bwl - recipe for my only legendary
Strat, trolls, kara - mounts
Old Naxx - just for the wipes
Dire maul and others - shendralar
Sunwell - cosmetics, mount (or was it the 5man?)
and so on.
It is just sad that some people are against content like that arguing that is it is not worth creating if just 5% people see it when it is top tier...
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
"Gold" divided by "# members" is not equal. The proposed suggestion about doing both paths about equally efficient is though not forced grouping, that I agree with.
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
"Gold" divided by "# members" is not equal. The proposed suggestion about doing both paths about equally efficient is though not forced grouping, that I agree with.
Mobs don't have to drop 10k gold. Mob can drop "personal" gold for each member of the group like in Diablo 3, or drop individual loot that cannot be ninja like in WOW LFR .. problem solved. Just need a little bit of programming.
Originally posted by shawn01 When i started playing DAoC in 2001 i had always played single player games, and i wasn't really interested in playing with other people. I tried to solo for a while, and occasionally someone would invite me to a group, and i noticed i made much much more exp in the group. I could solo if i wanted, but if i grouped i would gain 5x more exp. I made a lot of friends playing that game, because it basically forced me to group.I havent made a single new friend in any recent WoW clone, simply because there is no reason to group. I don't do the gear grind thing, so normally i'll play a game like Rift or GW2 to max level a time or two then i move on.Being forced to group to level is imo a good thing. If you choose to solo it should be long hard road, but its an achievement. Making it easy to solo everything in modern games takes away that sense of achievement.
i will say one thing about mmos. there are different types. A game like wow has entire content (raids) that cannot be competed solo or even allow you to enter without another person as opposed to other f2p games that have a handful of large raid bosses. This scales down the imbalances especially gear per say if the mmo offers more custimization. Games get smarter and people like to play a game that has some advantage.
But then again how hard would it be to create another account group with yourself and do the raid- not very hard but wy g through all te trouble?
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
"Gold" divided by "# members" is not equal. The proposed suggestion about doing both paths about equally efficient is though not forced grouping, that I agree with.
So your idea of equal is that you get the same reward for 1/10 the effort? Please explain, im probably missing something here.
Mobs don't have to drop 10k gold. Mob can drop "personal" gold for each member of the group like in Diablo 3, or drop individual loot that cannot be ninja like in WOW LFR .. problem solved. Just need a little bit of programming.
Well, i started with gold SPECIFICALLY to avoid this kind of discussion, since gold or money in most cases is subject to some autosplit mechanic, ie if any group member picks up a gold pile/loots a mob, the gold is automaticly split amongst the group members.
As for the little bit of programming, these are the things, if pursued too far, that usually break the camels back.
Personal drops (like in D3) that are not part of a fixed pool (in d3 a elite has x drops per player, not just x drops, last i checked) usually lead, in a mmo environment, into forcing the players to invite "filler" into groups, and why wouldnt they, if they can kill a mob and gain 5k for 5 members, why not kill it with 10 and gain 10k, same with quest items.
Mobs don't have to drop 10k gold. Mob can drop "personal" gold for each member of the group like in Diablo 3, or drop individual loot that cannot be ninja like in WOW LFR .. problem solved. Just need a little bit of programming.
Well, i started with gold SPECIFICALLY to avoid this kind of discussion, since gold or money in most cases is subject to some autosplit mechanic, ie if any group member picks up a gold pile/loots a mob, the gold is automaticly split amongst the group members.
As for the little bit of programming, these are the things, if pursued too far, that usually break the camels back.
Personal drops (like in D3) that are not part of a fixed pool (in d3 a elite has x drops per player, not just x drops, last i checked) usually lead, in a mmo environment, into forcing the players to invite "filler" into groups, and why wouldnt they, if they can kill a mob and gain 5k for 5 members, why not kill it with 10 and gain 10k, same with quest items.
Just saying.
Flame on!
Actually why would they? Invite a filler does not help me. It does not increase my gold drop (nor my loot drop). It won't decrease it either .. but that is not a reason to invite anyone.
The only reason to invite anyone is so that you can kill faster, or more efficiently. In that case, i wouldn't want to invite any less gear players since they will just slow me down (note that mob health scales with number of players).
So nope .. wouldn't invite filler since that give me no more loot, but tougher mobs.
Mobs don't have to drop 10k gold. Mob can drop "personal" gold for each member of the group like in Diablo 3, or drop individual loot that cannot be ninja like in WOW LFR .. problem solved. Just need a little bit of programming.
Well, i started with gold SPECIFICALLY to avoid this kind of discussion, since gold or money in most cases is subject to some autosplit mechanic, ie if any group member picks up a gold pile/loots a mob, the gold is automaticly split amongst the group members.
As for the little bit of programming, these are the things, if pursued too far, that usually break the camels back.
Personal drops (like in D3) that are not part of a fixed pool (in d3 a elite has x drops per player, not just x drops, last i checked) usually lead, in a mmo environment, into forcing the players to invite "filler" into groups, and why wouldnt they, if they can kill a mob and gain 5k for 5 members, why not kill it with 10 and gain 10k, same with quest items.
Just saying.
Flame on!
Actually why would they? Invite a filler does not help me. It does not increase my gold drop (nor my loot drop). It won't decrease it either .. but that is not a reason to invite anyone.
The only reason to invite anyone is so that you can kill faster, or more efficiently. In that case, i wouldn't want to invite any less gear players since they will just slow me down (note that mob health scales with number of players).
So nope .. wouldn't invite filler since that give me no more loot, but tougher mobs.
Filler can be your box, filler can be a lowbie that splits with you or gives you the money in exchange for the free exp.
Remember that we are talking mmos, not d3, it was just a example of a loot system, in a soloable mmo people are already motivated to box for support and stuff, a situation where it is too much beneficial to have afk players (or boxes) in a group just for the rewards does not help, because we arrive at the fixed group size and/or bop problem from the other side, players will refuse to duo or trio without a full group of fillers, just for efficiency, or the drops become bop and gold looses its functions, very much like in wow, a resource just for cosmetic items.
Noone is arguing here that soloable mmos are easy to do and that there are no pitfalls and problems, heck we probably arrived at the current solo or raid system because the devs wanted to fix most of the problems once and for all, throwing for some of us the baby out with the water.
Dude...what does the second M in MMORPG stand for? Oh yeah, that's right, MULTIPLAYER.
That's why you can't solo everything. You're not supposed to.
I think you mean "cooperative", which is technically not in mmorpg
Unfortunately for you, killing all the raids solo in wow and then engage one member of the other faction or just bid on a item in the ah is still multiplayer.
Mobs don't have to drop 10k gold. Mob can drop "personal" gold for each member of the group like in Diablo 3, or drop individual loot that cannot be ninja like in WOW LFR .. problem solved. Just need a little bit of programming.
Well, i started with gold SPECIFICALLY to avoid this kind of discussion, since gold or money in most cases is subject to some autosplit mechanic, ie if any group member picks up a gold pile/loots a mob, the gold is automaticly split amongst the group members.
As for the little bit of programming, these are the things, if pursued too far, that usually break the camels back.
Personal drops (like in D3) that are not part of a fixed pool (in d3 a elite has x drops per player, not just x drops, last i checked) usually lead, in a mmo environment, into forcing the players to invite "filler" into groups, and why wouldnt they, if they can kill a mob and gain 5k for 5 members, why not kill it with 10 and gain 10k, same with quest items.
Just saying.
Flame on!
Actually why would they? Invite a filler does not help me. It does not increase my gold drop (nor my loot drop). It won't decrease it either .. but that is not a reason to invite anyone.
The only reason to invite anyone is so that you can kill faster, or more efficiently. In that case, i wouldn't want to invite any less gear players since they will just slow me down (note that mob health scales with number of players).
So nope .. wouldn't invite filler since that give me no more loot, but tougher mobs.
Filler can be your box, filler can be a lowbie that splits with you or gives you the money in exchange for the free exp.
Remember that we are talking mmos, not d3, it was just a example of a loot system, in a soloable mmo people are already motivated to box for support and stuff, a situation where it is too much beneficial to have afk players (or boxes) in a group just for the rewards does not help, because we arrive at the fixed group size and/or bop problem from the other side, players will refuse to duo or trio without a full group of fillers, just for efficiency, or the drops become bop and gold looses its functions, very much like in wow, a resource just for cosmetic items.
Noone is arguing here that soloable mmos are easy to do and that there are no pitfalls and problems, heck we probably arrived at the current solo or raid system because the devs wanted to fix most of the problems once and for all, throwing for some of us the baby out with the water.
Flame on!
And D3 loot system is similar to that in the WOW LFR system ... that you roll your individual loot. So the individual loot system does apply to MMOs.
But the original point is that this kind of loot system do away with the issue of "inviting others means i got less". And it certainly works because no longer you are getting less.
The issue about filler is a bit of a red herring ANYWAY because most of the groupings (in WOW and many other MMOs) are done automatically anyway.
Dude...what does the second M in MMORPG stand for? Oh yeah, that's right, MULTIPLAYER.
That's why you can't solo everything. You're not supposed to.
I think you mean "cooperative", which is technically not in mmorpg
Unfortunately for you, killing all the raids solo in wow and then engage one member of the other faction or just bid on a item in the ah is still multiplayer.
Flame on!
Banaghran is absolutely right. There are many ways of "multiplayer" than grouping in combat. I can solo combat, then trade, or chat, or duel, or even just show off my gear. I can't show off gear in a single player game, can i?
I think you mean "cooperative", which is technically not in mmorpg
Unfortunately for you, killing all the raids solo in wow and then engage one member of the other faction or just bid on a item in the ah is still multiplayer.
Flame on!
If I gave a damn anymore I would rant about the stupidity of calling bidding on an item a multiplayer action, but I really don't. Human stupidity seems to have reached an all time high so I won't even bother as it probably wouldn't be understood anyway. Needless to say, if you ever gain the technical expertise, never write a multiplayer game, it'll be the biggest flop in history.
Comments
One of the many reasons why this group is hard to please when it comes to MMOs. There is a constant call for a world their character can live in, but built around arbitrary rules that humans normally do not - and in some cases cannot - live by.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And what is not equal?
The mob has 10k gold, if you kill it solo, you get 10k, if you kill it in a group of 10, you get 1k, but you can kill him 10 times, with less hassle (groupmates tank,heal,buff, rez, regenerate mana).
Flame on!
I think there should be a MMO where you can solo EVERYTHING(or partially). Though, should you get it at the same rate of people who group, I don't think so. Some benefit should be given to those who decide to group. Example: Group takes 1-2 days to get items, solo takes 4-6 days. Or even make it where if you want the BEST gear grouping is needed.
You do understand what the basic concept of an MMO is compared to a single player?
becaues in that design grouping is pointless when you can do it by yourself, and if the rewards are the same the mob must be the same toughness so fighting it with a group is overkill if you can do it on your own. which really isnt fun
Well it looks like a group kills it quicker with less hassle, and thus gets more xp. Doesn't sound too pointless to me.
thats not group content, thats single player content played in a group. not the same
anyways, on the the tread, unless they find it worth making an entirely solo game it will never happen. and if they do it will no longer be an mmorpg but a new genre
Thats just a difference of opinion, not in reality or fact. Group content is content that is designed for groups yes, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of doing it slower/longer/more carefully/more thought as a solo player.
In EQ and WoW people solo dungeons they have outleveled, that is still group content that they have chosen to do solo. I don't see any difference between that and what is discussed here.
The difference is that its all level based, just because you can go back and do 50 levels later doesnt make it solo content, the content was created with a group of level apropriate people to complete it.
most of the time when you outlevel content by a certain number of levels you gain nothing from doing it anyway
Thats where we see the difference. There is no group or solo content, there is just content. Some is designed for a group of a particular level to handle but there is nothing stopping the enterprising solo from trying to tackle it.
You always gain loot and coin.
EQ's dungeons were designed that way, best for groups of a particular size and level and yet people crawled through them solo constantly. It was just content.
This ^^^
In fact, it is quite popular to go back and solo dungeons (after you over-level and over-gear them) in WOW. There are tons of youtube video soloing this and that. And there are tons of people going back to solo old dungeons for mounts and stuff. I have done that myself.
It is actually quite fun. Sometimes (depending on the dungeon), it actually post a challenge.
Now you come with that...
MC - waterlords rep, recipes (THE SCOPE NEVER DROPPED FOR ME until they made it 100%), legendarys
brd - reps, dark iron (FOR THE SCOPE THAT NEVER DROPPED FOR ME), bot
bwl - recipe for my only legendary
Strat, trolls, kara - mounts
Old Naxx - just for the wipes
Dire maul and others - shendralar
Sunwell - cosmetics, mount (or was it the 5man?)
and so on.
