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Themepark MMO without Level: how often is this done, and why isnt this done more often?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
Levels, part of older school themepark MMO model like Everquest, in which the genre was new to many people, so people really didnt know what to expect out of a MMO.
But in theory, over time, MMO gamers begun to understand the reality of MMO game play, and begun to see what Levels really are. Which is a useless time sink
This I believe started after WoW, the most popular western MMO in the world, released its first Expansion (Burning Crusade), which reminded many old vet WoW players, just how unfun it is to be weakened, and content locked, simply because of a few levels was added making your former max level character into a low level character again.
Ever sense, I have notice a large number of complaints during the launch of post WoW(TBC) MMO, in which the community tend to complain about the level grind, and how boring or slow the level grind is.
take note of games like AoC when it released. The major complaint was how after the starter area the only way to level was by mob grinding. (but in reality, isnt this the same method of leveling in older themepark mmo like Everquest? constant mob grinding) So whats the problem with that now days unless the mindset has also changed?
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Theory is simple really. More people are waking up to the truth, that Levels in themepark MMO are useless and only acts as an artificial content lock.
Instead of gaining the Key to a dungeon door to unlock the dungeon, themepark MMO make you level to unlock the dungeon. the Dungeon's Locked Door and Levels basically do the same role. locks players from content. from the fun.
Its time to move away from this kind of design.
But how many themepark MMO out there have moved away from Levels?
and just why isnt this done more often?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Character level is a arbitrary number. You still need to progress in some way, whether it's % skill based or just acquiring skills. TSW very much so has the soul of a "level" system with it's EXP bar; Ultima Online had player designated sayings and in game titles: "Lord Name, Grand Master of". In addition there were "I'm a 6x GM" to designate their level up power when talking to others of how strong you were.
Ultimately having or not having numbers won't matter if it's a themepark. You'll still have levels of power, content you can't do until you're at that plateu (no matter how it's phrased) and the same types of end game. Only if the game is a Sandbox in spirit could it really have some semblance of being relevent as you actively change the world around you regardless of your strength.
That or the Themepark has it so you always have 100 HP and the same strength with no items that grant extra power and everything is completely relevent and difficult.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I play GW2 to level 80 on my Guardian, than started playing on my alts. I know exactly how to play.
in Rift, the expansion added 10 new levels. I had 4 max level characters from each calling. I dont need 10 new levels to learn how to play a game I already know how to play...
that old argument is moot. Levels arent needed to learn how to play a game. Especially when Endgame content isnt even taught to player nor experienced during the leveling process.
example, in Vanilla WoW, endgame consisted of Raiding for PvE and Old AV for PvP. Nether of which is done during the leveling process. So how would I learn the skills needed for those while leveling?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Is levels the only way to see progression?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I have to disagree that TSW's leveling system has anything to do with the XP bar. all the XP bar can get you is different skills. What the progression we see is players being able to do more than play with themselves in a fight. When our EXP bar gets to full we dont suddenly get stronger. We have to allocate things to the nessessary area, usually we dont have enough to allocate so we have to wait more. And before you say our SP is our level, if you read what each level of those SP Notches is, it describes what it adds.
As further proof that your lvl being useless is by the fact that no one asks what your SP level is in any fight. Not even in normal. Quality level can vary however quality level has little to do with your XP.
Wanna know what the elitest ask for in TSW. Experiance, thats it. When you see people asking for 4.1k Attack rateing most of them haven't a clue what they are doing. Those who i have actually had good times with had the experiance nessessary to fight.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Well no, we also have progessively proportionally larger shoulder pads. Also if your weapon doesn't glow to the point of blinding you whilst playing it just ain't going to cut it.
How exactly do I know I've won the game and can move to the forums to tell everyone how ez mode it is if I don't have a number to tell me so?
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I think TSW has a good mix of progression, without using the usual levels. I guess it's more that it isn't enough to have the right level of gear, but you also have to have the right mix of abilities.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I've been toying around with the ideal for a skill based non-level MMO patterened off of Asheron's Call, GW2, WoW, TSW & SWG for a few months now.
The premise is it would have the combat style of GW2 (hybrid tab target with active dodge) The Production quality and Auction House/Mail Box and stats and UI of WoW, the skill wheel of TSW (but include many many more schools) the Housing of SWG and the majority of the game based on Asheron's Call open seemless world and experience based advancement and loot system.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
While levels as progression aren't mandatory, they've been pretty well accepted in RPG's. You can go crack open an old AD&D book and see experience tables for each class. Again, it's not the only, nor might it be the best way of character progression, but it's tried and true.
So levels having anything to do with Everquest and being "new" to people is a bizarre statement considering levels in RPG's were very expected by the time EQ came out.
The problem with mob grinding is when it occurs in a themepark setting with a structured world. When you're limited to a certain handful of mobs or small area of a zone due to level restriction with a limited ability set due to level, it is very tedious and boring. That was AoC's problem. If you're going to make someone grind, open up the world to them and let them explore and grind. If not, you need well done quest hubs like WoW.
WoW has spoiled themepark MMOers with varied zones and buttery smooth transitions. You level with quests to spare.
Also, levels while typically used to lock content, but a game can easily be made to include levels and free form content availability.
Levels to represent experience is a good system for tabletop RPG'S but for MMORPG's it's terrible. In a MMORPG experience can be represented by the players mastery of the various game mechanics. A FPS is a good example, in a FPS you don't have a level to represent your experience and determining how powerful you are, imagine jumping into a match and getting your ass kicked by high level players just because their number is higher.
All themeparks eventually do away with levels.
Most player hours are spent at endgame. (<-- a guess)
The levels are only the appetiser not the main game.
No matter what you do, whether it be by levels, gear or some other arbitrary stat, you'll always need to have a warming up before you get to the actual game. A lapse of time where you progressively acquire a skillset and learn to master those skills.
Granted, most games don't force you to use most of your skills till you actually get to the endgame, but that's a matter of poor design.
As far as expansions go, introducing a new level cap is just allowing players who've started playing after the exp-pack, to be on an equal level. This could obviously be achieved by just allowing them to gear up to the current standard (a typical example is the justice point mechanic in WoW), but you'd be back to the whole "mastering new skills" deal, for which the levelling proces does serve a purpose.
In the traditional MMOs (not like the 5-button MMOs released more recently) it would allienate newcomers if you'd just hand them over 30 odd skills and told them "here's what you can do, now go use it in this here raid/dungeon/pvp situation".
Edit: just read the OP's post on the top of page 2 where he states he doesn't need levelling to learn to play the game. Like i stated before, if the game has a very flat learning curve, i can see why you'd argue against the whole levelling proces, but that's more a matter of game design and accessibility, rather than excluding the need for a period where you can get acquainted with the various skills your toon has.
You do realize SWG was a skill based MMO when it was first released and they didn't have lvls? The only reason they added lvls was because one SOE was stupid and WoW was doing so well.
IMO it seems like the OP was saying WoW started everything. There were MMOs before WOW. Im sure I miss understood it but anyways I think themeparks will always have lvls I think that just gives it more of a progession, I think themeparks and lvls go hand and hand, unless you get like the hybrid type themeparks that go away from your tradition themeparks I.E. TSW.
You guys really don't realize how arrogant and insulting you come across as when you say thing like this?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That endgame is simply trading off character level for gear level, alternate advancement or some other leveling system. The levels are still there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre