I'm really puzzled that people are raging about tab-targeting in PFO when nobody knows yet if there will be tab targetting in PFO or not.
I'll wait to try it before forming a judgement. They are to release a solo melee combat client in the Autumn. Might even be this year.
A couple of reasons:
1) Combat IS undeniably a core feature, so even a crumb of info will light more than a few discussions.
2) Archage on a budget of 25$m or so, has some sandbox features but seems to be fairly "tradtional mmorpg" combat and there was a thread on that that sparked a lot of discussion despite the tons of skills available to skill-up. It seems that for a sandbox mmorpg, there will inevtiably be trade-offs to create all the systems, hence combat likely not being especially innovative possibility/disappointment?
If PFO is attempting to have mass combat, then that puts pressure on the design choices/constraints available for the combat, also.
DCUO has tab-ish style combat, yet it is still THE BEST combat I've ever seen in an MMO. Tab combat doesn't necessarily mean action-less.
Macro-able hotbar combat is what gets repetitive and unfun... the option of how to select your target has very little to do with the actual style, depth, and pace of the combat.
and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...
no action combat, no future
Beleave me, any combat better then TSW with decent story and well made world will be played
Originally posted by Scalpless I really don't see what the targeting method has to do with combat being action-y or not. For example, do you know what GW2's targeting method is quite similar to? Devil May Cry's targeting. DMC is the epitome of crazy, player skill -focused action and it uses an automatic targeting system, because aiming is simply not important in a game like that. It's not important in TERA, either, because you'd have to be blind not to hit that game's slow-moving monsters that cover half of your screen.
You have to play level 60 HM dungeons or PvP to understand TERAs combat. Fighting a fat Kumas at level 22 means nothing, sadly thats about the most that most people experience with regards to TERA before blowing it off.
Regardless, even then, a slow ass Kumas is still more involved than WoW for example. WoW I fight a mob, it hits me I hit it, theres no exception, you stand still both hitting each other constantly....well it doesn't even feel like you're hitting them.
TERA you can dodge so that you never get hit and you can position behind them for more damage, which involves constant movement and actual thinking, regardless of how slow the Kumas is, on top of that you're attacks have weight behind them.
Not to mention unlike games like GW2 or WoW, there's very little passive heal regeneration in TERA...so...making mistakes and getting hit will eventually kill you.
There is nothing unique about action style combat. Either way you're getting the "same ol" rehashed combat in one form or another. I rather the game stay as true to pathfinder as humanly possible, the game millions love. Unless you want to make a D&D abomination otherwise known is DDO. Lets do it right this time.
I like fps style combat in my mmorpgs.. Darkfall, Mortal online.. that type of combat..
Saying that i dont mind tab target combat if the game is done right..
Didnt enjoy the combat in GW2 as it was basically just a tab target system, didnt enjoy tera combat because it stopped you moving every time you attacked..
Tab target games I enjoyed.. SWG, EQ1 + 2..
Also enjoyed the system AOC used, shame they didnt use it in TSW..
I prefer tab-target so I can typing in chat box while in combat, discussing the strategy. I also can eat snack or drink on one hand while in combat. It's much more relaxing and much more suitable to my playstyle. Just like back in the pen and paper table top gaming day.
This thread seam a bit stupid imo (no offence op), PO isn't a usual mmo that is build from scratch, they will use their pathfinder combat system, and i don't see why they should do otherwise, same for "will it be trinity based or not?", they will just use and port pathfinder systems. I sure hope that's what they plan anyway, and i'm pretty confident they called the game PO for that reason too.
Originally posted by tom_gore As long as there is an option for player faction based PvP with territory control I don't give a shit if it's tab target or action combat.
they die less fast...look at mmos released with traditional tab target combat, theyre not making it half a year (secret world for example)
i truly believe, to stay alive as an mmo nowadays you need to be
a) niche, which comes also from b and c,
b) sandbox
c) interesting combat mechanics - therefore no tab target combat
Lol he said Secret World which is doing just fine, funny how people think a game fails because it doesn't have 50 million subs, who cares they are making a ton of money and they are up 400% on people playing now. So again what is wrong with Tab target? I for one do not like it, unless itd done right and the game has intersting features which I think PathFinder does, but that is not why a game fails.