It is just sad that some people are against content like that arguing that is it is not worth creating if just 5% people see it when it is top tier...
Flame on!
"Gold" divided by "# members" is not equal. The proposed suggestion about doing both paths about equally efficient is though not forced grouping, that I agree with.
Mobs don't have to drop 10k gold. Mob can drop "personal" gold for each member of the group like in Diablo 3, or drop individual loot that cannot be ninja like in WOW LFR .. problem solved. Just need a little bit of programming.
BAM!!!
i will say one thing about mmos. there are different types. A game like wow has entire content (raids) that cannot be competed solo or even allow you to enter without another person as opposed to other f2p games that have a handful of large raid bosses. This scales down the imbalances especially gear per say if the mmo offers more custimization. Games get smarter and people like to play a game that has some advantage.
But then again how hard would it be to create another account group with yourself and do the raid- not very hard but wy g through all te trouble?
So your idea of equal is that you get the same reward for 1/10 the effort? Please explain, im probably missing something here.
Flame on!
Well, i started with gold SPECIFICALLY to avoid this kind of discussion, since gold or money in most cases is subject to some autosplit mechanic, ie if any group member picks up a gold pile/loots a mob, the gold is automaticly split amongst the group members.
As for the little bit of programming, these are the things, if pursued too far, that usually break the camels back.
Personal drops (like in D3) that are not part of a fixed pool (in d3 a elite has x drops per player, not just x drops, last i checked) usually lead, in a mmo environment, into forcing the players to invite "filler" into groups, and why wouldnt they, if they can kill a mob and gain 5k for 5 members, why not kill it with 10 and gain 10k, same with quest items.
Just saying.
Flame on!
Actually why would they? Invite a filler does not help me. It does not increase my gold drop (nor my loot drop). It won't decrease it either .. but that is not a reason to invite anyone.
The only reason to invite anyone is so that you can kill faster, or more efficiently. In that case, i wouldn't want to invite any less gear players since they will just slow me down (note that mob health scales with number of players).
So nope .. wouldn't invite filler since that give me no more loot, but tougher mobs.
Filler can be your box, filler can be a lowbie that splits with you or gives you the money in exchange for the free exp.
Remember that we are talking mmos, not d3, it was just a example of a loot system, in a soloable mmo people are already motivated to box for support and stuff, a situation where it is too much beneficial to have afk players (or boxes) in a group just for the rewards does not help, because we arrive at the fixed group size and/or bop problem from the other side, players will refuse to duo or trio without a full group of fillers, just for efficiency, or the drops become bop and gold looses its functions, very much like in wow, a resource just for cosmetic items.
Noone is arguing here that soloable mmos are easy to do and that there are no pitfalls and problems, heck we probably arrived at the current solo or raid system because the devs wanted to fix most of the problems once and for all, throwing for some of us the baby out with the water.
Flame on!
Dude...what does the second M in MMORPG stand for? Oh yeah, that's right, MULTIPLAYER.
That's why you can't solo everything. You're not supposed to.
Where's the any key?
I think you mean "cooperative", which is technically not in mmorpg
Unfortunately for you, killing all the raids solo in wow and then engage one member of the other faction or just bid on a item in the ah is still multiplayer.
Flame on!
And D3 loot system is similar to that in the WOW LFR system ... that you roll your individual loot. So the individual loot system does apply to MMOs.
But the original point is that this kind of loot system do away with the issue of "inviting others means i got less". And it certainly works because no longer you are getting less.
The issue about filler is a bit of a red herring ANYWAY because most of the groupings (in WOW and many other MMOs) are done automatically anyway.
Banaghran is absolutely right. There are many ways of "multiplayer" than grouping in combat. I can solo combat, then trade, or chat, or duel, or even just show off my gear. I can't show off gear in a single player game, can i?
If I gave a damn anymore I would rant about the stupidity of calling bidding on an item a multiplayer action, but I really don't. Human stupidity seems to have reached an all time high so I won't even bother as it probably wouldn't be understood anyway. Needless to say, if you ever gain the technical expertise, never write a multiplayer game, it'll be the biggest flop in history.