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The failure of EverQuest 2 really saddens me the most.
tixylix
Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
I'm 26 and at the time I was like 18 when EverQuest 2 came out. I left school, had my first love and was discovering the world for the first time on my own. So this MMO really resonates with me more than any other. Sadly relationships end and you cannot play old games or view/listen to any sort of media without being reminded. Maybe I'm bitter but I always like to leave that stuff in the past, however that had no impact on why I don't like EverQuest 2 as I had major problems with it since the start.
What I really loved about the game was how immersive the starting point of the game was without ruining the feeling of an MMO like say AoC or any other modern MMO did. I loved out all the voice overs were done in game with dialogue options and not feeling the need to pull you in some stupid cutscene. It was so amazing and breath taking to see cities like Freeport and Qeynos done back then, this was even before WoW, though they probably hit beta at the same time. Every MMO before WoW was so different from the last, they were all so unique to each other that I loved them all for different reasons. I'm not blaming WoW for anything, I loved that game back in late 2004 and 2005 before Blizzard ruined it later on. However we lived in a time where every MMO was unique, developers weren't trying to appeal to the masses.
I loved the atmosphere EverQuest 2 brought and I loved the music, my god it was so amaing. It just drew me in because at the time Quests were not all that common in MMOs and EverQuest 2 had some unique quests, even more so than WoW for their day, I remember doing some really fun puzzles back then, it wasn't just killing 10 rats in EverQuest 2 like WoW was. However you couldn't level all the way through on quests in EverQuest 2 on your own, you had to group. In fact past like level 13 you had to group for pretty much everything and I loved it, I loved it in beta because there were always people on. You'd be sitting down in CL or Antonica with your group, resting for a few mins and chatting, it was so social. These are such small mechanics, that developers now seem to think are annoying and "streamline" them. However SWG had a lot of these small social mechanics that had a huge impact on the game and a negative impact when SOE kept removing them one by one each patch.
Sadly however after CL and Antonica the rest of the zones weren't good, it was like they rushed them to release in typical SOE fashion. The previous ones were so perfectly done from The IoR to the two cities and the quests in and around them to CL and Antonica and then suddenly it went to shit. Every single person I knew quit around level 20-30 when TS and Nek hit, though Nek wasn't too bad, TS was the most bland zone ever!
The major problem though was again in typical SOE fashion, they released far too early, people aren't as forgiving as they're when they don't have to pay for a beta. So what happened is everyone quit really fast and we were left with a beta sized population spread out over like 30 or 40 servers, it was crazy how many they had. What I don't get is why there were that many as in beta there was one server and they just kept on cloning zones over and over... why didn't they do this for the released? So we were left to play on empty servers which sucked and so more people quit including myself because it was no fun alone.
Sadly SOE never understond this and they decided to dumb the game down, make it easier for solo players, instead of bringing the community together. Now the game is basically WoW, everything I see in EQ2 just comes from WoW. People claim it doesn't and EQ2 is the original one or whatever....... don't insult EQ2, it used to be a much better game and a different one. All SOE have done is added in a load of generic kill 10 rats quests now which you can easily solo 5-10 mobs on your own, put quest markets over everyones heads and even the UI just mimics WoW now.
I so loved EQ2 back in the day, I had so many fond memories of the beta before SOE rushed it to launch and killed it. EQ2 was my first MMO love if you'd put it as cheesy as that and SOE just butchered it. They have a history of that........
I played EverQuest back in like 1999-2001, I was very young like 13 or whatever and it was my first MMO, I tried UO but I cannot count the little time I put into it as my first. I loved EverQuest and that was why I was so excited for EQ2, however SOE left me bitter with the expansions they seemed to churn out and ruin the game. PoP and Luclin is when I quit, they just took the game in some fast travel, instanced direction I hated.
I played Planetside and SWG and loved them both but again SOE ruined them, Planetside had CC and BFRs, then dropped support. SWG had stupid constant attention on fixing Jedi, JTLS which ruined travel and killed the social part of it, the CU and the NGE.
When I think about it SOE have made all my fave MMOs but WoW and EVE and they've ruined them all. Blizzard ruined WoW for me by turning it into some fast travel MMO, killing the world and now PVP only exists in battlegrounds. EVE I just got bored of, however CCP are the only company who can manage their MMO, they seem to understand what their game is all about and don't want to try and dumb it down for anyone, I respect that.
I'm just so bitter though over what happened to EQ2 and I'm bitter over why SOE never seems to learn, they're even driving Planetside 2 into the ground as I speak. I really cannot see Planetside 2 lasting the year, all my friends have quit and the servers where I have characters on are always low, there are never any big battles. Whenever I view the forums, the same problems of a non existant meta game, poor base design, boring weapons, no tutorial, poor UI etc etc. keep coming up!
SOE love to innovate in the genre, they love to make good MMOs, even the failed UO tried something new, sadly SOEs post release support sucked again. The weird thing about SOE is their pre release content is amazing, however after release the content seems to suffer, it suddenly feels like it was made by 10 year olds. It really feels as if SOE move all their developers but like 2 people on and they struggle to make content so they copy and paste a lot of art work in the game and try to pass it off as new content.
I'm still so bitter over what happened to EQ2, I'd love a classic server to experience how it was like in 2004 again. I was surprised going back to WoW Vanilla how much harder the starter areas were, you could actually die back then, where it is impossible in MMOs today when it comes to PVE. The IoR boat ride really made me think how this was the start of a new immersive MMO, then SOE did nothing with it, even removed it and we saw nothing of that quality in the rest of the game lol.
Bah I hate you SOE lol.
Edit: Though I have to say the most amazing moments were always listening to the in game music like IoR or Qeynos and just starting playing at 6pm, ignoring my G/Fs calls, pretending I was asleep and then playing right until 6am lol. I'd fall asleep, wake up around 4pm, have something to eat, wash and whatever and do it all over again. Just amazing grouping memories in that beta, I miss armour quests, I miss The Fallen gate and I miss all those voice overs and quests in the cities which seem to have gone in the current version. I know this was after launch but those FrogLok quests as well were amazing, they were puzzles and summed up the amazing depth of EQ2s quests compared to other MMOs... sadly SOE ruined it.
Edit: I'm also pissed off SOE dumbed down crafting in EQ2, it sucks now......
Comments
I finally got into EQ2 a couple years ago and I thought it was probably the deepest MMO on the market. Lots of small group content and tons of character customization. The fact that there's a bazillion classes doesn't hurt either.
But between the funky graphics engine and the feeling that some gameplay aspects were never polished left me with the feeling that SOE started the game with one overall concept in mind and did(OK, tried) an about face when WoW started open beta testing.
That all said I'm looking forward to the next EQ. I'm interested to see what SOE defines as "sandbox" and if they can launch a game that feels complete this time.
The problem was with EQ2 they released too early, people quit as a result because they didn't want to pay for it or even play it. Those of us who were left were then spread out on 20-40 odd servers and so more people quit because the game was so empty and required grouping. Instead of merging servers SOE just dumbed the game down. In beta there was one server, why was there ever more than need for one visible server? Jusy clone each zone over and over like you did in beta.
It's also realising SOE have no clue, I can stay and try to fight my case, however they aren't listening, it is a lost cause, why stick around to try and fight a losing battle? If the game was mine, I'd know exactly where to take it, Dayz has proved people want a hard game and I'd make sure it stayed a hard game but while keeping the population together.
I liked Planetside 2 in beta, then SOE decided to release it way too early like all their games, it was nowhere near ready. Sadly it is hard sticking with a sinking ship, everything I've asked for has been declined by SOE...... it's hard to stick around for that treatment.
I don't get these companies because single people can make better games and stay true to their design. Sadly these big developers never can, CCP have but they seem to all be in agreement on the goals of their game, where SOE seems to be all about chasing a quick buck.
The class system was one of the weakest I thought, you had to play 20 odd levels to see how your class would play out and if you liked it. They then changed it to what it is today but all the classes in each archetype feel rather bland and samey. Where WoWs classes always felt so unique from each other...
I found a lot of people, including myself all suffered from not being able to find a class we liked, trying a few and then quitting. Where as WoW, every class was fun and unique, every person can find a class they instantly like too. I found the class system to be a weak spot but I loved so much more about the game it made up for it.
The Failure? A game thats been around since 2004, with healthy population, many expansions, one of the few games that actually lets you build your own house and decorate it.
Failure? Not by any sense of the world, financial, popularity... your definition is seriously screwed.
No. It wasn't the same as EQ, but it definately wasn't a failure. And I never really liked it that much, except the house building.
Wow classes were fun and unique? Well, glad I don't share that opinion. EQ2 has changed a lot, we all know that. And of course people will always bring in this and that about Borecraft. It seems that is the bandwagon these days.
Loved EQ2 at release and up until about Echos of Faydwer. It's pretty depressing to think about what they've turned the game into.
Hopefully EQ Next won't end up the same way.
I agree with the OP whole-heartedly -though "disappointment" is the word I'd replace with your use of the word "failure".
For what it is worth, I am more excited for EQNext than I have been for any other game in a long time. The fact that the Devs had a self-described epiphany with result being they have announed that the game will now be a sandbox really struck a hopeful note in me.
I actually haven't messed around with it, but one of the features of The Great MMO in My Head was a Dungeon Keeper type of class. SOE seems to have implemented something along these lines with the Dungeon Maker System -which speaks well of their ability to make a sandbox.
At least I'm hoping.
Another feature in TGMiMH is the idea of catering to both the Oldshool and Wow-ish playstyles. Seems like with a little support from the Devs as they build the game, Players could simply choose what kind of style they want to play. Sure, I can see some problems as the two types of Players interact, but I really feel its just a matter of logistics to get the two styles to share the same world together (or worse comes to worse, seperate servers).
I don't see how it's a failure it has 10+ very active servers.
http://www.soe.com/status/
But I agree, it had the potential to be so much more.
Anyway,
Played from release up to LU13 at which time they decided to change the mechanics of the game and the way the classes functioned. With this update, I now had to re-learn my class because they swung the nerf bat HARD.
I was only out for about 2 months but I was still a bit put off with the changes. Slowly but surely they fixed the game up (As you see it, made it Wowified but to many they made it MUCH better) UNTIL.. LU19 which totally changed the entire class system of course at which many got really ticked and quit again including me.
I was forgiving though and came back again after a couple months and played for sometime until one day I got BORED and decided to take a break it was right when they added a cash store but that was different reason. For many it was a bad decision by SOE to add a cash shop to subscriber based game.
After 2 months I returned and stayed active until last November. The reason I quit this time was, I decided that paying 40 buck an expansion every 6 months to a year and then paying a subscription of 20 bucks a month for full access was not worth the value of playing something else.
SOE is killing EQ2 no one else is because they are gouging the subscribers.
I will get over it in a few months again but still I hate on em once in awhile.
OH,, BTW did you know you can turn off the quest givers quills and actually customize the UI so you never have to see one including the mini map? You can customize the UI to the point all those dumb downed features are not visible?
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
I think your lamenting about it having an early release is..8 years too late. Hanging on to the past like you are isn't even realistic. The game at launch was terrible, and I think you have stars in your eyes with your nostalgia. I started it shortly after launch, then quit for a year and returned after a fundamental GU that changed a lot of what turned many people off (like sub-combines in crafting).
That said, I still play the game. I LOVE it. It has all the depth and variety that is missing in other MMO's. I love the class variety, contrary to your point. How can you say they are all "samey"?
Its not a failure by any stretch. Perhaps in your opinion, but you are one bitter voice out of many that are actually having a blast playing EQ2. The game still gets regular expansions, content updates, events, Fan Faire attention, etc. For an 8 year old game, its doing just fine. If you want to look at a failure, look to Vanguard. That poor game is on life support and its last attempt to gain new blood with the F2P model failed. If you listen, you can hear the footsteps of someone coming down the hallway to pull the plug on that old dog.
So, no. EQ2 is not a failure.
(no I'm not a fanboi. I have been very critical of SOE and the EQ2 team several times over the years)
Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
The game has hardly been a failure. Even now, it has a healthy population. As far as you referring to Borecraft, I'm not surprised. That carrot chasing thing is popular these days.
As far as "vanilla" borecraft being harder in pve then any other game, I'm guessing you did not play EverQuest when it first started? (Even though you say you did). Dying from a swarm of goblins and leaving a corpse behind in the area where you died (containing all of your gear, etc), was by far the roughest thing any game ever did. Going back to that corpse naked(most times), was an amazing challenge.
You contradict yourself often in your post. Wether that was intentional or not, who knows. It seems to go back to Wow this and Wow that. You state valid things and then say otherwise in regards to Borecraft. Games change. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst.
Just because a game fails to you does not mean it does for others. People love to make long post (like I am kind of doing) to somehow validate their disappointment. You'll be lucky to have a low percentage that actually care. I know for one that I don't care about your gaming life story or anyone else's for that matter. (Yeah, I guess I might have broke a forum rule..oh well, it's not like I can say anything on here without getting a warning or tempt ban anyways)
If a game does not interest you anymore, don't play it. It's really not so complicated.
P.S- To the mods: there should be more tolerance with being blunt about topics. Not everything someone says is a direct attack on someone.. constructive criticism can be a good thing as long as it does not break forum rules.
EQ2 fan sites
Ditto, I have always had fun.
That is why there are different games for different people.
Moods change, you grow up, you find new stuff.
Life is Short, Read a Book.
Well EQ2 launched as a much tougher game than the customer base wanted, shared xp loss, getting your shard back and other features reminded of EQ but 1 month after the release of EQ2 WoW was released and changed the MMO market forever. Unfortunately a company has to provide the product that the customers want to buy. You can mope as much as you want about dumbing down and changes you do not like but the only way to get a hardmode game commercially viable is if all these hard mode players actually would play something for a longer period of time.
As other say EQ2 is hardly a failure it is still active on several servers, the FTP model brougth people back, the last changes to the free to try (as is a better name) has been good. There are more activity now than in 2010 IMHO.
You are free to dislike EQ2 but it is not a faliure, it certainly suffered from SOE not really knowing what to do with it but lately they have started to look at what the players wants and implementing that. Smokejumper and Holly have brought something back to EQ2 that was lacking for a long time and that is a vision what they want to accomplish and listening to the people who actually plays the game.
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
You could also write a game with the development expectations scaled back a bit, but then people would probably complain because the development expectations were scaled back a bit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I definitely remember early in the game them changing the classes around and even getting rid of subclass quests and instead you just started as the class you selected. It was a change but did not ruin the game. Honestly what I think ruined it for some of us (I know the servers are high) is the nerfing of the game + the gouging through the cash shop and subscription. Sure, who doesn't like to make money? But when you're focusing on a in-game shop more than adding regular content + charging for xpacs + charging a subscription this is what pisses me off. They need to pick a route better route like B2P + Shop or Subscription based without a shop. Should not be both.
I think you are off base on the gouging remark. Nothing in the Marketplace is required for anything. It is (mostly) cosmetic fluff like mounts, gear, weapons, and housing, with some time saving options like xp boost potions and research reducers. Granted, for the best looking mounts and prestige housing you will pay almost $20, but they are vanity items. You can quest for free mounts in-game, and regular housing is readily available in-game as well. Veteran rewards will give you potion packs for free if you've been playing for long enough to earn them.
Is there a lot of focus on the Marketplace? Sure. Its a huge money maker for them. Has the game content been abandoned with all the focus going to the Marketplace? Well, sometimes it seems like it, with the majority of promo ads being Marketplace and Station Cash focused. However, game content is delivered on a regular basis and weekly improvements are made through updates.
Trust me, I was a very vocal critic of the Marketplace in its first year. After a while, it became evident that it really is just an optional area to buy from if you want to. The core game hasn't been abandoned either. The team is putting out content all the time and fixing (and sometimes breaking) issues that come up. You can ignore the Marketplace entirely and it will not affecet your gameplay at all. Even at "endgame" nothing in the Marketplace is required. The people that do buy items pump in additional revenue that helps improve the game.
So, there is balance, and no one is being gouged. If you buy something its entirely voluntary and not required, so if you feel like its too much ("gouging") then keep your money and spend it elsewhere.
They added healing pots and buff pots but that was for PvE only and only for solo play. The mercs added you bought were suppose to be better than the ones in the agme but I am not sure that worked as intended so yes they did add a bit of pay to win there.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Honeslty man, you were wearing some serious rose colored glasses back then. I too pre ordered EQ2, i was 21 at the time it came out and played it for almost a year after it came out. Were there some fantastically great things about it? Yes. Many of the things you listed (crafting for example, awesome cities, etc).
But the bad FAR FAR outweighed the good. For example. Level limitations to enter zones. This COMPLETELY hindered any kind of exploration. You couldnt leave your first zone area until you were almost level 20. Then you got to go to one new zone, etc.
The graphics engine was extremely poorly optimized. I spent $1000 on a new computer and $360 dollars on a new GeForce 6800GT specifically to play EQ2 with and at max setting i would regularly drop into the teens as far as framerate.
Thats just off the top of my head. There were tons and tons of issues with the game and as a result i quit to play WOW (despite not wanting) because ALL of my friends, and i do mean ALL of my friends quit EQ2 way ahead of me because of the issues.
Now, the changes they made in the 1-3 years afterwards made the game SO SO SO SO SO SO much better. I actually came back and played it for another 2.5 from late 2006-2008 ish until Age of Conan came out.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
The biggest problem with EQ2 was I feel its desire to just push out everquest 1 without really doing major expanding from it. It competed with WoW which, lets face it, wasn't exactly the smoothest launch ever. I really think the big issue came to...
1.) Marketting
2.) Namebrand
3.) Graphics
Blizzard itself at this point was recognized for its Warcraft 3, Starcraft, and Diablo 2 games. It sparked interest from non MMO players which helped to build population up. This was further increased by how they marketed the game out. The graphic style of WoW wasn't astonishing (though it was nice at the time of release) but it had graphics that really snapped, using a particular art style to help make a game look slick without needing heavy graphics work done. This likely drew in more wandering eyes during WoW and EQ2's early years.
What really helped to put a nail in the coffen is Blizzard pushed for more casual friendly gameplay (which truthfully wasn't that bad, in many ways it was more taking out tedious parts of the game without trivializing the gameplay and experience) which in TBC ended up launching it above Everquest 2. The expansion and the patches before it helped to bridge the gap in which MMos were for the hardcore, providing an 'easier' time so to speak for new players and just really as mentioned above cutting out tedious gameplay aspects that other games had and making it more about gameplay then spending 2 hours before raiding stocking up and making food just to do 1 night of raids.
Once you get established numbers, it makes it quite difficult to surpass a game. Ignoring the very iffy F2P model of Everquest 2 right now, it has some great gameplay mechanics still in play and has a class system I actually really like with the AA. I just think its desire to be complex ended up being a downfall. A game needs to keep the middle ground, which if you see WoW currently, that middle ground is being slipped on and face planted right now as the numbers drop very quickly even after an expansion due to both content feeling stale and the game itself having went off the scales in terms of being 'idiot proof' so to speak.
I have no faith in SOE. They took Eq2 which had a decent following and dumbed it down way past stupidity. No player was ever saying stats like Dex and Strength are too hard to understand pls do away with them. Yet SOE decided that removing all those stats and having just a health and power stat was the way to go.
If you check what they did with SWG it was the exact samething. No one was saying I want all these choices and options removed and be giving a "more Iconic" Han Solo cookie cutter class, yet once again SOE who knows way more what there players wanted again went and slashed their own wrists.
EQ next won't be any different. SOE is giving mouth service saying what the players want to hear. They will run the demographics with the PR people and the Suites to see how they can make a super casual farmville sandbox that probably will have player housing and guilds (as EQ2 has) but anything complex, Deep, or hard to balance will be tossed to the way side as they seek the short attention span of the ultra casual heard like masses as their player base.
To the point SOE's maim history of improving or refining its games has always been to streamline them by removing features and making them easier (dumbing them down) so they are playable to the masses ie 8 years old and up.
If your happy playing the same game as the avergage American 8 y/o (can't speak for 8 y/p's in other countrys) Then SOE is the Developer for you.
I use to post here at mmorpg and the EQ2 forum all the time. I stopped awhile back because of all the attacks and trolling of my threads. There was even a few people that claimed I was actually John Smedly. I got tired of that stuff but not EQ2. I have some problems with SOE mainly because of what they did to SWG. However I have no problem with EQ2. Not sure how many of you have played EQ2 since day one, I have. I have seen and worked with all the changes. EQ2 is not a failure. It is better then ever. I think the op states what really happened to him. He grew up during the time of EQ2, I did not. He changed a lot during the time frame he talks about so his feelings about the games he played also changed. I was 45 years old when I started playing. I also started mmos in 1996 with Meridian 59, at the age of 36. You do not change as much then when you are in your teens and twenties so your tastes and opinions are a bit more stable. I have learned to play the game as is not as what I want it to be or what it was. If a games changes in a negative way for my taste I simply leave as I did with swg-nge. I can not tell you how much I loved SWG but I just moved on.
EQ2 has changed and moslty for the better. I do not agree with all the changes. No other game has held me for over 8 years and believe me I tried them all. WOW is the closest with 7 years. If SWG had not changed and was still available I would still be playing that. I am not sure how long EQ2 has but I hope to make my 10 year veteran reward. SOE has made some huge mistakes but they have also delivered a ton of entertainment to me and I doubt that I am the only one who feels this way. Just play an mmo for what it is not what you want it to be or simply move on. If you do that no game will sadden you. EQ2 is a wonderful mmo and is still alive and more then that it is fun.