Also games do not fail because players say so, the fail if they do not make money, gamers / people today make me laugh !!
I don't care what sort of combat it has, as long as it has meaningful player interaction, player interdependency (see: not soloable all the time) and settlement/area warfare.
Well glad this was clarified. Definitely taking this off my watch list. Tab targeting is skill-less in my opinion. Anyone can pick it up and do good. I like games where not only does your weaponry come into account but your skill. Nothing beats it.
they die less fast...look at mmos released with traditional tab target combat, theyre not making it half a year (secret world for example)
i truly believe, to stay alive as an mmo nowadays you need to be
a) niche, which comes also from b and c,
b) sandbox
c) interesting combat mechanics - therefore no tab target combat
Compare TERA to Rift.
Rift can't be called a failure, however TERA can.
A- I dunno about that, EVE is kinda the only one that comes to mind.
B-Again how's Darkfall and Mortal Online doing?
C-See TERA, combat doesnt keep people around.
Actually it does, TERA started niche and then the poor rate at which content was developed caused a lot of people to leave due to having literally nothing to do at all, when youre title is small to begin(releasing with 11 servers, which was still too many) and then you fail to provide content and you're a typical themepark, you're going to have population problems no matter how good your combat is.
But the people who still are sticking around and still playing are only playing because they can't get over the combat and play other games. Myself included.
On your point about Darkfall and Mortal...those are buggy, poorly developed, horribly managed messes. The combat/sandbox elements have nothing to do with why those are failing, it's the only reason they are still alive. The same goes for TERA, without it's combat it would be shutdown before it even came out due to failing in Korea. Games that develop action combat or sandbox style gameplay seem to always do everything else wrong.
Heres hoping Black Desert can change that, stunning visuals, action combat, sandbox, AAA budget.
Originally posted by Celusios Well glad this was clarified. Definitely taking this off my watch list. Tab targeting is skill-less in my opinion. Anyone can pick it up and do good. I like games where not only does your weaponry come into account but your skill. Nothing beats it.
With how the game is coming out, I actually prefer it being based on "character" skill and player strategy rather than "player" skill and their twitch speed.
It's pretty stupid when someone's character who is essentially stronger than another loses to the weaker character just because the other player is better. Also, I don't see what's wrong with anyone being able to be good at it. If it was the case where the highest skilled players (rather than characters) dominated, it would no doubt scare away some people.
I like some games to be player skill-based. This game, however, is not one of them.
They haven't even built the combat syste beyond the bare bones. I have looked at everything listened to all the intrviews and there still isnt enough information on how the combat system will work yet folks here are say 'aw I've lost all interest becaue its tab targetting and a few paragraphs later someone else is say aw, I'm giving up on this because it isn't tab targetting.
The only thing I've heard definitively is that the player will have to manage their stamina effectively.
That says nothing positive or negative about tab targetting. It talks about stamina management which is a twist already.
I don't care what sort of combat it has, as long as it has meaningful player interaction, player interdependency (see: not soloable all the time) and settlement/area warfare.
From what I've read soloing will be rare. The devs were warning someone asking about soloability and they said 'don't do that you will die'.
Personally I'd like there to be some solo content outside of crafting, but it doesn't sound like I'll get much of that.
they die less fast...look at mmos released with traditional tab target combat, theyre not making it half a year (secret world for example)
i truly believe, to stay alive as an mmo nowadays you need to be
a) niche, which comes also from b and c,
b) sandbox
c) interesting combat mechanics - therefore no tab target combat
Compare TERA to Rift.
Rift can't be called a failure, however TERA can.
A- I dunno about that, EVE is kinda the only one that comes to mind.
B-Again how's Darkfall and Mortal Online doing?
C-See TERA, combat doesnt keep people around.
DF and MO are closer to FPSMMOs like Defiance than they are to MMORPGs and I think that is the problem. Some people want an action game where you combine console shooter with RPG where your twitch-skills determine your success. That's fine and can be fun at times, but for Pathfinder I am hoping that they stick to the core of their tabletop RPG where your CHARACTER's skills determine success or failure.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
they die less fast...look at mmos released with traditional tab target combat, theyre not making it half a year (secret world for example)
i truly believe, to stay alive as an mmo nowadays you need to be
a) niche, which comes also from b and c,
b) sandbox
c) interesting combat mechanics - therefore no tab target combat
Compare TERA to Rift.
Rift can't be called a failure, however TERA can.
A- I dunno about that, EVE is kinda the only one that comes to mind.
B-Again how's Darkfall and Mortal Online doing?
C-See TERA, combat doesnt keep people around.
DF and MO are closer to FPSMMOs like Defiance than they are to MMORPGs and I think that is the problem. Some people want an action game where you combine console shooter with RPG where your twitch-skills determine your success. That's fine and can be fun at times, but for Pathfinder I am hoping that they stick to the core of their tabletop RPG where your CHARACTER's skills determine success or failure.
If tera had a shred of substance to its looks and combat the game would be far more popular.
People get sick of the quest hub grind, followed by a few dungeons and one battleground at endgame.
I find the action based combat is a bit more engaging and entertaining, dont really mind tab target..just that system boils down to running the right skill sequence macro. Once you get your skill rotation its pretty much a boring event to encounter player or mob in combat. Dont mind that kind of combat if the games good and theres a lot of complexity to the skill system, character development, and gear however.
From everything Ive read so far, Id say Tab-targeting is pretty likely. Action and twitchy combat is definately out, wich seems to support tab-targeting. Though I suppose it could be some wierd form of true or autotargeting mixed with a slower combat without active blocks and dodges and what not. But that sounds like it would be weird, Imagine playing WoW with everything exaxtly the same but you used true targeting. Better yet, Imagine combat as slow as FFXI yet with true targeting........ this sounds strange, non-traditional, out-of-sync, and unlikely to me.
Other than an extreme likely-hood of tab targeting, the devs desire for a non-actiony/twitchy appraoch and the stamina thing, we dont know a whole lot. We did recently find out that friendly fire was still up in the air though from AoE skills. And we do know that large-scale battles are going to be done in unit formations which will be stronger than individuals not using them, for the purpose of stopping zerging as a good option. So its possible large-scale combat might play sort of like a strategy simulator? IDK for sure its sort of hard to picture what the devs have in mind. Also we arent even sure if there will or will not be auto-attack.
The only other bit of information I know is that they do hope to make a more cerebral and tactical experience. What does this mean? Who freaking knows. BUT what I hope it means is complex tab-target battle that is some awesome combination of chess meets standard MMO, which require reason and situation to determine the use of an action, and not the GCD hell, or twitch based reaction. Maybe something complex like the use of an ability requiring that situation, distance, direction, element type, weapon type, terrain, and stamina all being taken into consideration before you attack or risk failed or unsatisfactory results?
From everything Ive read so far, Id say Tab-targeting is pretty likely. Action and twitchy combat is definately out, wich seems to support tab-targeting. Though I suppose it could be some wierd form of true or autotargeting mixed with a slower combat without active blocks and dodges and what not. But that sounds like it would be weird, Imagine playing WoW with everything exaxtly the same but you used true targeting. Better yet, Imagine combat as slow as FFXI yet with true targeting........ this sounds strange, non-traditional, out-of-sync, and unlikely to me.
Other than an extreme likely-hood of tab targeting, the devs desire for a non-actiony/twitchy appraoch and the stamina thing, we dont know a whole lot. We did recently find out that friendly fire was still up in the air though from AoE skills. And we do know that large-scale battles are going to be done in unit formations which will be stronger than individuals not using them, for the purpose of stopping zerging as a good option. So its possible large-scale combat might play sort of like a strategy simulator? IDK for sure its sort of hard to picture what the devs have in mind. Also we arent even sure if there will or will not be auto-attack.
The only other bit of information I know is that they do hope to make a more cerebral and tactical experience. What does this mean? Who freaking knows. BUT what I hope it means is complex tab-target battle that is some awesome combination of chess meets standard MMO, which require reason and situation to determine the use of an action, and not the GCD hell, or twitch based reaction. Maybe something complex like the use of an ability requiring that situation, distance, direction, element type, weapon type, terrain, and stamina all being taken into consideration before you attack or risk failed or unsatisfactory results?
This is a very good post. FYI, they are still hiring for certain positions eg "combat programmer"
Yeah, tab-target is highly likely. I'm sure we'll begin to get more details nearer the "Pit-Fighter" release at the back-end of 2013.
Announcing Pathfinder Online: Pit Fight!
From the beginning, Goblinworks has been working to get our fans involved in the process of developing Pathfinder Online as early as possible so we can live up to the Pathfinder tradition of player involvement in the development process.
In the fall of 2013 we'll be releasing a combat testing tool called Pit Fight!
Our players can help us get a much wider range of combat data while getting a preview of combat in Pathfinder Online. Pit Fight will be a stand-alone, single-player experience.
Pit Fight will put the player through a number of gladiatorial battles, fought in the newly constructed Bonepit Arena in Thornkeep. Players will be able to get a sneak preview of our combat design and help us shape its development through PvE conflict against various NPC opponents. Initially, players will be using a limited number of prebuilt characters beginning with Fighters but expanding over time to involve other classes, combat styles, etc. Players will be able to try a handful of scenarios we specifically want to test, but over time we’ll add more characters, more customization, and more scenarios. Players will be able to see what aspects of combat they most enjoy and plan their advancement path once Pathfinder Online launches.
We plan to release Pit Fight in Fall 2013. We are finalizing the platforms we can support but we anticipate the baseline will be a Unity Web App.
Well TERA is doing amazing these days. Servers stay maxed and they're doing so well they're expanding again. That game is exactly how they promoted it, it's just the slow content updates early on had people confused. Gets updates faster these days though. JS
I will admit that Action-Twitch based combat feels more engaging, but I think fast Tab-targetting games like ArcheAge blur the lines a bit. The combat in that game has sped up so much since early beta that it looks like pure action madness at times.
Well TERA is doing amazing these days. Servers stay maxed and they're doing so well they're expanding again. That game is exactly how they promoted it, it's just the slow content updates early on had people confused. Gets updates faster these days though. JS
I will admit that Action-Twitch based combat feels more engaging, but I think fast Tab-targetting games like ArcheAge blur the lines a bit. The combat in that game has sped up so much since early beta that it looks like pure action madness at times.
Tbh, I know this meanders off-topic from combat discussion, but I really really hope PFO skill-training embraces a plethora of a multitude of different so-called "skill" as much as non-combat, indirect-non-combat and combat and more.
If PFO does this, I'll probably not be too judgemental on the combat being tab-target - though I'd hedge by saying the combat for random small groups still needs to be tactical and slow and CEREBRAL. If you forfeit actiony-adrenaline-hit gameplay then the former is a preferrable drug. No drug is no good for the gameplay "addiction" that players need from a great game.
I'm not really sure about tera, it looks like a FPS experience. I prefer the look of firefall and disappointed firefall did not turn out so well yet. I still think if you like mmorpg games you're in it for the character as much as the mechanics of combat. Interested to see what The Repopulation and Camelot Unchained combats turn out like as well.
Comments
I'm really puzzled that people are raging about tab-targeting in PFO when nobody knows yet if there will be tab targetting in PFO or not.
I'll wait to try it before forming a judgement. They are to release a solo melee combat client in the Autumn. Might even be this year.
To dream, perhaps to be.
A couple of reasons:
1) Combat IS undeniably a core feature, so even a crumb of info will light more than a few discussions.
2) Archage on a budget of 25$m or so, has some sandbox features but seems to be fairly "tradtional mmorpg" combat and there was a thread on that that sparked a lot of discussion despite the tons of skills available to skill-up. It seems that for a sandbox mmorpg, there will inevtiably be trade-offs to create all the systems, hence combat likely not being especially innovative possibility/disappointment?
If PFO is attempting to have mass combat, then that puts pressure on the design choices/constraints available for the combat, also.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
DCUO has tab-ish style combat, yet it is still THE BEST combat I've ever seen in an MMO. Tab combat doesn't necessarily mean action-less.
Macro-able hotbar combat is what gets repetitive and unfun... the option of how to select your target has very little to do with the actual style, depth, and pace of the combat.
Beleave me, any combat better then TSW with decent story and well made world will be played
You have to play level 60 HM dungeons or PvP to understand TERAs combat. Fighting a fat Kumas at level 22 means nothing, sadly thats about the most that most people experience with regards to TERA before blowing it off.
Regardless, even then, a slow ass Kumas is still more involved than WoW for example. WoW I fight a mob, it hits me I hit it, theres no exception, you stand still both hitting each other constantly....well it doesn't even feel like you're hitting them.
TERA you can dodge so that you never get hit and you can position behind them for more damage, which involves constant movement and actual thinking, regardless of how slow the Kumas is, on top of that you're attacks have weight behind them.
Not to mention unlike games like GW2 or WoW, there's very little passive heal regeneration in TERA...so...making mistakes and getting hit will eventually kill you.
I like fps style combat in my mmorpgs.. Darkfall, Mortal online.. that type of combat..
Saying that i dont mind tab target combat if the game is done right..
Didnt enjoy the combat in GW2 as it was basically just a tab target system, didnt enjoy tera combat because it stopped you moving every time you attacked..
Tab target games I enjoyed.. SWG, EQ1 + 2..
Also enjoyed the system AOC used, shame they didnt use it in TSW..
true true..
Lol he said Secret World which is doing just fine, funny how people think a game fails because it doesn't have 50 million subs, who cares they are making a ton of money and they are up 400% on people playing now. So again what is wrong with Tab target? I for one do not like it, unless itd done right and the game has intersting features which I think PathFinder does, but that is not why a game fails.
Also games do not fail because players say so, the fail if they do not make money, gamers / people today make me laugh !!
I don't care what sort of combat it has, as long as it has meaningful player interaction, player interdependency (see: not soloable all the time) and settlement/area warfare.
Compare TERA to Rift.
Rift can't be called a failure, however TERA can.
A- I dunno about that, EVE is kinda the only one that comes to mind.
B-Again how's Darkfall and Mortal Online doing?
C-See TERA, combat doesnt keep people around.
Rift
Actually it does, TERA started niche and then the poor rate at which content was developed caused a lot of people to leave due to having literally nothing to do at all, when youre title is small to begin(releasing with 11 servers, which was still too many) and then you fail to provide content and you're a typical themepark, you're going to have population problems no matter how good your combat is.
But the people who still are sticking around and still playing are only playing because they can't get over the combat and play other games. Myself included.
On your point about Darkfall and Mortal...those are buggy, poorly developed, horribly managed messes. The combat/sandbox elements have nothing to do with why those are failing, it's the only reason they are still alive. The same goes for TERA, without it's combat it would be shutdown before it even came out due to failing in Korea. Games that develop action combat or sandbox style gameplay seem to always do everything else wrong.
Heres hoping Black Desert can change that, stunning visuals, action combat, sandbox, AAA budget.
With how the game is coming out, I actually prefer it being based on "character" skill and player strategy rather than "player" skill and their twitch speed.
It's pretty stupid when someone's character who is essentially stronger than another loses to the weaker character just because the other player is better. Also, I don't see what's wrong with anyone being able to be good at it. If it was the case where the highest skilled players (rather than characters) dominated, it would no doubt scare away some people.
I like some games to be player skill-based. This game, however, is not one of them.
They haven't even built the combat syste beyond the bare bones. I have looked at everything listened to all the intrviews and there still isnt enough information on how the combat system will work yet folks here are say 'aw I've lost all interest becaue its tab targetting and a few paragraphs later someone else is say aw, I'm giving up on this because it isn't tab targetting.
The only thing I've heard definitively is that the player will have to manage their stamina effectively.
