nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.
8432 posts, believe us, we know
And yet some sounds like they are surprised when they are confronted with preferences other than their own.
nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.
8432 posts, believe us, we know
Yeah, to be honest, I think I pretty much got the gist of things at this point. Repetition for emphasis, I suppose
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.
8432 posts, believe us, we know
And yet some sounds like they are surprised when they are confronted with preferences other than their own.
I'm sensing you are missng the Obi's point here, amirite?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour I remember when the OP was a SWTOR fanatic.
It really is based more around a community, and one that matters. People saying that the old games were great back then but they aren't good now probably haven't played them. SWG preNGE was a fantastic game. The level of community interaction was amazing on many levels that is extremely rare to find today.
I was thinking about SWG when reading through the list, but I still apply plenty of the list to my current game(s).
I do remember when and it was great times. But I ask you this. Do you think in ten years time players will be saying:
Do you remember when we had guilds?
Do you remember when we had crafting?
Do you remember when we had factions?
Do you remember when we had grouping?
Do you remember when we had money you could earn in game and everthing was not paid for with real money?
Do you remember when you had vendors you could sell loot to?
Do you remember when we did not all just stand in a lobby?
Do you remember when we had raids?
This is not a process that has stopped. It carries on and I don't think defenders of the modern easymode MMO quite get that.
Interesting point... and you might be right, in another 10 years.. we might be asking where all this has gone too. Who knows.. maybe the MMO genre won't even be recognizable in the next 10 years.
The point is, there are a lot of systems that we had in place then, that increased the enjoyment and immersion and community aspect of - what is expected to be the pinnacle of multiplayer games. Streamlining is one thing, to make the UI easier to read and to use, to make the graphics more enjoyable, but you are right -- with the current age of "ease of use" it removes the necessity to really work for anything. Least of all a community.
When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.
Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.
That was cool, but I dont think its a shift in gamers mentality that caused it, I think its a shift in game design.
I mean, you could be a complete noob in UO and experience "high level content" right away if you had friends to take you there. I remember hunting dragons with a group when I was a complete noob, shooting with my bow and doing almost no damage. But hey, I was still helping, and I was having fun. So of course I had absolutely no pressure to level as fast as I can.
Nowadays... can you even ENTER a high level dungeon as a low level character?
Games have elvolved and put in place so much artificial restriction on content ( and even gear checks now!) that it does encourage players to try to reach the level cap ASAP to experience it. Its only normal.
The levelling attitude was imported from solo RPG’s to attract solo players, as was so much else. It made as much sense to what MMO’s where as adding treasure hunt game elements to a solo rpg, or puzzle solving elements to a racing game.
I do not think everything that came from solo game design was a disaster. But it was unplanned, not an attempt to find the best of both worlds. It was simply putting in as many solo game features to appeal to the bigger solo game player base as possible.
Many solo features did not fit well or were an antithesis to MMO gameplay. And so today we have a bastard MMO genre, ill conceived and showing it.
When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.
Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.
That was cool, but I dont think its a shift in gamers mentality that caused it, I think its a shift in game design.
I mean, you could be a complete noob in UO and experience "high level content" right away if you had friends to take you there. I remember hunting dragons with a group when I was a complete noob, shooting with my bow and doing almost no damage. But hey, I was still helping, and I was having fun. So of course I had absolutely no pressure to level as fast as I can.
Nowadays... can you even ENTER a high level dungeon as a low level character?
Games have elvolved and put in place so much artificial restriction on content ( and even gear checks now!) that it does encourage players to try to reach the level cap ASAP to experience it. Its only normal.
I think thats kind of the problem though, in many games you really do get sectioned off from everyone. Like the issue in GW2 right now where there are a lot of areas with no people in them... even though you're supposed to be able to do everything you can at end game, from level 1 (minus dungeons but still) it still sections off so much of the population. And in that way, a lot of the content gets forgotten.
Theres nothing that attaches you to anything when you tier gameplay, because you're always looking to the repetitive end, because its really all that matters. None of the other players or areas matter, there are no homes or shops to come back to...
I think thats kind of the problem though, in many games you really do get sectioned off from everyone. Like the issue in GW2 right now where there are a lot of areas with no people in them... even though you're supposed to be able to do everything you can at end game, from level 1 (minus dungeons but still) it still sections off so much of the population. And in that way, a lot of the content gets forgotten.
Theres nothing that attaches you to anything when you tier gameplay, because you're always looking to the repetitive end, because its really all that matters. None of the other players or areas matter, there are no homes or shops to come back to...
People get sectioned off from each other because they WANT to be. Do you think development companies started isolating their players from each other simply for the squeaks and giggles? No, they did it emphatically and deliberately to lower their customer service requests.
What happened to MMOs is very simple to understand. The genre was invaded and conquered. Probably a few times. Less-than-wise developers didn't protest, either, because the invasion(s) put money in their pockets NOW instead of later.
There is no place on this planet where this should be more evident than mmorpg.com. It should only take about two or three thread readings for someone to say, "Wow, these people don't listen to each other and say things that are polar opposites from each other."
It's because we don't like each other, don't want the same things from our entertainment, and shouldn't be forced to interacting with each other. If you don't understand yet, setup a checkerboard with chess pieces on one side and try to play against each other.
People get sectioned off from each other because they WANT to be. Do you think development companies started isolating their players from each other simply for the squeaks and giggles? No, they did it emphatically and deliberately to lower their customer service requests.
Yeah. People don't like to congregate as much as some may imagine.
What happened to MMOs is very simple to understand. The genre was invaded and conquered. Probably a few times. Less-than-wise developers didn't protest, either, because the invasion(s) put money in their pockets NOW instead of later.
More like adapted to the larger market. Oh, i think the devs are very wise. Why works for 10k players, when you can work for 10M? Better financial reward. Larger audience. More fans. Higher satisfaction.
There is no place on this planet where this should be more evident than mmorpg.com. It should only take about two or three thread readings for someone to say, "Wow, these people don't listen to each other and say things that are polar opposites from each other."
It's because we don't like each other, don't want the same things from our entertainment, and shouldn't be forced to interacting with each other. If you don't understand yet, setup a checkerboard with chess pieces on one side and try to play against each other.
Very true. That is the key. There is no we .. and there are many preferences of what is good entertainment.
Yeah. People don't like to congregate as much as some may imagine.
Was that supposed to be funny? If not then you missed the entire point of my post. Some people most definitely like to congregate, especially if the congregation is of like-minded individuals with a similar recreational purpose in mind. The only reason that separation is becoming far more prevalent is because the industry is trying to appease and maintain playerbases composed of parasitic, traditional, generic, and exploitative playstyles, together under the same roof.
More like adapted to the larger market. Oh, i think the devs are very wise. Why works for 10k players, when you can work for 10M? Better financial reward. Larger audience. More fans. Higher satisfaction.
There is only one game on the entire planet that can claim 10 million concurrent subscribers, and I'm not entirely sure it currently qualifies (even though once it could have boasted 12 million). Your statement is once again unintentionally hilarious because 10k subs is actually a VERY common number for many mainstream MMOs. The world hasn't gotten smaller in the last decade. The competition may have gotten more robust, but technological availability has risen exponentially.
No, your thinking is entirely wrong. Trying to appeal to everyone simultaneously has never produced a viable product and would certainly not be categorized as wise.
You can see on World of Warcraft's Cross Realm Zones how people don't want to congregate together when forced. By forcing servers to merge together in zones people can't properly play together because they are on different servers, and everyone is strangers fighting against each other for solo mob spawn rates. Why make the content solo and force people to compete for it? On a PVE server it makes no sense. For Blizzard to justify Cross Realm Zones, they need to make the mobs elite quality group mobs again, because all they did was up competition, while the mobs are so easy peesy, that they die in one hit...
Especially, if you happen to be doing low level quests that you missed out on as a max level 90, and they all die in one hit, yet you have to compete and group up with other 80-90's due to lack of spawn rates? Harvesting is painful now that zone populations have increased, and you have to deal with people phasing in on your harvest node, that you didn't see becaus they were invisible to you!!
Not to mention, the nightmare that doing Eternal Vale dailys has become, there are 20 or so people doing solo quests, fighting each other over mob spawns, when the zone should scale up to be group/raid quests, why have 20 people soloing against each other on a PVE server?
They do need to learn scaling content technology, solo mobs should only exist if there's 1 person, not to be over camped by a high level or multiple people mass exterminating them with 0 challenge factor... There need to be harder elite group/raid mobs out in the world... Sha's are cool in Pandaria, but that doesn't make up for the solo-centric content in the entire rest of Azeroth!!
Stuff like simply finding rare names up in the world is now much harder with higher numbers of people in a zone, crowds made making a pandaren monk a nightmare, people on beta couldn't even do their quests thanks to overcrowding. Crowds ruin everything, they ruin immersion and fun, you need to segregate players to an extent, in order to reduce lag and make a game playable ...
Once they figure out how to scale up mob difficulty to number of players or player's level however, we can end this max high levels annihilating gray low level trash content...
So, yeah, games need to give options, ways to avoid daily grinds, instead of enforce them on everyone, ways to seperate the community and reduce crowds, give people more to do and not force them all into a new expansion, bring more life into older content...
So, yeah, games need to give options, ways to avoid daily grinds, instead of enforce them on everyone, ways to seperate the community and reduce crowds, give people more to do and not force them all into a new expansion, bring more life into older content...
Another person that I have no business addressing because we shouldn't even be using the same internet forum.
Just to make it clear for passer-bys, the type of separation you are talking about is not the same as the lack of communical association that the OP is concerned with. Your problem seems to stem from poor server management and an abundance of virtual greed among what is undoubtedly an overly power-hungry population.
Once upon a time, people actually sought out interaction with other players simply for the sake of the interaction and fun. It wasn't to camp mobs together or sell a high level raid token. While such interaction still exists to a degree, it has degraded substantially in recent times and is arguably much lower calibur.
But thanks for reminding me (and probably a few others) why I don't want to be playing your type of MMO...
Just to respond to the first page: I miss the feeling of coming into the server (logging in ofc) and saying hi to my guild and tradechat and I'd know about 40-50% of the active people on the server. Of course we have to move on, but looking back that's what I liked the most. The game itself sucked, but the community and the optional grouping (though highly encouraged for more experience... a full grinding party of 7 gave bonus xp, about 80% of what a duo got) with benefits was great. It was socialise or be a slowpoke...
Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Players are "sectioned of" to help the servers cope with so many people. It has nothing to do with players not wanting to play with other players. Please point me to the threads in MMO's where players are complaining they see too many people when playing their MMO. Threads like that do not exist because in a MMO players want multiplayer, if you are a solo game player who wants every game to have only solo gameplay, you may not want multiplayer but we do.
I still do a large amount of what you stated in Eve.
To be honest though you are right, completely. Using world of warcraft as an example. Now I can smash my face into the keyboard and beat monsters, there is very little challenge to be had while you level up. The levels come incredibly fast, and the areas are done with in an hour. I Don't need to interact with anyone else as I level up, not one person is needed to get to end game. If I do group up, my quest experience remains the same, but the exp generated is often as much as I get for killing monsters, which is greatly nerfed by grouping up.
If I group up I have to slow down for my leveling partners leveling rate, I have to slow down to fit their schedule, afks etc. I have to also share quest items from monsters, yes some games have figured ways around this, but lots still have not.
Now everyone is fixated on end game, I shouldn't say everone, the majority of people are. The best content, the most challenging content, the better loot, the better abilities, it's all locked away there. Even for crafters.
Taking everquest as an example now, original everquest.
I began grouping up at about level 10, working with others to kill much more difficult monsters. My progress was quicker, and we chatted to each other while we did it. Because it was difficult to progress through these areas, I used to love how getting deeper into it and seeing more was a challenge, but because it was a challenge, seeing more was so much more entertaining.
Today the very idea of difficult monsters as you level up is horrific, any thought of making it take a long time is considered grindy.
In what world should it be that the end game of an MMO is considered the game? And the levels leading upto it considered a anoying thing that we must grind through.
Now this thread talks about whats missing now from our MMOs, and so many fools have said it's because we're all nostalgic fools, well what I just listed are facts, hard facts. No nostalia there.
P.S To the person who said Final Fantasy 7 is nostaligia and not so great of a game, false. I have returned several times and each time I have been more than happy with the gameplay I got. Go ahead and tell me baldur's Gate 2 isn't as good as the current crop of RPGs and my reason for classifying it as one of the late great RPGs is that I am nostaligic...
Originally posted by Scot Players are "sectioned of" to help the servers cope with so many people.
Not what the OP is talking about. You can divide a playerbase up into manageable servers without isolating groups and individual soloers from each other. The only games that don't have multiple prospective servers are typically games that don't use a lot of instancing and allow for a very high degree of interaction.
Originally posted by Scot Please point me to the threads in MMO's where players are complaining they see too many people when playing their MMO.
How about this one, four posts up from yours. If you don't see that people want to be isolated from other incompatible playstyles, it's probably because you are a griefer and precisely the person they want to be isolated from.
Something to ponder since social interaction (and the lack thereof) is brought up so much on this board, is how can game developers possibly go about pleasing everyone.
Basically you have 3 groups, those that want instant PvE content, the soloists, and the people that want a more robust social experience.
I have my own ideas and, tbh, I should have made a seperate thread about this but I'm a bit short on time this morning
(tbc)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
I got told I was unsociable today because I didn't use Facebook and twitter. I said I prefered talking to people face to face rather then using a computer and that Facebook and twitter do not make you a social animal...they laughed...I cried.
When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?
When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?
When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?
When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?
When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?
When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?
When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?
When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?
When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?
When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?
When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?
What happened to those times?
Yes. Yes, I do remember SWG pre-CU.
My best guess as to what happened: game companies sensed there was a profit to be made, and that the MMO demographic was only reaching a portion of the video game market at large.
Most MMOs now are glossy, easily accessible, "hold your hand" affairs that take little to no time to understand. There are some exceptions, I'm sure. But the corporate machine is driving MMOs to market sooner then they should be, lacking depth and content that veteran MMO-ers have come to expect.
The result is a lifeless game that bleeds the initial playerbase and sends the developers scrambling to reach their pre-launch levels of hype and excitement. Meanwhile, the masses are moving on to the "next big thing", rinse and repeat.
And yet we play. Is it out of fun, or is it our undying quest to recapture what may never be again?
We're as much to blame as the developers. We know we should stop, but we do not. Someone will get it right, won't they? Sure. Now, just enter your credit card here, download the client, and go enjoy the most dynamic and innovative MMO experience ever released! (Until the next one).
It has nothing to do with nostalgia, and everything to do with how different the communities are, and how much games have shifted their system compared to their old counterparts.
Older MMOs were developped more as sandboxes or at least giving players as many tools as possible to do what they want to do (UO, SWG, etc). They would also require the involvement of several players to achieve even basic things such as leveling (EQ, FFXI, etc). Both of these things created great communities of players that care about more than just themselves, but also the people they play and interact with.
Today's MMOs are very restrictive in terms of what players can do, and are extremely solo-centric. Rather than being about communities, MMOs are about "You". The need to interact with other players has greatly lessened with the exception of end-game, but the need to develop any relationship was also removed through the addition of PUGs.
That is not to say that older MMOs were perfect, by no mean were they even close. However, to claim that our preference to older MMOs is purely out of nostalgia, considering how different the games and communities were compared to today, is just pure ignorance.
I was reading replies and starting to get out of my rocking chair to post when I saw this reply.
Comments
And yet some sounds like they are surprised when they are confronted with preferences other than their own.
Yeah, to be honest, I think I pretty much got the gist of things at this point. Repetition for emphasis, I suppose
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm sensing you are missng the Obi's point here, amirite?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I do remember when and it was great times. But I ask you this. Do you think in ten years time players will be saying:
Do you remember when we had guilds?
Do you remember when we had crafting?
Do you remember when we had factions?
Do you remember when we had grouping?
Do you remember when we had money you could earn in game and everthing was not paid for with real money?
Do you remember when you had vendors you could sell loot to?
Do you remember when we did not all just stand in a lobby?
Do you remember when we had raids?
This is not a process that has stopped. It carries on and I don't think defenders of the modern easymode MMO quite get that.
I was thinking about SWG when reading through the list, but I still apply plenty of the list to my current game(s).
Interesting point... and you might be right, in another 10 years.. we might be asking where all this has gone too. Who knows.. maybe the MMO genre won't even be recognizable in the next 10 years.
The point is, there are a lot of systems that we had in place then, that increased the enjoyment and immersion and community aspect of - what is expected to be the pinnacle of multiplayer games. Streamlining is one thing, to make the UI easier to read and to use, to make the graphics more enjoyable, but you are right -- with the current age of "ease of use" it removes the necessity to really work for anything. Least of all a community.
That was cool, but I dont think its a shift in gamers mentality that caused it, I think its a shift in game design.
I mean, you could be a complete noob in UO and experience "high level content" right away if you had friends to take you there. I remember hunting dragons with a group when I was a complete noob, shooting with my bow and doing almost no damage. But hey, I was still helping, and I was having fun. So of course I had absolutely no pressure to level as fast as I can.
Nowadays... can you even ENTER a high level dungeon as a low level character?
Games have elvolved and put in place so much artificial restriction on content ( and even gear checks now!) that it does encourage players to try to reach the level cap ASAP to experience it. Its only normal.
The levelling attitude was imported from solo RPG’s to attract solo players, as was so much else. It made as much sense to what MMO’s where as adding treasure hunt game elements to a solo rpg, or puzzle solving elements to a racing game.
I do not think everything that came from solo game design was a disaster. But it was unplanned, not an attempt to find the best of both worlds. It was simply putting in as many solo game features to appeal to the bigger solo game player base as possible.
Many solo features did not fit well or were an antithesis to MMO gameplay. And so today we have a bastard MMO genre, ill conceived and showing it.
I remember Scot. And I will never be able to forget.
I think thats kind of the problem though, in many games you really do get sectioned off from everyone. Like the issue in GW2 right now where there are a lot of areas with no people in them... even though you're supposed to be able to do everything you can at end game, from level 1 (minus dungeons but still) it still sections off so much of the population. And in that way, a lot of the content gets forgotten.
Theres nothing that attaches you to anything when you tier gameplay, because you're always looking to the repetitive end, because its really all that matters. None of the other players or areas matter, there are no homes or shops to come back to...
People get sectioned off from each other because they WANT to be. Do you think development companies started isolating their players from each other simply for the squeaks and giggles? No, they did it emphatically and deliberately to lower their customer service requests.
What happened to MMOs is very simple to understand. The genre was invaded and conquered. Probably a few times. Less-than-wise developers didn't protest, either, because the invasion(s) put money in their pockets NOW instead of later.
There is no place on this planet where this should be more evident than mmorpg.com. It should only take about two or three thread readings for someone to say, "Wow, these people don't listen to each other and say things that are polar opposites from each other."
It's because we don't like each other, don't want the same things from our entertainment, and shouldn't be forced to interacting with each other. If you don't understand yet, setup a checkerboard with chess pieces on one side and try to play against each other.
still there, since I pay for my own accounts I play by my rules.
not catering to any FOTM class or what a 'leader' wants for their endgame pve content.
playing to please someone else = ruining fun and ends in cancelling subscriptions.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
You can see on World of Warcraft's Cross Realm Zones how people don't want to congregate together when forced. By forcing servers to merge together in zones people can't properly play together because they are on different servers, and everyone is strangers fighting against each other for solo mob spawn rates. Why make the content solo and force people to compete for it? On a PVE server it makes no sense. For Blizzard to justify Cross Realm Zones, they need to make the mobs elite quality group mobs again, because all they did was up competition, while the mobs are so easy peesy, that they die in one hit...
Especially, if you happen to be doing low level quests that you missed out on as a max level 90, and they all die in one hit, yet you have to compete and group up with other 80-90's due to lack of spawn rates? Harvesting is painful now that zone populations have increased, and you have to deal with people phasing in on your harvest node, that you didn't see becaus they were invisible to you!!
Not to mention, the nightmare that doing Eternal Vale dailys has become, there are 20 or so people doing solo quests, fighting each other over mob spawns, when the zone should scale up to be group/raid quests, why have 20 people soloing against each other on a PVE server?
They do need to learn scaling content technology, solo mobs should only exist if there's 1 person, not to be over camped by a high level or multiple people mass exterminating them with 0 challenge factor... There need to be harder elite group/raid mobs out in the world... Sha's are cool in Pandaria, but that doesn't make up for the solo-centric content in the entire rest of Azeroth!!
Stuff like simply finding rare names up in the world is now much harder with higher numbers of people in a zone, crowds made making a pandaren monk a nightmare, people on beta couldn't even do their quests thanks to overcrowding. Crowds ruin everything, they ruin immersion and fun, you need to segregate players to an extent, in order to reduce lag and make a game playable ...
Once they figure out how to scale up mob difficulty to number of players or player's level however, we can end this max high levels annihilating gray low level trash content...
So, yeah, games need to give options, ways to avoid daily grinds, instead of enforce them on everyone, ways to seperate the community and reduce crowds, give people more to do and not force them all into a new expansion, bring more life into older content...
Another person that I have no business addressing because we shouldn't even be using the same internet forum.
Just to make it clear for passer-bys, the type of separation you are talking about is not the same as the lack of communical association that the OP is concerned with. Your problem seems to stem from poor server management and an abundance of virtual greed among what is undoubtedly an overly power-hungry population.
Once upon a time, people actually sought out interaction with other players simply for the sake of the interaction and fun. It wasn't to camp mobs together or sell a high level raid token. While such interaction still exists to a degree, it has degraded substantially in recent times and is arguably much lower calibur.
But thanks for reminding me (and probably a few others) why I don't want to be playing your type of MMO...
Just to respond to the first page: I miss the feeling of coming into the server (logging in ofc) and saying hi to my guild and tradechat and I'd know about 40-50% of the active people on the server. Of course we have to move on, but looking back that's what I liked the most. The game itself sucked, but the community and the optional grouping (though highly encouraged for more experience... a full grinding party of 7 gave bonus xp, about 80% of what a duo got) with benefits was great. It was socialise or be a slowpoke...
Edit: I'd like to add that the solo generation (as I call it) has ruined it for me. People who prefer to go through the content solo, because they don't want to be bothered by others, should play singleplayer games. They like the feel of MMOs, but they don't get what the game is about. Just my 2 cents :P These people really annoy the hell out of me
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
I still do a large amount of what you stated in Eve.
To be honest though you are right, completely. Using world of warcraft as an example. Now I can smash my face into the keyboard and beat monsters, there is very little challenge to be had while you level up. The levels come incredibly fast, and the areas are done with in an hour. I Don't need to interact with anyone else as I level up, not one person is needed to get to end game. If I do group up, my quest experience remains the same, but the exp generated is often as much as I get for killing monsters, which is greatly nerfed by grouping up.
If I group up I have to slow down for my leveling partners leveling rate, I have to slow down to fit their schedule, afks etc. I have to also share quest items from monsters, yes some games have figured ways around this, but lots still have not.
Now everyone is fixated on end game, I shouldn't say everone, the majority of people are. The best content, the most challenging content, the better loot, the better abilities, it's all locked away there. Even for crafters.
Taking everquest as an example now, original everquest.
I began grouping up at about level 10, working with others to kill much more difficult monsters. My progress was quicker, and we chatted to each other while we did it. Because it was difficult to progress through these areas, I used to love how getting deeper into it and seeing more was a challenge, but because it was a challenge, seeing more was so much more entertaining.
Today the very idea of difficult monsters as you level up is horrific, any thought of making it take a long time is considered grindy.
In what world should it be that the end game of an MMO is considered the game? And the levels leading upto it considered a anoying thing that we must grind through.
Now this thread talks about whats missing now from our MMOs, and so many fools have said it's because we're all nostalgic fools, well what I just listed are facts, hard facts. No nostalia there.
P.S To the person who said Final Fantasy 7 is nostaligia and not so great of a game, false. I have returned several times and each time I have been more than happy with the gameplay I got. Go ahead and tell me baldur's Gate 2 isn't as good as the current crop of RPGs and my reason for classifying it as one of the late great RPGs is that I am nostaligic...
Not what the OP is talking about. You can divide a playerbase up into manageable servers without isolating groups and individual soloers from each other. The only games that don't have multiple prospective servers are typically games that don't use a lot of instancing and allow for a very high degree of interaction.
How about this one, four posts up from yours. If you don't see that people want to be isolated from other incompatible playstyles, it's probably because you are a griefer and precisely the person they want to be isolated from.
Something to ponder since social interaction (and the lack thereof) is brought up so much on this board, is how can game developers possibly go about pleasing everyone.
Basically you have 3 groups, those that want instant PvE content, the soloists, and the people that want a more robust social experience.
I have my own ideas and, tbh, I should have made a seperate thread about this but I'm a bit short on time this morning
(tbc)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Talking about social stuff..
I got told I was unsociable today because I didn't use Facebook and twitter. I said I prefered talking to people face to face rather then using a computer and that Facebook and twitter do not make you a social animal...they laughed...I cried.
LOL i remember when I did that too.
Yes. Yes, I do remember SWG pre-CU.
My best guess as to what happened: game companies sensed there was a profit to be made, and that the MMO demographic was only reaching a portion of the video game market at large.
Most MMOs now are glossy, easily accessible, "hold your hand" affairs that take little to no time to understand. There are some exceptions, I'm sure. But the corporate machine is driving MMOs to market sooner then they should be, lacking depth and content that veteran MMO-ers have come to expect.
The result is a lifeless game that bleeds the initial playerbase and sends the developers scrambling to reach their pre-launch levels of hype and excitement. Meanwhile, the masses are moving on to the "next big thing", rinse and repeat.
And yet we play. Is it out of fun, or is it our undying quest to recapture what may never be again?
We're as much to blame as the developers. We know we should stop, but we do not. Someone will get it right, won't they? Sure. Now, just enter your credit card here, download the client, and go enjoy the most dynamic and innovative MMO experience ever released! (Until the next one).
I was reading replies and starting to get out of my rocking chair to post when I saw this reply.
No need to post. This said it all.