That says nothing positive or negative about tab targetting. It talks about stamina management which is a twist already.
To dream, perhaps to be.
From what I've read soloing will be rare. The devs were warning someone asking about soloability and they said 'don't do that you will die'.
Personally I'd like there to be some solo content outside of crafting, but it doesn't sound like I'll get much of that.
To dream, perhaps to be.
DF and MO are closer to FPSMMOs like Defiance than they are to MMORPGs and I think that is the problem. Some people want an action game where you combine console shooter with RPG where your twitch-skills determine your success. That's fine and can be fun at times, but for Pathfinder I am hoping that they stick to the core of their tabletop RPG where your CHARACTER's skills determine success or failure.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If tera had a shred of substance to its looks and combat the game would be far more popular.
People get sick of the quest hub grind, followed by a few dungeons and one battleground at endgame.
I find the action based combat is a bit more engaging and entertaining, dont really mind tab target..just that system boils down to running the right skill sequence macro. Once you get your skill rotation its pretty much a boring event to encounter player or mob in combat. Dont mind that kind of combat if the games good and theres a lot of complexity to the skill system, character development, and gear however.
From everything Ive read so far, Id say Tab-targeting is pretty likely. Action and twitchy combat is definately out, wich seems to support tab-targeting. Though I suppose it could be some wierd form of true or autotargeting mixed with a slower combat without active blocks and dodges and what not. But that sounds like it would be weird, Imagine playing WoW with everything exaxtly the same but you used true targeting. Better yet, Imagine combat as slow as FFXI yet with true targeting........ this sounds strange, non-traditional, out-of-sync, and unlikely to me.
Other than an extreme likely-hood of tab targeting, the devs desire for a non-actiony/twitchy appraoch and the stamina thing, we dont know a whole lot. We did recently find out that friendly fire was still up in the air though from AoE skills. And we do know that large-scale battles are going to be done in unit formations which will be stronger than individuals not using them, for the purpose of stopping zerging as a good option. So its possible large-scale combat might play sort of like a strategy simulator? IDK for sure its sort of hard to picture what the devs have in mind. Also we arent even sure if there will or will not be auto-attack.
The only other bit of information I know is that they do hope to make a more cerebral and tactical experience. What does this mean? Who freaking knows. BUT what I hope it means is complex tab-target battle that is some awesome combination of chess meets standard MMO, which require reason and situation to determine the use of an action, and not the GCD hell, or twitch based reaction. Maybe something complex like the use of an ability requiring that situation, distance, direction, element type, weapon type, terrain, and stamina all being taken into consideration before you attack or risk failed or unsatisfactory results?
This is a very good post. FYI, they are still hiring for certain positions eg "combat programmer"
Yeah, tab-target is highly likely. I'm sure we'll begin to get more details nearer the "Pit-Fighter" release at the back-end of 2013.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Well TERA is doing amazing these days. Servers stay maxed and they're doing so well they're expanding again. That game is exactly how they promoted it, it's just the slow content updates early on had people confused. Gets updates faster these days though. JS
I will admit that Action-Twitch based combat feels more engaging, but I think fast Tab-targetting games like ArcheAge blur the lines a bit. The combat in that game has sped up so much since early beta that it looks like pure action madness at times.
Tbh, I know this meanders off-topic from combat discussion, but I really really hope PFO skill-training embraces a plethora of a multitude of different so-called "skill" as much as non-combat, indirect-non-combat and combat and more.
If PFO does this, I'll probably not be too judgemental on the combat being tab-target - though I'd hedge by saying the combat for random small groups still needs to be tactical and slow and CEREBRAL. If you forfeit actiony-adrenaline-hit gameplay then the former is a preferrable drug. No drug is no good for the gameplay "addiction" that players need from a great game.
I'm not really sure about tera, it looks like a FPS experience. I prefer the look of firefall and disappointed firefall did not turn out so well yet. I still think if you like mmorpg games you're in it for the character as much as the mechanics of combat. Interested to see what The Repopulation and Camelot Unchained combats turn out like as well.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem